We live like monks, roommates.

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I wanted to add my two cents to this thread. When I first got together with my husband, our sexual intimacy was off the charts. I was totally smitten by him and it seemed like I had finally met the perfect person for me.

Now, almost fifteen years later, we live like monks, roommates. He lives in a separate building on the property and we haven't had sex in about three years. I never would have imagined that our relationship would evolve to this, but I can honestly say that I'm happy.

Being post-menopausal, I don't have the sexual drive I once did and that's a relief. I've always been able to take care of my own needs when they arise, but I certainly made some bad decisions in my choice of men over the years.

To analyze how our relationship ended up in its current state: I started getting annoyed and worried at my husband's use of alcohol and pharmaceuticals. Because I am a rather direct person, I told him clearly what I thought and felt about the subject. Not realizing that he has BPD, this approach did not go over well.

When my requests that he refrain somewhat from getting sh!tfaced drunk were ignored, I started separating myself by sleeping alone. Previously I would wait up for him, alone in bed, sometimes until 2 a.m. while he played music, surfed the web, watched TV, read, whatever. Even though he would use headphones, I still couldn't sleep, since I was "waiting". Then when he'd finally come to bed, he would snore loudly, due to drinking and sleeping pills.

I'd try to get him to turn on his side so that he wouldn't snore, then he'd get annoyed with me for waking him up. The more sleep deprived I was, the more irritable I got, and the more I criticized his drinking.

Finally I just started going to bed at a reasonable hour in one of the bedrooms in the house, while he stayed up and "party-ed" in his studio.

I remember one time when he was sober and I think I was trying to initiate intimacy. He said he "didn't trust me." That really stung because I am one of the most loyal and trustworthy people--that's something I know about myself to be absolutely true. It's actually been a negative at times because I've tolerated too much from other people.

I don't think he meant it as thinking I'd cheat, but rather that I was "untrustworthy" because I had criticized him.

So, other than a time or two since that incident, we haven't had sex. I can't say that I truly miss it because when he was drinking, it seemed like he was so disconnected that sex seemed really impersonal and mechanical. (I guess in retrospect, he was afraid of being engulfed. And our initial intimacy was certainly overwhelming and ego-losing in that respect.)

Anyway, I hope that wasn't too much information. You see that indeed I am a direct person!   

 

[Cat Familiar]

I wanted to add my two cents to this thread. When I first got together with my husband, our sexual intimacy was off the charts. I was totally smitten by him and it seemed like I had finally met the perfect person for me.

Now, almost fifteen years later, we live like monks, roommates. He lives in a separate building on the property and we haven't had sex in about three years. I never would have imagined that our relationship would evolve to this, but I can honestly say that I'm happy.

Being post-menopausal, I don't have the sexual drive I once did and that's a relief. I've always been able to take care of my own needs when they arise, but I certainly made some bad decisions in my choice of men over the years.

To analyze how our relationship ended up in its current state: I started getting annoyed and worried at my husband's use of alcohol and pharmaceuticals. Because I am a rather direct person, I told him clearly what I thought and felt about the subject. Not realizing that he has BPD, this approach did not go over well.

When my requests that he refrain somewhat from getting sh!tfaced drunk were ignored, I started separating myself by sleeping alone. Previously I would wait up for him, alone in bed, sometimes until 2 a.m. while he played music, surfed the web, watched TV, read, whatever. Even though he would use headphones, I still couldn't sleep, since I was "waiting". Then when he'd finally come to bed, he would snore loudly, due to drinking and sleeping pills.

I'd try to get him to turn on his side so that he wouldn't snore, then he'd get annoyed with me for waking him up. The more sleep deprived I was, the more irritable I got, and the more I criticized his drinking.

Finally I just started going to bed at a reasonable hour in one of the bedrooms in the house, while he stayed up and "party-ed" in his studio.

I remember one time when he was sober and I think I was trying to initiate intimacy. He said he "didn't trust me." That really stung because I am one of the most loyal and trustworthy people--that's something I know about myself to be absolutely true. It's actually been a negative at times because I've tolerated too much from other people.

I don't think he meant it as thinking I'd cheat, but rather that I was "untrustworthy" because I had criticized him.

So, other than a time or two since that incident, we haven't had sex. I can't say that I truly miss it because when he was drinking, it seemed like he was so disconnected that sex seemed really impersonal and mechanical. (I guess in retrospect, he was afraid of being engulfed. And our initial intimacy was certainly overwhelming and ego-losing in that respect.)

Anyway, I hope that wasn't too much information. You see that indeed I am a direct person!   

 

[Cat Familiar]

I've heard that from a guy's perspective, retreating from intimacy can be the beginning of the end--or THE END. My feeling on this is to let the chips fall where they may. It would be nice to once again have a romantic relationship, however I feel that wishing for that is about as unrealistic as wishing to recreate the beginning of the relationship where everything was champagne and roses. It was a nice fantasy while it lasted.

However when I came to my senses and realized the reality of being married to a man with BPD, I was angry. I felt duped, betrayed. Then I felt stupid, as though I couldn't trust my own judgment.

The problem with intimacy from my standpoint is that I need to respect the person I want to have sex with. Otherwise it just feels like going through the motions and frankly, I can take care of my own needs without the drama.

When someone doesn't conduct themselves in a responsible adult manner, I find it hard to respect them. If they are out of control emotionally or with addictions of various sorts, I can love them as a person, but I sure am not physically attracted to them.

It's what it is. I do really care about my husband and I love him, but it's not the hot, romantic, sexual love that initially drew me into the relationship.

