Conversation with my exuBPD married lover

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I have decided to post a conversation I had with my ex last night. Those of you who know my story will understand the emotions at play here. It has been a very difficult situation to deal with my own emotions around an affair that has been off and on for many years - the most recent recycle over the last 5 years. I tried to walk away 5 months ago and reconnected when she told me that she had attempted to take her own life. She also said that it was my fault.

Can I ask for people to refrain from commenting on the morality of two married people being involved with each other. It is something I am aware of and have considered at great length. Could any responders also refrain from laying into me about my manipulation of her as if I am some kind of predatory male. I am also aware there is manipulation involved and I am trying not to do this myself. By all means point it out, just be gentle about it, I am not here to be attacked.

I am trying to deal with my own extreme emotions here, while also trying not to reignite any feud between us. I have made great progress since I have been on here and am trying to be more compassionate and understanding, while trying to get my own voice heard. I have been deeply in love with this woman for years. It is in my nature to threaten to walk away when I hear something I don't like - I am trying not to do that. I want some kind of r/s with my ex but it is hard to negotiate past my own love and carnal desire.

Anyway, at the risk of putting my emotional health on the line, here is the conversation:

Me: Why aren't you talking to me at the moment?

Her: I am struggling with everything. Trying to find a reason to get out of bed in the morning.

Me: I was reading up about the AA expression, This Too Shall Pass and it comes from an ancient parable about King Soloman asking his wise men to come up with something that would make him happy when he was sad and vice versa. Apparently they came up with This Too Shall Pass and he was so delighted with it that he had it inscribed on a ring. I thought that was a wonderful little parable.

Her: I should have that tattooed on my head.

Me: Are you going to tell me anything about your life?

Her: I'm not doing anything different from always. Just youngest causing problems and eldest concerns.

Me: That is very vague. The way I see it, you have full access to my FB but tell me literally nothing about your life. In the past it has led me to think you had someone else. I have no idea about your thoughts, desires, mindset, other than you say you are struggling. It has been a horrendous year between you and I and every time I try to get close you pull away. I am tired of the feeling of giving my love, understanding and details of my life to you with nothing in return. So give me a little insight into your world because God knows I've bloody earnt it.

Her: There is nothing to my life. I go to 4 AA meetings a week, am working my way through the steps with my sponsor, do shifts at a suicide prevention charity and go nowhere socially. My eldest is mixing with dodgy musicians and micro-dosing. My daughter is now a doctor and my youngest goes to work. Everyday is a fight to get him there and to get him to stay - he makes life a living hell with his moods and my husband seems to be falling apart mentally and physically. I am in debt up to my eyeballs and every day I have to will myself to keep going. Anything else you want to know?

Me: That is at least some insight. I am sorry all of that is weighing you down. But I am here still. And I miss you.

Her: You have got on with your life, as you must, where mine has stalled completely and looks bleaker by the day. This too will pass? Perhaps one day... .

Me: Getting on with my life doesn't mean not wanting you. You seem to think I have stopped loving you. Nothing could be further from the truth. My life is no different to when you and I reconnected. My feelings are also still the same. I don't know if that means anything to you anymore but that's how it is.

Her: Of course it means everything to me but I feel so lost and alone and isolated. I miss being noticed and valued.

Me: You are noticed and valued - by me. The irony of our situation is that you don't feel the same about me. Or you would never feel alone.

Her: Don't tell me what I think please, only I know that. I have to go - nite x

Me: Then enlighten me - I just told you that I notice and value you - why isn't that enough?

Her: I can't see or feel or experience that can I?

Me: You have done many times. I have given all my love and energy to you these past 5 years.  When you say you want to be noticed I assume you mean by other men? Why aren't I enough? I feel this is the crux of all your issues. It is you that doesn't value yourself - and possibly you don't realise the love I bear you is exactly what you say you are missing. Perhaps you don't realise that you don't need to be admired by the world at large - to be loved by one person (if it is requited) can sustain a lifetime. You just don't know how to do that. You can't love another until you love yourself. When you can feel and value my love you will no longer feel alone. That I guarantee you. If you could feel that, you'd jump out of bed in the mornings whatever your circumstances.

Please bear in mind, that this was a woman who has sworn undying love to me over the years. Has begged me to call her when on holidays. Has told me that she tried to take her own life because I 'turned my back on her.'

It may appear from this conversation that I am the clingy, needy one, but it has often been the other way round. I find myself at a loss as how to interpret this conversation and shocked that after everything we have been through, her big concern is being noticed by other men.

Her big thing has been her body dysmorphia. Despite being beautiful she has always told me that she feels ugly and unattractive. I have always told her how beautiful and intelligent she is but no amount of positive reinforcement has ever touched the sides of her self loathing.

She once told me that she was very confident regarding her looks when she was in her 20's but it seems as soon as she got to mid 30's the self criticism began.

[RomanticFool]

I have decided to post a conversation I had with my ex last night. Those of you who know my story will understand the emotions at play here. It has been a very difficult situation to deal with my own emotions around an affair that has been off and on for many years - the most recent recycle over the last 5 years. I tried to walk away 5 months ago and reconnected when she told me that she had attempted to take her own life. She also said that it was my fault.

Can I ask for people to refrain from commenting on the morality of two married people being involved with each other. It is something I am aware of and have considered at great length. Could any responders also refrain from laying into me about my manipulation of her as if I am some kind of predatory male. I am also aware there is manipulation involved and I am trying not to do this myself. By all means point it out, just be gentle about it, I am not here to be attacked.

I am trying to deal with my own extreme emotions here, while also trying not to reignite any feud between us. I have made great progress since I have been on here and am trying to be more compassionate and understanding, while trying to get my own voice heard. I have been deeply in love with this woman for years. It is in my nature to threaten to walk away when I hear something I don't like - I am trying not to do that. I want some kind of r/s with my ex but it is hard to negotiate past my own love and carnal desire.

Anyway, at the risk of putting my emotional health on the line, here is the conversation:

Me: Why aren't you talking to me at the moment?

Her: I am struggling with everything. Trying to find a reason to get out of bed in the morning.

Me: I was reading up about the AA expression, This Too Shall Pass and it comes from an ancient parable about King Soloman asking his wise men to come up with something that would make him happy when he was sad and vice versa. Apparently they came up with This Too Shall Pass and he was so delighted with it that he had it inscribed on a ring. I thought that was a wonderful little parable.

Her: I should have that tattooed on my head.

Me: Are you going to tell me anything about your life?

Her: I'm not doing anything different from always. Just youngest causing problems and eldest concerns.

Me: That is very vague. The way I see it, you have full access to my FB but tell me literally nothing about your life. In the past it has led me to think you had someone else. I have no idea about your thoughts, desires, mindset, other than you say you are struggling. It has been a horrendous year between you and I and every time I try to get close you pull away. I am tired of the feeling of giving my love, understanding and details of my life to you with nothing in return. So give me a little insight into your world because God knows I've bloody earnt it.

Her: There is nothing to my life. I go to 4 AA meetings a week, am working my way through the steps with my sponsor, do shifts at a suicide prevention charity and go nowhere socially. My eldest is mixing with dodgy musicians and micro-dosing. My daughter is now a doctor and my youngest goes to work. Everyday is a fight to get him there and to get him to stay - he makes life a living hell with his moods and my husband seems to be falling apart mentally and physically. I am in debt up to my eyeballs and every day I have to will myself to keep going. Anything else you want to know?

Me: That is at least some insight. I am sorry all of that is weighing you down. But I am here still. And I miss you.

Her: You have got on with your life, as you must, where mine has stalled completely and looks bleaker by the day. This too will pass? Perhaps one day... .

Me: Getting on with my life doesn't mean not wanting you. You seem to think I have stopped loving you. Nothing could be further from the truth. My life is no different to when you and I reconnected. My feelings are also still the same. I don't know if that means anything to you anymore but that's how it is.

