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Author Topic: exBPDw wants me to move back to Midwest and live with me again...so conflicted  (Read 516 times)
sunsetsam

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« on: June 20, 2017, 03:07:16 PM »

My story continues from here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=301168.10... .

About 3 weeks after the divorce in December, and very hostile/abusive text messages (though never NC since I was committed to helping her financially for a while), I broke down and told her how I felt about her deep down. That I still loved her.  That I wanted nothing more than for her to work on her issues and for us to someday try again.  I handwrote a heart-felt, two-page letter that laid out two very important rules: 1) no more raging/abuse towards me; and 2) no more jealousy/hatred of my daughter.  I shared this letter with my T who actually encouraged me to send it to my ex, having told him I had a long conversation with her on the phone where we were both crying over the whole breakup.  Part of my heartache came from knowing that just three weeks after she moved back to the east coast, she was sexting (and I knew that meant slept with) her roommate's married friend. 

In those first couple of months after saying we wanted to work on a relationship again, she said she was committed to going to therapy.  I even flew out East on Valentine's Day weekend and saw her T with her, and was impressed he was hitting on a couple main issues: that she has to learn to accept my daughter and needs to stop drinking (which she started doing... .heavily... .the last month of our marriage in the shadow of the pending divorce). 

Then: three HUGE lies come out. 
1) She swore that she never slept with the roommate's friend, but I saw a text message to another person where she admitted that she had done so (but in the same text message, said she couldn't get over me and it was a mistake to sleep with him).  I guess I understand WHY she lied (she thought I would dump her)... .and maybe it really wasn't my business anyway (we WERE broken up)... .but after being together for almost 4 years and to jump in bed with another guy just three weeks later, that is pretty hurtful to know.
2) She said she was going to her T for her 3rd appointment (with money I gave her to go with), to the point of leaving her house (roommate confirms) and coming back about 90 minutes later, talking to me that evening saying she doesn't really like the T but will talk to me later about what they discussed, etc... .but here's the thing. She never went.  I had to threaten to break up with her unless she admitted what she did (I didn't tell her I knew about not going to the T) and she finally fessed up.
3) She said she wants to see a new therapist... .fine... .and does so.  Goes twice.  Then stops going, saying that "she's not in my insurance anymore."  Only a few months later did she admit that she just didn't have the money to pay her (and still today owes her for the two sessions that she went to).

Still, I ventured on and visited her every month, having nothing but very wonderful times together... .granted, we aren't living together every day, but her rages have essentially vanished (she's been on Abilify since the divorce) and her roommate confirms this.  I did do a surprise visit to her in April, as she tried doing an IOT... .no drinking, daily therapy, etc... .but when I arrived, she was sloppy drunk and by the end of the evening had vomited several times and passed out... .and here I was coming to surprise her as a congratulations for doing such a good job. Ugh.  There are times she still blames me for the divorce, tells me I'm the one who sent her away, etc.  I know that if she were to move back, she'd use those "reasons" against me in an argument, because that truly is how she feels.  She will say she had started going to therapy and taking the Abilify right when I "still" divorced her, but I was already a tree that had been swung at with an axe about 20 times and had started falling over by that point... .and it wasn't like she started taking the meds as soon as she got them (she waited a couple of weeks) or wasn't raging weekly about seeing the psychologist, either... .

So, for the past few months, she has openly told me she wants to move back to the Midwest and live with me again (which, of course, would be on my dime). She ruminates about how wonderful her life was (I bought her her dream house and dream car) and how she just wants us to be a family again.  Her roommate, having had to basically support her for the past few months (she lost her job a few months ago... .not atypical... .and refused to look for ANY job like a retail/service position... .no, it had to be in her field... .and in the meantime, if I couldn't help her out financially, she'd basically need to turn to prostitution! She later admitted to the roommate she was trying to manipulate me with that one)... .well, the roommate decided the $2k/mo rent was too much to bear alone and decided to move onto a boat. Yes, a boat. Much cheaper. Much, MUCH smaller.  And my ex, having no way of supporting herself, has no option (in her mind) other than to live on this boat. 