We both had serious betrayals from previous marriage partners. If he were to stray, on one level, I would understand. But he seems as uninterested in sex as I. He's had serious pain issues from his hip and for that reason, I doubt if he would actively pursue another woman, but you never know.

It's not something I could control and he really is a kind and compassionate man, so if we were to part ways, I think it would likely be on amenable terms. I have to think of all possibilities, though, for me, I'm happy the way things are.

[toomanydogs]

Wow! I could have written this post.

We live in separate houses. My H doesn't seem to like sex except masturbating to porn. A turn off.

I would really like to gradually reintroduce sexuality into our relationship, however. I am also post menopausal, but it would be really nice to share my sexuality, whatever that might look like.

[formflier]

Cat,

Have you asked your husband for his thoughts on your sexual relationship?

Recently?

FF

[Notwendy]

Hi Cat, good to see you!

This kind of thing started us down a difficult path only it was accidental on my part. We wanted to start a family and I experienced a lot of nausea with my pregnancies. This naturally affected my interest in sex. I assumed that my H could see that - and also understand that it was temporary. What I didn't know is that he took it as a rejection of him personally, and also saw this as permanent. (victim mode)  He didn't discuss this with me. Just assumed it and responded by being verbally cruel and rejecting me sexually. (persecutor mode)  I didn't understand what was happening and was also hurt and dejected- also acted out of victim perspective- and several difficult years followed this. For me, the drama triangle was the "normal" I grew up with, and apparently it must have been the pattern in my H's FOO - and we were in that pattern.

Sex in a long term intimate relationship is so complicated and people bring in all kinds of expectations and meaning with it.

Fortunately through MC my H has come to realize that this was not a rejection. He has wanted to rekindle things. The issue on my part is getting over the "payback" - the tough years.  However, I do believe that sex is important in marriage and want to at least maintain that part of it. I think there is a big disconnection that can happen without it.

So for some TMI part- one thing I have learned as a post menopausal woman is that there isn't much desire- but if things get going- the desire can happen. It makes it even more difficult to override emotional issues- like the resentment you feel about your H's drinking. I also think men have their own physical changes and challenges- which is why men of a certain age turn to those blue pills. That's a tough situation for them emotionally. Like you, I tend to be more pragmatic about our biology- hormones are not personal. But for your H, the combination of alcohol and his age can impact "performance" and he may be anxious about that.

I think your response to your H's drinking may have had a similar impact to my nausea of pregnancy. He may have seen this as a huge rejection- and made a lot more meaning out of it than the situation was. This put him in victim mode. Then he responded by his partying and possibly rejecting you for payback. You, feeling rejected and irritated by his partying more- retreated. You became "untrustworthy" to him because he felt rejected.

Alcohol is a problem. It's an addiction and addictions go hand in hand with dysfunction. I think I would see this as two different issues that are connected. One is sex, the other is drinking. The resentments you feel are real. The question is- do you want to rekindle the physical side of the relationship with him, as he is, or not. You have no power over the drinking- no matter what your sleeping arrangements are. Or, do you not want to have that kind of relationship with him. Some people do settle into a room mate relationship. It may work for you. To rekindle the physical part after menopause, I would say you just have to do it- and see what happens rather than wait for some kind of desire. It may not be the whole act at first, but just more cuddling, snuggling, without expectations. But mother nature probably still remembers. 

[Cat Familiar]

Thanks FF and Notwendy for your replies. I will respond in more detail when I have time later today. I had my monthly meeting with my P yesterday and brought up this topic.

She said that it is nearly impossible to get my husband to speak about his feelings (she saw us as a couple some years ago and had some individual sessions with my husband). I had noticed that whenever I tried to talk intimately with him and share my feelings and get him to talk about his, it always ended up in one of the following ways: 1. I was "criticizing" him  2. I was "angry"  3. I think that I'm "better than" him  4. I "don't care about" his feelings  5. He's "not important"

The irony is that I do care very much about him and his feelings and I merely want to talk and deepen our emotional intimacy, but when I've tried, it's gone so wrong... .

Hearing that from her was a nice validation because I've never met *anyone* that has been so unwilling to open up to me when I've encouraged them to share what's in their heart. And so I married this guy?

She went on to say that it's unrealistic to try to have a sexual intimacy with someone who is so unlikely to be emotionally intimate.

So, to answer your question, FF. No, not yet.

[Notwendy]

Years ago, I read a book called "How to improve your marriage without talking about it". It was not about BPD in particular. It was an eye opener.

I am a talker. I always believed that I could work things out by talking - but the more I tried to talk to my H, the worse things got.

I have heard that this is also a difference between men and women. Women need to talk to feel intimate, then intimacy happens. Men need the intimacy before they feel like talking. I expect like any generalizations that there is variation in this.

If I waited to have that deep emotional connection through talking about feelings in order to be intimate it would probably never happen. I also don't want to be treated like an always available object that needs no connection, but I had to decide to let go of the wish for my H to talk about his feelings first.

So, it was a dilemma. Do the deed anyway or wait till he opened up to me. But waiting was not going to make him change from a non talker and to expect the talking first would create tension and distance in the marriage. However, I also balanced the lack of talking with the positives, there are a lot of them. He's a great father, loyal H and we have children. I think he connect with us through his contributions to the family.

I just decided to accept it. Talking is not the way he connects. The more I tried, the more it got awful and awkward.

I don't think this is a BPD thing. I think it is how some men are raised. I was raised with the opposite.  TMI. BPD mom and her feelings.

Your H may be unable to discuss his feelings, but I don't think that means  he is unable to connect. He just has his own ways.