Her: Of course it means everything to me but I feel so lost and alone and isolated. I miss being noticed and valued.

Me: You are noticed and valued - by me. The irony of our situation is that you don't feel the same about me. Or you would never feel alone.

Her: Don't tell me what I think please, only I know that. I have to go - nite x

Me: Then enlighten me - I just told you that I notice and value you - why isn't that enough?

Her: I can't see or feel or experience that can I?

Me: You have done many times. I have given all my love and energy to you these past 5 years.  When you say you want to be noticed I assume you mean by other men? Why aren't I enough? I feel this is the crux of all your issues. It is you that doesn't value yourself - and possibly you don't realise the love I bear you is exactly what you say you are missing. Perhaps you don't realise that you don't need to be admired by the world at large - to be loved by one person (if it is requited) can sustain a lifetime. You just don't know how to do that. You can't love another until you love yourself. When you can feel and value my love you will no longer feel alone. That I guarantee you. If you could feel that, you'd jump out of bed in the mornings whatever your circumstances.

Please bear in mind, that this was a woman who has sworn undying love to me over the years. Has begged me to call her when on holidays. Has told me that she tried to take her own life because I 'turned my back on her.'

It may appear from this conversation that I am the clingy, needy one, but it has often been the other way round. I find myself at a loss as how to interpret this conversation and shocked that after everything we have been through, her big concern is being noticed by other men.

Her big thing has been her body dysmorphia. Despite being beautiful she has always told me that she feels ugly and unattractive. I have always told her how beautiful and intelligent she is but no amount of positive reinforcement has ever touched the sides of her self loathing.

She once told me that she was very confident regarding her looks when she was in her 20's but it seems as soon as she got to mid 30's the self criticism began.

[babyducks]

RF,

here is my two cents.   granted there is no tone of voice in text, neither mine, yours or hers so this is just my opinion from the other end of the internet.   for what it's worth.

Her big thing has been her body dysmorphia. Despite being beautiful she has always told me that she feels ugly and unattractive. I have always told her how beautiful and intelligent she is but no amount of positive reinforcement has ever touched the sides of her self loathing.

well no.   it wouldn't.   and it's not going to either.  If I said to you RF I feel like a total failure and you said but 'ducks you've got a degree in XYZ and a long career and rattled off a list of reasons why I shouldn't feel like a failure, I am going to actually feel worse.   I am going to feel like a failure and unheard.    what would help me more is active listening... .ducks why do you feel like a failure when that's not something I see?    'ducks, that's got to be a hard thing to struggle with, what do you think is going on?    

people with the traits of BPD have high validation needs (actually so do we but for different reasons) high validation needs means the feelings are more important than the facts... .the need to be heard and not invalidated is significant.   the theory is that one invalidation statement can do more damage than 15 validating statements can add positive.

Me: Why aren't you talking to me at the moment?

Her: I am struggling with everything. Trying to find a reason to get out of bed in the morning.

Me: I was reading up about the AA expression, This Too Shall Pass and it comes from an ancient parable about King Soloman asking his wise men to come up with something that would make him happy when he was sad and vice versa. Apparently they came up with This Too Shall Pass and he was so delighted with it that he had it inscribed on a ring. I thought that was a wonderful little parable.

Her: I should have that tattooed on my head.

There may be no tone of voice in text but I can see the depression in this snippet.    She is talking to you, as best she can.   She is telling you she is so depressed she is shutting down.   She has no energy, no enthusiasm, no interest.   She can barely communicate and this has nothing to do with you.   She can't get out of bed.

while the parable is nice,... .it can leave her feeling invalidated.    I read this as she said I feel rotten and you said well don't worry about it, eventually you will get over it.    I know that wasn't your intention.   In a conversation with a less fragile individual it might have been fine but for a person who deals with the heighten sensitivity of BPD that pretty much said stop whining about your problems and get over it already.  she then slams herself - I should have that tattooed because I am so stupid I can't get something this simple.    

Me: Are you going to tell me anything about your life?

Her: I'm not doing anything different from always. Just youngest causing problems and eldest concerns.

Here you had the opportunity to be the emotional leader and ask questions.   What's going on with the youngest?    I remember when the youngest did XYZ,  is it like that again?   I don't know if this was a live conversation between the two of you and you had the opportunity to read physical signals but again I see depression.   I see the character from Pooh -  Eeyore.  

Me: That is very vague. The way I see it, you have full access to my FB but tell me literally nothing about your life. In the past it has led me to think you had someone else. I have no idea about your thoughts, desires, mindset, other than you say you are struggling. It has been a horrendous year between you and I and every time I try to get close you pull away. I am tired of the feeling of giving my love, understanding and details of my life to you with nothing in return. So give me a little insight into your world because God knows I've bloody earnt it.

Oy RF.  Oy Oy Oy.    To her this probably felt like... .well I said I was depressed he didn't care and now we are back to talking about what is important to him... .his needs.   I can't get out of bed in the morning and now I am failing some one else  etc etc

RF I don't care if she is married to 6 other people and you are too.   I'm lesbian and many people would tell me that my relationships aren't "appropriate".   So no judgement here.   Still I need to say you have to meet people where they are.    And where she is right now is with a very low capacity to give.   She also has a very low capacity to receive.   No doubt there are bunches of reasons for that and most of them she won't be able to express.   not now and maybe not ever.    

Her: There is nothing to my life. I go to 4 AA meetings a week, am working my way through the steps with my sponsor, do shifts at a suicide prevention charity and go nowhere socially. My eldest is mixing with dodgy musicians and micro-dosing. My daughter is now a doctor and my youngest goes to work. Everyday is a fight to get him there and to get him to stay - he makes life a living hell with his moods and my husband seems to be falling apart mentally and physically. I am in debt up to my eyeballs and every day I have to will myself to keep going. Anything else you want to know?

Me: That is at least some insight. I am sorry all of that is weighing you down. But I am here still. And I miss you.

so she opens up a little because you've pushed her too and you what?   circle back to your needs and belittle her difficulties... .at least some insight?   Holy Smokes Batman I would have hung up on you for that one.   what do you think would have happened if you said... .oh thanks so much for telling me that.    it means so much to me when we talk at this level... .can we pick part of that and talk about it for a minute what is going with... .

Me: Then enlighten me - I just told you that I notice and value you - why isn't that enough?

so she is trying to end the conversation and you hit her with a verbal hammer.   She is trying to exit the conversation to deal with her emotions.  

What do you know about BPD?   I mean really know?  

pwBPD experience self loathing and shame at unbelievable levels.    You can't tell them I love you, hence you should feel lovable.   It's invalidating.   Massively invalidating.   for a person without this disorder it might be helpful but a person who processes life, processes information through the filter of this illness it tells them the are unlovable and too stupid to see the obvious.

have you read the workshops here on validation?    

and for what its worth I do not see the conversation referring to other men... .I see it referring to her and her state,... she doesn't experience the feeling of value and worth because 1) she is depressed, 2) she has the traits of BPD,   she has troubles in her life.   this has nothing to do with you or your feelings.   you can't fix this for her,... you can't love her out of this,... .

my two cents
'ducks

[pearlsw]

Hi RomanticFool, I've never seen your posts before so I am just catching up! I am not and would not judge you. I know how hard all relationships can be and how complicated love can get. I have compassion for your pain and difficulties as you try to sort this all out, okay? In your other post I just found ducks comments helpful/insightful in a general sense. You posted under conflicted/just tolerating, do I understand correctly that you working through whether you want to keep going with this or not?

[pearlsw]

And, for what it's worth, ducks gave you a really insighteful read of this conversation. But let me add a little extra gentleness to my echoing her analysis. Working on communication takes a lot of work. I do it all the time. For example, I think I was not patient enough and a bit short tempered yesterday with my partner, so I tried to fix it as fast as I could. That is the best I can do. I am not perfect. Neither are you, and that is okay! We are all in this process of improvement together. Take some of this to heart and you'll do better next time too.