I last saw her in late May and she asked pointedly to move home (to avoid the boat), and I said I couldn't afford it... .and, well, she cried. A lot.  When I was in the airport, I wrote out a list of items I felt she and I would need to work on if she were to come back:
Excerpt
* We will go to couples therapy every week for the first year and you will separately go to BPD counseling every week for the first year, unless the therapist agrees to stopping earlier. No excuses (distance, lack of free time, etc.)
* Stay on all meds, taking them every day, unless the doctor changes it
* Agree to let me parent, play with, hold, etc. my daughter as I feel appropriate and not get angry if your advice is sometimes not heeded (differing opinion), or get angry if she occassionally interrupts, gets up late, etc.a frequent point of argument during a rage episode
* Share all chores with me and not compare to expectations of my daughter or her household responsibilitiesa frequent point of argument during a rage episode
* no raging - ever - and we agree to make stopping it a priority in our upcoming counseling sessions (both individual and couples) if needed
* find a full-time job and/or 2nd job with insurance that allows us the time for the 2x/week counseling (or, we find and stick with a counselor that works around our schedules)
* we are both committed to being healthy again and be on the same page again with diet, alcohol and exercise... .every therapist said the alcohol needs to stop and I would like a commitment for us both to only drink when we're out for dinner and not drink/bring alcohol in the house, at least not for a while.  I would like us to commit to exercise at least 3x/week together (aerobics, jogging, biking) with no excuses for weather, scenery, etc. I want us both to want to shed our excess pounds
* agree to no defined, short-term timeframe to moving out of the midwest, as I want to stay close to my daughter and my mom a frequent point of argument during a rage episode
* never, ever any straying from each other, physically or emotionally, including never communicating to past lovers for any reason
* We both agree to leave the past in the past, other than when discussing things in therapy
* allow me to manage our money and keep to budgets/allowances she is the most irresponsible person - as it relates to money - that I have ever met

Not surprisingly, she agreed to ALL of these points immediately. And,well, I felt so horrible for her, and I DO love her so very much... .I told her later that week that I would bring her back home so she doesn't have to move onto the boat.

Then... .4 days later... .after two close friends shook their heads in disgust at me and my sister telling me she'd basically disown me for making such a decision... .I started having massive panic attacks.  I retracted my statement and told her I didn't think we were ready, that I felt she needed to be in therapy longer (true) and that I need time to save money to make this work (not true).  She finally came to terms with this but only by hearing the "I have no money to move you" part and disregarding the "you need more time in therapy before coming back" part.  Worse, and what is most troubling... .she tells me repeatedly she IS committed to going to BPD therapy... .for me.  When pressed, she'll say she's doing it for us.  But she readily admits that she does not believe that she needs to be in BPD therapy for herself especially since we are not living together and the "triggers aren't there."  She has a couple of books on DBT and has read them (if that is to be believed, though) and feels that the T only rehashes what she already knows about DBT, and really prefers not to relieve her childhood trauma repeatedly.

So, I'm at a point of making a decision to stay or go. I don't want to keep stringing her along.  I do still love her, but it's hard to say that my passion/lust remains as it was even just a few months ago.  My trust issues in her are worse than ever, especially following a barrage of little-white-lies I have caught her on in the past month, mostly related to how she spends her money, which she will flat-out deny despite evidence on her bank statement! The week before Memorial Day, she started begging me for money saying she was completely broke... .though I had sent $100 the week prior and another $50 shortly thereafter... .and yet, though she had $80 in her account (before I sent ANOTHER $50), she said she had no money for therapy.  That week ALONE she spent $70 on booze and another $70 at the coffeeshop... .all with the money I had sent her... .and though the bank statement shows the facts in black and white, she doubled-down on the little white lies. Whether or not she bought weed (she did), whether she spent way too much on take-out (she did), whether she canceled a trial Amazon video subscription (she didn't), whether she truly had no money to go to therapy (she had $80 the day before and then got a paycheck  the day she was to go)... .these lies, coupled with the huge ones from a few months ago, leave me scared because my heart wants to believe she will stay committed to BPD treatment but my head just says "look at the lies... .over and over... ."

I've summarized the above (and more) in a draft e-mail that I haven't yet sent to her:
*There was dishonesty about roommate's friend, about T#1, about T#2 and continuous little white lies strewn about.   
*Your drinking started getting out of control and you have been told by every psychologist that you have a problem and need to stop. 
*You admitted you will lie to appease me or cover up something you say you may be ashamed of. 
*You have cast aside my suggestions that might help you financially in the interim (applying to retail/service jobs, looking into government assistance) instead suggesting you will turn to prostitution(!).
*I learned about your sugar daddy website profile (which you also initially lied about until I told you I knew your "xxxxx" username), which I grant you occurred prior to us meeting and that you never used... .and of at least three other men you slept with you hadn't mentioned before (including xxxxx, who was another lie when I asked about him during our marriage).  It's almost as if you are a completely different person from the one I met 4 years ago... .right down to no longer keeping vegetarian.
*Most importantly, you do not feel that you need to be in BPD therapy for YOU.  Doing it for me, or for us, is something that my therapist, your therapist, the BPD forums and all the BPD books say is a recipe for therapy not being successful.  If you feel you must do the therapy to be in the relationship ("forced" into it), it is likely to fail... .and our relationship cannot survive that.

