Please pray for wisdom. I am driving to get my child from sister in law

[formflier]

I have been deceived... .again regarding my children being left with my Sister in law.

I am going to pick up child then I will call my wife.

Pickup in about two hours.

FF

[Panshekay]

Praying for wisdom for you during this difficult journey.  May God bless you and guide you today and always FF.

[formflier]

I have my daughter... .wife is flipping out.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

Sending you calming thoughts... .

[formflier]

Bad scene here... .kids crying... .asking me questions.  It is all come from the BPDish  stuff they have been fed by their Mom.

The things they have asked... .it is heartbreaking.

FF

[Notwendy]

I am so sorry you and the kids are experiencing this.

Praying for wisdom for you.

[formflier]

The immediate issue has been calmed and there are some very confused children that now have some insight into "the other side" of a BPD relationship.

I could see the wheels turning in their brain as they considered the impact of the new information.

Very direct questions.  Why won't/wouldn't you pay Papaaw for the work he did?

Question to ponder... .why would an owner get his money for a sale that didn't happen yet?  Especially with the other owner saying he didn't agree with taking the money... .what is that called?

They said the word... .stealing.

There were other direct questions with false premises.

Why did you ban cousin xyz from our house?

Answer.

Did cousin xyz lie to me about what he brought into our house and exposed our 4 year old to?    They answered yes.

I made it clear that I invited him and his family you have a talk with me about returning to our house and if they declined to talk... .did I ban him?  

They understood and saw the point of view.

Other similar Revelations.

FF

[formflier]

Taking a breather to reflect.

So, I was talking to S14 and talking about Dr No (007).  He was clueless and started talking about actors that had played 007... .and I said which one... .he said... ."you know... the British guy... "     I found this funny... .and sometimes call my brother in law (technically ex bro in law since there is divorce) to have S14s uncle help chide and joke with him about "the British guy" and 007. 

To my shock... .D11 answers the phone.  Well... .I'm speechless... .she is in our home state (in my mind and in my agreement with my wife... that was where she was going a week ago.)... .yet she is now in a state almost 8 hours away... .several states away.

Bro in law quickly realizes I have no idea and fills me in.  My wife is in home state and D11 has been left in care of SIL.  The last couple visits my wife and I had signed parenting agreements stating that my wife would stay there and keep eyes on kids.  It is a well worn path... .there was no "mistake"... ."oops... forgot to call FF".  Direct... willful deception and abrogation of a parenting agreement.

So... .I could be there in 2 hours (I'm working on an investment house and supporting my Dad's stroke recovery).   So I call my P... discuss wisdom of tacking action to get my daughter back and decide to do so.

The hornets nest came alive after I picked up daughter and BIL "failed" to return D11 to sister in laws care when SIL "demanded" it.

Wife packed up older kids and started driving... .8-9 hours to come get daughter to return her home "as we planned"  (with me saying... .yeah... .a week ago)

Typical BPDish texts and phone calls that can easier and easier as she drove.  By the time she got here she was "love bombing". 

I stayed neutral and got her to give me her word we would focus on "solving the issue between" us in writing (email) after reflecting and praying for a day or two.

My current plan is to also send letters to BIL and SIL regarding making sure everyone is kept in the loop on childcare decisions and no one is "dictated to".

There is a current "flareup" in the divorce drama in BIL and SIL and one of the cousins has moved out.  It appears to me D11 was given to SIL as "bait" to try to entice the cousin back to her mothers house.

With all that dysfunction on display, I would never have agreed to her being left there... .my wife knows this.  She knows that any compromise leaving her there would have been heavy on accountability and BPDish types typically run from accountability.  Especially SIL.  It's never her fault.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

Whole thing sounds pretty... .idk the word... .discouraging is not strong enough.

"solving the issue between" us in writing (email) after reflecting and praying for a day or two.

Can't imagine what possibly would be "resolved."

Curious... .
What would be your goal of this "conversation?"


What was happening before this? Did she try getting your attention in some other way and fail? Or what do you feel caused her to defy agreement you both have, other than her wanting her way, because she also has a choice to stir drama or not, and seems drama was on her menu.

Just am wondering these things cause engagement with you via these talks and drama could possibly be it's own reward, idk tho.

Seems like you are once again being strongly lured by her to play a "punitive parent" schema role.

[formflier]

My current plan is to ask her... allow her space to explain the "model" she was using to make her decision and where she learned the model.

Apparently she just finished "mentorship"

So... .my Biblical model to make this decision was... .

Vice "attacking" her or being "punitive".

She does seem to lure me into that role.

Also considering writing letters to both in laws and copying my wife. 

Obviously will discuss all of this with P and with L.  Letters are to offer pathway to discussion /reconciliation and to create a verifiable paper trail for possible future court filings.