[RomanticFool]

Hi babyducks,

Thank you for taking the time and trouble to reply to me. I very much appreciate the insight.

What you seem to be saying to me is that I have to take myself out of the equation. I am an AA member and we often quote the St Francis prayer. I am in no way religious but I do find this passage of great value:

Lord, grant that I may seek rather to comfort, than to be comforted.

To understand, than to be understood.

To love, than to be loved.

For it is by self-forgetting that one finds.

It is by forgiving that one is forgiven.

There is a strange paradox at work here. I am usually a very empathic person where others are concerned. I can sit down and listen to a person's troubles for hours and provide a sympathetic ear.

I am struggling to do this with my ex because the stakes are so high and I have invested (I hate that word but it is appropriate) so much of my love, hopes and dreams in her that I struggle to be unconditionally understanding. I'm sure at times I have acted rather like her torturer. Part of this is that I never understood BPD until recently and the other part of it is that I find it impossible to take St Francis' advice. This r/s has affected me so profoundly that I want to re-evaluate my whole approach to people, particularly those afflicted or struggling.

However, what I struggle to do is take my emotions out of the equation. I essentially have to become a caregiver and make no demands or have no expectations from this woman. As I have also discussed with Skip on here, I may simply have to become her confidante and shoulder to lean on. Radical acceptance.  Either that or release with grace, but that just doesn't seem to be possible on either side. I really do feel stuck between a rock and a hard place.

If I just become her friend, I am letting go of any hopes and dreams I have that we could end up together. I have to accept that she may find somebody else or deteriorate mentally and there is nothing that I can do about either. That is a hard ask but perhaps I am more capable of that and perhaps it is more an act of love than simply washing my hands of her. I don't know.

As your reply to my post has pointed out so clearly, I have an empathy bypass during our conversations but I am so desperate to have my own needs fulfilled. Every time I hear from her my heart leaps. Just last week we were discussing the possibility of meeting up again, albeit in her neck of the woods. Whenever she mentions her AA sponsor or anybody else she spends time with I get pangs of jealousy and regret that I cannot be with her. It seems to me that I have to let go of all of that. It is a very very difficult thing to do when I am still in contact but ousting her from my life seemed brutal and to hurt her deeply.

Anyway, I studied your responses to my conversation with her and came up with this as a reply. She has yet to reply to it today, which may be due to her feeling angry at my responses last night, or simply she is busy. In any case, I hope this is some improvement on what has gone before:

I just want to say something that I hope is helpful to you. I do appreciate you opening up and telling me how you feel and how your life is going. I know my replies can seem as if all I care about is myself sometimes, but I am struggling too.

Regarding everything we discussed last night, I know you are under a great deal of pressure. I hear what you are saying about the family problems, specifically with your son.

I also hear what you are saying about not feeling valued in life and feeling down. Perhaps some of my responses to you aren't always helpful, but I do consider you and think about what you say to me.

Life is a struggle for you right now - and has been for some time. If you didn't know it before then I hope you know that you can always turn to me whatever you feel.

[RomanticFool]

Hi Pearlsw,

Thank you for your response too. I think the reality of what I have been dealing with all of these years is finally sinking in. I have been behaving like a bull in a china shop with her because I knew very little about BPD and become empathically impaired when emotionally engaged. I think I have always known that about myself subconsciously but just not been able to articulate it. It stymies any kind of emotional intelligence or growth because these emotional responses are so extreme in me. Possibly BPD traits, I really don't know. I wouldn't be at all surprised.

I see it in myself the way I react to certain things people say on here too. I have always normalised it because I have seen people behave on FB or in their cars in exactly the same way. I'm sure not everybody who gets road rage or FB rage suffers from BPD traits. However, I think when I visit this on a person whom I love and is suffering, I have to look at myself seriously.

The trouble is throughout my history with the ex, it has felt like she is playing games and being deceitful and dishonest. Unfortunately, these are some of the behaviours that accompany BPD.  However, I may actually be wrong about her. I have no real evidence that she has ever cheated on me, more than likely she has simply been preoccupied with family life and her own demons.

Even if she has, that wouldn't necessarily change my desire to be more compassionate. Going around raging or trying to make somebody bend to one's will, is not really a strategy for a happy existence. I need to work on my compassion, specifically in regard to my ex - no matter what she does. Aside from not exacerbating her issues, it will perhaps make me a more rounded and emotionally intelligent human being.

I have read a great deal about BPD and NPD. I have studied much of the literature on here, but nothing can really prepare you for how to mend and move on from a broken heart, while staying in contact with the person who broke it. That has always struck me as masochistic... .but it now strikes me as the most emotionally healthy place to be - if I can ever get there.

[Sunfl0wer]

Already love what babyducks has expressed!

Just wanted to comment on this little bit:

If I just become her friend, I am letting go of any hopes and dreams I have that we could end up together.

Do you find this to be a truth? Or a personal belief?
Possibly this above statement may be driving much of your own behavior.
Is the reality really so all or nothing?

I once heard a quote:
If you love somebody
Set them free
If they come back to you
They are yours
If they don't
It was never meant to be

Now, I personally see the above saying, with lots of greyness.  However, the point that I may need to release my grip on wanting something a certain way, relax a bit, and see where things naturally would evolve had I not been gripping so tightly, imo, is a valid thought worth considering.

[RomanticFool]

Sunfl0wer,

You have hit the nail on the head:

I may need to release my grip on wanting something a certain way, relax a bit, and see where things naturally would evolve had I not been gripping so tightly

This is the crux of the issue and so much of it is driven by sexual desire. There has been a bit of distancing in the past five months and the intensity of my obsession is beginning to wane, though it is still a strongly burning ember, which could enflame once more at any given moment.

This lady is my sexual nirvana. She is also somebody I find to be vulnerable and damaged and I need to see her in those terms rather than as a lover now. As she stated in our conversation, she feels as if her life has stalled due to the family problems she is experiencing, which are clearly exacerbating her mental health problems. The only real role for me in all of this is as a soother, otherwise I am not useful to her.

[pearlsw]

Hi RomanticFool, Thank you for your nice note. Reading through all this is helping me with stuff I'm processing with an ex myself.

For what it is worth, I don't think I'd have the strength to completely cut off someone I loved with such intensity who had attempted suicide at any point. That is tough! But even if you did pull away, it really is not about you, okay? It is much, much bigger than you - these health issues and what you can do about them from your position.

In a relationship that has built in constraints, you are both with other people, and can't find a way to be together (that is very, very painful and I am so sorry for this!), you have a built in dynamic of not being able to give each other what one might hope for under the "best" of circumstances, but still... .we naturally try to "normalize" a relationship and make it work and get our needs met, but there are simply too many in the mix (4 people) for it to be what it could be if other fates prevailed. Sigh.  And it so hard to give up on something/someone who our heart wants and who wants us and won't let us go either. And there is seemingly no way out of your bind that isn't incredibly painful, the loss is too hard to comprehend because dreams die hard. I get it. But like another poster said, somehow embrace the freedom this gives you to not be so... .to not hold onto it so tight. Let this be a meditation on not being able to control a relationship, or life for that matter. You can make lots of choices, but can't control it overall. It is like in zen when you see you have no control, that actually gives you a lot of freedom from suffering actually, helps you release it.

It seems like you are onto an important notion, you either have to learn to "radically accept" this for what is possible in this context, or... .mentally train yourself (with lots of hard, hard work) to see her as only a friend so you can give yourself some mental relief. It is so hard, these traps that we can find ourselves in. Seemingly no-win situations. I have so much compassion for your longing for this person whom you can't find a way to be with in the way you want to be with her. I use a past loss of a parent to help me with this. Some relationships don't last as long as might want them to, or blossom into what we dream they could be. Oh, does that hurt! But if you can at least still feel like you would rather have had this love, despite the pain of its incompleteness, maybe you can find some peace in that.