Not to mention these thoughts that run through my head:
- Indifference to how she treats the property of others (ex: keeping certain doors open in the house and allowing animals to mess up blankets, guitar amplifiers, carpeting, etc... .she did it with me, she continue doing it with her roommate)
- Indifference to the cost to others of things she owns that she doesn't protect (countless times leaving her sunroof open and it rains, tearing paint off the walls by impatiently removing stubborn tape, scratching up 100-year-old hardwood floor with the dog pen, etc)
- Certain no-win situations leave me walking on eggshells (if I wake up and don't kiss her good morning or say hello, I am being inconsiderate... .but if I do kiss her or say hello and wake her up, I am being inconsiderate)
- How my duaghter acts and how I respond to it always leaves me walking on eggshells
- The fact that I feel I have to have a list of items that she would agree to (inclusive of finding a job & having me help with handling money) is troubling, especially when I consider that from her perspective she would never need to have a list asking me not to talk to ex-lovers, make sure I am always working and make sure I am not going broke and relying on her to help me financially every month.
- I will be responsible for all of the things she isn't planning ahead for... .car repairs, vet emergencies, medical emergencies, phone repairs, laptop repairs, doctor visits, medicine
- she continually disregards common good health practice (seeing a dentist, annual physicals)... .even when rushed to the ER for eye problems, she still falls right back into the practice of leaving daily-wear contacts in her eyes for DAYS at a time!

Sigh... .but she has a good heart. She has a very loving and compassionate side, especially to animals.  She makes me laugh and smile.  She has great taste in music, movies... .she's a great friend (when not lying) and the best lover I could imagine.  She enjoys traveling with me. I don't discount the emotional and verbal abuse I endured, but note that it wasn't continual, mostly in the last few months of the relationship.  But if she isn't committed to therapy for herself, is all of this just doomed?  Is her procrastination, job issues, lack of empathy, etc. all going to remain even if she does keep to her promise of going to therapy for me/us?
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Lucky Jim
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« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2017, 10:13:49 AM »

Hey sunsetsam, If you are seriously considering an all-out recycle after getting divorced from your BPD Ex, then it would seem like there is some unresolved issue that keeps you hanging on.  Do you know what it is?  If not, maybe you could explore why you remain on the line -- "hooked" so-to-speak -- long after others would have moved on.  Presumably you haven't really detached, or haven't figured out why you ended up with a BPD spouse in the first place.  She lied to you about having an affair, and lied to you about seeing a T, yet that doesn't seem to bother you much.  I suggest you take a timeout and sit with your feelings before making any decisions about a recycle.

LuckyJim
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    A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing.
George Bernard Shaw
Lucky Jim
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« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2017, 11:49:35 AM »

Hello again, sunsetsam, Concerning your list of requirements for resuming your r/s, maybe she agreed to all points, but how realistic is it that she will be able to keep her side of the agreement?  Can you implement any of these items with her BEFORE you make a decision, in order to see whether she is serious about them?  Your post talks a lot about her.  What about you?  What would you like to see happen?  What are your gut feelings?  What is the right path for you?  Tough questions, I know.

LuckyJim
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    A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing.
George Bernard Shaw
sunsetsam

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« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2017, 03:03:03 PM »

Hey sunsetsam, If you are seriously considering an all-out recycle after getting divorced from your BPD Ex, then it would seem like there is some unresolved issue that keeps you hanging on.  Do you know what it is?  If not, maybe you could explore why you remain on the line -- "hooked" so-to-speak -- long after others would have moved on.  Presumably you haven't really detached, or haven't figured out why you ended up with a BPD spouse in the first place.  She lied to you about having an affair, and lied to you about seeing a T, yet that doesn't seem to bother you much.  I suggest you take a timeout and sit with your feelings before making any decisions about a recycle.

I guess for me, it's that she really is someone that I enjoy spending time with, have many things in common with (vintage country music, '60s pop and psychedelic music, traveling around the U.S., vintage clothes & antiques, old cars, etc.), and, to me, she is gorgeous and an incredible lover.  Being in my early 40s, twice divorced with a child from the 1st marriage, I guess I feel that I don't want to (a) risk being alone due to that baggage and (b) risk losing someone that is otherwise a caring person who has a chance to get better. 

She didn't have an affair when we were married... .after we divorced she started the sexting with the other guy and spent an evening with him.  I honestly don't believe she ever was unfaithful while we were together.  That said, she admitted to being unfaithful twice in her previous relationship (which lasted about 8 years) and lied about both affairs to her then-boyfriend, just as she lied to me about sleeping with the guy she started sexting after our divorce. That lie, and the one about not seeing the T... .well... .that is what has me conflicted. It bothers me a LOT. If she can lie about those things, she can lie about anything on that list I sent her that she agreed to.


Hello again, sunsetsam, Concerning your list of requirements for resuming your r/s, maybe she agreed to all points, but how realistic is it that she will be able to keep her side of the agreement?  Can you implement any of these items with her BEFORE you make a decision, in order to see whether she is serious about them?  Your post talks a lot about her.  What about you?  What would you like to see happen?  What are your gut feelings?  What is the right path for you?  Tough questions, I know.