I do need to be vigilant about any move I make with regards to drama triangle.  Is my move "inflaming" drama or is it serving a useful purpose?

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

Am always curious what your P says cause you always seem to get sound advice.

Is the parenting agreement you two signed actually a personal document or legally enforcable one?  I assumed it was not something you could call police on her over and have them enforce her handing kids over... .like when persons are divorced.  (Which they often say its a civil matter anyway and leave if ex spouse won't hand over kid willingly.)

Yet I hear ya if you are making a paper trail as to your efforts at coparenting and attempts at getting the two of you to stick to agreements.

I can't imagine, other than the paper trail, what her reasoning will be in regards to how she arrived at that decision.  I can only imagine... .deflection, blame shifting, victimizing herself explaining why she is entitled to make a solo decision, etc.
(Yet, I hope I am surprised)

So unless you suspect another response... .

How are you prepared to respond to her response?

Sounds pretty wise tho to keep it email and all, this way you are keeping a distance from her reactions, and hopefully it is a format that would lend for her to be most successful at being thoughtful if she so would choose to.

I'm not so sure about writing the in laws... .would personally hold off on that and see what P says.  Seems to me that if she drops kids off there, not fair to teach them to parent her by making decisions "for her" by refusing kids.  Seems her responsibility, and in a way, treating her like a child by speaking about this with them... .depending on how you go about it.  But even making them aware of you two having an agreement, imo, is drama, and between you and FFw.  On the otherhand, doing so to pick up daughter seems necessary... .but shaaring marital info as a prophylactic seems shifting responsibility from her (or you both) to them... .but idk, could be effective to keep kids safe, but also could feed the dynamic that your wife is not responsible and that you are controlling.  Hence, am interested in P take on this.

[Notwendy]

FF, from reading your posts, it seems your wife agrees to a "rule" with you- and then you feel surprised when she doesn't follow the rule she agreed on, even if the two of you mutually agree on a Biblical rule.

This seems to be the nature of BPD- a sort of black and white world where the image is what she agrees to- she really sees herself in a Biblical marriage, a good Christian. Then, the impulsive side.

I see something similar in my BPD mother.  The "ideal" is there, then there is the slip up. We are all human, and we make mistakes. What is missing is the accountability. If the slip up is blamed on someone else ( victim triangle here)- then there isn't accountability. Without accountability, there is no learning from the experience- and it repeats itself.

My mother is, in general, a good person. I think she follows the "rules" most of the time. She wouldn't do something really bad. Yet, she can lie straight face to me and then say " I never lied to you". She recently left some ugly messages on my phone and when I referred to what she said, swore she never said that- and they are right there on my phone. My way of going about these things is to be accountable, but she does it differently.

I call this the "dry erase" - the way to deal with a mistake or a transgression is to somehow decide it didn't happen. It's confusing because it did happen.

I expect that your wife probably does follow your agreements most of the time, then you are shocked when she doesn't. She probably follows the rules at work, and is a good mom a lot of the time. This is the confusion of BPD. We loved it when "nice mom" was present, but then something would change- and she'd then become nice mom again afterwards. It doesn't make sense to those of us who don't do this.

I wonder if instead of things being chaotic when your wife breaks an agreement, that you just assume it is going to happen from time to time, and have a plan for that.

[formflier]

I wonder if instead of things being chaotic when your wife breaks an agreement, that you just assume it is going to happen from time to time, and have a plan for that.

This is generally the mindset.  I express it this way.

5 years from now... .my wife will likely still be doing shocking things. 

I need to be authentic and real... .and not suppress feelings.  So... .I should be shocked and should express that to her.

By the same token... .I shouldn't "freak out" and do wild and crazy things.  Don't add to the crazy making.  Steps likely will need to be taken and in evaluating those steps I need to focus on not engaging in drama, protecting children's emotional health, upholding personal and family boundaries.

So... .in this instance my first priority was to get my child into a safe situation. 

Then... I communicated with my wife.   4 phone calls over 5-6 hours.  All were ridiculous... .all were ending by me for boundary violations.  However... .relatively speaking... .things were better each phone call.  As were texts as the night went on.

By the time she got here... .she tried to "butter me up". 

While emotions are raw... .for both of us... .  I saw no benefit (nothing good can come of this) of "hashing it out". 

We had a number of conversations about other issues that went fine.  My wife obviously wanted to leave the room and consider it "over".

I wish I could remember verbatim what I said... .but it went something like this (my intent anyway)

"We need to address the differences between us.  I recommend that we agree to reflect for a couple days and address this via email.  If you want to discuss this now in person, then we can go to breakfast and discuss this privately."

She chose to discuss via email.

