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Skills we were never taught
98
A 3 Minute Lesson
on Ending Conflict
Communication Skills-
Don't Be Invalidating
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Setting Boundaries
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Author Topic: I hit my BPD waif...more than once...  (Read 2089 times)
Paul84

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« on: September 07, 2017, 11:18:31 AM »

So - unlike many I caved under the symptoms of a BPD waif. I am an extremely congenial personality, otherwise. Aggression is a very slow thing to build in me. It is not instinctive by any stretch.

Here's what happened: I was with her for 5 1/2 with all the amorous trappings of the typical BPD waif FOG; mirroring, enmeshment idolising behaviour abound. Also child-like in tone when wanting something, seductive, and a liar. Words are just words with no depth of meaning etc

Like many of you here - she attacked areas of my self-worth relating to an extremely sordid childhood full of all the prerequisites that made me ripe for the picking and lonely... .namely my father and mother who used to hit me regularly for age-appropriate misdemeanours ... .let me tell everyone here, anger is a slow thing in me and disgust is even slower, but at this point I am beginning to taste both. She provoked and provoked and provoked, coupled with a female castration complex which always placed her in some unspoken "competition" with me and I was close to the apex of tolerance... .I had outlined why it was toxic etc

I provided her with a life for 5 1/2 years, I asked her to pay no rent, no grocery bills, no bills PERIOD. She was extremely damaged from her parents (alcoholics and neglectful and they abandoned the family regularly) and we stupidly (with hindsight) agreed she would use this time to mend herself and reveal what she meant by "the blackness that bubbled beneath the surface"... .I'm a person who can think the unthinkable so I was ready to accept the challenge ... .I'm also a sufferer of what folks might call "the white knight syndrome" or a rescuer or a lonely child... .

She kept gaslighting me and she kept provoking inflammatory situations even after, and this is no word of a lie, 5 hour blocks of convo trying to redeem her to a place of equilibrium and balance - when these ended and everything was restored to normal she would bizzarely try and project shame into me by withdrawing or by becoming momentarily distant at a key point in the communication process. Or dropping a very ambiguous remark intended to subtly shock which always landed like a handgrenade on the table when I interpreted what she meant by it. Tangents to irrelevant areas of discussion (usually metaphors, she'd focus on the metaphor instead of the actual issue), and this would be after hours of restraining myself by talking using mild manners and etiquette to reason and somehow find a middle ground... .


Eventually - and this is after 2 years of it... .I lost control and began hitting her for these CLEARLY outlined transgressions ... .wrong I know

I am not proud of it so spare the scolding remarks - there's nothing I have not tortured myself with vis a vis the doemstic abuse scenario. Further - she knows I am a peaceful man and went to work on that, in years she is an adult woman of 29, however in temperament; in intention, in deliberate plan, purpose, adaptation of means to ends, she knew exactly what she wa doing and when I could prove it to demonstrable in the final days of things that's when she decided (I believe) to stage one last incident


She left 2 1/2 weeks ago... .She walked out the door and said she was going to get stuff for dinner, I said ok. She took nothing but the clothes she was standing up in, iphone 7+, iPad and beats by dre headphones and several pairs of shoes which I bought ... .said nothing... .I sent the police to her home to make sure she wasn't dead... .the family said she was there, but the police didn't see her personally ... .they're going back... .

She left everything here,... .possessions you or I would likely run back into a burning building to retrieve; items that are not duplicitous such as childhood photo albums, all manner of clothes and recreational materials, all manner of documentation including passport, credit cards, and practically everything is still here... .

Here's my question... .

She blocked me on Whatsapp, changed her SIM card, but has not blocked me on Instagram. Instagram was/is a large part of her life. In fact - her Instagram still reads in the bio "Paul ❤️" but she has ignored my emails pleading with her to see sense and to click, I have attended anger management and told her this, but each time I did I always felt like I was giving her an excuse for Her behaviour by taking The high road time and time again... .as I did as a child

What's her plan ? She won't respond to the parts of the email that highlight the above or the parts which highlight that her belongings are still here and she should come and get them, even with a police escort (if she's "scared"


I have sent her 2 private messages on Instagram, both have been "seen" but ignored, and I'm still not blocked despite highlighting how confusing that was in my email to her


Her only responses to me in two weeks are as follow:

"Paul, thank you for your concern, I am in a safe place. Please do not contact me again"

"Yes, we are over. All the best going forward. Please stop contacting me"


in light of everything... .what do you think her intentions are... .


I haven't contacted her since Saturday (4 or 5 days ago)... .I'm not taking it too badly to be fair, but I would like one more attempt at this relationship with these new controls in place... .

As a disclaimer: all physical abusers should be burned alive, I would advise my sisters and my any woman never to go back... .

But wouldn't she cut me out of the picture entirely ? What is the game-playing in aid of ?


Warm regards guys and thanks for reading...
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flourdust
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« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2017, 11:49:25 AM »

Hi, Paul. This is a good community for people who are in relationships with people with BPD, detaching from those relationships, or dealing with the fallout from detaching.

It sounds like your ex has left you, and she's been clear so far that she wants you to keep your distance. You should respect that.

You've said some strong things about people who commit physical abuse. You've identified yourself as one of them. You've somewhat acknowledged your problem (though much of your post is also deflecting responsibility) A good first step is taking anger management classes, and it's great that you've done that! Do you have a regular therapist as well? That could be very helpful.
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Paul84

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« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2017, 12:37:50 PM »

Hi, Paul. This is a good community for people who are in relationships with people with BPD, detaching from those relationships, or dealing with the fallout from detaching.

It sounds like your ex has left you, and she's been clear so far that she wants you to keep your distance. You should respect that.

You've said some strong things about people who commit physical abuse. You've identified yourself as one of them. You've somewhat acknowledged your problem (though much of your post is also deflecting responsibility) A good first step is taking anger management classes, and it's great that you've done that! Do you have a regular therapist as well? That could be very helpful.



I am respecting it. I didn't obsess to the point I was lashing out in these emails or  turning up at the door of her parents home unannounced or anything. I haven't engaged in any form of slander. And no - I am really trying to take accountability and not deflect. Yes - I'm in anger management, currently. Although, when one considers the undue enrichment, both financially and emotionally of a swindler, I feel a bit odd doing it.


When someone laughs at your pain to your face, basically daring you to react... .I reacted. Now - it's wrong. If it was random Joe 6-pack on the street, I would stand my ground. I would not yield to emotions even when they involve disappointment, loss and trauma. I simply would not react, and I never have.


The level of investment after 5 1/2 years and the slowly peeling the petals off my "delicate flower" to discover what and who she was, add in the fact she has never supported, been there or helped me one issue

Instead my problems were largely ignored and anything that resembled a personal challenge made me inadequate and what's more she knew I found it emasculating to even open up in the first place about terminally private stuff and the fact that I did here and this is how it turned out

I'd like to why she hasn't cut me out completely if anyone else can relate to this unfortunate situation
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Meili
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« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2017, 01:16:56 PM »

Welcome

That all sounds like a horrible mess (to put it lightly). I'm sorry that you find yourself in this situation. I hope that you can get as much support around here as I have and are able to sort this all out.

I truly wish that one of us could answer your questions as to why she has not completely blocked you from her life or made arrangements to retrieve her belongings. None of us can ever know what is in the mind of another. The range of possibilities is infinite. It is really best to take things at their face value in these situations.

It's good that you're reaching out for support, we all need it. How can we best support you?

Reading the posts of others can be beneficial, and posting is generally cathartic, so I encourage you to do both. Healing from these relationships is a process. I hope that we can help you through yours.

I look forward to reading more of your journey.
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Kelli Cornett
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« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2017, 01:23:23 PM »

I agree with flourdust, hitting people is not okay in any circumstance. It's a very serious crime. I would suggest therapy as well and respecting the boundaries of leaving her alone, she even said it nicely.

There have been times with my ex BPD where I felt extreme anger but I did not do such things.


This would be a good time to take a look at yourself.
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Paul84

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« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2017, 01:37:59 PM »

^ I get it. It's not ok. Maybe something more constructive than idle predilection ? Even though what you're sharing is true. It's been acknowledged. Ad naseum.


Welcome

That all sounds like a horrible mess (to put it lightly). I'm sorry that you find yourself in this situation. I hope that you can get as much support around here as I have and are able to sort this all out.

I truly wish that one of us could answer your questions as to why she has not completely blocked you from her life or made arrangements to retrieve her belongings. None of us can ever know what is in the mind of another. The range of possibilities is infinite. It is really best to take things at their face value in these situations.

It's good that you're reaching out for support, we all need it. How can we best support you?

Reading the posts of others can be beneficial, and posting is generally cathartic, so I encourage you to do both. Healing from these relationships is a process. I hope that we can help you through yours.

I look forward to reading more of your journey.


Much appreciated... .and I have read a good hundred threads looking for one which resembles mine - no luck though, because far from being a "spotlight effect" case, this is just unusual in many ways. If it was me, and this is in human terms: delete everything everywhere. No contact period.


Here it is,... .I'm hoping (not expecting) that because of how dire her situation is at home, and it is dire straights, and because I'm the only guy who's even bothered with her in 29 years of life (her words), she might paint me white again - and I'm thinking, the more space I give her the likelier that may become


But again - when I ask myself - when I say "self, what would you do?" The answer is unanimous - I'd bail... .

The blocking could also be to provoke anger in me so she can show people how bad it was for her... .

The stuff left here could mean I was too abusive to come and collect it ? This is how she can show people... .

The leaving Instagram open could be to show off her new life - I've read here that many individuals who share this disorder have this ailment ... .


All in all it's sadistic what both of us did to each other ... .