I know that it is entirely unrealistic to expect her to keep to everything on that list and, unfortunately, almost everything on it would require us living together for her to prove that she can keep to it.  The only exception is her seeing her T, which she continues to do (so far), though that has been on and off.

My heart says she is hurting more than I am and needs help, and at least admits to having BPD and knowing she is partly to blame.  But she has turned to drinking nightly (and doesn't hide it or lie about it to me... .she confesses it embarassingly) and has said she doesn't need/want to see a T for herself, she'll do it because I require it. So, my head says move on and hope for the best, even though she's on Abilify and the rages have seemingly stopped.   I remember what she's capable of.  I know she will be angry at times and worry she'll revert back to old ways, but this time now say "well, YOU divorced ME" and "YOU sent ME away... .nothing I ever did to you was as bad as what you did to ME".

I guess if I knew she could come back and, if it didn't work out, she could just move somewhere else... .I'd be more willing to give it a chance.  But I am petrified of the thought of her raging, breaking promises, not working, me being resentful, her being jealous of my daughter, etc. all over again, even though she is seemingly much better right now, and not being able to move her out since she'd be 1,000 miles away from anyone else.
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Lucky Jim
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« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2017, 04:33:52 PM »

Excerpt
I guess if I knew she could come back and, if it didn't work out, she could just move somewhere else... .I'd be more willing to give it a chance.  But I am petrified of the thought of her raging, breaking promises, not working, me being resentful, her being jealous of my daughter, etc. all over again, even though she is seemingly much better right now, and not being able to move her out since she'd be 1,000 miles away from anyone else.

Hey SS, These strike me as valid concerns.  What makes you think that, six months post-divorce, she suddenly has "a chance to get better"?  I remain unconvinced that her half-hearted efforts to see a T represent any significant change on her part.  As you note, she thinks she doesn't need a T and/or doesn't want to see one, which is quite typical for a pwBPD.  What can you actually point to that shows progress on her part?  How do you know that you won't end up right back where you started, except with more pain down the line? 

Whether to get back on the BPD roller coaster is, of course, your decision.  I did it myself, and paid dearly for ignoring my gut feelings.  What are your gut feelings?

LuckyJim










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    A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing.
George Bernard Shaw
sunsetsam

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« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2017, 07:21:12 AM »

Hey SS, These strike me as valid concerns.  What makes you think that, six months post-divorce, she suddenly has "a chance to get better"?  I remain unconvinced that her half-hearted efforts to see a T represent any significant change on her part.  As you note, she thinks she doesn't need a T and/or doesn't want to see one, which is quite typical for a pwBPD.  What can you actually point to that shows progress on her part?  How do you know that you won't end up right back where you started, except with more pain down the line? 

Whether to get back on the BPD roller coaster is, of course, your decision.  I did it myself, and paid dearly for ignoring my gut feelings.  What are your gut feelings?

I guess I feel the "chance to get better" is that she is on Abilify and the raging has largely, if not completely, subsided. But, I realize I am perhaps pinning false hope on Abilify alone, since she doesn't believe she needs a T for herself... .and she now has a nightly drinking problem (wine, whiskey) and yesterday admitted to me that when she is at work she looks forward to getting home so she can have a drink.  She doesn't feel this is a "problem" since it makes her feel better and it's not hurting anyone.

I guess the only progress I have seen is intermittent at best... .staying on Abilify (consistently) and seeing a therapist (on and off), but this is then tempered with a new drinking problem and admission that she doesn't believe she needs to be in therapy.

My gut feelings tell me to just end it.  I'll miss the friend underneath... .I'll miss the gorgeous female that was an amazing lover... .I'll be scared of being alone and wonder if I did the wrong thing by not bringing her back and at least giving her that 2nd chance to prove herself. So, despite my gut feeling, my head counters it with all these other thoughts.
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Gumiho
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« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2017, 09:40:28 AM »

Sounds a bit like that's not the 2nd chance but the xth one~ So chances are high for a relapse... .if so be prepared. Just follow your heart.

EDIT: also I'd like to add that pwBPD seem always prone to relapse even if treated. Judging on what I've read. It's about how we deal with it I think.
In my case, she will most likely never be "cured"... If you can embrace that... .
If I fed my gf such a huge list of conditions she'd lock up straight... no offense and I can relate to your conflict. Maybe you could narrow down the list to one or two points (that put the others into a nutshell)? Easier to digest ^^
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jhkbuzz
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« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2017, 12:05:16 PM »

Excerpt

My gut feelings tell me to just end it.  I'll miss the friend underneath... .I'll miss the gorgeous female that was an amazing lover... .I'll be scared of being alone and wonder if I did the wrong thing by not bringing her back and at least giving her that 2nd chance to prove herself. So, despite my gut feeling, my head counters it with all these other thoughts.