Fidelity in marriage is an important value to me, and I keep boundaries on that. Yet, I have a talking need- so how do I fill that in a marriage? I talk to female friends. I also talk to the people in my 12 step groups- in the group setting. It may not be what I imagined, but taking the expectation for my H to be different did change things for the better. None of us should tolerate abuse in a relationship if it is there, but I think we do need to accept our partners for who they are.

[Cat Familiar]

Notwendy,
Thanks for the book suggestion. I ordered one on Amazon!

I, too, am a talker. Through talking, I've had so much success working things out--WITH OTHER PEOPLE! Not him. Definitely not him.

Yes, you are right about women wanting emotional intimacy first, then physical intimacy afterwards and the reverse order for men.

Ironically, I think he doesn't necessarily want the physical intimacy because he is "afraid of me." No joke, he's said those exact words.

I hug him and he's the first to pull away. I ask if he's "in a hurry" and then he'll hug me a bit longer, but still pull away first.

My psychologist thinks he's even more Asperger-y than me. She knows how hard I've worked to overcome it and develop social skills. He presents well at first: East Coast prep school, Ivy League University, law degree. But he has a hard time nurturing and sustaining friendships and he resents that I have so many friends.

I think he mistakes casual acquaintanceships for friendships and then comes on too strongly and weirds people out by being too generous or too interested too soon. And he seems to have no idea about advancing conversations sometimes. Often I hear people wanting to share something and he just changes the subject. (Fear of intimacy?) It's off-putting, as though he's not interested in what they have to say.

He does that to me all the time. I'll say something where I'm looking for interest, validation, "go on, tell me more" and I get NOTHING. It used to feel insulting, but now I realize that he thinks that if I want to tell him more, I will. The irony is that people who go on and on typically have an agenda or are narcissists and he's a magnet for users.

I think some of his intimacy problems are physically related. He was planning on having a hip replacement until I decided to do stem cell therapy for my shoulder and he chose to try it for his hip. It's not an overnight fix, but so far, just weeks afterwards, we're seeing beneficial effects, which won't maximize until 12 to 18 months.

Also he's had back and neck issues, so the other type of intimacy has caused him pain too.

I'm not closed to the idea, but when someone doesn't even have time for an extended hug, I get the picture.

[Notwendy]

Cat, I wonder if when he says he's afraid of you - he is afraid of being hurt. Back to that time you moved out of the bedroom- if he took it as a personal rejection, he may have been hurt by that.

I have a similar reaction. I had no idea that my H felt rejected by me when I was pregnant. I figured he could see for himself that a wife who is throwing up from the nausea is not interested in sex but somehow this triggered some rejection for him. I have seen him react similarly to other times when I am not interested ( and they are not prolonged) but even if we did have intimacy regularly, it seemed one "no" would set up a "never" to him. It isn't rational, it is how he feels.

So, when the "payback" rejection happened , I didn't see any reason for it. To me, it was out of the blue and devastating. We are probably the most vulnerable with a romantic partner and that is scary. It isn't easy to be vulnerable again. Your H's reasons may not be to avoid intimacy with you, but to avoid being vulnerable and hurt.

If he is a bit on the spectrum- he may not enjoy being hugged. It could be too much for him. You said he has some pain issues. Maybe he likes back rubs, or rubbing his sore hip without it becoming sexual. Or maybe it's fixing him a meal or something else that shows affection.

i get the hypersensitivity to criticism. My H may hear criticism in something I say when there is no intent. Through co-dependency work, I have learned to not say "you" but to speak in "I " terms as even "you" can be triggering. Not to walk on eggshells, but to reframe your words so that they aren't misinterpreted.

People who are very intelligent but have poor social and intimacy skills can get by with casual relationships, but intimate relationships can be difficult. Yet, your H may be deeply attached to you even if he doesn't say it or seem to show it in expressive ways.

[Cat Familiar]

Cat, I wonder if when he says he's afraid of you - he is afraid of being hurt. Back to that time you moved out of the bedroom- if he took it as a personal rejection, he may have been hurt by that.

Notwendy, I'm sure the fear of being hurt is part of it. I think my ability to be incisive and direct is the other part of what he fears. I'm so mindful of what I say to him, and I analyze it beforehand for any possible critical slant, but he knows if I fully let loose with my opinion, I could flay him. He has seen my wit and sardonic humor when we talk politics. Fortunately, in that arena, we're aligned. However, when my opinion departs even slightly from his, he often takes that as criticism.

His Aspergers DX by my therapist is a recent revelation. I had become aware of my own diagnosis some months ago, but now I see how I've had so many people in my life who probably have a shared diagnosis. It's that I'm really tolerant of the slightly out-of-kilter social skills and look for the kindness, sincerity and intelligence of the individual instead.

Currently my biggest challenge is keeping an upbeat mood while I'm around him. From the time I was a little kid, my teachers described me as "happy-go-lucky" and generally that is my default operating mode. The irony is that I've been surrounded since birth by "sad sack" BPDs, starting with my mother. The rest of them were my choice: my ex-husband, a boyfriend, my current husband.

Now my husband is on a continuous grump cycle--for no clear personal reason. I can explain it away by citing the current political atmosphere, the fluctuations of the stock market, worry about whether the stem cell therapy will fully address his hip issue, upcoming quarterly taxes, etc. Really, there's no end to it--it can be as simple as him criticizing himself over whether he "misspoke" to a person on the phone when he called in a to-go order at a deli.