I hope I am not off with my comments. I relate a little bit because I was in situation like this, something I never thought in a million + years I could be any part of at all. I was a non and he was a non, and things were so great, but... .Sigh. We could not be together either. It hurt like hell. I stay away because I don't want the complications or lingering feelings that come with that, but I can see how this could go on and on and not resolve. It is a magical bubble in your life because only you two are in it, but it... .is so complicated.  

Take care man! You really will find a way out of this bind someday when/if you are ready. Hope you find some peace in any case.

[RomanticFool]

Thanks Pearlsw,

In a relationship that has built in constraints, you are both with other people, and can't find a way to be together (that is very, very painful and I am so sorry for this!), you have a built in dynamic of not being able to give each other what one might hope for under the "best" of circumstances, but still... .we naturally try to "normalize" a relationship and make it work and get our needs met, but there are simply too many in the mix (4 people) for it to be what it

That is absolutely spot on. In fact there are 7 people in the mix, including her children. Then there are colleagues at the suicide prevention charity and then AA. In fact everybody in her life seems to be in the mix because they all seem important in her life. I am just A.N Other. Even if she doesn't actually feel that way, that is the harsh reality. I am beginning to see this now. I believe she is actually incapable of continuing with any kind of r/s while she feels in crisis.

It seems like you are onto an important notion, you either have to learn to "radically accept" this for what is possible in this context, or... .mentally train yourself (with lots of hard, hard work) to see her as only a friend so you can give yourself some mental relief.

This is what i am trying to do now by dialogue on here and desperately trying to let go. It is so so hard.

I relate a little bit because I was in situation like this, something I never thought in a million + years I could be any part of at all. I was a non and he was a non, and things were so great, but... .Sigh. We could not be together either. It hurt like hell.

I feel your pain!

I stay away because I don't want the complications or lingering feelings that come with that, but I can see how this could go on and on and not resolve. It is a magical bubble in your life because only you two are in it, but it... .is so complicated.   

I probably should stay away too but I am going to try and keep her in my life and see where we go.

[Sunfl0wer]

Just curious... .

How do you distinguish between
Is this a healthy pursuit for you, this relationship?
Is this pursuit a form of addiction?

People can form addictions to substances, love, sex, other people, etc.

How do you know which is which I wonder?

[RomanticFool]

I think the answer is if it feels compulsive in an unhealthy way, or if you are pursuing somebody who isn't available and able to fulfill your emotional needs, despite expecting their own to be fulfilled. In other words, exactly what I have been doing the last 14 years on and off with the ex. She replied to my last message offering her my shoulder should she be in need:

Her: That is very selfish of me when I can do nothing in return at this time.

Me: I don't need anything in return. My love is unconditional. I am here.

For some reason, this feels healthy to me in the wake of what has gone before. I don't think she will take advantage of me, I think the r/s thus far has included alot of push/pull on both sides. Perhaps leading us into calmer waters will soothe both of us.

One thing is nagging at me though. It is said that a pwBPD loses interest once they feel they have you. I am concerned that I am simply setting myself up as a lifelong fallback.

[patientandclear]

RF--hi. babyducks was so insightful as usual. About the conversation, I'll just add that I wouldn't even assume you know the why of her depression. The family stuff may be just the decorations and furniture in that emotional room, problems she has to deal with that are hard given how down she is. It may be that she is down because SHE is realizing that there will be no easy escape for her bad feelings via the shortcut of a relationship, affair, magic carpet, etc.

Now let me validate you for a minute I think you should not so quickly dismiss
your own feelings of frustration (title of your other thread) here. I accepted my ex's relationship limitations and was a true friend to him for quite a while (many posts about that period starting about five months after I joined here). I radically accepted, I did not push, I was following St Francis, I asked nothing and took what he gave.

We had an unusual but, it seemed to me, beautiful thing for a time.

However, stitched into the fabric of the arrangement was a lack of commitment on his part, and an aversion to me ever having any needs. For a long time I didn't test that and told myself I was fine with it, and to the extent it occurred to me this was unequal and maybe not so healthy, I thought maybe it would evolve when he trusted me more.

However for him, what was attractive about the relationship was that I asked nothing. Thus it did not grow into a situation where I could participate more equally, because the very thing he liked best about me is that he could do whatever felt good to him and I never resisted, complained or asked for something else.

Finally I could no longer just accept whatever he put out there, because he started acting in ways that were destructive to our relationship, and when I did make changes, the relationship couldn't survive that. The details don't matter so much. What I'm trying to point out is that, while accepting her limits and not pushing her and not making it (either her problems or the solution to them) all about you, IS likely to "work" in the sense of making her comfortable in the relationship ... .that doesn't mean it's healthy for you. In the end I found that being the amazing de facto emotional partner of someone who would not acknowledge me as such and who had no sense that he had any reciprocal obligations to me, was unhealthy and depleting (and occupied space in my life where someone who could truly love me might someday be). It worked for him (though people here pointed out that that may not have been true in a deep way as it facilitated and buffered him from the consequences of some destructive behaviors) but it didn't work for me.

I didn't know this in advance, I had to play it out and learn, and every relationship is different, and your person's behaviors are different than those of my ex. So I am not forecasting what will happen here. But just noting that your own self-protective instincts that caused you to end things five months back are probably important. Just because she wants you in her life and likes the arrangement where you are her admirer and validator doesn't mean that's a healthy role for you.

We are adult partners or former partners or potential partners, not a therapist, parent or "just a friend." When such relationships get so one-sided as this, they are hard to reconcile with the requirements of healthy adult relationships.

So long as you are engaging, I could not agree more with bd about what will or won't work. Maybe rather than talking about the relationship you can "stretch" it by talking about other stuff going on in your life, so it isn't literally all about her. But. I think it's important that you not discount your own feelings about not wanting to play this role. Selfless giving is the seed of a lot of UNHEALTHY love relationship dynamics.

That doesn't mean you can demand from her what she can't give. It may mean you accept those limits and then decide you don't want to play this role, and explain that as kindly as you can and stop rescuing her.

None of this needs to be changed, done or decided instantly or impulsively. Care and greater certainty are called for before you make further changes.

I know how hard these choices are.

[RomanticFool]

Hi Patientandclear,

Thanks for the validation. The thing is I haven't forgotten my own emotional needs at all. In all honesty what the r/s breakdown with the married lover is doing is drawing me closer to my wife. Not in a cynical way on my behalf ie using my wife as a cushion while I prepare myself for another round of jousting with the lover. More on a fundamental level where everything that is missing from my r/s with the ex is and always has been there with my wife - all except one crucial component: sexual attraction.

My wife, despite her own abandonment issues around her father, is a loving, caring and intelligent woman. Those things were all present when we got married, except the sexual attraction. That may well be an ongoing issue but I certainly have not given up on it at this juncture. I think the affair began because I haven't been addressing my own needs for intimacy and had gotten into the habit of not ensuring those needs were fulfilled. By the time I was married, it seemed a perfect solution to have an affair and maintain a loving r/s. Of course, I know how devastating a notion that turned out to be.

Therefore, the way I am behaving with my ex at the moment is also partly to give myself a chance of figuring out my feelings towards my wife without the depression of constant loss weighing me down. Keeping the r/s on an even keel with the ex is stopping me from becoming emotionally upset and therefore empathy impaired.