Likely will send her something tomorrow night... .after my appointment with my P (via phone due to location).

I did talk to P several times as things were unfolding.  She generally blessed my moves... .nudged me a couple of times for a slight difference.

Interestingly enough... .she pushed the phrase  "FFw... .I'm shocked... .there are no words to describe... .xyz"

I didn't belabor that point... .but didn't hide it either. 

FF

[flourdust]

My current plan is to ask her... allow her space to explain the "model" she was using to make her decision and where she learned the model.

---

I do need to be vigilant about any move I make with regards to drama triangle.  Is my move "inflaming" drama or is it serving a useful purpose?

I'll be blunt: this is enshrining JADE as a conflict resolution tool ... .when it typically has the opposite effect.

Think of using BIFF instead. BIFF stands for Brief, Informative, Friendly, Firm.

Your goal is to not have your kids left alone at your SIL's house (or to be there at all, it's not clear to me). THAT is what you need in writing. You absolutely do not need to go down the rabbit hole of writing down and debating rationalizations. And ... .your demand for that is an example of pretty controlling behavior, the kind I often see from my BPDw: "You screwed up! Now you must present your thinking and defend it while I pick it apart on the stand!"

What you want for a paper trail (and for clear communication) is a simple statement of what behavior is not allowed to happen.

[formflier]

FD,

I completely understand and "see" your point of view from a "secular" point of view.

From a conservative Christian point of view, I'm trying to "gently at first" confront my wife about this.  While certainly blending lessons from bpdfamily.

There is no "model" in Christianity, that I know of, that says the wife is the leader of the home and should exclude her husband from decision making (or even awareness) about "raising" children.  In this context, deciding who may care for a child for a week and what that child will be "exposed" to without a parent present).

Big picture:  I'm not a "persecutor" of my wife (even though she may perceive that) and I'm also not in the business of "saving" her from the natural and logical consequences of her actions.

I can imagine there will be great distress as she fancies herself to be a  "super Christian wife" yet can find no basis in Christianity for her actions.  That's her problem to solve, even if she solves it badly.

She can either change her ways and attitudes or continue with distress and likely try to blame others. 

My job is to not take blame that is not mine and not enable her to easily duck this.

In the past I've been ok with my kids being there with a parents eyes on.  Still considering the future.

FF

[Notwendy]

 I need to be authentic and real... .and not suppress feelings.  So... .I should be shocked and should express that to her.

By the same token... .I shouldn't "freak out" and do wild and crazy things.  Don't add to the crazy making.  Steps likely will need to be taken and in evaluating those steps I need to focus on not engaging in drama, protecting children's emotional health, upholding personal and family boundaries.


Good job with this!

[flourdust]

FD,

I completely understand and "see" your point of view from a "secular" point of view.

Actually, I consider it a pragmatic point of view. If you want an outcome, focus on the path that has the greatest chance to get you to that outcome as directly as possible.

In this case, your primary goal is to protect the kids by keeping them out of an unsafe environment. Your outcome has to be behavior change on your wife's part that achieves that goal. Does choosing instead to enter into a debate about the thought processes of a disordered person get you to that outcome? Christian reasoning doesn't provide a buffer against disordered thinking (as you well know by now), unless there's divine intervention.

[formflier]

Good job with this!

Thanks!

Although credit needs to be passed along to P... .and to you guys.  Especially for the drama thinking.

Here is the initial operating theory.

My wife saw strife in my sisters family (sisters 14 year old daughter moved out to live with Dad).  Wife decides to rescue.  SIL is "victim".  14 year old daughter is persecutor. 

I'm likely to be seen as persecutor and while I shouldn't avoid action because they will see me this way... .I do need to consider this angle.

FF

[Notwendy]

I would even say reasoning ( from a number of perspectives)  - doesn't provide a buffer with disordered thinking.

Also I agree that action on your part can be seen as "persecutor" but a boundary is a boundary.

[formflier]

Said another way.

My wife professes to use the Bible as the rulebook for her life. 

It will be interesting to see her point to where the Bible grants her the "stewardship" or "authority" to take the action she did.  I'm sure that will be an interesting post.

If it were a "less clear" principle or my children's welfare was not at stake... .I would certainly take the path of "minimum energy".

I also have a goal of creating a paper trail, while hoping I never have to use it.

FF

[Notwendy]

There's the split- what your wife professes and what she does.

We are all that way to a certain extent- we all slip up from our ideals.

The difference is how we handle the slip ups- as I posted in my other post.

One is we learn from them, then don't make the same mistake.

The other is we don't learn from them- dissociate from the experience, it didn't happen ( which allows the person to believe they are their ideal versions of themselves. )

[formflier]

Another mindset I need to keep as I consider how I communicate with her is that it is unlikely there will be a "poof" and she sees the light moment.