Here's the thing to think about: her actions are your reality. Not her words, her actions.

What has she "proven" to you with her actions?

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sunsetsam

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« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2017, 01:00:24 PM »

Well, her actions last night sealed the deal for me.

The (married w/kid) guy she slept with right after the divorce, which is her roommate's best friend? Well... .his wife kicked him out.  My ex had promised me that she would never communicate with him and had him blocked on FB.  Well, yesterday for the first time since Jan (that I know of), he contacted her.  They proceeded to text for the next two hours AND have a 30 minute phone conversation. 

This guy could have called one of his friends, a relative... .instead, he contacts HER, a girl he slept with once and hasn't had communications with since. And she broke a promise to me that she'd never talk to this ex-lover.  I told her that this is yet another breach of trust, and I further said "I'll bet you deleted all the texts already, too, right?" to which she said "well, yes... .they're trash... .but nothing inappropriate was said".

I don't even care WHAT was said anymore. She should have immediately told him "hey, I'm sorry but us chatting is inappropriate, especially considering sunsetsam's feelings and that I promised him we wouldn't communicate anymore." But no, she said she felt bad for him and that it was the least she could do since he is helping her roommate and her move next week (remember, he's the roommate's best friend).

So, I told her this was the last straw. I can't believe anything she says, she will break a promise if it is justified in her head... .and obviously this ex-lover's feelings were more important than the pain this would cause me. So... .I broke it off. I blocked her.

And now I'm dying inside. :~(
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jhkbuzz
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« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2017, 01:20:10 PM »

Believe me when I say I and everyone on these boards knows how PAINFUL this is for you. I know it's little consolation for you, but I'm sorry and I'm sending tons of virtual hugs.    

You have taken the first step - of honestly looking at her actions and what they mean - and deciding you are worth more. And you are WORTH MORE. No matter how much you twist yourself inside out to make things work, a r/s with a disordered person will always be brutally crazy-making until THEY take steps to heal.  There's nothing you can do to change that fact.

I can promise you that it gets better. I am almost 3 years post b/u from an 8 year r/s that I thought would last the rest of my life. I, like you, decided that I couldn't living with the lying and infidelity and to this day I know it was the right decision to make for me. I was a mess at the beginning, questioning myself at every turn, wondering how I could live without her, and I'm telling you, life is good and I'm happy.  I got into therapy and figured out why I was choosing disordered life partners and did the hard work of healing - and now I'm happy.

You'll get there, I promise.

I read a quote at a very low point after my b/u:

I should have loved myself with the love I gave to you.

Think about that for a while. Meditate on it. Keep yourself safe, turn to friends and family for support, and start forging a new path forward when you're ready.

We're here for you.
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sunsetsam

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« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2017, 09:14:31 AM »

Believe me when I say I and everyone on these boards knows how PAINFUL this is for you. I know it's little consolation for you, but I'm sorry and I'm sending tons of virtual hugs.    

You have taken the first step - of honestly looking at her actions and what they mean - and deciding you are worth more. And you are WORTH MORE. No matter how much you twist yourself inside out to make things work, a r/s with a disordered person will always be brutally crazy-making until THEY take steps to heal.  There's nothing you can do to change that fact.

I can promise you that it gets better. I am almost 3 years post b/u from an 8 year r/s that I thought would last the rest of my life. I, like you, decided that I couldn't living with the lying and infidelity and to this day I know it was the right decision to make for me. I was a mess at the beginning, questioning myself at every turn, wondering how I could live without her, and I'm telling you, life is good and I'm happy.  I got into therapy and figured out why I was choosing disordered life partners and did the hard work of healing - and now I'm happy.

You'll get there, I promise.

I read a quote at a very low point after my b/u:

I should have loved myself with the love I gave to you.

Think about that for a while. Meditate on it. Keep yourself safe, turn to friends and family for support, and start forging a new path forward when you're ready.

We're here for you.

Thanks - your words (and those of the others above) have really helped me a lot.  I'm very angry that I let myself let things go on so long.  When she did the first lie back in Feb/Mar about not seeing her therapist, that's when MY therapist told me: "RUN."  I am on this board because I really was conflicted about her getting help with a T, since she said it wasn't help she wanted for herself.  But the lies... .I guess I wasn't weighting them as heavily. But letting her one-night-stand from five months ago reach out to her has just completely gutted me.  It was a broken promise. Heck, this falls right under one of the list items! never, ever any straying from each other, physically or emotionally, including never communicating to past lovers for any reason."  Why she would do that, knowing I had nightmares about what the may have done together... .literally, I would not sleep thinking about her with this guy. And she knew that it bothered me a lot, even though it happened while we were apart.

I've felt for a few months, based on a couple of other things that happened which raised my eyebrow, that she didn't really care to completely keep this guy completely out of the picture.  I could be wrong. Part of me wants to tell this guy all about her actions... .her deviant past, her raging, her promiscuity, her lies, her manipulation.  Part of me wants to tell this guy's wife that he cheated on her with my ex. 