Two wrongs doesn't make it right, it makes it even ?
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« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2017, 01:44:41 PM »

What would you do if she did reach out and was mean and nasty? What if she was nice? Do you think that you have changed enough to never act the way that you did in the past?
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Paul84

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« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2017, 02:14:25 PM »

 
What would you do if she did reach out and was mean and nasty? What if she was nice? Do you think that you have changed enough to never act the way that you did in the past?


It's diffficult to explain, Meili... .because I've had a lifetime of verbal abuse I have extremely thick skin. In school when people were nasty, I have always been a quick-witted guy and can defuse those situations. In work - the same thing. Cool as air.

If she was nasty to me, I'd take it in stride and chalk it up to being a "telephone tough guy"... .ignoring emails, striking out from distance, blocking, cat and mouse games on social media ... .plus in my formative years I would have been a regular forum poster on forums where the dynamic of the forum is predicated on abusive (albeit in a playful way) themes,... .one of the guys we'll call it... .sh*ts & giggles... .none of it registers ... .but guys aren't usually passive aggressive and sneaky in those situations as it's all surface level stuff... .this is what I struggled with, with her. It was a mode of aggression I had never encountered before.


If she was nice I wouldn't reaggravate old wounds; I'd try and create a scenario where the two (physical abuse and the subsequent abandonment) cancelled each other out, and I would hit the ground running... .all laughs... .


Well - it would be insanity without delirium to say I've changed in the space of a week or three, but I've taken steps, despite feeling ridiculous


Seeing the Instagram private messages AFTER she said "please stop contacting me" and not blocking me is my only hope here outside of her leaving her bio as "paul❤️" when she is on Instagram liking posts everyday - I figure the rational thing to do there would be to say forget you, outright ... .

Also - very, very delicate belongings are left here en masse ... .and despite me asking twice for a status report on the freight, she refuses to acknowledge those parts of the emails... .another, possibly false hope ... .

Thanks for your time.
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« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2017, 02:16:13 PM »

My ex blocked me ALMOST everywhere as well. I gave him no reason to do so, so I can only conclude that it had to do with what was happening in his life, from which I was being excluded now. So I don't know what it meant for him. For me it meant that I had confront my desire to reach out through that little chink in the wall--to calculate the risks and benefits. I did once, for some relationship housekeeping matters. So far I have not done so again. 2 years and counting.

Also--I get a sense that you haven't found your situation reflected in the hundreds of posts you have read. I remember feeling that way, too. There's an article on here somewhere with a statement to the effect of "Your relationship was special, but it wasn't THAT special." Very true, I've found, in my case.

I won't state the obvious about hitting people (especially intimates). I would however point out that the violence in your past relationship with this person is a major reason not to press for unwanted contact.
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Paul84

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« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2017, 02:24:48 PM »

My ex blocked me ALMOST everywhere as well. I gave him no reason to do so, so I can only conclude that it had to do with what was happening in his life, from which I was being excluded now. So I don't know what it meant for him. For me it meant that I had confront my desire to reach out through that little chink in the wall--to calculate the risks and benefits. I did once, for some relationship housekeeping matters. So far I have not done so again. 2 years and counting.

Also--I get a sense that you haven't found your situation reflected in the hundreds of posts you have read. I remember feeling that way, too. There's an article on here somewhere with a statement to the effect of "Your relationship was special, but it wasn't THAT special." Very true, I've found, in my case.

I won't state the obvious about hitting people (especially intimates). I would however point out that the violence in your past relationship with this person is a major reason not to press for unwanted contact.

2 years wow, Jesus that's resiliency on his part with regard to silent treatment, sorry about that, cold as ice ... .

I'm going to search that post - thanks for your suggestion

I totally agree with your last point - I'm in no position to bargain, that's why essentially I'm not. I'm treading as lightly as I can, I've sent some really intimate emails spilling my guts, since reading this forum I now know this was a mistake since BPD people shun the word "love" or anything loosely connected with it during these spats. shes responded extremely curt and tough, as you can see above. Which I suppose is deserving given the context, but that said, nobody is under any illusions as far as physicality and its manifestation with intimates
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Meili
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« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2017, 02:27:19 PM »

Very little about these situations is rational. Trying to rationalize emotional situations is frustrating at worst and futile at best. I know that it's hard, but you'll serve yourself greatest if you try to stop. The axiom "It is what it is" is a great thing to remember.

It looks like you are trying to apply your logic to an illogical situation. That just won't work.

OK, you acknowledge that enough time has not passed to effectively change. That's a good realization. You have the time to focus on yourself and figure yourself out. It's a very worthwhile endeavor.

Like you, I have a long history of what I'll affectionately call "playful banter." Like you, I learned the hard way that when dealing with an extremely emotional person, that type of "fun" didn't work too well. I had to learn all sorts of new things about myself when that relationship ended.
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Paul84

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« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2017, 02:44:03 PM »

Very little about these situations is rational. Trying to rationalize emotional situations is frustrating at worst and futile at best. I know that it's hard, but you'll serve yourself greatest if you try to stop. The axiom "It is what it is" is a great thing to remember.

It looks like you are trying to apply your logic to an illogical situation. That just won't work.

OK, you acknowledge that enough time has not passed to effectively change. That's a good realization. You have the time to focus on yourself and figure yourself out. It's a very worthwhile endeavor.

Like you, I have a long history of what I'll affectionately call "playful banter." Like you, I learned the hard way that when dealing with an extremely emotional person, that type of "fun" didn't work too well. I had to learn all sorts of new things about myself when that relationship ended.


I hear you with both ears, Meili... .indeed with studied elegance... .


I don't think her decision to leave me was illogical, but this consistent childhood experience externalised into reality with the same emotional reaction of anger and jealousy was taxing, at best. Her primitive denial mechanisms when she was corrected for it became more apparent to me as I was able to use a keen sense of analysis and circumspection in an adaptive, rather than defensive fashion. Initially. The problem was when self-definition came into it she began getting more and more petulant


... .and boy howwwwwdy, do I agree with the unease they have with humour. My thinking is the shame-prone adult learns as a child that what he/she wished to display with pride and excitememt was regarded by others as laughably small, cute, or underdeveloped. She would ALWAYS take this demeanour and need to be talked out of it. I've met her father, this is who he is personified. Berates the kids, stunts them emotionally, drinks and abandons whenever it tickles him pink

She distinguishes shame and guilt by identifying shame as a failure to reach her ego ideal (a falling short) of being Americas sweetheart
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« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2017, 03:40:36 PM »

She left everything here,... .possessions you or I would likely run back into a burning building to retrieve; items that are not duplicitous such as childhood photo albums, all manner of clothes and recreational materials, all manner of documentation including passport, credit cards, and practically everything is still here... .

I would nicely pack these things, label the boxes, and put them in a storage unit near to where she lives or works and send her the combination to the lock. Pay the rent for sixty days. Send her a card that says, I know you will need these things so I put them in storage so that you can have access to them at your convenience. Please feel free to change the lock. The contract is paid though __ /__ / __

This is the high road. She will appreciate it.

But wouldn't she cut me out of the picture entirely ? What is the game-playing in aid of ?

When we are upset, we can see things in a distorted way. All of us have been there.

When people break up, its not expected that they block there partner on every line of communication. Frankly, I have never blocked an ex on anything and it didn't mean I was playing a game.

She left in a way to obviate any discussion on the matter. Her messages to you are clear. At least for now, she wants you to leave her alone for as long as she wants to be left alone, maybe forever. There is no ambiguity here. No indication of a game.

What's her plan ? She won't respond to the parts of the email that highlight the above or the parts which highlight that her belongings are still here and she should come and get them, even with a police escort (if she's "scared"

To get out, clean. There are lots of reasons she doesn't want to talk. She may be afraid she will change her mind. She may be afraid that you will be good for a while, but it will happened again? She may be resentful and want you gone forever. She may be following the directions of a DV agency that helped her out, but required certain conditions on her part (e.g., not going back). She may just want space.

My first thoughts when reading he notes she sent was that they were written by a professional.

I haven't contacted her since Saturday (4 or 5 days ago)... .I'm not taking it too badly to be fair, but I would like one more attempt at this relationship with these new controls in place... .

I hear you. Here's the deal. She likely had help in all of this, either at the time or after, so she is going to have other people watching for resolve to break and pumping her resolve back up. It's a big barrier to overcome.

If you chase after her, you will likely see an escalation from her or her support network - maybe a protective order.

Your best bet is to lay low right now.

What type of things did you tell her in the communications that you sent?
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Paul84

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« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2017, 04:12:22 PM »

I would nicely pack these things, label the boxes, and put them in a storage unit near to where she lives or works and send her the combination to the lock. Pay the rent for sixty days. Send her a card that says, I know you will need these things so I put them in storage so that you can have access to them at your convenience. Please feel free to change the lock. The contract is paid though __ /__ / __

This is the high road. She will appreciate it.

eeeeeeeeeee - I hear you, and I have seen this option exercised and suggested in numerous threads I have come across. I don't think this is the route I'd like to take. To me that's going too nuclear too soon. It's saying it's over, and thats my position.

When we are upset, we can see things in a distorted way. All of us have been there.

When people break up, its not expected that they block there partner on every line of communication. Frankly, I have never blocked an ex on anything and it didn't mean I was playing a game.

I disagree. This was not as simple as breaking up. I hit her. That's in the same league as rape, molestation of a child, dismembering a body and all other forms of miscreant behaviour. I'm coming onto the forums under the assumptions she's gone, forever. But has left ambiguous signs that it's not over on an app she uses every minute of the day. Further - she uses the app for photography accounts exclusively - it is not an account where friends and family are added, as she has lost both. So it isn't anything to do with impression management,... .making it More of a head melt as to why she can't block and delete as standard protocol would dictate in this situation

She left in a way to obviate any discussion on the matter. Her messages to you are clear. At least for now, she wants you to leave her alone for as long as she wants to be left alone, maybe forever. There is no ambiguity here. No indication of a game.