It is a difficult balancing act because my instincts are to tell my ex to go forth and multiply and accuse her of using, manipulating and lying to me, as I have always suspected she has done and is doing. This is perhaps also what I probably should do. Well I tried that 5 months ago and look where it got me. Therefore, this is an alternative approach. I don't know where it will lead me but I am hoping if I take the intensity out of everything, calm down the language, the love rhetoric, the sexual ideation and cease heightening my own desire for the ex, myself and the two women in my life may all reap the benefits.

So my rationale is that it isn't just me affected by my impulsive and destructive responses but my wife and my ex also. This is new ground for me. I have never really tried the keeping in contact and becoming friends with any ex gf. It may well be doomed to failure but I want to at least give it a go. I have absolutely not overlooked my own needs and desires, but let's be honest, I have been addressing those in a pretty selfish way over the past few years. I suppose what I am saying is that I am attempting to be more empathic and compassionate so that my actual r/s at home may benefit and in the hope  that my ex at least doesn't feel abandoned (though she most likely still will) when the chips are down.

I don't know where this will lead. All I know is that my previous approach was making me miserable. Keeping everything high octane and full of resentment and anger was driving the ex away and making it impossible for me to function rationally without anger and depression. I have AA meetings to go to and the support here. I also looked into getting a DBT therapist but was quoted £120 to see one psychologist, so my search goes on.

This r/s and the whole situation I find myself in has affected me profoundly but I know that I have the capacity to change. I have already changed my life by embracing sobriety nearly 15 years ago and perhaps I do have the courage to change in this sphere too.

Perhaps had my ex ever shown a desire to be with me, a very different outcome would now be playing out. However, the long term effects of that would most likely have turned out to be devastating for me since she has uBPD traits. In all likelihood, we would now be playing out a volatile and distressing r/s in closer proximity with potentially disastrous results. I am perhaps becoming grateful that that particular situation has never materialised. Who knows, I could have ended up in jail. I don't mean to be melodramatic, but who knows where my ferocious passion may have taken me had I discovered infidelity or perhaps we'd both be living in abject misery as she appears to be with her husband. Who knows what the outcome could have been, but at least this way nobody has been irreversibly damaged.

Finally, I am mindful of the fact that my ex accused me of driving her to a suicide bid. Whatever the realities of that situation were, I am never going to put myself in a situation where a person has call to lay that guilt trip at my door. It was profoundly distressing to hear that from her and if becoming her friend is what it takes to avoid that, I am prepared to give it my best shot.

[babyducks]

This has been a very good thread RF.   You’ve done some nice work hosting it.

What you seem to be saying to me is that I have to take myself out of the equation. I am an AA member and we often quote the St Francis prayer. I am in no way religious but I do find this passage of great value:

Well Yes and No.   Let’s unpack this a little more.

pwBPD experience and express life differently than those of us organized at a different level.   That’s neither right nor wrong.   All of us are somewhere on the spectrum.   Me; I am on the spectrum in the avoidant/depressive cluster.  I think labels are guide posts to put us in the general area of what we need to find.   I don't see that you need to take yourself out of the equation as much as add into the equation another variable.   The variable of mental illness.   

because  pwBPD experience and express life differently than you or I and  like pearl said upstream this can make communication difficult, since we are often having two different conversations.    It takes some time to learn the underlying meanings below some statements.

I often assumed that my partner saw things and felt the same way about them as I did.   This was not the case more often than not.   Much of what she experienced came through the filter of a fear and shame.   Learning her perspective meant trying to see things through her eyes without becoming responsible for them.  To make a connection based on a shared emotion, that she owned and I was privileged to view.   I wonder how a person with difficulty regulating emotional intensity would see sexual nirvana.   Could it be both exhilarating and engulfing?   

Over on the right hand side of the screen in step four it talks about embracing the realities of BPD .    whether your person is high functioning or low, has traits or a dual diagnosis, understanding how the umbrella descriptions fit into your relationship takes some effort.   it's usually counter intuitive.   

I see the difference between an emotional leader and a caretaker or care giver as follows:   An emotional leader drives the bus back into the middle of the road rather than over the cliff.   A caretaker, caregiver says you drive the bus so badly I will keep my hands on the wheel at all times.    In a more healthy relationship I think both partners drive the bus and both push it back into the center of the road as needed.

Maybe that isn’t the best metaphor.

Being an emotional caretaker, caregiver re-inforces the idea that the person is incompetent.    Not usually something that you want to do with a pwBPD.    That raises emotional reactivity.   

I noticed the same thing that P&C did about this snippet so I am going to ride on her coat tails a little.   I think there is more to look at here:

Her: That is very selfish of me when I can do nothing in return at this time.

Me: I don't need anything in return. My love is unconditional. I am here.

She was being honest with you.   And she was being accurate.   In your other thread you mentioned how the relationship is one sided.   She is acknowledging that and expressing remorse.   If I had to measure her emotional reactivity on the Richter scale here I would say fairly low.    That’s good.   She is at or near emotional baseline.   

Here I am wondering why you disclaimed her observation and denied your own feelings.   Yesterday you were so frustrated you wanted to blow the relationship up.   So clearly to you this is not okay.    Her feelings of being selfish are not okay for her either…...    she feels badly about this….saying ‘I don't need anything in return' when it’s not okay for either of you is puzzling to me.   I understand wanting to avoid yet another fraught conversation.   I understand wanting neither one of you to feel bad.   I wonder if there is a middle ground here.   Something that would look like an acknowledgement of her feelings, without rushing to fix it.     Something that might sound like ‘I think I understand what you mean,  RF’sLover,  yes our relationship has been under some stress and strain and feels weird to me too. I do have hope for it improving and I am willing to help us get there.’    No riding to rescue on the white horse.    Some validation of her feelings,…. Some encouragement that she can affect change.    How would you measure your emotional reactivity in this snippet?   Do you feel like you were at baseline?    What is true about conversations is that they are more productive when both parties are at the same emotional level.   

I’m no expert but isn’t there something in AA that says.   I won’t try to fix all problems all at once today, I can do something for 24 hours that would appall me if I felt I had to keep it up for a lifetime?   This is going to be a process, something you walk through one day at a time, with no tangible goal line to reach.   P&C was correct when she said that nothing needs to be decided instantly or impulsively.

'ducks

[Sunfl0wer]

Am so impressed by advice here in this thread!  Amazing to read members thoughts... .

Just thinking... .

. I am an AA member and ... .

I think the answer is if it feels compulsive in an unhealthy way, or if you are pursuing somebody who isn't available and able to fulfill your emotional needs, despite expecting their own to be fulfilled. In other words, exactly what I have been doing the last 14 years on and off with the ex.

We may all have our own definitions of addiction.  Way I see it is... .Is this adding to my life?  Is this detracting from my life, my life goals?  Where would my focus and efforts be better spent?  Am I making decisions based on urges? Or based on thoughtful/mindful reflection on how it matches my values and life I want?

This sounds a bit "urge" driven vs mindful:

This is the crux of the issue and so much of it is driven by sexual desire.

Wondering why instead of "feeding" this "addiction" ... .why not go to a codependents anonymous meeting?  I have heard good things about them from a friend of mine. 

[RomanticFool]

Hi ducks,

Wow, what a minefield I am walking in without the right equipment! Let me deal with her response first and my response to it.

She was being honest with you.   And she was being accurate.   In your other thread you mentioned how the relationship is one sided.   She is acknowledging that and expressing remorse.   If I had to measure her emotional reactivity on the Richter scale here I would say fairly low.    That’s good.   She is at or near emotional baseline.  

Here I am wondering why you disclaimed her observation and denied your own feelings.   Yesterday you were so frustrated you wanted to blow the relationship up.   So clearly to you this is not okay.    Her feelings of being selfish are not okay for her either…...   she feels badly about this….saying ‘I don't need anything in return' when it’s not okay for either of you is puzzling to me.

I am trying to be understanding to her and not make any demands on her at the moment. It feels the wrong thing to say but I didn't know how else to say it. You are correct, it actually isn't ok. What I really wanted to say was 'Why can't you give me anything when I've given you my life' but I don't think that would have gone down well.