So he's constantly grumbling under his breath, occasionally loudly exclaiming "F*CK!" I used to ask him what's wrong and he'd say, "Nothing," or sometimes, "I'm beating myself up." Now I just try to ignore it. He's gonna do what he's gonna do and though he has enough social control most of the time not to be inappropriate in public, he neither notices nor cares what comes out of his mouth around me. But it's unpleasant to me, being around a fount of negativity.

Yesterday after he had a conversation with one of his oldest friends who he met in law school, he started on a rampage about how this guy is so negative, won't take advice, always complains. We were in the pool at the time and I was listening and validating and then I smiled. He asked me about my smile and I said I smiled because I was enjoying the humorous way he was telling his account. I knew there was no way I was going to tell him that he was perfectly describing himself.

[Notwendy]

It is hard to be around someone grumpy. I think it is fine to just go off by yourself and do something you like if he is being grumpy.

I knew a child with Aspergers who went on to law school. Like many children with AS - he was brilliant, highly verbal. I am sure he's a great lawyer- there is no way anyone could outsmart him when it came to laws and rules. Where pw AS have the most issue is with intimate relationships- they are so complex. Same with BPD- and I think for many of us- the more emotionally intimate relationships are the hardest.

I would think someone with AS would prefer direct conversations. However, if your directness has included criticism, he may not be able to have processed that without feeling hurt.

I would explore that " I am scared of you" statement. It's an honest thing to say and something to think about. Maybe your H would tell you more if you asked him.

[formflier]

Cat Familiar,

While I think we need to be mindful of the way pwBPD "hear" things, I also think that on some issues... .we do too many gymnastics so they "hear" and we never "send" the message that we intend... .or we believe it won't be received right... .so there is no point.

Or we worry that a direct message will make them grumpy... .or grumpier... .so... .we walk on eggshells on something important to us and they find another way to be grumpy. 

Think logically about this... .we decide "they can't handle a message"... .so we don't send it.  Something else happens in life that they can't handle... .and they blame it and are grumpy.

What was gained by not sending a message... .especially one that is important to YOU.

Or if you send a message in a way that is not "authentic" to you.  Perhaps they are still grumpy, you don't feel good about the way you talked... .and then what was gained.

Really, my hope and prayer for you, is that you find a way to have an authentic (to you), direct conversation with your husband about a physical, sexual relationship. 

Certainly avoid blame (I don't think that is gymnastics... .) but I would want you to express your desire/conditions for resuming such a relationship... .and then ask him to respond directly to what you have said, although it would be reasonable for him to have time to think about it... .

I'm more interested in your ability to have the conversation than in his ability to have it.  My gut says that it will probably go better than we think.

I DO think this needs to be thought through... perhaps discussed here... .but with the aim for the message to be authentic to you.



Thoughts?

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I would explore that " I am scared of you" statement. It's an honest thing to say and something to think about. Maybe your H would tell you more if you asked him.

                                                                               ###

While I think we need to be mindful of the way pwBPD "hear" things, I also think that on some issues... .we do too many gymnastics so they "hear" and we never "send" the message that we intend... .or we believe it won't be received right... .so there is no point.

Or we worry that a direct message will make them grumpy... .or grumpier... .so... .we walk on eggshells on something important to us and they find another way to be grumpy.  

Think logically about this... .we decide "they can't handle a message"... .so we don't send it.  Something else happens in life that they can't handle... .and they blame it and are grumpy.

What was gained by not sending a message... .especially one that is important to YOU.

Or if you send a message in a way that is not "authentic" to you.  Perhaps they are still grumpy, you don't feel good about the way you talked... .and then what was gained.

 
 
Notwendy and FF,
Your comments get to the heart of the dysfunction in our relationship. The biggest problem is the inability to have an open, honest and direct communication.

My therapist saw it. In a year of doing therapy with her, my husband's reaction was that my insistence upon seeing her was: 1. at the beginning, he thought I was seeking a divorce  2. then after a while, he thought it was because I wanted to "beat up" on him  3. at the end, he thought it was so the therapist and I could beat him up

Perhaps it's paranoia, but it seems he cannot tolerate anything that might appear critical. And how is it even possible to approach these big topics with that as a barrier?

This morning he seemed a bit down. Perhaps it was due to a hangover. He was starting out the door, headed to the store, when I asked him how he was doing. I said he seemed like he was in a hurry and if that was the case, I didn't want to slow him down, but I'd like to talk.

He sighed loudly and slammed the cloth grocery bags down on the breakfast nook table and sat down. I said, "I just enjoy talking with you." I asked if he was feeling down? He said he was. Then I asked if it was physical (pain-related) or emotional. He took a swig of water and then left.

This is the sort of communication I'm faced with. I'm just inquiring about his state. When he's like this, it's of no use trying to have a discussion about anything deep or real. Otherwise he interprets my interest as "hammering" him, "criticizing" him, "tearing" him apart, when from my perspective, I'm just trying to have an intimate conversation.

I really should have known from the beginning that he had a difficult time talking intimately. It was different when we first got together because there was no baggage and he was putting me on a pedestal. (If you don't know differently, how could anyone not love that? But when you understand more, then you are in the waiting mode--waiting for the devaluation to begin.)

[Cat Familiar]

I'm not sure that I do want to have physical intimacy with him again. Really, we're getting along fine mostly. He is a chronically depressed person. (I know that because I've known him long before we got involved. I always thought it was due to situational factors--his job, his previous marriage, etc.)

I've learned so much being here, doing therapy, reading extensively, that there is seldom conflict between us. It's not that I "stuff" my emotions either. I'm just realistic about who I'm dealing with.