I understand what she's said. I understand the explicit nature of the content and the behaviour expected of me in light of those instructions. outside of a few surprised "what the heck?" type of moments I haven't been acting desperate or forthright or aggressive

Think of her as an individual poorly equipped for disciplined thinking, think of her resolve as being porous at best and think,of the fact that she has not resigned herself to cutting me out completely. I don't approach her or this with that type of arrogance but I have it filed away in my mind based on experiences. I don't want to sound cracked here and adopt a philosophy of "an abnormal reaction to an abnormal situation is normal behaviour" but there's nothing normal to me about how this is being handled ethically outside the distance she needs to maintain. All contact should have been cut. I hit her.

To get out, clean. There are lots of reasons she doesn't want to talk. She may be afraid she will change her mind. She may be afraid that you will be good for a while, but it will happened again? She may be resentful and want you gone forever. She may be following the directions of a DV agency that helped her out, but required certain conditions on her part (e.g., not going back). She may just want space.

All plausible... .

My first thoughts when reading he notes she sent was that they were written by a professional.

Yes -  this is the most significant part of your post - good job identifying that. I couldn't make sense of the tone, either. Since I am a professional and she has always admired my writing style maybe she wanted to mirror me. But I absolutely have never been spoken to as "short and sweet" as that before by her. I've read however that people who suffer with this disorder can turn to black ice at the drop of a hat. She has no money to afford a professional anything.

I hear you. Here's the deal. She likely had help in all of this, either at the time or after, so she is going to have other people watching for resolve to break and pumping her resolve back up. It's a big barrier to overcome.

If you chase after her, you will likely see an escalation from her or her support network - maybe a protective order.

Your best bet is to lay low right now.

The family she's with is as toxic as they come. They will not be pushing her to come back for no other reason than to sabotage the potential for her to individuate from whatever cult that father has up there, it's warped.

What type of things did you tell her in the communications that you sent?

Laid it all bare - went to great pains to take account of my actions, I had told her she scared the sh*t out of me disappearing like that and I'd informed her the police would be out just to check up. I asked her to talk and I said I'd give her all the time she needed to get to that place. I was not aggressive, even though I've really been shafted/fleeced. But I'm willing to overlook it on this occasion because It is a matter beyond reasonable complaint.

It's a gift and a curse, but I have been given an overdeveloped sense of empathy by the man upstairs so I can easily and readily put myself in her shoes, which is what I did and which is what I've been doing since we got together. I was conjuring images of how scared she must have been leaving and how I'm struggling with the current arrangement. and that maybe throwing me a bone after 2 weeks would be indicative of something positive ?

I try and get to assert herself and voice her issues with impunity (her dad and mother would never listen, instead scolded her for having needs), and I was trying to change that to no avail, apparently
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« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2017, 04:35:24 PM »

Domestic violence is about control.

eeeeeeeeeee - I hear you, and I have seen this option exercised and suggested in numerous threads I have come across. I don't think this is the route I'd like to take. To me that's going too nuclear too soon. It's saying it's over, and thats my position.

Doing this says her needs are above yours. If you don't do this, you are basically exercising control by holding her passport, etc. hostage to force contact. It's a counter intuitive move and I'm sure its frightening. Buy nice packing material - maybe even some organizers and containers. Label the boxes so she can work out of them (not have to unpack it all) and so that they can be brought back if she wants.

Man to man - keeping this stuff is false security. Its evidence of more of the same. It will work against you.

Laid it all bare - went to great pains to take account of my actions, I had told her she scared the sh*t out of me disappearing like that and I'd informed her the police would be out just to check up. I asked her to talk and I said I'd give her all the time she needed to get to that place. I was not aggressive... .

Good. Now follow it up with action - you have few ways to send a sincere message and returning her property is one of them. You could even leave a small card that says nothing more than... .I'm sorry. I was wrong. (example).

I'm encouraging you as "family member". I am not trying to sell you, though. I am not wanting to tell you what to do. This is only advice - and it only works when you embrace it in your heart.

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« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2017, 05:02:06 PM »

Domestic violence is about control.

Doing this says her needs are above yours. If you don't do this, you are basically exercising control by holding her passport, etc. hostage to force contact. It's a counter intuitive move and I'm sure its frightening. Buy nice packing material - maybe even some organizers and containers. Label the boxes so she can work out of them (not have to unpack it all) and so that they can be brought back if she wants.

Man to man - keeping this stuff is false security. Its evidence of more of the same. It will work against you.

Good. Now follow it up with action - you have few ways to send a sincere message and returning her property is one of them. You could even leave a small card that says nothing more than... .I'm sorry. I was wrong. (example).

I'm encouraging you as "family member". I am not trying to sell you, though. This only works when you embrace it in your heart.

I feel domestic violence is a result of a skewed sense of entitlement

With regard to her needs being paramount by comparison - Skip this is because her needs are* above mine, in this instance*. There is no question in my mind I'm the one who needs to humble myself. I work in mergers & aquisitions, this is a pretty aggressive field of endeavour at the best of times and not for the faint hearted - I can deal with a BPD waif standing on my head. I can put on my "big boy pants" and see it through - they do not strike any submissive bone in my body since submission is a stimulus I am not programmed not to feel based on my own upbringing

xxxxxx knows I deal with people I disdain through omnipotent devaluation and mockery and make people laugh rather than depression and submission and hiding under a bed with a crucifix in hand perspiring in fear and guilt... .and for some strange reason it's always worked

Can you theorise more with me your ideaology related to control in this matter... .I've relinquished all control, or so I thought ?  I will surrender her stuff on command... .but the way she acted was cowardly and I'm going to look like a simp if I make this as formulaic as you're suggesting ... ."here's everything gift wrapped in a nice candlelit pink bow for you, thanks for f*cking off on me"

I dunno man, I'd need more insight.
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« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2017, 05:14:22 PM »

I feel domestic violence is a result of a skewed sense of entitlement... .

It's been well studied. Look for the word coercive control in the literature (or google search) This might help: https://bpdfamily.com/discussions/search-info4.htm

To put this in M&A terns, look at my comments as expert opinion for the due diligence on one aspect of your acquisition strategy.  Being cool (click to insert in post)

This is a very tough subject. I hope you feel it is making progress. Let's get some other members involved here.

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« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2017, 05:15:18 PM »

I will surrender her stuff on command... .but the way she acted was cowardly and I'm going to look like a simp if I make this as formulaic as you're suggesting

In whose eyes?

In mine, it shows caring, respect, and kindness. All of which are admirable traits.
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« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2017, 05:17:53 PM »

It's a gift and a curse, but I have been given an overdeveloped sense of empathy by the man upstairs so I can easily and readily put myself in her shoes, which is what I did and which is what I've been doing since we got together.

i think this line of thinking is likely to trip you up - you are speculating as to why she didnt block you on instagram. this situation is not dire because either of you have been reading the other well. it got me, many of us tripped up, confused, and working against ourselves.

Excerpt
Think of her as an individual poorly equipped for disciplined thinking, think of her resolve as being porous at best and think,of the fact that she has not resigned herself to cutting me out completely.

this might also be a false sense of security. its not putting yourself in her shoes. it doesnt match up with the situation in hand (the indications she has sought outside resources).

if you want her back, you need a plan that is solutions oriented. powerful demonstrations like the suggestion to put her advice in storage, and with great care. you may be right that her resolve is not at 100%, though it is likely those around her are going to be pushing it there.

To me that's going too nuclear too soon

the best advice youre going to get is not going to be intuitive. the fact is this:

Excerpt
I had told her she scared the sh*t out of me disappearing like that and I'd informed her the police would be out just to check up.

will be seen as aggressive, and anyone around her will tell her just that. putting her stuff in storage shows respect.
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« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2017, 05:26:07 PM »

It's been well studied. Look for the word coercive control in the literature (or google search) This might help: https://bpdfamily.com/discussions/search-info4.htm

To put this is M&A terns, look at my comments as expert due diligence on on aspect of your acquisition strategy.  Being cool (click to insert in post)

This is a very tough subject. I hope you feel it is making progress. Let's get some other involve here.




Haha ironically - you know it's the literature that helped me beat my parents - my dad was frantic when he found out my iBooks were waterlogged in cluster b personality disorder related literature, but I understand you're speaking about empirical studies which obviously I'm in no position to contest. Coercive control it is. Read it and weep.

Although I am not controlling, in any way shape or form. I'm confident that way. She could go wherever she wanted, see who she wanted, wear what she wanted, speak how she wanted, I'm a firm believer in individuality because attempts were made to control me as a child in this way, my parents put clamps on exhibitionism and as I advanced from a child to young adult; it's one of those key ingredients that make a realtionship successful so I never splashed around in the "control" pool, at least to the best of my knowledge. Absent-mindedly I have it seems.
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« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2017, 05:31:18 PM »

In whose eyes?

In mine, it shows caring, respect, and kindness. All of which are admirable traits.


In my partner's eyes,... .she comes from a long ancestral lineage of pseudo con men, failed sociopaths and other unsuccessful, uneducated deviants. Actually most of them should be put away in the interest of public hygiene given what I know. This is each male in her family tree, excluding none. Their collective response to my "romantic overture" would be a chorus of laughter at my expense,... .I know, who cares right ? These people are recidivists and socially disinherited - so who gives a sh*t what they think ... .I hear you... .

Loving them to death won't do it - facing the music eventually will

Or nothing
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« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2017, 05:35:51 PM »

Hi Paul84,

Forgive me, but I feel a little confused by your thread.

Excerpt
This was not as simple as breaking up. I hit her. That's in the same league as rape, molestation of a child, dismembering a body and all other forms of miscreant behaviour.