I am both near tears and near punching a wall. At work and trying not to cry... .
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jhkbuzz
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« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2017, 10:40:54 AM »


I am both near tears and near punching a wall. At work and trying not to cry... .

I understand.

If you've never familiarized yourself with the five stages of grief, you will want to. I was crazily emotionally dysregulated at the end of my r/s (and I'm not an overly-emotional person at all)  - so understanding these stages of grief were helpful to me. They made me feel less crazy.

The five stages of grief are:

Denial
This is when we and our partner are on different page about our commitments to the relationship. This stage is filled with disbelief and denial. 
In the Kübler-Ross model, if your partner has died you still expect him to walk through the door.  The equivalent in a relationship breakup is that your partner is drifting away or has broken-up and you still think that he/she doesn't mean it - that it is a ploy or a reaction. 
Often in this stage we are engaged in relationship struggles and are expecting our partner to respond in the way that someone in a relationship would respond. However, they are in a very different, less caring place.  We are confused, hurt, put off by their behavior.

Anger/Resentment
Anger often the reaction to being hurt and/or fearful, and helpless to do anything about it. The greater the loss, the greater the reaction.
In the Kübler-Ross model, you might feel anger at your deceased partner for dying (Kübler-Ross model).  In the relationship, you may feel anger at your partner for asking for a divorce and breaking up the family. You may feel anger at your friends or family for supporting her and not you. You may be angry for being betrayed.  You may be angry for not being idealized any longer (ego wound). 
Anger is a very complex pat of grieving - many of us stumble in this stage with either unhealthy anger (misdirected, trapping) or no anger (no release).
We need to determine why we're angry and focus our feeling on the true issues - if not, anger can imprison people. 

Bargaining
You try to negotiate to change the situation.
In the Kübler-Ross model, if you've lost a spouse to death you might bargain with God, "I'll be a better person if you'd just bring him back". In a relationship, you might approach your partner who is asking for the break-up and say "If you'll stay, I'll change". 
Bargaining is that stage of the break-up when you’re trying to make deals and compromises. It’s when you start talking about how an open relationship might be a possibility or a long-distance thing could work. It’s when you say to your partner, “if you just did this then I could do that and it would work”. It’s when you say to yourself that you’ll do x, y, z to be a better spouse so that the relationship doesn’t have to end.

Depression
The is the "it's really over" stage.
After all of the denial and the anger and the bargaining have been done and we realize that things really are starting to end and we become depressed. We fell helpless and powerless and overwhelmed with sadness about the loss that we are experiencing.  We realize the situation isn't going to change. The death or break-up happened and there is nothing to bring the other person back.  Acknowledgment of the situation often brings depression.
Acknowledgment often starts the serious process of us trying to understand what happened.

Acceptance
Acceptance is a final stage when we have finally sorting out what happened, accepted it and are more interested in moving forward than looking back. 
Acceptance can take a lot of time and a lot of processing. It involves understanding the situation, understand our role / understand their role, understanding what can be learned, and letting go / moving forward. 

Note: Each person mourns a loss differently.  You may not experience these stages in one fluid order. You may go through some of the stages more than once. Sometimes during the bargaining stages we recycle the relationship. Or an event will trigger us to experience one of these stages again - like hearing your ex-partner is to remarry.


I can see in your posts where you have moved back and forth through the first four stages. It's important to recognize that these stages are not linear - I went back and forth through many of them.  I am now in the acceptance stage.

Please be careful about the decisions you make while in these stages - especially the "anger" stage. NOTHING GOOD will come of approaching the "married w/kid" guy to talk trash about your ex. More than likely it will wound you even further.

Therapy was invaluable to me as I went through these five stages. For the first year I spent a lot of time talking about her - but gradually the focus shifted to myself - and it was a relief when it did. Why? Because I am the only person I have any control over. I examined old, unhealed wounds, became more aware of why I have repeatedly chosen disordered partners - it was a very worthwhile experience and I strongly suggest it, if you can.

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BeagleGirl
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« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2017, 11:19:43 AM »

I want to offer my hugs as well.             

I think "gut wrenching" is a very good description of the feelings these situations inspire. 

It sounds like your resolve is pretty firm right now.  If you are like me, it doesn't take much for you to be nudged back to empathy for your pwBPD and the desire to rescue can become the drug that you take to ease the pain.  I think that sometimes I (we?) mistake that feeling of need to rescue/relief when we do rescue as love.  I'm trying to confront (with help from my therapist) the dysfunction of what she refers to as my "over-functioning" and how it ends up hurting everyone involved.

So I think I'll share some of the things I have to remind myself of to keep from going back to my BPDh right now (we have been separated since the end of January and are currently working through a legal separation).