 Something that would look like an acknowledgement of her feelings, without rushing to fix it.     Something that might sound like ‘I think I understand what you mean,  RF’sLover,  yes our relationship has been under some stress and strain and feels weird to me too. I do have hope for it improving and I am willing to help us get there.’    No riding to rescue on the white horse.    Some validation of her feelings,…. Some encouragement that she can affect change.    How would you measure your emotional reactivity in this snippet?   Do you feel like you were at baseline?    What is true about conversations is that they are more productive when both parties are at the same emotional level.  

This is very good. The truth is I don't think I know how to do empathy with her in these conversations, so I may use this! Btw, I have looked at the validation video and found it very brief. I'll tell you something funny, in some of the work I do I teach people the differences between sympathy and empathy. I just don't seem to be able to do it with a pwBPD.

I’m no expert but isn’t there something in AA that says.   I won’t try to fix all problems all at once today, I can do something for 24 hours that would appall me if I felt I had to keep it up for a lifetime?  

You are quoting the 'Just For Today" card. I have been posting on here for close to 6 months now. My progress has been slow but telling.

This is going to be a process, something you walk through one day at a time, with no tangible goal line to reach.   P&C was correct when she said that nothing needs to be decided instantly or impulsively.

I am trying to use my rational mind more. I have often been impulsive in r/s.

Now back to the beginning of your reply:

pwBPD experience and express life differently than those of us organized at a different level.   That’s neither right nor wrong.   All of us are somewhere on the spectrum.   Me; I am on the spectrum in the avoidant/depressive cluster.  I think labels are guide posts to put us in the general area of what we need to find.   I don't see that you need to take yourself out of the equation as much as add into the equation another variable.   The variable of mental illness.    

I think I am on the BPD spectrum regarding impulsiveness and empathic impairment when emotionally fraught. I am terrified of losing her and always have been. She brings out the needy/clingy/co-dependent in me. I liked it best when she was all over me and needing me. It hasn't been that way for a long time. I find her aloofness difficult and the reason I walked away before was because we were in the devaluation stage. Whether we would have been there had I been able to do this kind of empathy, I really don't know.

because  pwBPD experience and express life differently than you or I and  like pearl said upstream this can make communication difficult, since we are often having two different conversations.    It takes some time to learn the underlying meanings below some statements.

She definitely shies away from any form of 'engulfment' as I have done also in other r/s. I suspect if she suddenly became all clingy over me, in time I may shy away too. I have a feeling we are similar, though i don't have the severe depression she experiences. Having said that I was suffering from my worst depression fairly recently, which also included suicidal ideation. I hate to say this, but I have been better since the detachment and the reduction of the intensity. As much as I miss sex with her, I don't miss how I have felt in breaking off with her. It was a living hell.

I often assumed that my partner saw things and felt the same way about them as I did.   This was not the case more often than not.   Much of what she experienced came through the filter of a fear and shame.   Learning her perspective meant trying to see things through her eyes without becoming responsible for them.  To make a connection based on a shared emotion, that she owned and I was privileged to view.   I wonder how a person with difficulty regulating emotional intensity would see sexual nirvana.   Could it be both exhilarating and engulfing?  

I always think she experiences things as I do, but the silences tell me otherwise. I said last night that she doesn't feel the same way about me as I do about her. She told me not to tell her how she feels. At this juncture I have no idea what she feels about me. I am trying to see things from her point of view. I feel I know something about viewing the world when struggling to regulate emotional intensity. I usually withdraw too. Though my co-dependence and sexual ideation of her is such that I feel I can never walk away. It almost feels I am being masochistic about the things I do to try and get her onside. Sartre said that love is about control. I think he was right.

Over on the right hand side of the screen in step four it talks about embracing the realities of BPD arrow.    whether your person is high functioning or low, has traits or a dual diagnosis, understanding how the umbrella descriptions fit into your relationship takes some effort.   it's usually counter intuitive.  

The truth is that I don't know who she is. When I am with her she feels like my soulmate. When she ignores me, she feels like a femme fatale. When she does BPD things she feels like a demon. I guess she is all of those things.

I see the difference between an emotional leader and a caretaker or care giver as follows:   An emotional leader drives the bus back into the middle of the road rather than over the cliff.   A caretaker, caregiver says you drive the bus so badly I will keep my hands on the wheel at all times.    In a more healthy relationship I think both partners drive the bus and both push it back into the center of the road as needed.

Maybe that isn’t the best metaphor.

Being an emotional caretaker, caregiver re-inforces the idea that the person is incompetent.    Not usually something that you want to do with a pwBPD.  That raises emotional reactivity.

In the past I was always the emotional leader with her. Since she started the distancing and devaluation stage of this recycle I have become more of a caregiver in order for her to talk to me.

I have tried so many different strategies with her - alot of it aimed at trying to get her back onside - that her head must be spinning with my differing tactical approaches. I know mine is. I usually plump for straight talking but she basically called me aggressive if I spoke from the heart. In fact when we reconnected after her stated suicide attempt, she said I was a demon and she would have to learn to trust me again. At least we are past that now.

I don't know where we go from here, but I am going to try and use empathic statements and validation with her.

[RomanticFool]

Hi Sunfl0wer,

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change... .

Wondering why instead of "feeding" this "addiction" ... .why not go to a codependents anonymous meeting?  I have heard good things about them from a friend of mine.

I went to CODA for many years. I can't honestly say it did much for me. People would never want to sponsor me for fear of becoming co-dependent. I felt like AA was the stronger fellowship.

We may all have our own definitions of addiction.  Way I see it is... .Is this adding to my life?  Is this detracting from my life, my life goals?  Where would my focus and efforts be better spent?  Am I making decisions based on urges? Or based on thoughtful/mindful reflection on how it matches my values and life I want?

This sounds a bit "urge" driven vs mindful:

I need to do some serious work around mindfulness.

I went to Sex And Love Addicts Anonymous (SLAA) meetings for a while in order to deal with my sexual conduct. Much like CODA, I found it not as strong a fellowship as AA and also quite weird - particularly the HOW programme.

[Sunfl0wer]

Well, gotta say, I am not actually a fan of 12 step programs and the way they do things.  Yet I do believe in "whatever works" for folks... .hence why suggesting CODA.

For me, for help with drinking, I found SMART recovery to be helpful, more to my way of thinking.  They have a ton of useful CBT type worksheets for free too... .
www.smartrecovery.org/resources/toolchest.htm

... .In case your interested.

[RomanticFool]

I have been an AA member for 20 years and sober for 15. I am a happy camper regarding AA as there is a strong fellowship and in the UK we are a bunch of heathens so the whole God thing is adapted for all flavours. Ironically, a died in the wall atheist like myself has at least been opened up to the notion of a spiritual side to life. Most of my friends are AA members and so it is less a programme of recovery and more a way of life.

I am actually going to attend a SMART meeting out of curiosity. There is one literally around the corner from where I live and I am intrigued at their approach. Like you, I go with whatever works for people.

I think the 12 step programme is actually CBT. Positive reinforcement and changing unhelpful patterns of behaviour.

Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated.

[patientandclear]

Chiming in to agree about the thoughtful productive nature of the thread as you are using/leading it.

One thought: compare your comments a few posts back about trying to reduce the intensity, which makes sense -- to the content of the exchange with her you most recently posted, which is actually amping up intensity. You're pressing for more.

I think clarity about your path is essential to get the benefit of any choice you make. Oscillating back and forth means you aren't really trying any road long enough to see how it will play out. My sense is: it's always uncomfortable so you try to shift in hopes it will then be less uncomfortable/awkward, but that doesn't fix anything either, it just changes the nature of the problem. Living through the less-optimal-than-desired feelings is the assignment here.