You want her to come back to you, risking more of the same for herself?  If you were looking in from the outside and it was a friend or loved one who was being abused, what would you tell them to do?  I'm imagining that you would hope that they left that situation and would encourage them to stay that way when they decided upon it.  You've mentioned yourself that she should run.  At the same time you are stating that what she did in leaving was cowardly.  I'm not sure I'd agree and if she wants no contact from you, is willing to effectively lose some very important possessions to get away from you, then I'd say that it pretty much points to the fact that this woman fears you.  That is normal following domestic violence and a direct indication of the control exerted by creating that fear response.  So leaving that situation takes bravery and is a healthy decision on her part.  Not in any way abnormal.  

She is safeguarding herself and holding her belongings only gives the impression that you are exerting further control over her.  :)oing as Skip suggests is a wise move if you truly hope to ever regain her trust enough to have a healthy non violent relationship in the future.  In whatever capacity she chooses.  She has a right to decide without your influence what she does from this point, so this may be your ONLY opportunity to do the right thing by her and show her that you are capable of that.  I don't see it as a romantic overture at all.  I see it as showing that you can be better than the man she is seeing you as presently.

Regards getting support for domestic abuse, I'd be surprised to hear that there would be a charge for this anywhere.  I am not in the USA, so hold my hands up if I'm incorrect on this.

Consider what Skip and Meili are saying to you.  They are giving you good advice here.
  
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« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2017, 05:36:08 PM »

i think this line of thinking is likely to trip you up - you are speculating as to why she didnt block you on instagram. this situation is not dire because either of you have been reading the other well. it got me, many of us tripped up, confused, and working against ourselves.

this might also be a false sense of security. its not putting yourself in her shoes. it doesnt match up with the situation in hand (the indications she has sought outside resources).

if you want her back, you need a plan that is solutions oriented. powerful demonstrations like the suggestion to put her advice in storage, and with great care. you may be right that her resolve is not at 100%, though it is likely those around her are going to be pushing it there.

the best advice youre going to get is not going to be intuitive. the fact is this:

will be seen as aggressive, and anyone around her will tell her just that. putting her stuff in storage shows respect.


How can that be seen as aggressive ? Come off it... .she disappeared! I didn't know where she went, she had no money, nothing... .you know who'd be the first rattling my cage if something did happen and I DIDNT call the police ?

Both the cops and the family would be knocking on the door wanting answers and asking why I didn't follow up on it with a police visit ... .I called the police (missing persons) and they told me matter-of-factory I had to report her as missing... .

Their inquiries demanded I give a home address, so I obliged

This is not aggression, this is a caring act
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« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2017, 05:39:26 PM »

Hi Paul84,

Forgive me, but I feel a little confused by your thread.

You want her to come back to you, risking more of the same for herself?  If you were looking in from the outside and it was a friend or loved one who was being abused, what would you tell them to do?  I'm imagining that you would hope that they left that situation and would encourage them to stay that way when they decided upon it.  You've mentioned yourself that she should run.  At the same time you are stating that what she did in leaving was cowardly.  I'm not sure I'd agree and if she wants no contact from you, is willing to effectively lose some very important possessions to get away from you, then I'd say that it pretty much points to the fact that this woman fears you.  That is normal following domestic violence and a direct indication of the control exerted by creating that fear response.  So leaving that situation takes bravery and is a healthy decision on her part.  Not in any way abnormal.  

She is safeguarding herself and holding her belongings only gives the impression that you are exerting further control over her.  :)oing as Skip suggests is a wise move if you truly hope to ever regain her trust enough to have a healthy non violent relationship in the future.  In whatever capacity she chooses.  She has a right to decide without your influence what she does from this point, so this may be your ONLY opportunity to do the right thing by her and show her that you are capable of that.  I don't see it as a romantic overture at all.  I see it as showing that you can be better than the man she is seeing you as presently.

Regards getting support for domestic abuse, I'd be surprised to hear that there would be a charge for this anywhere.  I am not in the USA, so hold my hands up if I'm incorrect on this.

Consider what Skip and Meili are saying to you.  They are giving you good advice here.
  


I've conceded to all of this already... .

I'm bouncing ideas around off people and considering their input.

The manner in which she left was cowardly, in my opinion. Not the reason.


Returning the stuff is a very valid point - maybe I haven't explored the idea of "being the bigger man"... .since I felt being the bigger man was saying come and get it if you want it, bring whoever with you. Police, whoever.

I just know the act won't be interpreted how everyone here's is saying - you merely have to spend 10 seconds in that world to figure this out

But it raises interesting questions in my head, I've set a date for October 1st for her to get it, otherwise it's clearly off and I'll do the right thing by sending it back. Even though my motivation isn't to do he right thing... .it's to ensure she's not using this stuff to mark her territory so the next girl has problems; to ensure she is not using me like she did throughout the relationship as a storage unit; to ensure she isn't just lazy and procrastinating, which is also a trait of hers
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« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2017, 05:47:15 PM »

Apologies - too quick off the mark  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I know you seem to be accepting of the situation from your perspective.  What I am trying to do is paint a picture from her perspective and from that of the people who are no doubt supporting her.  If that be a DV agency, then leaving as she has would probably seem to be the safest way and least likely to result in any further abuse.  High conflict situations are not recommended and nothing stirs up emotion like a partner announcing they are leaving.
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« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2017, 05:47:23 PM »

You have received some really excellent advice from every poster on your thread. Advice that is wise to heed.

I can see you're upset by what has happened and from reading what you've posted, it's been a slow pressure cooker that eventually exploded. The big concern here, and I think the one most are addressing (as they should), is the fact that the "explosion" was domestic violence.

You have given us all a bit of background on yourself. Your childhood. You seem to have a grasp on all you went through. You understand there were experiences that shouldn't have happened and you seem to resent them. You've even made multiple mentions of how those experiences have shaped who you are. Now, let's break this down for a second:

You experienced levels of abuse as a child. Verbal, emotional, so on so forth. You did not like that. Of course not, no one would. As a child those abuses were methods of controlling you. They were painful experiences. With all that being said... .Domestic violence/abuse as Skip said is control. It's a different form of control than emotional and verbal. But one type of abuse is no better or worse than another. Here is my concern: there seems to be a great sense of ease within how you explain and then defend your reasoning for turning to domestic violence as a "release" - Yes, you do acknowledge how wrong and deplorable it is however youve followed it up with a "but" each time unburdening yourself of any responsibility for taking that path.

Again, as Skip stated, not wanting to take the high road and give her the opportunity to get her things without seeing you and/or a potential confrontation (negative or not) is an attempt at controlling how and when she can have her things. The second half of your final paragraph is a shining example of how, whether or not you can fully see Skips point, it is in fact something you are doing in order to control the situation... .

"I will surrender her stuff on command... .but the way she acted was cowardly and I'm going to look like a simp if I make this as formulaic as you're suggesting"

Trying to force her into a situation where she has to see you in order to get her things is holding control of the situation. An attempt at forcing an interaction. Possibly to get the answers you seek. Possibly to get your own closure. Only you know the answer to that.

Just to touch on some overall things from each post... .

Here's what SHE can control:
- choosing to not have any further contact with you. And politely requesting you do not contact her
- choosing to delete you off instagram... .or not
- choosing to leave... .with or without her things
- in keeping with the above: choosing when and how she retrieves her things
- choosing to not explain herself for leaving how she did
- choosing to place herself into whatever environment she feels is best for her currently

Here's what YOU can control:
- choosing to respect her clear request to not be contacted any further
- choosing to give her an option of retrieving her things on her terms
- choosing to allow her to feel how she is feeling... .maintain your focus on your feelings as they are the only ones you can control
- choosing to explore yourself and why the "pressure cooker" evolved into what it did
- choosing to work on yourself while allowing her the freedom to do the same for her


Again, not to harp on the domestic violence, however right now there really is no leg to stand on. She has made her decision very clear to you. Very formal. Very cut and dry. We have all made mistakes, some to a higher degree than others. At some point or another we each have to do work on ourselves to learn why we did what we did and grow from them. Channeling your energy and focus on your own self awareness may be better spent
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« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2017, 05:55:06 PM »

How can that be seen as aggressive ? Come off it... .she disappeared! I didn't know where she went, she had no money, nothing... .you know who'd be the first rattling my cage if something did happen and I DIDNT call the police ?

this is your perspective and it makes perfect sense to me. it isnt necessarily her perspective, or that of those around her. when we offer advice, that is what we are taking into account. your intentions vs how they may be perceived.

Returning the stuff is a very valid point - maybe I haven't explored the idea of "being the bigger man"... .since I felt being the bigger man was saying come and get it if you want it, bring whoever with you. Police, whoever.

I just know the act won't be interpreted how everyone here's is saying - you merely have to spend 10 seconds in that world to figure this out

But it raises interesting questions in my head, I've set a date for October 1st for her to get it, otherwise it's clearly off and I'll do the right hug by sending it back

paul, october first is a significant amount of time to wait on this, and yes, by that point, its just cementing a broken relationship, and will be perceived that way. or she will make arrangements to get it. dont construe the fact that she hasnt claimed her belongings as "leaving a door open" - do have an approach that she hasnt claimed her belongings, and that gives you an opportunity to make a powerful demonstration of amends.
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« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2017, 06:00:07 PM »

You have received some really excellent advice from every poster on your thread. Advice that is wise to heed.

I can see you're upset by what has happened and from reading what you've posted, it's been a slow pressure cooker that eventually exploded. The big concern here, and I think the one most are addressing (as they should), is the fact that the "explosion" was domestic violence.