I realize that even the most healthy relationships have issues. (This is theoretical on my part since I haven't had a healthy relationship since college days.) All in all, my life is good and I'm chronically happy.

Something my P has said is that marriages can take all sorts of shapes and forms. If ours is monastic and celibate, well, I guess that's OK. This is a statement that the younger me would never imagine making. Sexuality was such a burning concern many years ago. But at this point, I'm not really attracted to the person my husband is on a daily basis.

I suppose that I could find renewed attraction when he's on his good behavior, is not abusing alcohol, is happy and not being a sad sack. However the likelihood of all those factors falling into place is slim to none. But miracles do happen occasionally.

I do think having a conversation about the "scared of you" topic as well as questioning if he'd like a more physical relationship are worthy endeavors. I know that I have to choose my timing well or nothing good will come of it.

[formflier]

Certainly you would want to catch him in a good mood... .

"I'm interested in your thoughts on intimacy in our marriage... .

Listen...

FF

[Notwendy]

Cat- we have different H's but the communication styles are similar. The "hearing criticism" when it isn't there. The responses to questions and talking- " you're hammering me". I have heard that term so many times.

Like you, the courtship felt intimate, but the communication issues were there soon. I wish I had seen them, but in the beginning of relationships- other aspects are there- the physical for one and I think that made the communication issues not as much of an issue. We had our ups and downs, but once we started a family, things got really difficult- starting with the nausea of pregnancy that diminished the physical. As I said before- it had nothing to do with how I felt about him, but he made this into a major rejection of him and in return, rejected me back.

I knew I had come from a dysfunctional family ( his appeared perfectly normal compared to mine) and so when he blamed me for our issues, I assumed I was the problem. I had no clue what his family contributed to the issues. I learned later that- nobody talks directly in their family. A hallmark of some dysfunctional families is " don't talk, don't feel" and that was his. ( they are still less dysfunctional than my mother is). The statement in "Passionate Marriage" that we "match our partners" in dysfunction was an eye opener. I couldn't see the dysfunction in his family- it was more covert than in mine.

The kind of communication we are seeking or wishing for doesn't happen in my H's family. I do believe that children are taught to speak of feelings and he was not taught that. Yet, he had loving parents- they didn't talk but they did take great care of him. His mother loved her family through cooking, taking care of them and his father loved his family by providing for them. These are my H's "love languages".

Although I do cook, I don't associate it with love language. My mother didn't cook for us, so food for me is for survival and it is pleasurable but it isn't my love language. Mine is having intimate conversation. Go figure- we both lack the one love language the other one has. So- imagine this- I am too busy to cook one night. To me this means - hey honey, let's get take out. To my H this means-- REJECTION. If dinner=love, then no dinner=rejection. So each time I didn't cook dinner, I was unknowingly rejecting him.

I tried everything I could to "fix" my marriage. Read piles of books on marriage. But my H didn't read any of them and didn't seem to be interested. He also rejected any counseling. Eventually we hit crisis point and he had no choice. We did have a gifted counselor who helped him improve on communicating some, but I was still doing most of the "work " of fixing things. One thing the MC did was point out my co-dependency. I shifted focus on "fixing the marriage" to working on me. Stopped reading marriage books, stopped trying to figure my H out and just on being more authentic with him- no matter what the issues- and let him deal with how he interprets me. I can't change that anyway. The book I recommended had helped me to understand that my way- talking- may not be his way and to just accept that this is who he is. Your H may never be a talker  but he may have different love languages than you. What are they?

[Cat Familiar]

I knew I had come from a dysfunctional family ( his appeared perfectly normal compared to mine)... .nobody talks directly in their family. A hallmark of some dysfunctional families is " don't talk, don't feel" and that was his. ( they are still less dysfunctional than my mother is).

Notwendy,
Well, we share that too! When I first met his sisters, both of whom have professional degrees, I was really impressed by how seemingly "normal" they and their families were. I didn't see the hidden dysfunction that now is very apparent to me.

Nobody is willing to speak forthrightly in that family. I must truly be shocking to them because I just say what I think and feel. They're on the opposite coast, so I seldom see them, and therefore have not "gotten in trouble" with them, at least not that I know of. (Of course, they wouldn't tell me if I did!   )

Ironically quality time and physical touch are my husband's love languages, but perhaps due to Aspergers he is both hesitant to be touched and really needs a distraction to spend time with me--such as watching TV together. He also likes words of affirmation. Mine is acts of service. So I seldom get my love language fix since anything physical or demanding is perceived as a "chore" for him.

I've been trying to be more affectionate, validating and figuring out positive words of appreciation for him. Now that I've finally gotten through my anger and disappointment, it's a lot easier to be nice to him. I don't feel like I'm being phony or violating my own criteria. Being true to myself is such a bedrock tenet for me.  

Through the individual counseling I've done with the psychologist who was our marriage counselor some years ago, I've come to realize that he may never be capable of the kind of emotional intimacy that I thought was there at the beginning. I, too, mistook the physical relationship and all the excitement of a new love as being emotional intimacy, when it appeared to be that, rather than just
"newness" and infatuation. I've come to accept that what we have, though it doesn't fit my previous concept of what a relationship "should be" is fine, just as it is. There is room for improvement, but that is my job, I won't put the onus on him.

Thanks for your words of wisdom.

Cat

[formflier]

I am acts of service as well... .learned that from my Dad.  I tried to recreate that in my marriage and it "appeared" to work for a long time.