Congratulations on opening up to the many great aspects of your relationship with your wife. That's impressive. I'm glad for you!

[babyducks]

I am trying to be understanding to her and not make any demands on her at the moment. It feels the wrong thing to say but I didn't know how else to say it.

I understand and this makes sense.   I appreciate your good intentions.    Here is my take on what it takes to be in a relationship with a pwBPD.   

For me, I have never talked so much and used so many words as when I was with my partner.  I needed extraordinary communication skills and better than average validation skills.

Validation is not sympathy and it's not empathy although it can appear to have components of both.  my definition of validation is acknowledging some one feelings and opinions in such as way as to cause a person to feel valued and having worth.

the official definition of validation is

Emotional validation is the process of learning about, understanding and expressing acceptance of another person’s emotional experience. Emotional validation is distinguished from emotional invalidation, in which another person’s emotional experiences are rejected, ignored, or judged.

Validation is hard to do with some one we have emotional tension with.   It's some times easier to practice on strangers.   

Validation means don't blow by another persons statement to get to what you want to say, take that moment to recognize what they shared.

Validation is actually #$%ing hard.  It's very hard to do naturally.   The simplest validation statement is "I am listening".   It conveys the message that what you say is important to me.   I will find a way to engage with you.    I want to hear what you have to say.   

some times you will find threads here where people practice their validation skills.    I would recommend it.

I think I am on the BPD spectrum regarding impulsiveness and empathic impairment when emotionally fraught.

but I am hoping if I take the intensity out of everything, calm down the language, the love rhetoric, the sexual ideation and cease heightening my own desire for the ex, myself and the two women in my life may all reap the benefits.

I think I have said this to you before but I am not very creative so I will repeat it.   

from what you describe there is a tremendous amount of harmfully intense emotional reactivity flying between you and her.   And I still don't think it matters who started it or why.   what does matter is that it's harmful to both of you.   you are both being hurt.   

what I've learned, great wisdom through painful experience, is something this intense is not real.   Yes I know it feels brutally real.   When things are always on the roof, hair on fire, love bombing like mad, there is so much chaff in the air, it's impossible to see who some one really is or tell what they really feel.  Which is exactly what you are describing.   Does that make sense?

If I had one suggestion it would be to continue to remove intensity, strive for emotional baseline, find ways to remove volatility.   If you continue to put the conversation on the roof, she will go one step higher into orbit.   that's the nature of these relationships.

What do you think?

'ducks

[RomanticFool]

P&C,

Thanks for your compliment about the thread.

To be honest, my way of dealing with her often depends on how I am feeling on any given day.

If we keep it in the here and now, then today I have succeeded in reducing the intensity. I offered her the hand of unconditional love and validated her feelings. Ducks pointed out to me that my comments last night we neighter validating nor empathic, so today is the first day I have tried to do it properly.

I do have more clarity about the path I am taking now and that is a very good point. I am going to keep it in the day, not try to push her to meet and validate her feelings and empathise with her. Whenever I feel like putting a bomb under the r/s or chastising her for not giving me want I want, then I shall come on here and share. Not seeing her is always uncomfortable for me. I hope in time this will continue to decrease. Of course if we ever sleep together again, all bets will be off.

I see my r/s with my wife as the thing that may well save my soul and mental health. However, the obstacle to that is getting over a woman I have adored and allowed myself to fall in love with while married. That is the mess I am trying to wade through. Thanks for your support.

[RomanticFool]

Ducks,

I think one of the things I have been addicted to is the emotional intensity. To be honest it has always been me driving it. When we meet up she always dresses to thrill. She looks like a rock chick and was a fashion model. At the age of 60 she still turns heads. The last time we met she wore some super sexy clothes and I was heady with admiration and lust/love. I told her how beautiful she was and she maintained the same blank expression that she often has and thanked me. When we returned to the hotel following our evening out, it was the most wonderful night of passion. So, how do I turn that emotional intensity off?

I have never really felt like I know her. I think I didn't care that much when we were younger because she was beautiful, interesting and rebellious - all of the things that attract me to women. She works in fashion and I have admired her over the years and always wanted to know more. We have attended galleries together and I have had little insights into her world and this has attracted me to her more and more. Perhaps if I was exposed to this all of the time, the intensity would become naturally less and less - but I see her a few times a year. We live 200 miles apart. This r/s has been conducted largely via text. So when we do meet up, my emotions get the better of me and I launch in. When we don't meet my frustration gets the better of me and we argue. We are caught in a 4 sided Venn diagram.

I am intent on practising validation with her and I find everybody on this site does it automatically. It's very soothing and when I first came on here I felt great - until I perceived some judgementalism creeping in about having an affair. I think most people on here are very aware of validation, I have never really practised it. It feels to me like something a parent does with a child, so I guess I have to be careful not to sound patronising.

I like that definition of validation: acceptance of another's emotional experience. That is what I want to get in touch with regarding my ex - her emotional experience. She never really talks to me enough to get a fully rounded picture though.

[RomanticFool]

Ducks,

Here is a conversation from this morning, with me working on my validation skills:

Me: Morning. How are you?
Her: Going through the motions as usual. Nothing planned for the week
Me: You sound fed up. How are you doing generally?
Her: How can I answer that? I'm not drinking and don't feel like drinking and I have a sense of calm but I feel sometimes like I will literally explode into a thousand pieces
Me: I hear you. Sounds like you are feeling frustrated  about your situation. It is  major progress that don't feel like drinking. I am proud of you. From where you were that is amazing. How long has it been now?
Her: 18 months
Me: That is no mean achievement. You said you've been doing the steps?
Her: I don't feel like drinking because it will do nothing to improve my mood. I am so profoundly depressed that nothing brings me joy - not even music - and I am worried that that safety net is no longer there. Only on step3
Me: I know it feels like it will never end but it will. It is scary to feel that when you are depressed this is how it is always going to be. But it will pass... and when it does you have 18 months of sobriety and a calmer emotional life to fall back on. You are doing all the right things. You have music in your heart and it will come back when you feel better. Keep doing what you are doing and things will change.  Step 3 is great because it's where the AA tools begin.

[babyducks]

Good Morning RF,

here are a couple of thoughts:

I think one of the things I have been addicted to is the emotional intensity. To be honest it has always been me driving it

my experience has been that this level of emotional intensity tends to burn people out.   very few people can maintain this level of ~up~ without also having the corresponding crash.   In other words you pay for the highs with the lows.   some of that is fine, but as with all things balance is important.   moderation in all things my wise old grandmother used to say.

So, how do I turn that emotional intensity off?

There are couple of ways.    I found ACT therapy helpful.    it stands for Acceptance and Commitment Therapy and you can find online resources.   One of the things they work for is:

teaching you psychological skills to deal with your painful thoughts and feelings effectively - in such a way that they have much less impact and influence over you (these are known as mindfulness skills).

Sunflower mentioned SMART and the CBT worksheets,  also 

There are also online sources of DBT. 

raise the topic here too... .I want to respond with mindfulness not emotion when I speak with my ex... .

Google can be your friend... .google mindfulness skills and you'll get bunches.

So,   if you put your first post about your conversation and this mornings conversation side by side, can you see the difference?    Nice job.

Her 'tone of voice' appears to me less constrained.  She is freer with her information.  She doesn't try to end the conversation.      The level of emotional intensity (both of yours)  is lower in this conversation and the flow of thoughts and ideas is freer.   

I picked up on this. 