If I rescue him HE won't know that he is capable of taking care of himself.  He will remain emotionally crippled because the "muscles" that are there and within his control to use are atrophied.

If I rescue him I won't know that he is capable of taking care of himself.  I won't be able to trust him to support me, because I don't even view him as capable of supporting himself.  That goes for all aspects of our relationship - emotional, financial, physical, parenting, etc. 

If I rescue him MY CHILDREN won't know that he is capable of taking care of himself.  They will have a distorted view of what a relationship looks like and may recreate the same dynamics in their own relationships because it's what is "normal".  Or they may avoid relationships in an attempt to avoid the pain/helplessness they associate with relationships.

If I rescue him HE will likely never be someone I, our children, or he can be proud of.

If I rescue him HE will not appreciate what I have sacrificed to do so.  It will never be enough to prove my love for him, because he does not see himself as worthy of love.

There are a lot of other reasons not to rescue.  Maybe you can see some in your situation that I haven't listed that might help us both to recognize.

I know what it is to give up on the dream of loving someone enough to walk the road of growth and change with them.  I know the fear of never seeing the person you know your loved one could be blossom.  I know the guilt that is attached to "leaving them to their own devices".  I'm trying to trade those hopes/dreams/fears in for a vision of what could be if I refuse to rescue. 

I have a dream of BPDh a year from now who has learned that he can support himself, our children, and me.  He has stopped seeing himself as the victim of his disorder/his upbringing/my "cruelty"/circumstances and is an "over-comer".  He no longer has to carry the shame of knowing that every item he purchases as a gift for me is being purchased with money that I have given him.  He knows that what he offers me is more than saving our children from the pain of divorce and promises that "it will be better" that he knows as well as I do that he has been unable to fulfill.  I have a dream of being chosen, again, by him; this time as a man who knows he could live without me, could maybe even find someone "better".  I dream of him being the person I can trust and rely on (not just hope for) to help me weather the storms of life.

That dream may never come true, even if I hold firm and refuse to rescue.  I will eventually come to accept that.  In the meantime, I cling to the knowledge that 22 years of rescuing, nagging, luring, etc have not worked towards that dream.  I cling to the wisdom of those who have been trained by books and/or life that tell me that stepping back is my best hope for realizing that dream.

So in those times when you don't think you can envision a life without your pwBPD, can you envision a BETTER future than bringing a broken and helpless woman to a place that she doesn't want to live and hope that she will be willing/able to abide by the rules you have laid out, or that you will have the strength to "abandon" her if she doesn't?
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sunsetsam

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« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2017, 01:27:52 PM »

I can see in your posts where you have moved back and forth through the first four stages. It's important to recognize that these stages are not linear - I went back and forth through many of them.  I am now in the acceptance stage.

Please be careful about the decisions you make while in these stages - especially the "anger" stage. NOTHING GOOD will come of approaching the "married w/kid" guy to talk trash about your ex. More than likely it will wound you even further.

Therapy was invaluable to me as I went through these five stages. For the first year I spent a lot of time talking about her - but gradually the focus shifted to myself - and it was a relief when it did. Why? Because I am the only person I have any control over. I examined old, unhealed wounds, became more aware of why I have repeatedly chosen disordered partners - it was a very worthwhile experience and I strongly suggest it, if you can.

You are quite right... .I have bounced through the first four stages but never been fully in the "acceptance" stage.  Though I feel I'm closer than I've ever been.  I've been in therapy continually for almost a year, and the current T has told me several times to "run" and countering his general policy of not telling his clients what to do.  He felt that strongly that she could not and would not get better based on past experience.  I do feel that I mostly spend my time talking about her.

Her past, in particular, is enraging and jealous-inducing... .and in some ways was a both a huge turn-on  and turn-off. By the time she was about 23 she had been with about a dozen men, including:
*a therapist/doctor who told her she needed a getaway... .and she then went away with him and slept with him several times. He was in his 50s. She was about 22.
*a professor-friend of the above therapist/doctor... .the dr introduced her to this 62-YEAR-OLD man, thinking they'd get along. She slept with him. Again, 22.
*a fling with a married man in his 40s she met on the train (he was traveling in town for business) that lasted about a year or so... .she'd meet at his hotel every time he came to town
*a fling with a married man visiting from Europe that she met in the sex shop outside the aforementioned hotel before meeting the aforementioned married man

And countless other men that she would sext and/or meet and then sleep with on the first date.  As she was raped continually by her grandpa when she was only 7 or 8, I guess I rationalized that she did these things as an empowerment method, ingrained as part of her PTSD & BPD.  But, a lot of guys she was with were her age, too... .about a dozen or more... .and in almost every case she jumps right into bed with who she meets. She's very open about being sexual, and to me was a "10" both in looks and intimacy.  I think this is what I've held onto more than anything which is what's made it hard to break it off with her, especially considering I was married before (15 years) to a woman that I was not very sexually attracted to and who had ZERO sex drive.  My exBPDw was, from a sex standpoint, like something out of a romance novel. And we did have a lot in common, had a lot of great times together and, to my knowledge, she was completely faithful up until I threatened divorce and she started messaging an ex-lover that I had specifically told her I never wanted her to talk to again (as he had written her very inappropriate things early in our relationship). 