The "love story" I tried to recreate was what I saw play out between my parents.   Back in the day, when they were young and still renting a house they would take walks.  There was a spot with a particularly stunning view (Appalachian mountains) and my Mom would tell my Dad how much she liked it.  They would spend hours there enjoying each other and the view.

So... .my Dad bought the land and built her a house there.  Funny thing... .I showed up just over a year later...

My parents did the "happy wife... happy life" thing.  My Dad provided a nice home and then let her turn it into a home. 

If you guys remember a couple years ago we relocated close to her family.  I got the house for her that was her number 1 choice and assumed that would contribute to further healing in our marriage... .

Sigh... .

Sorry for hijack... .love languages are important to understand.

FF

[Notwendy]

Cat, I think you are doing some good work here.

I also wonder if he may be worried about a certain thing that can happen in middle age men and alcohol makes it worse.

My H doesn't drink, but work and middle age and hormone changes have changed things for him like menopause changes things for us. The difference is that it is more obvious with men and that bothers them. My H didn't talk about this but he also showed lack of interest. So underneath your H's bravado may also be fear that things aren't going to work the same as they did years ago.

Like you, I am pragmatic about mother nature and you work with what you have- but it is rough for some men.

It may be the Aspergers or the alcohol or middle age, but your attempts to be affectionate and kind will be noticed- no matter what happens.

FF, I think in general men are taught that being the provider is a way to show love. And it is. In some families that is the main thing. My FIL rarely spoke to anyone, but he was loyal, steady, provided for his family- they were not wealthy but he worked hard. MIL was a homemaker. They had their quirks but were happy together.

I wanted the talking too, but my H had no role model for that.

Ironically, I didn't have a homemaker role model. I took on all these roles in my home, but I wasn't really good at them. I am a good cook, but I had a career and home making was not my focus. It is interesting how we both were not proficient at each other's love language.

With BPD though, I think that lack of self love and an inner life of turmoil makes it difficult for an "act of love" to be received. You did provide for your wife, but it can't change her perceptions.

[Fian]

I'm not sure that I do want to have physical intimacy with him again. Really, we're getting along fine mostly. He is a chronically depressed person. (I know that because I've known him long before we got involved. I always thought it was due to situational factors--his job, his previous marriage, etc.)

It sounds like that although you don't need it, he does.  He may never be able to discuss it with you, but he does have needs.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm not sure that I do want to have physical intimacy with him again. Really, we're getting along fine mostly.

Glad you are OK with it. And if he isn't OK with it, or stops being OK with it, he's unlikely to address it in a direct, open conversation... .but you know the tools to manage whatever he does do/say, should it come up.

I've come to realize that he may never be capable of the kind of emotional intimacy

I've come to accept that what we have, though it doesn't fit my previous concept of what a relationship "should be" is fine, just as it is.

I'm glad to hear about your acceptance of who he is and what he has to offer. And you've got good tools to manage living with him, improving the r/s, within his capacity, at least.

As you continue to live your own life more authentically, be prepared to find either that it still is enough for you... .or perhaps that you feel it isn't enough for you. Be open to your feelings--whatever direction they come in.

[Cat Familiar]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I just finished listening to a YouTube audio of Ashley Burges talking about BPD. She was extremely negative, for a mental health practitioner, and basically proposed "Leave" as the best possible solution.

I have no plans to do that and I feel there are positives in my relationship that make it worthwhile. Also I feel that I can be myself and I'm not walking on eggshells. What did resonate with me in her message was the concept that people with BPD try to maintain their grip on power. I see that in my husband when he sees things in terms of Win/Lose. Lots of times he will use those terms during silly disagreements, like when I say the local market stays open until 10 and he thinks it closes at 9. For me, it's not a "win" when he calls them and confirms my opinion--it's really of no consequence, but it seems that he feels diminished if he's "wrong."

FF, you were incredibly lucky to grow up with a healthy model of a loving relationship. My dad was an "Acts of Service" guy and I've now realized he was Aspergers too.

Notwendy, I think my mother was very similar to yours, just with the volume turned down. Lots of my childhood friends thought she was great and didn't realize that she was a different person with just my dad and me.

My husband has a lot of strikes against him regarding physical intimacy. I wouldn't know if ED factors in now, but certainly aging and alcohol abuse don't help. Years ago when sex came naturally, he would have neck and back problems after oral sex, so it started to make me less interested, thinking in the moment that he would be injuring himself. (More TMI) Now with his hip problem, I wonder if regular sex would even be possible.

You are absolutely spot on that the self loathing of a pwBPD makes receiving love difficult.

Fian, I don't doubt that he "needs it" but I do see a half empty container of hand lotion in his studio and he doesn't use that on his hands! Or maybe he does... .  Really, if this even somewhat resembled a "normal" relationship, I wouldn't be posting here and these issues would have been resolved long ago. It's just the inability to communicate "normally" that's the root of the problem.

I've started being more physically affectionate: hugging him, pressing up against him, kissing him. I'm still attractive (guys 20 years younger flirt with me), I'm an athlete, slim, strong, healthy. What's not to like? So if he has any sense of attraction for me remaining, you'd think nature would take its course. No pressure. I'm just there, being friendly and nice.

Grey Kitty, good to see you! You are right. The odds of him addressing our lack of a sexual relationship are nil. I'm going to keep on being sweet and friendly and keep upping the ante, very very slowly. That way I can see what's there on his part and not pressure him. At some point, when he seems more open and relaxed, I can bring up the topic verbally, and do it in a very gradual way, so as to not spook him. (I guess my animal training background is coming in handy. I know the easiest way to backtrack with an animal is to push too fast for a desired outcome.) 

