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Author Topic: How to erase this mark?  (Read 438 times)
Insom
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« on: May 27, 2017, 10:36:59 AM »

There was this time when my BPD-ex told me he wanted to mark me with a tattoo to show other men he possessed me. This was before tattoos were a thing and struck me as transgressive and creepy. It's been over twenty years since our last contact.  Perplexingly, the subject of him is up for me right now with me going through an intense period of remembering and thinking about his role in my past.  So, apparently he left a psychic mark even though I didn't let him mark me physically.

•  Why is this up for me right now?  Is this my time in life for dealing with undealt with stuff from my past?  What I am supposed to do with this stuff?  Is it indulgent of me to dwell on these memories?  (FWIW, I seem to be going through a healing process right now with an old injury and chronic pain resolving.  Is this part of that process?)

•  I am in a happy marriage.  But even if I wasn't, I wouldn't view my BPD-ex as a viable or attractive romantic partner.  Yet I still feel bonded to him.  How do I break this unwanted bond?

•  I have heard loud and clear from you all (and agree) that reaching out to him for resolution is a terrible idea.  At this same time, I feel like facing him has potential to diminish these persistent thoughts?  Over the years my memories of this person have become this looming specter.  It's like I'm a kid afraid of the boogeyman and want to turn the light on in the room so I can see there are no monsters in the closet.  Is there a way to vanquish these thoughts without involving him?  I think I know they are about me and not him.  Do I need to see the actual person to get that emotionally?

•  For years I had this infrequent recurring dream about my BPD-ex that was characterized by yearning. Now the dreams are coming more frequently and are more like nightmares:  He is stalking or hunting me like a villain in a horror flick and I wake up terrified.  Or I dream I'm confronting him.  I don't know what this all means but something is changing.

•  I have googled him and looked at a few social media profiles am now freaked out that he is somehow going to know this and take it as an invitation.  It scares me to write to you here because I worry that he can sense that I'm grappling with memories of him.

This is my third question for the forum.  I've already received some excellent feedback here - write about the issue, turn your questions inward, don't reach out to contact - that I agree with and am doing.  But still seem to need to talk more about this with all of you.

It is my goal to finish detaching from this person.

Thoughts?
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schwing
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« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2017, 02:45:57 PM »

Hi Insom,

•  Why is this up for me right now?  Is this my time in life for dealing with undealt with stuff from my past?  What I am supposed to do with this stuff?  Is it indulgent of me to dwell on these memories?  (FWIW, I seem to be going through a healing process right now with an old injury and chronic pain resolving.  Is this part of that process?)

I don't know what's going on in your life right now that might be resonating with the memories of your past BPD loved one.  But I'll tell you about my experience with my BPD loved one and what I've learned about myself during the times when I found myself dwelling on thoughts of her.  Hopefully some of what I write will help you work through your experience in some way.

I had broken up with my BPD loved one for about decade before I found this website. During that time I had several significant relationships and later got married and had kids.  None of those past relationships "haunted" me in the way that my BPD relationship continued to haunt me, which is what motivated me to find resources like this website (and individual therapy).

What I eventually realized was thoughts about my BPD loved one, were my "canary in a coal mine" for my emotional health.  For various reasons, especially because my parents are both disordered in different ways (mom is BPD, dad is npd), I'd never learned (through my parents) any healthy examples of emotional self care; at least with respect to the interaction of close family members.  Before my BPD relationship, I hadn't even a basic understanding of how the manner in which I interacted with my family was detrimental to my own emotional health.  Part of the reason was a deep degree of denial that family like in my family of origin was dysfunctional.  After my BPD loved one, I had someone to whom it was acceptable (to me) to attribute my unhappiness.

Later, I started to recognize and accept how my BPD relationship mirrored some of the dynamic I had with my mother.  But I had to unravel the way I interacted with my exBPD before I could see how similar dynamics applied to my mother and family.  So part of my time spent here was to work through my dysfunction with my exBPDgf, which allowed me to also start working through my dysfunction with my family of origin (FoO).