You have given us all a bit of background on yourself. Your childhood. You seem to have a grasp on all you went through. You understand there were experiences that shouldn't have happened and you seem to resent them. You've even made multiple mentions of how those experiences have shaped who you are. Now, let's break this down for a second:

You experienced levels of abuse as a child. Verbal, emotional, so on so forth. You did not like that. Of course not, no one would. As a child those abuses were methods of controlling you. They were painful experiences. With all that being said... .Domestic violence/abuse as Skip said is control. It's a different form of control than emotional and verbal. But one type of abuse is no better or worse than another. Here is my concern: there seems to be a great sense of ease within how you explain and then defend your reasoning for turning to domestic violence as a "release" - Yes, you do acknowledge how wrong and deplorable it is however youve followed it up with a "but" each time unburdening yourself of any responsibility for taking that path.

Again, as Skip stated, not wanting to take the high road and give her the opportunity to get her things without seeing you and/or a potential confrontation (negative or not) is an attempt at controlling how and when she can have her things. The second half of your final paragraph is a shining example of how, whether or not you can fully see Skips point, it is in fact something you are doing in order to control the situation... .

"I will surrender her stuff on command... .but the way she acted was cowardly and I'm going to look like a simp if I make this as formulaic as you're suggesting"

Trying to force her into a situation where she has to see you in order to get her things is holding control of the situation. An attempt at forcing an interaction. Possibly to get the answers you seek. Possibly to get your own closure. Only you know the answer to that.

Just to touch on some overall things from each post... .

Here's what SHE can control:
- choosing to not have any further contact with you. And politely requesting you do not contact her
- choosing to delete you off instagram... .or not
- choosing to leave... .with or without her things
- in keeping with the above: choosing when and how she retrieves her things
- choosing to not explain herself for leaving how she did
- choosing to place herself into whatever environment she feels is best for her currently

Here's what YOU can control:
- choosing to respect her clear request to not be contacted any further
- choosing to give her an option of retrieving her things on her terms
- choosing to allow her to feel how she is feeling... .maintain your focus on your feelings as they are the only ones you can control
- choosing to explore yourself and why the "pressure cooker" evolved into what it did
- choosing to work on yourself while allowing her the freedom to do the same for her


Again, not to harp on the domestic violence, however right now there really is no leg to stand on. She has made her decision very clear to you. Very formal. Very cut and dry. We have all made mistakes, some to a higher degree than others. At some point or another we each have to do work on ourselves to learn why we did what we did and grow from them. Channeling your energy and focus on your own self awareness may be better spent


I hear you, coupla three things, though

1. Storage is aggressive. Here's the key, pick up your sh*t or they charge you.
2. Opting to give her the choice on how she retrieves her things is what I have suggested
3. I understand each man is responsible for his actions and that pinning it on childhood is pathetic

The reason I always have to use a "but" is the same reason the relationship was so fraught with dysfunction. It wasn't just me waking up one morning and throwing caution to the wind and hitting her reflexively, she's a textbook masochist and provokes the hostility as a means to a sexual end. I became convinced. I had told her to stop and to confine this stuff to the bedroom and to explore further her psychosexual development and identity, and we could wield that stuff into something more favourable for both of us, she just wouldn't conform, because yeah, way too controlling right ? Ehh


The mother was the same, the grandmother and the sisters - all of them
They wore men down to little nubs, and the men stayed angry and helpless

Think of what the kardashians do to athletes - not to get mixed up in magical thinking here or anything - but a similar dynamic
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« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2017, 06:03:17 PM »

this is your perspective and it makes perfect sense to me. it isnt necessarily her perspective, or that of those around her. when we offer advice, that is what we are taking into account. your intentions vs how they may be perceived.

paul, october first is a significant amount of time to wait on this, and yes, by that point, its just cementing a broken relationship, and will be perceived that way. or she will make arrangements to get it. dont construe the fact that she hasnt claimed her belongings as "leaving a door open" - do have an approach that she hasnt claimed her belongings, and that gives you an opportunity to make a powerful demonstration of amends.


Got'cha
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« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2017, 06:12:28 PM »

Storage is aggressive. Here's the key, pick up your sh*t or they charge you.

You could present it that way.

Alternatively, you could pack it up in really nice containers that she will like and keep... .

What are your alternatives? Sit and wait while she will gets another passport. This only works in your favor if your move quickly and before you get a demand letter, a police visit, or a lawsuit served.

What are your alternative positive actions?
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« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2017, 06:18:39 PM »

Skips recommendation included paying in advance for her to find an appropriate time to gather her belongings. I can see how paying for X amount of storage time can reinforce feelings of "I've already done so much. Why should I do more" -- I think it's important to try and refocus that. You care about her and seem to want the relationship to continue. With that being said, paying for X amount of time falls in line with that.

The choice to help her financially and otherwise was your own. No one can force those decisions on you. Her past, from what you've shared, is also littered with trauma and abuse. It may be safe to say that has taken its toll on her.

You chose to support her and help get her away from a negative environment/circumstances. She accepted your help and support. In a sense, that is relinquishing control to you. I feel you're aware of how without you her financial stability is, well... unstable. Aware of how she did need the home you provided. So on so forth. I say this strictly based on the multiple mentions of how she has no money and no stability elsewhere.

What's been made clear is: whether that is true or not she made the choice to leave and deal with whatever that came with. Money or no money. Intense family dynamic or not. Etc.

Here's a potential choice you can make: let her and give her her control of how or when things happen from here on out.
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« Reply #31 on: September 07, 2017, 07:01:47 PM »

Staff only

FYI, you've posted your ex's real name several times, and the board moderators have edited it out. We ask that you not use any real names or identifying info. Here's the relevant section of the guidelines. Thanks!

Excerpt
1.15 Confidentiality: Members shall not post information that directly or indirectly discloses the identify ofthemselves, their family members, friends or relationship partners with BPD. This includes (but is not limited to) direct information such as real names, addresses, business/home/cell phone numbers, e-mail addresses, etc., as well as, indirect information such as pet names, churches, etc.

Members having off-board information about another member shall not disclose it. Off-board is defined as anything not posted by the member, themselves, publicly, on the bpdfamily.com registering user names or avatars that they use elsewhere.

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« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2017, 08:34:35 PM »

she comes from a long ancestral lineage of pseudo con men, failed sociopaths and other unsuccessful, uneducated deviants. Actually most of them should be put away in the interest of public hygiene given what I know. This is each male in her family tree, excluding none

With all due respect, and I mean this not as an insult; but, rather as food for thought: Why be another one of those men?

Returning the stuff is a very valid point - maybe I haven't explored the idea of "being the bigger man"... .since I felt being the bigger man was saying come and get it if you want it, bring whoever with you. Police, whoever.

How is this being the bigger man? I am not seeing that. Can you please explain it?

I just know the act won't be interpreted how everyone here's is saying - you merely have to spend 10 seconds in that world to figure this out

And, again, with all due respect, you cannot be certain that we have not "been in that world." I'm willing to bet that some of our stories would shock you if you knew more about where we have come from and what we have experienced. To be sure, we come from a wide variety of backgrounds with completely different histories. We all share a common bond though; we've all been through some horrific experiences. Sure they are to varying degrees, but to each of us, we've either been or had someone in our respective lives who have "been in that world."

Storage is aggressive. Here's the key, pick up your sh*t or they charge you.

I can spin this a different way that conflicts with what you want... .

Keeping her stuff and not putting it in storage for her to retrieve is showing her that she can continue to use you. She could be laughing with those that you mentioned in the quote above because she has you storing her things free of charge. Just some food for thought.

2. Opting to give her the choice on how she retrieves her things is what I have suggested

What choice is she being given? No matter what you decide to do, her only choice is the one that you force onto her or replace what she can of what she left. That isn't much of a choice is it? Sorry, that spin just doesn't work from a rational perspective. Isn't something rational what you wanted?

3. I understand each man is responsible for his actions and that pinning it on childhood is pathetic

Acknowledging that our past and history teaches us is not pinning anything anywhere. It's a mature, rational, and intelligent understanding of who and what we are. I will also say that it is just the opposite of pathetic. When I was homeless, not caring whether I lived or died, and would rather stab someone as to talk to them, ignoring my history and teachings... .that's when I was pathetic. Facing what I have experienced is and choosing to grow beyond that... .that's what took strength, courage, and conviction.

Anyway, it's clear that you've made your decision about her things... .you are going to teach her a lesson. Got it. So, back to what I asked you in my original post here: How can we best support you?
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« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2017, 11:36:16 PM »

This is what I said in my last email about the stuff - and this is how I'm playing it

"I'm unsure how to take some of the recent gestures you've made ... .but I'm keeping hope in my head that things could still work out because of them... .

You blocked me on Whatsapp, I don't understand why you blocked me on Whatsapp but not on Instagram or blocked my phone number ? Would you block me everywhere if you wanted to cut me completely out ? I'm unsure what to do, if anything, about your belongings or if you would like them back; I know not everything is vital to you, but your passport and many pictures of you as a child which have to mean something to you, your cards, and then there's all of our stuff that we shared as a couple, it has not been easy going through that stuff. That's not considering all of your toiletries, shoes and other gadgets. "


She can answer that - before October 1st,... .then I'll reconsider sending it myself without prompt
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« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2017, 02:23:47 AM »

paul84,

that letter reads like a grievance list. "your stuff is kind of in the way (it hasnt been easy going through it) what do you want me to do with it, and by the way, whats up with your social media".

this is a bigger situation than the fact that she hasnt blocked you on one social media site, whereas twice she has told you not to contact her and told you shes in a "safe place". she is afraid. she is on the run. your communications to her basically tell her that this is all an inconvenience to you and that expectations are on her to clear the air. its the gist of your responses to advice given here. your focus is on tangential stuff.

if you want to save this, its going to require a radical perspective and approach change, but in the mean time, when every move counts double, you are shooting yourself in the foot.

are you ready to make this kind of change?
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« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2017, 02:58:50 AM »

paul84,

that letter reads like a grievance list. "your stuff is kind of in the way (it hasnt been easy going through it) what do you want me to do with it, and by the way, whats up with your social media".

this is a bigger situation than the fact that she hasnt blocked you on one social media site, whereas twice she has told you not to contact her and told you shes in a "safe place". she is afraid. she is on the run. your communications to her basically tell her that this is all an inconvenience to you and that expectations are on her to clear the air. its the gist of your responses to advice given here. your focus is on tangential stuff.

if you want to save this, its going to require a radical perspective and approach change, but in the mean time, when every move counts double, you are shooting yourself in the foot.

are you ready to make this kind of change?