I should likely focus more in the conversation on places where I can "nudge" things in a better direction and then declare victory and move on.

FF

[forlorn]

Hi, FF!  Just wanting you to know that I am thinking of you. Clearly, as I look to you for guidance so often, I am not a person with words of wisdom; however, I have plenty of heartfelt compassion and prayers to send your way.

[Sunfl0wer]

It will be interesting to see her point to where the Bible grants her the "stewardship" or "authority" to take the action she did.  I'm sure that will be an interesting post.

I see this approach to attempt to shine light on the situation... .as your behavior and words matching the expectations you have for the values and marriage you desire (and she says she desires)... .and your perserverence and commitment to that. (Not to mention long suffering)  

This seems opposite of "punitive parent" mode and you treating her like an accountable adult.  Just because she doesn't respond as an adult doesn't mean you should quite setting that expectation... .and keep looking for this behavior from her... .discussing things with her as your partner.

Seems to me, this is only way I can think of to uphold ones values in face of this situation.  Cause not bringing it up, makes it seem not important and is where many folks end up expecting less from their relationship, and values begin to errode.

[toomanydogs]

Another mindset I need to keep as I consider how I communicate with her is that it is unlikely there will be a "poof" and she sees the light moment.

I should likely focus more in the conversation on places where I can "nudge" things in a better direction and then declare victory and move on.

FF

I think people with BPD are incapable of having those "poof" moments, and probably nudging works better, and definitely moving on works better.

I rely so much on your advice and wisdom that I wanted to seek out your posts. I am praying for you, FF. <3

[formflier]

Thanks... .about to meet with P via phone.  Working on email to open the "conversation" this evening.

I've had a couple conversations with my wife about other matters that went fine.

FF

[formflier]

Here is what I sent her this morning.

P was generally in agreement with "pausing" and going to email.  The was emphatic to NOT send her scriptures or "suggest" how she was or should be thinking, as I was planning on doing. 

I get the thought... .step 1 is let her describe her thinking.   

We've had several completely normal and productive phone conversations about other matters.  My guess is she wants to take the eraser to the whiteboard.   

Also had discussions with P about avoiding being the "persecutor" or "playing" on the drama triangle.  She said at some point in the future I may need to assume the persecutor role (because of boundaries) but for now, lets see where she wants to go with this.

P and I generally agree that wife wants to rescue and has been in that mode for a while.  Sister in law wants to be rescued and my niece that moved out of my SILs house is the persecutor (bad one). 

This is the longest "defiance" my SIL has ever experienced from her childrend (niece move out), so it will be interesting to see how the roles shift.  With a warning from P to not "needlessly" get on the triangle with them.



FF

FFw,

It was wonderful to snuggle with you again this weekend.  Thanks for being such a good listener as I talked about my Dad….it means a lot to me.

Also, your agreement to pause and reflect on differences between us regarding D11 in TN gives me hope for reconciliation.

As I prayerfully considered leading us through reconciliation, I’ve focused on our “destination”.  You and I coming together around scripture to guide us in making decisions.

I would like you to take a few moments and share the Biblical principles and verses which guided your decision making about D11’s TN stay.

I’ll spend time with your response and pray for guidance towards oneness from there as I prepare a response.

Love,

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

Wow!
Nice!

[allienoah]

ff The way you put that discussion was amazing. I genuinely hope it all works out for you, and I am sorry you are having such an issue. That sounded like a very complicated scenario! I wish you peace though in its resolution. You are always so helpful to everyone on here. Sending you   and prayers!

[formflier]

  That sounded like a very complicated scenario!

My pwBPD likes to make things complicated.  I need to constantly remind myself to make things simpler.


My wife and I both profess to be Christians.  (I believe she is... .that her belief is authentic).  We both profess a "plain reading" of Biblical text... .(no gymnastics to prove xyz is "ok".  As a husband and wife we jointly decided that D11 needed a break and would go back to our home state to be a kid for a while (vice helping me with rehab project and support my Mom and Dad while Dad is working on stroke issues).  My wife goes to a state a couple hours from me and decides to leave her there for 4-5 days... .before I just kinda "stumble upon" the knowledge that she is there.  I drive to that location and pick up my daughter, preventing SIL from acting as a parent to her... .or in anyway being in charge of her.  My wife flips out.  My wife claims "you can't do this without asking... " (yet... she can ... .yeah... you guys get it)

Bottom line:  The Bible, read plainly, sets up a patriarchal system of power in the family.  You can believe it... .or reject that.  How you get to be a conservative Christian woman and be head of the household... .?  I haven't the foggiest idea.

Likely will be entertaining to watch her explain it...

FF