Before this realization,  I think whenever I was unhappy about something that was going on in my extended family (that I wasn't even consciously aware was because of my family), I expressed it by "thinking about" my BPD loved one.

I wonder in your case, when you "indulge" on your old memories, is this a kind of similar projection or displacement?  Maybe something about what motivated you to start or continue your BPD relationship is in some way true about your life now.

•  I am in a happy marriage.  But even if I wasn't, I wouldn't view my BPD-ex as a viable or attractive romantic partner.  Yet I still feel bonded to him.  How do I break this unwanted bond?

It might help for you to understand the nature of why you still feel bonded to your BPD loved one?

What made you feel bonded to him when you were still together?  Did this bond exist in the beginning of your relationship?  Or did it develop on after spending some time with him?

And even though you might intellectually realize that the reasons why you feel/felt bonded to him are unhealthy or dysfunction, it doesn't mean these feelings don't exist.  You can learn something intellectually and still not "accept" it emotionally.  I think when we resolve our emotions, that's when we truly "accept" something.

•  I have heard loud and clear from you all (and agree) that reaching out to him for resolution is a terrible idea.  At this same time, I feel like facing him has potential to diminish these persistent thoughts? 

If your ex is truly disordered and has not recovered from his disorder, there is very little chance that he can deliberately help you find closure.  My guess is he will either stay completely disengaged from you, or else he will pull you back into his orbit to suit his own needs.  Unrecovered, I don't think he would ever have sufficient objectivity to help you.

Over the years my memories of this person have become this looming specter.  It's like I'm a kid afraid of the boogeyman and want to turn the light on in the room so I can see there are no monsters in the closet.  Is there a way to vanquish these thoughts without involving him?  I think I know they are about me and not him.  Do I need to see the actual person to get that emotionally?

Try this thought out:

What if what you need from him is to feel that you've been heard, that he understand that in the aftermath of your relationship, he hurt you and he feels deeply sorry for how he has hurt you.  And the reasons why he hurt you have nothing to do with who you are, they had everything to do with his disorder.  As a person, you did not deserve to be be hurt like that.  You deserved to be treated with compassion and dignity.

Now, if he is still disordered, then my guess is that his (distorted) memory of you is that you were the one who abandoned him.  That you had always planned to betray him and if only he had known, he would have never had trusted you to be in a relationship with you in the first place.

Can you see that if these two ideas are true, then you might be hoping to squeeze water from a rock?

Best wishes,

Schwing
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Insom
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« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2017, 11:46:23 AM »

Thank you, Schwing.  I read your post slowly and in chunks to absorb everything.  Later I may have more to say but right now feeling grateful for your insights and sitting with them. 
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« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2017, 07:42:15 PM »

OK, I am still processing but wanted to thank you especially for this:

Excerpt
What I eventually realized was thoughts about my BPD loved one, were my "canary in a coal mine" for my emotional health.

There's so much I can relate to here I almost don't know where to begin.  But in a nutshell, I've sensed for a while that there was a link between my relationship with my family of origin and the relationship I had with my PBD-ex.  And more recently I've wondered if NPD or other disorder is part of my family's history going back generations.  I can identify narcissistic and co-dependent traits in my own behavior and am working on weeding them out.  But have yet to take the next step which I would guess is just understanding what my basic emotional needs are as a human being and how to satisfy them?  You used the term emotional self care which I like a lot.  Thank you. 

And yes, there is indeed stuff going on in my extended family that likely raised these memories that I have no idea how to help resolve or even what my role is.  In the past, my BPD-ex provided relief (or at least seemed to).  He was my escape hatch and an ally.  But I'm wondering now if, with him, I just jumped from the frying pan into the fire?

Excerpt
What made you feel bonded to him when you were still together?  Did this bond exist in the beginning of your relationship?  Or did it develop on after spending some time with him?

Does it mean something different whether the bond was immediate or formed over time?  (FWIW, ours formed over time.  We didn't date in a traditional sense.  It's more like I participated in a series of escapades with him and each one increased the bond.)

Excerpt
And even though you might intellectually realize that the reasons why you feel/felt bonded to him are unhealthy or dysfunction, it doesn't mean these feelings don't exist.  You can learn something intellectually and still not "accept" it emotionally.  I think when we resolve our emotions, that's when we truly "accept" something.