Time will tell what this relationship will offer. I certainly no longer have expectations that it will resemble the romantic fantasy it was at the beginning. He is a good person, in spite of his moodiness and the BPD. And I can accept him the way he is and perhaps we'll have more intimacy, both emotional and physical later, or not.

[Notwendy]

The right/wrong game. That drives me crazy. I may be speaking about something and make an estimate like it was about 2:30 pm or it was about $10. The number isn't the main point, the topic is. Then I will get a response like " It was 2:45! or it was $10.50! Just to correct me, and it's crazy making. Or he will point out the slightest mistake. I've done most of the housework, raised the kids- all of it. Yet, he will point out the smallest thing at the end of the day- like "you left the garage light on" and that becomes " you ALWAYS leave the lights on. My H isn't a lawyer, but I have said he'd make a good one. A law case could be won by 15 minutes difference in evidence and the alibi, but not a marriage. Crimes need to be punished. But a small error is not a crime. Yet your H has turned this trait into a successful career- it is what he is good at. Mine is good at details.

You are an animal person. I think caring for animals and raising children take different skills. Our focus is broader- like the animal isn't acting like itself- is it feeling OK? Or a child comes home from school crying over a bully. You don't say " you left the light on" at that time, to the child. The focus is listening to the child and validating them. I have these skills- and I would be a terrible lawyer.

I've learned to ignore the detail arguments, or just stop the conversation when I feel irritated.

I think you are doing great by still being affectionate with your H. If he has back and neck issues, maybe a back rub would get him thinking.  Yes, he has needs, but if they are being taken care of by his hand lotion friend, then he may not respond sexually. His own drive may be diminished but hopefully he will get the idea.

[Cat Familiar]

The right/wrong game. That drives me crazy. I may be speaking about something and make an estimate like it was about 2:30 pm or it was about $10. The number isn't the main point, the topic is. Then I will get a response like " It was 2:45! or it was $10.50! Just to correct me, and it's crazy making. Or he will point out the slightest mistake.

I've just had a new insight on these types of games; I've often thought they were designed to put me down, but now I think it's a way of lifting himself up. Another annoying pastime my husband engages in is to walk out the door when I start talking about something that's not a "triggering" topic. Sure, maybe he was headed to his studio to watch TV or needed to return an email, but the message it sends to me is that "you're not important enough to keep my attention."

I've tried a variety of strategies with this one, now that I'm no longer triggered: 1. I quit talking mid-sentence  2. I say, "Gosh, I didn't mean to take up your time"   3. I ignore it  and 4. This is an approach I haven't tried yet--I start speaking really softly.

Approach #2 makes him realize that he's being really rude and then he feels guilty, so I can't use it very often. And strategy #4 is something he does, often when he starts speaking to me from another room, and then I'll have to stop what I'm doing and walk over to where he is, so that I can hear him.

I'm not really interested in playing this game, and now, writing about it, I see the underlying sorts of feelings he likely is having. To me, it looks like a power trip or that he's trying to make me feel diminished. But I think for him, he's feeling really unimportant and unnoticed, and it's a way of getting attention and feeling better about himself.

It's all so complicated... .and I feel like I'm so simple and direct.  

[formflier]

The right/wrong game. That drives me crazy. I may be speaking about something and make an estimate like it was about 2:30 pm or it was about $10. The number isn't the main point, the topic is. Then I will get a response like " It was 2:45! or it was $10.50! Just to correct me, and it's crazy making. Or he will point out the slightest mistake.
 
It's all so complicated... .and I feel like I'm so simple and direct.  

Cat Familiar,

In many ways, I feel we approach life/relationships in a similar manner.  I really like being direct and removing all doubt as to what I'm trying to communicate. 

For a long time I've had problems with tone and posture when being direct... .it would come across to a sensitive person as an attack.  Now I try to stay "friendly" and be direct.  It's a work in progress.

What I do now to the "walk away" thing that happens in my marriage as well.

imagine a friendly, inquisitive, warm tone to all of this... .

"Oh goodness, I have important things to say directly to you, when is a good time for you."

blah blah blah no time is good

"That's confusing to me... .help me understand when and how we communicate directly about important issues in our marriage."

blah blah blah... blather

"It would seem we both need time to reflect on direct communications...   I'll check back with you tomorrow afternoon... "

Then... tomorrow afternoon, I have a much more limited conversation and try to "nudge" some issue in the right direction. 

Big picture I show her a friendly but direct "frontal assault" and when she prepares for that "assault" to continue the next day I switch to a friendly "flanking" movement that offers a lot of "relief" to her while still moving something in a healthy direction.

Manipulative?  Yep... .  So be it... .

Many times I see myself in a tussle with my wife's FOO about how much dysfunction my kids will grow up with.  While I accept it is unrealistic for them to be exposed to none, I think it possible to get them a lot closer to "healthy".

Thoughts?  Think this could work with your hubby.

Last thought... .I like many of your horse training analogies, especially how to deal with a spooked horse.

I would challenge you to think about how to train a horse that "spooks easily"... .to train that horse to not spook.  Or "be less spookable "  (another new FF word)

FF

[Cat Familiar]

For a long time I've had problems with tone and posture when being direct... .it would come across to a sensitive person as an attack.  Now I try to stay "friendly" and be direct.  It's a work in progress.


I totally relate, FF. Lots of times I get really enthusiastic having figured something out and my pace is too fast and I'm leaning forward and feeling happy and excited and he interprets this as an attack. Then I've caught myself trying to justify it and explain--and game over... .

"Oh goodness, I have important things to say directly to you, when is a good time for you."