WHAT AM I ATTEMPTING TO DO HERE BESIDES CLEAR THE AIR ?

Her stuff is in the way, she has blocked me places and not others, what's the matter with deleting me altogether except for the fact she knows I'll cling to hope, and I will, until October 1st when I'll play the field again... .to be sure... .she left me feeling humiliated and Ina state of nonexistence ... .I'm a good man, I'm not a nice guy or a pushover... .big difference ... .I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the mirror after how IVE been treated by her and succumbing to some of the suggestions

she will explain herself to me as an adult before ever she'll bat an eyelid in this apartment again, that is a fact, F... A.C.T., fact. Like I will do with her if she ever gives me the oppportunity

I feel I'm being vilified here

Explain to me the ideal way of handling it and I'll review the option - because I am lost at sea... .

To me - this is THE way to handle it given how I've been treated in all this ... .

I'm not losing sight of my feelings altogether - even if hers are my priority

To me what I've written to her confirms my stance we are both to blame but let's make amends at fifty fifty

I will walk away from the negotiation table INDEFINITELY if those needs are not met
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« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2017, 03:36:37 AM »


WHAT AM I ATTEMPTING TO DO HERE BESIDES CLEAR THE AIR ?

the air is sufficiently clear. she left in emergency fashion and she said, twice, please dont contact me again.

paul84, reread your post and ask yourself what any of it has to do with why she left. ask yourself what any of it has to do with a proactive plan to revive the relationship. your plan so far and in the future is to air your grievances. if your priority is saving the relationship, your actions should show it, and this strategy has a seriously low success rate.

i read some good advice here once. a member asked another "do you want to be right, or do you want to save your relationship?". it changed that members life, not to mention their approach, and most of all, their relationship. what do you think?
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« Reply #37 on: September 08, 2017, 03:48:37 AM »

the air is sufficiently clear. she left in emergency fashion and she said, twice, please dont contact me again.

paul84, reread your post and ask yourself what any of it has to do with why she left. ask yourself what any of it has to do with a proactive plan to revive the relationship. your plan so far and in the future is to air your grievances. if your priority is saving the relationship, your actions should show it, and this strategy has a seriously low success rate.

i read some good advice here once. a member asked another "do you want to be right, or do you want to save your relationship?". it changed that members life, not to mention their approach, and most of all, their relationship. what do you think?


No directions - just vague add water and stir advice... .

I'm in meetings all day - I'll address this later... .


Also - she left with a sadistic grin on her face that day, she was not terrified, she was not in the middle of world war 3, just simply downed tools, looked me in the eye, smiled and left, which is hand and glove how she was abandoned by her own parents, in a feeble minded attempt at recreating some lame "abandonment trauma" which I'm already bored to tears of... .it's not sadness, it's can this sh*t get any weirder


She'll own her mistakes - or she will and die in that tomb
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« Reply #38 on: September 08, 2017, 05:28:24 AM »

Excerpt
Explain to me the ideal way of handling it and I'll review the option - because I am lost at sea... .

Hi Paul84,

This may help you somewhat to spot the shore I hope.

I hear a lot of anger in your posts towards your ex and I think it's fair to say that your anger has got you into a fine mess in the relationship.  Would you agree?

If you're attending anger management, what kind of feedback have you received and how long is it anticipated that you'll attend for?  I would strongly suggest that you stay the distance with this and take on board what is being delivered as it applies to you.  

As someone who has been on the receiving end of domestic abuse, I can tell you that whatever words you use right now to attempt to make amends and clear the air, they will not be well received.  Why you ask?  

When you hit her for the very first time, I assume you felt deep regret and apologised.  Right?  Presumably promised that it will never happen again?  Told her that you loved her and made excuses for your behaviour no doubt.  What happened after that?  You hit her again.  Then apologised?  And so on.  There comes a point that any woman will reach where the realisation dawns that words like these cannot be relied upon.

My message here (or direction as you interestingly choose to call it) is to quit contacting her.  She has asked that you don't and it would be a good idea to respect that.  If what she needs is space and time away from you to get her head together and work on herself I'd advise you to use the time (as has already been suggested here by IsThisThingOn) to do the same thing yourself.  Because Paul84, actions speak louder than words.  

If you really wish to save the relationship OR get involved in another woman's life (you also mention playing the field after October 1st) I think it's important you recognise in fairness to these women that a significant change is required on your part.  The violence is a maladaptive coping mechanism and one that needs attention.

Where I am in the world there are perpetrator programmes for domestic abusers, which can be voluntarily entered for men who are ready and willing to make the changes that are necessary in their mindset to stop being violent towards people close to them.  Take a look online and see what you can find in your area.  Something like this, with your actual commitment, speaks volumes.  With the right help, you can potentially tackle some of the childhood issues that you speak of head on and choose to no longer allow these to control the direction your life goes in.  If you wish to win her back, I can think of no better way than taking a long hard look at yourself and putting the work in.  

Posting here and admitting what you have done has taken courage.  I respect that.  However, words are easy.  Feigning remorse is very simple to an abuser.  The difference between a man who is going to re offend and one who isn't is the level of truth he's willing to tell himself in private and the effort he is prepared to put into changing.  

Direction:  Stop placing blame.  (Whatever wrongs she may have done in the r/s, nobody is responsible for your actions but yourself and it is those actions that are the issue here which have caused her to leave)
Direction:  Rise above your anger and do the right thing about her belongings.  

Finally, here's an article about what it takes to be in a BPD relationship.  Ask yourself if you can see yourself committing to this for your ex.  What work would you need to put in to be in a position to really offer her what she needs?  This is something else you could be looking at if you're really serious about wanting to save the relationship.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/what-does-it-take-be-relationship  
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« Reply #39 on: September 08, 2017, 06:02:03 AM »

Just to shift gears for a moment... .

There are many members here that have been ghosted. It "messes with your head". I can think of a few who have struggled for years to absorb the blow. They can't see past it. Its hard. It blows a hole in your psyche the size of a football. You are flooded with rejection/abandonment trauma. You might flip between anger and deep hurt and self-doubt and outrage and indignation and then back again. One of the worst things about ghosting is that you can't process it early one. It can take months. You try but you mind runs wild because it i so sudden and so empty and there are so things you weren't told, pieces that don't fit together.

Our "Saving Board" is a bit of an intervention board. One of the first things we often have to do is to tell members to stop doing what they are doing. Why? Because often they are doing things o make matter worse. A common statement is "you can't make things better until you stop making them worse". This is hard advice for anyone to take - especially when they are in a state of anxiety. It takes a leap of faith that the people who are advising you have no agenda other that to help. Most see that. When its pointed out that what they are doing isn't working, they take pause. They see that it is true.

Part of that helping is often to shout "stop" a lot louder than we say "we're sorry you've been wounded". That part usually comes after we get past "stop".

So, I do want to say that we all know you are hurting. Some of us know it from first hand experience. Some of us know it from watching others go through the gut wrenching experience of someone ghosting. Ghosting is an awful thing to do to someone. Studies show that it is happening in society in increasing numbers. It's a clearly a negative social trend and one that leaves behind a lot of collateral damage - bitterness.

I'm sorry you are going through this. I want you to know that a lot of people have come together to donate time and pay the bills for this place to be here to help you get through what you are going through.

We're here for you.  Hopefully, some day, you will be here for someone else.  Hense, the name bpdfamily.
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« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2017, 11:51:51 AM »

Hi Paul,

It’s a new day here with the bpdfamily and I’d like to second what Skip said in saying I’m sorry you’re going through this situation. When we’re hurting it is sometimes hard to pause long enough to find the clear direction or truly hear the advice we so desperately seek. Again, as Skip mentioned, sometimes (often times in my own personal experience) it is helpful to have someone remind you to “Stop. Pause. Review. Refocus”

It is my hope that you can look at this brand new day as a brand new 24 hours worth of opportunities to do just that: Stop. Pause. Review. Refocus.

I see that you are seeking advice you feel you have yet to receive. Your thread has received a great deal of attention from many seeking to offer their advice based on their own experiences as well as what they’ve learned through their journey. I thought maybe putting it all into one place would help you to revisit and grant you the opportunity to decide how you’d like to embrace it:

Flourdust
Excerpt
It sounds like your ex has left you, and she's been clear so far that she wants you to keep your distance. You should respect that.

Steelwork
Excerpt
I get a sense that you haven't found your situation reflected in the hundreds of posts you have read. I remember feeling that way, too. There's an article on here somewhere with a statement to the effect of "Your relationship was special, but it wasn't THAT special." Very true, I've found, in my case.
I won't state the obvious about hitting people (especially intimates). I would however point out that the violence in your past relationship with this person is a major reason not to press for unwanted contact.

Meili
Excerpt
Trying to rationalize emotional situations is frustrating at worst and futile at best. I know that it's hard, but you'll serve yourself greatest if you try to stop. The axiom "It is what it is" is a great thing to remember.

It looks like you are trying to apply your logic to an illogical situation. That just won't work.

OK, you acknowledge that enough time has not passed to effectively change. That's a good realization. You have the time to focus on yourself and figure yourself out. It's a very worthwhile endeavor.

SIDE NOTE: Meili makes a great point here that many others have made as well and will continue to make, I assure you. Self care, self love, self awareness. Being able to figure yourself out first and foremost gives you clarity and insight you may not have previously possessed. Furthermore, it allows you to grow as a person… which could never be a bad thing.