Would that this were easy, right?  It's like I'm getting these partial hits of insight and understanding that aren't complete.

Excerpt
If your ex is truly disordered and has not recovered from his disorder, there is very little chance that he can deliberately help you find closure.  My guess is he will either stay completely disengaged from you, or else he will pull you back into his orbit to suit his own needs.

OK, I hear you.  Thanks for this.  (It's been a big curiosity of mine, how is he now?  Who is he now?  How would he react?)  Yes, he was diagnosed BPD while we were together.  We've been out of contact for a very long time, and while I have no way to truly assess, it's my sense that he is still disordered, but has found some stability which I wouldn't want to disrupt. 






 
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« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2017, 08:53:21 PM »

And yes, there is indeed stuff going on in my extended family that likely raised these memories that I have no idea how to help resolve or even what my role is.  In the past, my BPD-ex provided relief (or at least seemed to).  He was my escape hatch and an ally.  But I'm wondering now if, with him, I just jumped from the frying pan into the fire?

My relationship with my BPDgf did also feel like an escape from pain and discontent that I didn't understand, nor did I attribute to my disordered family of origin (FoO) until later.  In retrospect, I think for part of me, it was a second chance to win over the love of a woman who behaved in a very similar manner to my mother (i.e., win the love of my mother).  Later I realized/accepted that neither my BPD ex nor my BPD mother are capable of the kind of love I wanted/needed from them.  I think when I accepted this, and realized that this was at the core of my own hurt, then I was able to start healing.

Does it mean something different whether the bond was immediate or formed over time?  (FWIW, ours formed over time.  We didn't date in a traditional sense.  It's more like I participated in a series of escapades with him and each one increased the bond.)

I wonder if when the bond is immediate, then the choice that you make to bond with this person is subconscious.  For me this was the case.  I did not connect very easily to women.  But I desperately wanted a connection.  I depended on the "right chemistry" to decide who I would be with.  Yet I think what was really going on in my psyche was I kept selecting based on what felt "right" or familiar, or comfortable.  And what was familiar and comfortable was the kind of rapport I had with my BPD mother.  So for the longest time, I found myself gravitating towards BPD women.

If your bond formed over time, I wonder if it might be worthwhile to consider if not some kinds of events reinforced your connection with him.  Not the kind of reasonable events like those leading to developing familiarity such as by spending more time together, but rather unreasonable events that might speak to any dysfunctional family interactions of your past.

For me, my BPD mother was a consistent BPD waif.  And whenever my BPD gf behaved in waif-like manner, I responded.  I didn't realized my mother was waif-like until I realized that my exgf was waif-like.  Then it clicked.

OK, I hear you.  Thanks for this.  (It's been a big curiosity of mine, how is he now?  Who is he now?  How would he react?)  Yes, he was diagnosed BPD while we were together.  We've been out of contact for a very long time, and while I have no way to truly assess, it's my sense that he is still disordered, but has found some stability which I wouldn't want to disrupt.  

You might consider redirecting this curiosity.  When you wonder, how is he?  Change the question to: how are you?

I don't know if this is the case for you.  But for me, for a long time, I didn't really know how to evaluate myself from an emotional standpoint.  I saw myself as a binary happy or unhappy.  And when I wasn't doing so well, I was more often unhappy.  I didn't see that when I wasn't happy, I was staying up late hours, sleeping in the morning, unmotivated.  I was depressed for long periods of time without knowing or caring why.  And didn't know the first thing about how to unravel the depression.  This succinctly describes my college years.

Emotions are more nuanced.

As a child of disordered parents, I think it's helpful to categorize my emotions into parts.  There's my day-to-day emotional well being that connected to the daily and recent events in my current life.  Then there's my backlog emotional well being that's connected to the stuff of my past of which I may or may not have a good understanding.  You don't need the understanding at the beginning to start managing it.  You just need to give it due process.  