If you are like me, it doesn't take much for you to be nudged back to empathy for your pwBPD and the desire to rescue can become the drug that you take to ease the pain.  I think that sometimes I (we?) mistake that feeling of need to rescue/relief when we do rescue as love. 

If I rescue him HE won't know that he is capable of taking care of himself.  He will remain emotionally crippled because the "muscles" that are there and within his control to use are atrophied.

If I rescue him I won't know that he is capable of taking care of himself.  I won't be able to trust him to support me, because I don't even view him as capable of supporting himself.  That goes for all aspects of our relationship - emotional, financial, physical, parenting, etc. 

If I rescue him HE will likely never be someone I, our children, or he can be proud of.

If I rescue him HE will not appreciate what I have sacrificed to do so.  It will never be enough to prove my love for him, because he does not see himself as worthy of love.

I know what it is to give up on the dream of loving someone enough to walk the road of growth and change with them.  I know the fear of never seeing the person you know your loved one could be blossom.  I know the guilt that is attached to "leaving them to their own devices".  I'm trying to trade those hopes/dreams/fears in for a vision of what could be if I refuse to rescue. 

So in those times when you don't think you can envision a life without your pwBPD, can you envision a BETTER future than bringing a broken and helpless woman to a place that she doesn't want to live and hope that she will be willing/able to abide by the rules you have laid out, or that you will have the strength to "abandon" her if she doesn't?

Yes, I fully realize, though not readily admit, that my exBPDw is broken, helpless, addicted and really DIDN'T want to live in the Midwest (despite saying how she loves it NOW because it's where I am)... .and that my hope of her "sticking with the program" would be false hope for the most part.  The biggest reason I didn't bring her back was on having the strength to kick her out of the house if it didn't work out. 

But I guess I always felt that if I didn't rescue her, she'd just jump onto the bed of the next guy and at that point it would be over... .and in her mind, it would be my fault that I pushed her away.  In fact, that is exactly how she feels right now! I didn't move her back to the Midwest and she has to move onto this tiny boat next week... .and meanwhile, her fling from Jan. is around and his wife is kicking him out and he remembers how easy she was, soo... .he texts and she feels justified in texting back.  And screw me, because it's my fault she's stuck out there, I'm the one who divorced her, I'm the one who sent her away to the East coast, I'm the one that won't be there to help her move whereas Mr. Fling will... .

It's sad that I still check the phone log and see that all she did today was text him back and forth. After I told her it was over, I should be done. I shouldn't even care! But it's like seeing the knife in my heart and I just want to dig it in deeper.  That or I want to feel more justified that in her mind, I wasn't someone she really "loved"... .I was a wallet with a penis and that was all that mattered.

Right now, I feel like a jerk and utter garbage.
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« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2017, 10:13:06 AM »

Excerpt
Right now, I feel like a jerk and utter garbage.

Hey SS, It's good to acknowledge your feelings, but don't beat yourself up!  The goal, I suggest, is to learn to love and accept yourself, just the way you are.  Put yourself first, for a change.  I suspect that you judge yourself harshly -- do you?  You're human, and I am, too, so give yourself a break.

LuckyJim
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    A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing.
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sunsetsam

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« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2017, 03:18:37 PM »

Thank you, Jim... .you're right... .it's just very hard right now. I gave her everything and in the end I wind up alone and with my heart completely ripped out.

Of course, now she's begging me to call her, constantly writing and pleading for another change, apologizing, crying, begging me to forgive her... .even suggesting she have Mr. Fling call ME to tell me that there was nothing inappropriate being texted between them (!)... .but, this being a recycle, I've heard all of this before.  She's very convincing, and I very much want to believe she really sees how broken she is and that she needs help.  But I know if I cave, she'll be back to all the same b.s. in record time and it would be like none of this ever happened.

Thanks for listening... .just knowing others are out there who care... .well, it means more to me than words can express.
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Lucky Jim
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« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2017, 03:36:53 PM »

Talk is cheap, sunsetsam, needless to say.  Get ready for a dose of F-O-G (fear, obligation and guilt), which is how those w/BPD attempt to manipulate a Non.  What has really changed?  Not much, except that she's under medication, as far as you know.  Presumably you also know that there is no accepted prescription for the treatment of BPD.  Now is a good time to back off and let the dust settle.  In the meantime, I predict that she will turn up the heat on you.  Suggest you decline to participate in that process.

LuckyJim
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    A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing.
George Bernard Shaw
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