Excerpt
I'm willing to bet that some of our stories would shock you if you knew more about where we have come from and what we have experienced. To be sure, we come from a wide variety of backgrounds with completely different histories. We all share a common bond though; we've all been through some horrific experiences. Sure they are to varying degrees, but to each of us, we've either been or had someone in our respective lives who have "been in that world."

SIDE NOTE: I see the message here as “We all suffer similar wounds. Our experiences vary but the core is the same” – This truly is a wonderful community full of supportive individuals all willing to lend a hand. Sometimes tender sometimes more ‘Firm but Fair’

Skip
Excerpt
I would nicely pack these things, label the boxes, and put them in a storage unit near to where she lives or works and send her the combination to the lock. Pay the rent for sixty days. Send her a card that says, I know you will need these things so I put them in storage so that you can have access to them at your convenience. Please feel free to change the lock. The contract is paid though __ /__ / __

This is the high road. She will appreciate it.

Excerpt
She left in a way to obviate any discussion on the matter. Her messages to you are clear. At least for now, she wants you to leave her alone for as long as she wants to be left alone, maybe forever. There is no ambiguity here. No indication of a game.

Excerpt
Alternatively, you could pack it up in really nice containers that she will like and keep... .

What are your alternatives? Sit and wait while she will gets another passport. This only works in your favor if your move quickly and before you get a demand letter, a police visit, or a lawsuit served.

What are your alternative positive actions?

SIDE NOTE: Have you taken the time for yourself to ponder this question? Have you come up with any other positive actions you could potentially follow through with? If so, can you share those?

Once removed
Excerpt
you are speculating as to why she didnt block you on instagram. this situation is not dire because either of you have been reading the other well. it got me, many of us tripped up, confused, and working against ourselves.

Excerpt
if you want her back, you need a plan that is solutions oriented. powerful demonstrations like the suggestion to put her advice in storage, and with great care. you may be right that her resolve is not at 100%, though it is likely those around her are going to be pushing it there.

Excerpt
dont construe the fact that she hasnt claimed her belongings as "leaving a door open" - do have an approach that she hasnt claimed her belongings, and that gives you an opportunity to make a powerful demonstration of amends.

Excerpt
the air is sufficiently clear. she left in emergency fashion and she said, twice, please dont contact me again.

Excerpt
i read some good advice here once. a member asked another "do you want to be right, or do you want to save your relationship?". it changed that members life, not to mention their approach, and most of all, their relationship. what do you think?

SIDE NOTE: I myself found I had to overcome my desire to “be right” … I had to learn there is no right or wrong, there are feelings and emotions on both ends. Hers and yours. Both equally important.  With that being said, I also had to learn the only feelings/emotions I could control are my own. With that, my responses and reactions. It was difficult, I am still learning. Accepting I needed to in the first place was step number 1 for me.

Excerpt
this is a bigger situation than the fact that she hasnt blocked you on one social media site, whereas twice she has told you not to contact her and told you shes in a "safe place". she is afraid. she is on the run. your communications to her basically tell her that this is all an inconvenience to you and that expectations are on her to clear the air. its the gist of your responses to advice given here. your focus is on tangential stuff.

if you want to save this, its going to require a radical perspective and approach change, but in the mean time, when every move counts double, you are shooting yourself in the foot.

are you ready to make this kind of change?

SIDE NOTE: Have you pondered this question? What does that change look like from your perspective? How will it positively impact your circumstance?

Harley Quinn
Excerpt
She has a right to decide without your influence what she does from this point, so this may be your ONLY opportunity to do the right thing by her and show her that you are capable of that.

Excerpt

Direction:  Stop placing blame.  (Whatever wrongs she may have done in the r/s, nobody is responsible for your actions but yourself and it is those actions that are the issue here which have caused her to leave)

Direction:  Rise above your anger and do the right thing about her belongings. 

It’s clear that you are angry, upset, seeking answers, etc.  I hope you can find some of those answers within the invaluable advice provided to you here as well as all the snippets sprinkled throughout the entire thread. My hope is you can see that sometimes “It takes a village” and from the looks of it, the whole bpdfamily Village has come out to offer you advice and show that we are in fact all here for each other.  Use this new day to your advantage. Try something new… even if you’re unsure whether or not it will do any good in bringing your situation a little bit closer to a positive outcome, whatever that outcome may be.

Take the time to take care of yourself. Focus on your own personal growth. How can your circumstances benefit you positively? What can it all teach you? What is something you can do Today for your own self-care?  Furthermore, how can we best support you in that?

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« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2017, 02:04:10 PM »

I'm not taking any of this advice - it's just weakling sh*t... .Roland park ladies tea

BALLS is what's needed here - she'll come crawling back eventually

Anyway thanks for your time, guys

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« Reply #42 on: September 17, 2017, 10:19:24 AM »

How is it going? Any updates?
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« Reply #43 on: October 24, 2017, 08:33:37 AM »

How is it going? Any updates?

What's up, Skip,... .I had this thread bookmarked, and I've stumbled across it today and wanted to apologise to people for being a bit abrasive, I know folks were attempting to give me advice and I became fairly sardonic towards the end. So - I'm sorry about that.

My update,... .

It's been 2 months and contact has been as follows:

September 17th of September I Private messaged her on Instagram with a blunt "what's the story with your stuff,... .to which she responded "you can throw it out",... .I matched the puerile nature of the response with one of my own saying "done. Take my name and picture off your profile",... .she complied and changed the picture of us to one of her alone, and removed the "Paul ❤️" part of the profile biography,... .I proceeded to block her and instantly regretted my decision,... .I then unblocked her, 3 hours later... .

A day later - somewhat remorseful for how short I had been with her I wrote an email, the contents of which amounted to several paragraphs but can be summarised as "I'm sorry for blocking you, I regret it and it's not very becoming for someone my age, I have since followed you back again; I've decided not to throw out your stuff, there is stuff here with clear sentimental value and I wouldn't be able to sleep at night knowing I threw it out, in a spiteful fashion" ... .I am well aware that if she was Physically standing in front of me she would not be asking me to throw out these items,... .and so the stuff is still in my apartment 2 months later,... .this email was ignored and she didn't follow me back on Instagram (for those unfamiliar with Instagram, once a person is blocked, they disappear from BOTH people's friend list)

Fast forward to 29th of September where I liked a photograohy picture she took on her profile, then invited her to a formal event via email (email at this point was the only line of communication I had left with her),... .I was direct and unemotional with the invite, using a cheerful, outgoing approach because I felt that since a month or so had passed that maybe the anger or the hate or fear or whatever she was feeling towards me had subsided somewhat,... .

This email was ignored, too

HOWEVER,... .

To my surprise SHE requested ME on instrgam that same night (29th September)... .obviously I was delighted, so I private messaged her an hour later saying "thanks for the add" ... .she ignored it... .the following day I decided to ask her if she wanted to attend the event with me ... .she ignored that message too... .

And that's where we are as of today,... .I have been no contact since September 29th as I truly felt this was DONE and DONE,... .I'm not without questions, though... .

Is she merely seeking attention ? Is she getting something from seeing me behave "desperately" (although I don't derive desperation from my recent DM's), is all form of contact from me meant to strengthen her and her self-esteem while making me appear weak ? Does ignoring me make her feel strong, give her an ego boost ? Does she want to control me by holding me hostage to silent treatment while at the same time being able to blame me for it ? If I get angry with her, she will be able to demonstrate with proof what her life was like living with "such a monster", if I get sad/introspective, she can paint me as weak and her as strong; Thereby reversing the effects of how she felt when I attacked her.

All of these statements and questions are relevant even in the circumstance that she has a new boyfriend even, or that she has moved on. The questions still apply. If she has a new boyfriend why would she go out of her way to court attention from me ? She would be so caught up in her new bliss that I would/should be an afterthought. If she hated me and cared very little, why would she request my friendship on Instagram ? Certainly she was cold enough to reject my earlier emails which admittedly were tinged with desperation and pleas, and certainly more dramatic than the liking of a simple picture, she certainly would have the capacity, in my opinion, to see that I had liked her picture and ignored that, too. Without question.


So my question is what's the outlook here, guys... .again I have been in touch in almost 4 weeks in any shape or form,... .

All I really have is friend request to go on,... .
Still want her back obviously, reached out to my dad and he said these things can take months
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« Reply #44 on: October 24, 2017, 08:49:42 AM »

So, to summarize: she asked you to leave her alone, she's ignored all of your communications, and she added you on Instagram. The simplest and cleanest explanation is that she wants you to leave her alone but she is mildly curious, so she added you.

You're generating a lot of scenarios out of this ... .as you said, you seem pretty obsessed. What steps can you take to get yourself to a more balanced place? Take a look at the toolbar on the right side of this page -- the first tool is called Wisemind, and it's about balancing your emotional reactions with thoughtful reasoning and self-control. What do you think?
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« Reply #45 on: October 24, 2017, 08:52:06 AM »

hi Paul,

People with this mental illness desire closeness and fear it.  both with incredibly intensity.   part of the illness is a fear of engulfment,  which is hard to comprehend when you first learn of it.   basically since pwBPD don't have a strong well defined sense of self they fear if they are with you they will disappear into you.  the other half of the equation is a desperate need for love and attachment.    managing those contradictory fears is what creates the push/pull I love you - go away,   I hate you don't leave me dynamic that we are all so familiar with.

in the word of social media, blocking/unblocking is a way to manage those fears.    that could be one of the things going on.   there may be others.


Excerpt
because I felt that since a month or so had passed that maybe the anger or the hate or fear or whatever she was feeling towards me had subsided somewhat,... .

pwBPD have harmfully intense emotions that flip from all one, to completely the other.   It's called splitting.   there is no really good way to figure out how long splitting takes but it is  recognized that returning to emotional baseline, takes longer for a pwBPD.