I like this strategy. It's only been recently that I haven't gotten offended to some degree when the walking away thing happens. It works well when I offer him an offramp to the conversation. Lots of times he'll stick around and continue on.

I think he's ultra sensitive to control issues and if he thinks I'm trying to control him by requesting a conversation when he's not keen on doing so, then he's eager to shut that down. Also he's sort of a "polarity person". I could easily manipulate him by asking/doing the opposite of what I want--but that's too crazy making for me.

I like your shifting from assault to flanking maneuvers.

Having tried a variety of strategies over the years for desensitizing horses, I've decided that some horses may always be frightened by certain things, as much as I've tried to get them over it. (Horsey PTSD) My old gelding is terrified of bicycles--rather an inconvenient fear. I've done things like making him touch my bicycle with his nose in order to get food, then upped it to touch the spinning front wheel. But nothing prepares him for when a bicycle appears out of the blue. He will spin around quickly and hunker down and at least he doesn't gallop off anymore. So I'm always prepared for a sudden move and I never let my guard down, which is a good strategy to always have with horses (and probably in general.)

With my husband, I realize that there are numerous triggers that elicit a predictably reliable reaction, so I steer clear of those. I don't imagine any of them will ever change. He's not in counseling and he has a habit of not wanting to think about anything that makes him uncomfortable. So I imagine he will always be susceptible to getting dysregulated by those triggers.

The old school way of training horses was to "break" them and to overly expose them to things they were afraid of. The less emotional ones who had more emotional intelligence got through it all much better than the frightened, overly emotional ones who often turned into uncontrollable nutcases.

Nowadays we "start" horses and respect that they have limits. We are strong leaders, but we acknowledge their fears and hesitations, rather than force them to do things they fear. We encourage them to explore and investigate, because they are curious creatures, and we establish trust, letting them know that we'd never make them do something unsafe. We gently support their choice to investigate trying something scary, and give them generous feedback for being brave. We don't push them past their limits, but give them appreciation for the slightest try.

I'm much better with animals than I am with humans, but I'm learning... .

[formflier]

Thread hijack for horses... .yes there is an exception for this in the bpdfamily rules... .I'm sure you will find it... should you go look!    

My daughter is getting her undegrad degree in Natural Horsemanship.  I'm now coming to understand that I was "decent" to "average" in my knowledge of horses, training... and all that.

Completely fascinating to learn from and through her all the goodies she is picking up.

I think she has good chance of making a go of it in the horse world and she has a good head on her shoulders and is planning master's work in another field, should she have to eventually find a real job (or have someone other than FF) finance her horse habit.

Critical because with four daughters... .FF horse habit financing future looks rather high... . 

OK... .moderators... .move along.  Hijack over.  Nothing to see here...

FF

[formflier]

Cat,

The serious response... .

I think if you focus on how you trained the bicycle horse and your attitude with that horse, you can find a place to build on with your hubby.

Chances he will ever be a normal "horse"?... .right... .we know that... .  But it sounds like you still like to ride the bicycle horse... .so hopefully you can learn to ride your hubby horse again too.
 
Maybe the first ride of the hubby horse with a saddle with a bigger horn... .so it's easier to hang on if he starts bucking.  Safe riding is important.  Perhaps later you learn to ride hubby horse bareback.

Ummm... yeah... .horse analogy over... .why am I grinning... .

FF

[Cat Familiar]

FF,   Maybe I'll ride the hubbyhorse again someday indeed! Bareback!  

That's great about your daughter getting a degree in Natural Horsemanship. There is an endless amount to learn--it's fascinating. I hope she's had some classes in marketing and business. People who make a living with horses need those skills. And psychology, of course. I think it's harder to train people to ride horses than it is to train horses. And then there are all these weird ego trip things with people and horses.   But not with horses and people. They just want to feel secure and trust us and if they don't, they let us know very clearly.  

I have a chiropractic appointment next week for my horses with a vet who does that as well as Chinese medicine. Some years ago she told me that, unlike people, for whom chiropractic adjustments often don't stick and need to be repeated over and over, horses don't somatize (hold within their bodies) their psychological distress, and therefore the adjustments stay true.

I was having problems with getting one of my horses to canter and after an adjustment, he immediately went back to cantering and I haven't had further issues.

How nice it would be if humans could get over their problems as easily!

[Grey Kitty]

The right/wrong game. That drives me crazy. I may be speaking about something and make an estimate like it was about 2:30 pm or it was about $10. The number isn't the main point, the topic is. Then I will get a response like " It was 2:45! or it was $10.50! Just to correct me, and it's crazy making.

UGH. Sadly, I was raised in that one. I'm all too aware because right now I'm staying with my parents, and they do it every day. (Note: My parents don't seem to qualify as mentally ill in any way, just 'normal' people with family dysfunctions and emotional unavailability)

The way it works here is that my parents get into some argument like that, or one about whether something specific was in 2007 or 2009... .what drives me nuts is how my mom sounds so scornful and disdainful of my dad when he's wrong, and he tries to apologize to get it over with faster.

Actually scorn/apology cycle happens a lot when my dad just does or says something, and my mom 'makes' him wrong. Several times a day. Sigh.

Thinking about it, it is no wonder I spent so much of my marriage being told that I did something wrong that hurt my ex, and it was my fault, I was intending to hurt her, and made me question my sanity because I knew it wasn't my intention to hurt her with it.

That damn pattern was modeled to me for most of my life, and what is really weird is that I didn't even notice my parents doing it until my wife (who did it to me!) pointed it out the first time 10 or 15 years ago.