You see, when I'm doing well, I can be very resilient in dealing with the ups and downs of my day-to-day life.  A little disappointment here, anticipating good prospects there.  But sometimes when something comes up that is more related to my "backlog" usually something related to some dysfunctional behavior of my extended family.  And not surprisingly consistently associated with family charged events, then I give myself a lot more slack.  I call it my "bpdfamily-tax"

In any case, become acquainted and familiar with what is going on internally when you are feeling this way.  Something to consider is that if no one in your family has ever paid attention to your emotional well being, then there is a part of you who is keenly afraid of not being heard.  Or worse, of being heard but dismissed.

I hope some of this helps.
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Insom
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« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2017, 09:16:07 PM »

Thank you again, Schwing.  Your comments have felt deeply helpful to me, almost frighteningly so.  Like, it’s finally occurring to me to ask, ":)oes my mom have BPD?”  (Holy crap, does she?)  This is a question I’m unable to answer, but it feels like enough right now to just ask it.

Excerpt
I depended on the "right chemistry" to decide who I would be with.

Yes, I can relate with this, especially when it comes to friendships.

Excerpt
If your bond formed over time, I wonder if it might be worthwhile to consider if not some kinds of events reinforced your connection with him.  Not the kind of reasonable events like those leading to developing familiarity such as by spending more time together, but rather unreasonable events that might speak to any dysfunctional family interactions of your past.

You know, I hadn't exactly thought about it this way until now, but our whole courtship was unreasonable.  For example, my BPD-ex may have gotten me out of the house on one premise, "let's go to a movie," but then have some other event planned.  (I was around 17 when we met & still living at home with my mom.)  These experiences were emotionally powerful in complicated ways.  There was very often an element of coercion involved.  I’d be interested in spending time with him, but then he’d take me someplace where I felt uncomfortable and then detain me there (no phone, not sure where I was, no way home).  Or I’d be furious with him and then he’d do or show me something so unexpectedly charming or beautiful that it would disarm me.  Sometimes I felt cherished by him.  Other times I know I was abused.  Sometimes conflicting feelings existed at the same time.  Am I in danger or is he caring for me?

Excerpt
Something to consider is that if no one in your family has ever paid attention to your emotional well being, then there is a part of you who is keenly afraid of not being heard.  Or worse, of being heard but dismissed.

OK, so this one brought the sting of tears to my eyes.  One thing I remember about my BPD-ex is him literally coaxing me to speak.  You may or may not relate to this, but as a young person I often felt fearful about giving my thoughts to someone if I didn't know them well enough to suss out what they thought about an issue. So even simple questions like "what do you want to eat," felt fraught to me.  Anyway, my BPD-ex hasn't been the only person to solicit my thoughts, but he did so in a way - by exhorting me to speak, by pleading with me to write, to communicate with him - that made me feel seen, like what I thought and who I was mattered.

But beyond this, and perhaps more powerfully, he created situations that forced me to confront my family.  That forced me out of the good-girl role, the self-contained girl role.  I know he did this for his own benefit and not to help me.  But it did help me, I think, to have someone standing beside me, with different needs than my family of origin, but whose energy provided balance. 
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« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2017, 05:23:41 PM »

Like, it’s finally occurring to me to ask, ":)oes my mom have BPD?”  (Holy crap, does she?)  This is a question I’m unable to answer, but it feels like enough right now to just ask it.

Don't bite more than you can chew.  Just keep biting.  And eventually you'll be able to chew more.

Yes, I can relate with this, especially when it comes to friendships.

What I've noticed in the friendships I've chosen over the years, especially during my early years of middle and high school, is  I've always selected people who were touched in some way by this disorder.  Nearly all the groomsmen at my wedding had at least one parent who I suspected of having BPD (I didn't know that at the time; I learned this over the years after).  I think I did this because how they behaved in their social interactions was most familiar and comfortable to me.  I don't think it's an accident that I married another non.  I consider it a success that I did not end up marrying someone who is disordered.