I am so profoundly depressed that nothing brings me joy

You did a fine job validating this but I think you might want to return to this topic in a sensitive and caring way.   Just a suggestion.   Validation is a skill that develops with practice.    When lines of communication are as tangled as yours/hers are it will take many conversations to open up channels of communication again.

what she said was a pretty strong statement.  I am so profoundly depressed that nothing brings me joy.   This is a good opportunity to ask validating questions.   in a validating question you stay present,  you stay focused on her and reflect back what you’ve heard and make sure you got it right.  it's a good idea to refrain from evaluating or criticizing; debating or arguing; or advising or lecturing.

that sounds hard,   what does it feel like when you listen to music ?  is there like an absence or a numbness?   

if it was me and music didn't bring me joy I would feel XYZ, is it like that for you?

what I hear you telling me is that you have two things going on, the drinking which isn't so pressing right now and the depression which is worse, am I getting that right?

make sense?

'ducks

[RomanticFool]

Hi ducks,

Thanks for the feedback. I find the validation very difficult because my natural instinct is always to be positive and advise. I have to stop doing that with her. It actually annoys me when people do that with me, so I know it isn't always helpful. It seems to me that validation is essentially reflecting back and exploring the emotions a bit more. There is an irony here because I have always thought about the ex that she doesn't like talking about emotions. However, what I have realised is that she doesn't like talking about my emotions - especially around the r/s.

I will explore the music thing in more detail. I guess the key is to ask her rather than make suggestions myself? Women say men always try to fix things (if one can generalise about gender) and I am certainly guilty of that. I always look for the positive and the solution. It seems that what I ought to be doing is exploring the sensation/feeling with her, but let her tell me in her words. In this example:

that sounds hard,   what does it feel like when you listen to music ?  is there like an absence or a numbness?  if it was me and music didn't bring me joy I would feel XYZ, is it like that for you?

You reflected back and then explored the feeling - guiding her language. My instinct is always to go 'don't worry, you'll be fine' which isn't validating.

In this example:  

what I hear you telling me is that you have two things going on, the drinking which isn't so pressing right now and the depression which is worse, am I getting that right?

That is interesting because from my perspective, it sounds like the way we might talk to a teenager. But then I thought if somebody said that to me, I'd probably respond positively. It just feels a bit simplistic when I see it written down like that. I guess that helps make feelings clear for a person with a great deal of emotional disturbance going on. Anyway, I'll keep at it because she is definitely responding in a positive way and it's making me feel better too.

Turning off the emotional intensity does seem to be the key. For an addict like myself it is difficult. I remember an incident when we first met (I'm talking 14 years ago) and she said that she didn't have much time to meet up with me in her home town. I said it was fine as I just wanted to see her. She said that she was driving into town and literally going to and from her Range Rover to get groceries. I said I could meet her in her RR for a few minutes. She tore me off a strip and said 'Have some respect.' I was absolutely confused because we had been getting on well and saying lots of loving things to each other. For me it was just about feeling close to her. Then I realised years later that she thought I wanted sex (in the Range Rover), when what I actually wanted was just to see her. I guess if I'd understood validation skills back then I could have approached the whole thing differently and avoided misunderstandings. Something like 'I know you're busy and that's ok if you don't have time - would just be nice to have a coffee and say hi.' She must have thought I was weird. Not sure I would have been capable of keeping my own emotional life out of the equation back then - but it would have been good practise.

I do feel like I need to look into therapy, but I am not in a position financially at the moment to embark on long term work. I will definitely explore some online options of DBT. I had a bit of CBT on the NHS last year but it was very basic - though it was helpful. The guy they assigned to me was very young and inexperienced and when I started talking about BPD he just said 'you definitely don't have that.'

The SMART programme is a little bit at odds with AA. The major difference between the two groups is that AA puts reliance in the Higher Power and SMART seems to put the reliance back on oneself. It is the AA belief system that alcoholism is about 'self will run riot' and needing a power greater than ourselves to help us overcome these things. However, I have been reading alot of the material on the website and there are many similarities between the programmes.


 

[babyducks]

I find the validation very difficult because my natural instinct is always to be positive and advise... .It seems to me that validation is essentially reflecting back and exploring the emotions a bit more.

You pretty much have the crux of it RF.   

It seems that what I ought to be doing is exploring the sensation/feeling with her, but let her tell me in her words.

That's a good place to start,... .as the conversations evolves and communication lines open, then you can start to branch out into other areas.

That is interesting because from my perspective, it sounds like the way we might talk to a teenager. But then I thought if somebody said that to me, I'd probably respond positively. It just feels a bit simplistic when I see it written down like that. I guess that helps make feelings clear for a person with a great deal of emotional disturbance going on.

Yeah you are right,  I used language that would have worked for me and for my ex partner, who struggled with long periods of hypomania.   

It's important that you use language that works for you,  that you can sincerely, honestly say in a genuine way.  Experiment a bit.   Put it in your own words.    What worked for me were statements like:

I want to try and understand this better,  it's important to me that I get what you mean ,... is it X or Y?

Do you  want me to just listen now or should I try to offer suggestions?

I noticed that you said ABC before a couple of times,... .is this a brewing storm ?  or a general annoyance?

I actually talk like that in real life so it doesn't sound that odd when I do it.   

'ducks

[RomanticFool]

For all of the validation I have been doing and the improvement it has made, I told my ex I loved her yesterday and there has been no reply from her. I am at the point again where I want to stick a bomb under the r/s. Of course I won't but the perceived rejection to my affections is a real trigger to me. I daresay she will say 'hello' today but there is no hope of rekindling any kind of passion in this situation and I think she is stringing me along really. Perhaps the best thing I can do is continue distancing myself without actually cutting her off FB or stopping the communication. It is already fizzling out. Sad but at least she isn't suicidal.

[pearlsw]

Hi again RF, Sorry for your pain. I see you are doing a lot of good work here and I want to acknowledge that.

I have to admit your last message surprised me. Hope I am not out of place in asking this, but do you think that telling her that you love her was... .well, let's put it this way, if she did not reply to you with an "I love you too" is it possible that she is not feeling the same level of love at this time, and she precisely does not want to lead you on? Maybe the intensity is simply too much for her at this time in her life given her other issues? She is dealing with her sobriety, right? Love makes you feel drunken and out of control, or it can, maybe she just wants to feel in control? After all you've been through she may always love you deep down, but whether engaging on that is "good"/or what she wants for her life is something that only she gets to decide.

I must ask, were you validating in order to get her to fall in love with you? Or were you doing it to improve communication in a general sense? One of the reasons I am glad not to be in contact with the person I was in this kind of a situation with, loved him, but could not be together is that... .it just could not be a "normal/healthy" relationship. I thank my lucky stars I did not have to watch him fall out of love with me. That would have been way too painful for me. I am more in control of my emotions now, and out of the danger zone, but I know if I talked to him at any time it would take me about 5 minutes to start falling for him again. But we simply can't be together. Okay, I am like you, it is not 100% impossible, but it is highly unlikely and I can't live with that open sore bleeding all the time and live my life. That is the danger of not keeping her in the "friend zone" - you will crave and desire and be disappointed, endlessly. I know if I spoke to this guy we would flirt and be testing each other via that about each other's feelings. It would wreck me completely if he put a wall up to that. Is she putting a wall up to you? If so, why? What are her needs? Remember you have a built in bomb here. No one really has to be fully present in or accountable to the relationship when it is this complicated, and others are in the mix besides you two. If I was doing this kind of thing I know I'd have to take it with its limitations or not at all. Or work my butt off to control things and keep it in the friend zone.

The pain you are experiencing is coming from within you. So, take that knowledge/power and figure out what to do with it. This might sound strange, but after I lost a parent as a child (to a long-term illness) a part of me was so used to the pain of that suffering that I was almost afraid to give up that level of pain I had gotten used to over the years. At some point it had converted itself into an attachment, a way to hold onto my parent. It is hard to describe, but it was like if I gave up that pain then I was losing my parent... .even more. Even more than I already had. I guess I am saying, be careful, don't fall in love with your own pain, your attachment. Perhaps look at your attachment and use mindfulness skills to practice with releasing it.

Can you love her with no expectations?