You know, I hadn't exactly thought about it this way until now, but our whole courtship was unreasonable.  For example, my BPD-ex may have gotten me out of the house on one premise, "let's go to a movie," but then have some other event planned.  (I was around 17 when we met & still living at home with my mom.)  These experiences were emotionally powerful in complicated ways.  There was very often an element of coercion involved.  I’d be interested in spending time with him, but then he’d take me someplace where I felt uncomfortable and then detain me there (no phone, not sure where I was, no way home).  Or I’d be furious with him and then he’d do or show me something so unexpectedly charming or beautiful that it would disarm me.  Sometimes I felt cherished by him.  Other times I know I was abused.  Sometimes conflicting feelings existed at the same time.  Am I in danger or is he caring for me?

I think one of the common lessons we've learned from being with disordered partners is that for each of us, we were willing to tolerate poor (if not abusive) behavior in order to get something we desperately needed. I needed to win over the love of my mother who is incapable of love.  I projected that need onto my BPD partner. I was willing to tolerate so much in order to get what she could not give.

What I realized much later, was that I am able to provide what I needed.  I couldn't do that for myself as a child.  But I can as an adult.  We can be what we need for ourselves.  And in fulfilling these needs, we are in a much better position to negotiate healthy adult relationships, in lieu of dysfunctional relationships.

It seems to me, from what you describe, you were willing to tolerate coercion, maybe some kind of imprisonment (?) so long as you were also disarmed by charm and beauty.  This made you feel cherished.

I think it is important and reasonable to be cherished. But it is not reasonable to submit to abuse or coercion in order to pay for such feelings.  And just because you feel cherished, does not also mean you actually are cherished.  What might be more confusing is if you can see that you are cherished by someone who loves you, but yet you do not feel cherished.  

OK, so this one brought the sting of tears to my eyes.  One thing I remember about my BPD-ex is him literally coaxing me to speak.  You may or may not relate to this, but as a young person I often felt fearful about giving my thoughts to someone if I didn't know them well enough to suss out what they thought about an issue. So even simple questions like "what do you want to eat," felt fraught to me.  Anyway, my BPD-ex hasn't been the only person to solicit my thoughts, but he did so in a way - by exhorting me to speak, by pleading with me to write, to communicate with him - that made me feel seen, like what I thought and who I was mattered.

I didn't experience this exactly.

While we did speak often, my family members often kept to ourselves what was important.  Rather what my parents considered important, we communicated openly (i.e. school, obligations).  But I think we all (my siblings) always kept hidden who we love.  All of us dated for multiple years before we were willing to introduce our partners to our parents.  

I can't recall any specific instances of betrayal but I think my mother must have taken advantage of such information in our past.  Why else would we be so private about such things?  I dated my BPDgf for over two years before I introduced her to my family.  My brother dated his now wife for two years before he introduced her to us.  My sister has been dating her current love interest for maybe three years now but he has not yet been introduced to my parents.

I can imagine a child of a disordered parent, learning through experience, that it is better to keep your feelings to yourself.  It is safer to let your parents tell you how you feel than for you to say how you actually feel, especially when it reflects badly upon the disordered parent (or contradicts them).  Wouldn't you, as a child, want your parent to want to know how you are feeling?  More importantly, wouldn't you, as a child, want your parent to accept how you feel and console you (if you require consolation)?
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« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2017, 12:51:52 PM »

OK, something has shifted in the month since I last wrote.  The thoughts and memories I'm having about my PBD-ex are no longer intrusive.  I'm not dreaming about him.  I have to choose to think about him and that intense mix of apprehension plus the desire to connect has evaporated.  Why?  I'm not sure.  But your thought, Schwing, about the "canary in the coal mine" rings true.

The realization you helped me arrive at - that my mom has BPD traits - was profound and shed light on family problems that have baffled me for years.  For a long time I've felt I've had a role to play in bringing people in my family together (if I could only figure out how).  I see now that is not for me to do.  Helping my mom heal her own estranged relationships and interpersonal conflicts is beyond me.  But what I can do, and what feels important to me emotionally, is to work on strengthening individual relationships I have with people in my family that have been damaged by my mom.  This won't be easy as I am surely in for some rejection.  But knowing where to put my care has provided some relief (at least I know what direction to row in).

Excerpt
I consider it a success that I did not end up marrying someone who is disordered.

This is beautiful.  I hope the same is true for me and think it may be. Thank you.

Excerpt
We can be what we need for ourselves.  And in fulfilling these needs, we are in a much better position to negotiate healthy adult relationships, in lieu of dysfunctional relationships.

Some of the most challenging questions you've asked, the one's I've found hardest to answer, the ones I've most wanted to avoid, the ones that feel scariest, are all in this category helping identify needs. 

Excerpt
And just because you feel cherished, does not also mean you actually are cherished.  What might be more confusing is if you can see that you are cherished by someone who loves you, but yet you do not feel cherished. 

Yes, I can see what you mean by this.  Thank you.

Is this what therapy can be like?  If so, I may need to try again.  I did try once when I was in the throes figuring out how to leave my BPD-ex but I don't recall even getting close to dealing with the topic of my mom which I did not know how to broach and needed help with.  Feeling grief in retrospect, for that missed opportunity. 
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« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2017, 12:48:23 PM »

For a long time I've felt I've had a role to play in bringing people in my family together (if I could only figure out how).  I see now that is not for me to do. 

Perhaps that was the role you gave yourself growing up in your family of origin.  You felt that you needed a harmonious family dynamic (who doesn't?). Seems only fair that you establish/nurture this quality in the family that you have since gathered for yourself in adulthood.

Helping my mom heal her own estranged relationships and interpersonal conflicts is beyond me. 

If your mother is disordered, you will need to consider that healing her own estranged relationships and interpersonal conflicts is beyond her.  One of the diagnostic indications for borderline personality disorder is "a pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation."

But what I can do, and what feels important to me emotionally, is to work on strengthening individual relationships I have with people in my family that have been damaged by my mom.  This won't be easy as I am surely in for some rejection.  But knowing where to put my care has provided some relief (at least I know what direction to row in).

Consider that every one of your family members may be operating at a level of denial when it comes to your mother's disordered behaviors.  Some family members may have "fleas" or learned behaviors that look very borderline-like.  And even if you are able to strengthen your rapport with these family members, your mother may always be right around the corner to sabotage what you've accomplished.

I don't write this to discourage you.  I just want you to gird yourself.  My understanding of this disorder is that she will perceive any strong connections you make with your family member as a threat, a threat of imagined abandonment.  I believe that the disordered may perceive our efforts to build stronger connections as an effort to turn family members and loved ones against them, especially if these connections do not pay some homage to the disordered.  This quality is especially true for the "queen" borderline mother types.

I've found that the best strategy for limiting the damage that borderline family members can do is to maintain relationships as formally and as distantly as possible.  Other family members who are willing to consider our BPD loved one's disordered behavior are supported but not pushed too strongly towards conclusions they are not yet ready to accept.

Is this what therapy can be like?  If so, I may need to try again.  I did try once when I was in the throes figuring out how to leave my BPD-ex but I don't recall even getting close to dealing with the topic of my mom which I did not know how to broach and needed help with.  Feeling grief in retrospect, for that missed opportunity. 

Therapy can be about unraveling how past/present family dynamics cause us distress.  It depends on the therapist.  It would be best to establish a goal for yourself and to get feedback about that goal to help you decide if you've found the right therapist for you.  I imagine some therapists became therapists because they have some familiarity with disordered family members.  Then again, some therapists can be disordered themselves.  Caveat emptor.

Best wishes,

Schwing
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« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2017, 10:17:11 AM »

Bless you, Schwing.  This dialog has far exceeded what I expected or even believed possible on an online forum.

Excerpt
I don't write this to discourage you.  I just want you to gird yourself.

Girded!  (For the time being, at least.)  Thank you.

Excerpt
I've found that the best strategy for limiting the damage that borderline family members can do is to maintain relationships as formally and as distantly as possible.  Other family members who are willing to consider our BPD loved one's disordered behavior are supported but not pushed too strongly towards conclusions they are not yet ready to accept.

This is something I needed to hear and may not have arrived at on my own.

I'll be seeking additional help with navigating, and hopefully healing, some of this stuff offline.  Thank you for helping me get here. 
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