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« Reply #46 on: October 24, 2017, 09:24:14 AM »

Her walking out most likely meant one of two things:

She is done -or-
She wanted to send a strong message for you to change.


Does that sound reasonable?
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« Reply #47 on: October 24, 2017, 09:34:43 AM »

hi Paul,

People with this mental illness desire closeness and fear it.  both with incredibly intensity.   part of the illness is a fear of engulfment,  which is hard to comprehend when you first learn of it.   basically since pwBPD don't have a strong well defined sense of self they fear if they are with you they will disappear into you.  the other half of the equation is a desperate need for love and attachment.    managing those contradictory fears is what creates the push/pull I love you - go away,   I hate you don't leave me dynamic that we are all so familiar with.

in the word of social media, blocking/unblocking is a way to manage those fears.    that could be one of the things going on.   there may be others.


pwBPD have harmfully intense emotions that flip from all one, to completely the other.   It's called splitting.   there is no really good way to figure out how long splitting takes but it is  recognized that returning to emotional baseline, takes longer for a pwBPD.

'ducks




Yeah I hear you, ive read a lot into the condition, I know all this splitting and. Intense emotions stuff


Still the bottom line to me is that if she wanted me GONE as these guys are saying, she wouldn't need to check up on me or want to

"Mild curiosity" doesn't really cut it - not if she wanted me out of her life


I mean what the heck else was I gonna do , of course I was going to message her when I saw she had added me on Instagram. She had to have known that. I had not heard from her in over a month and change at that point ,... .it's puerile to assume differently

But like I said I've left it go and it's going on a month with NC, what will be will be I guess

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« Reply #48 on: October 24, 2017, 09:39:46 AM »

Her walking out most likely meant one of two things:

She is done -or-
She wanted to send a strong message for you to change.


Does that sound reasonable?


Yeah - but it still doesn't hold her to account for her actions in adding me back to her social media

Why would you even want to be near me after what I did ? Much less check up on me ?

She still cares, obviously

nobody is going to convince me that if someone truly was FINISHED with emphasis on FINISHED, that they'd still need to check up on me like she is obviously attempting to do,... .I'll see how it plays out, but I haven't went back on my word, I haven't sent one message to her since August that is smothered in emotion and love and etc,... .I know that'll only make me look pathetic, so essentially I'm still waiting it out, but I have no intention of letting those signals such as "requesting me on Instagram" pass by unnoticed ... .that to me was a statement on her behalf and I followed up on it, like ny concerned/sane person who cares about her would do
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« Reply #49 on: October 24, 2017, 09:51:13 AM »

OK, so let's go with "she wanted to send a strong message for you to change".

This is consistent with the leaving your photo on her profile. This is consistent with her having "I love   ". This is even consistent with leaving her stuff behind. This would also explain the Instragam access - a breadcrumb left in the trail she ran away on... .

Does this seem to be a possible explanation?
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« Reply #50 on: October 24, 2017, 09:57:44 AM »

Excerpt
Yeah - but it still doesn't hold her to account for her actions in adding me back to her social media
Believe what you like... .
Of course... .
However, I could certainly see a scenario, where I am done with a guy, do not want them in my life, but also want to keep them on social media.  I cannot guess what she is thinking.  However, if I felt someone was unsafe for me, I may want to keep tabs on them in order to feel safe.  I may want to keep them on social media to be i formed of update like if they move towns, have a new love interest, and maybe to generally look for patterns on where their focus is cause it could help me feel a bit more aware of things generally.

Not saying this is the scenario you have.  Just saying, I can see One scenario where I would want to be aware of someone’s happenings even tho I am not looking for a relationship with them.  I am sure there are various other possibilities as well, so not really sure how soeculating can help.

Personally... .I had a positive relationship with my ex’s lawyer.  We actually bonded over some parenting stuff, got along great, we even hung out a time or two.  After my break up, she made a FB request to me that I accepted.  I kinda was excited to have her back in my life as a friend.  I assumed she would want to meet up, kinda touch bases, catch up on one another’s life.  I found it odd... .she made a friend request, but then never followed through to respond to any of my attempts for further contact.  Now, maybe she simply doesn’t use FB messanger or such. (Neither do I really) Yet, it really began to bother me.  After a year of being my friend, she made no efforts to interact.  Imo, this was suspicious.  I started thinking maybe she was keeping tabs on me to incriminate me in case something went doen between ex and I.  My ex, falsely accused me of being abusive... .even our MC attempted to reunite us and change his perspective on this, to no avail.  He was feeling violent and triggered, projecting it.  Anywhoo... .  it bugged me lots, after noticing a year of silence on the lawyers part... .why did she bother to friend me?  Neither of us actually post updates or famiky stuff... .so there was no reason or benefit to the friending.  I ended up unfriending her.  It unerved me thinking that ex was possibly using her to keep tabs on me, maybe report to him my whereabouts, if I move, or post anything incriminating.  I mean, I really do not know... .just... .way I saw it... .there was no other “good” reason for her to friend me but never connect.

So kindly... .
Maybe distancing is a safest course for you?  Idk, just sayin.
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« Reply #51 on: October 24, 2017, 10:42:14 AM »

Paul, you also have to take into account that this is likely a one sided situation for her... .let me explain. She's unlikely to be acutely aware that her actions to emotionally hurt you were hurtful... .as far as she was concerned she was just behaving in a manner that was absolutely necessary for the situation in hand and the emotions she was experiencing. What she is aware of is your physical and verbal response, that she is HIGHLY sensitive to. She's likely thinking "why on earth is the man I love hitting me, I haven't done anything to deserve this, I love him and he's supposed to love me". So, she is likely to have taken advice on fleeing a domestic violent man... .which you are... .the advice would likely to be to have an escape plan, run for the hills and don't look back. She is scared sh!tless of you. She will probably be advised not to come and get her things from you. HOWEVER, she also has strong feelings for you and may have even felt like she deserved the hitting, she may well be able to rationalise it and be having some inner torment with regards to reaching out to you "he wasn't so bad, he loved me". This is unlikely to be any different from any domestic violence victim... .some might even describe it as Stockholm syndrome.

If she came back to you... .couple of months down the line after you're all relaxed and happy again, she revs you up, like properly revs you up, accuses you of having an affair, says you're horrible to her... .all the bad things that hurt your ego... .will you slap her?

Don't ask for her back until you know for sure the answer to that is absolutely no, I will do XYZ instead.
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« Reply #52 on: October 24, 2017, 10:43:03 AM »

OK, so let's go with "she wanted to send a strong message for you to change".

This is consistent with the leaving your photo on her profile. This is consistent with her having "I love   ". This is even consistent with leaving her stuff behind. This would also explain the Instragam access - a breadcrumb left in the trail she ran away on... .

Does this seem to be a possible explanation?


Nah she took the picture and the message down per my request - otherwise it would still be there. plus - she told me to throw out her stuff, I didn't concede to that demand because I'm not going to dump her valuables into the street on a whim. She's prone to depressive episodes and has no money to have it collected - with that in mind I decided to hang onto the stuff. Lol she called my bluff in other words, I was trying to use her stuff as a way to lure her back eventually but she laid waste to that idea. Still - it's not right given I know she collects and hangs onto every little thing, there's no way she'd agree to having her stuff tossed in any other circumstance but to call my bluff and because she's depressed and privately she knows I'm not that heartless despite how "macho" I might come across,... .she knew I wouldn't throw it out


But from me to you - I'm tapped out at this point and I'm not making contact with her again until she does it first. Again it's going on a month of this silliness and life moves forward eventually,... .and to add - I have no made but three attempts since August to contact her, and one of those attempts was because she friended me on Instagram

I look at most breakups and I've had a pretty skewed vision of how quickly things reconcile, for me up until now, for instance, I was prepared to say 1 month was a lifetime to get ones mind in a place to reconcile. However - I'm fastly learning that it's more like 4-6 months before any success can really be made especially in circumstances like mine

With that in mind, I have to keep NC going


I like your breadcrumb and trail analogy - I mean - no matter which way you look at it, keeping that line of communication open sends a message, and it's not mere curiosity since I don't even post pictures or use the account , with my profession I don't use social media. So again - how I interpret it; is that she's saying "one step at a time" but we're "on the road to reconciliation" ... .it's just going to be at a snails pace,... .she either wants to be friends or wants to get back with me, otherwise there is no explanation in the world for wanting to re-add me on social media almost a month after I blocked her,... .especially when I don't use Instagram (this removes the prying eyes situation and how my life is going)
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« Reply #53 on: October 24, 2017, 10:51:28 AM »

Believe what you like... .
Of course... .
However, I could certainly see a scenario, where I am done with a guy, do not want them in my life, but also want to keep them on social media.  I cannot guess what she is thinking.  However, if I felt someone was unsafe for me, I may want to keep tabs on them in order to feel safe.  I may want to keep them on social media to be i formed of update like if they move towns, have a new love interest, and maybe to generally look for patterns on where their focus is cause it could help me feel a bit more aware of things generally.

Not saying this is the scenario you have.  Just saying, I can see One scenario where I would want to be aware of someone’s happenings even tho I am not looking for a relationship with them.  I am sure there are various other possibilities as well, so not really sure how soeculating can help.

Personally... .I had a positive relationship with my ex’s lawyer.  We actually bonded over some parenting stuff, got along great, we even hung out a time or two.  After my break up, she made a FB request to me that I accepted.  I kinda was excited to have her back in my life as a friend.  I assumed she would want to meet up, kinda touch bases, catch up on one another’s life.  I found it odd... .she made a friend request, but then never followed through to respond to any of my attempts for further contact.  Now, maybe she simply doesn’t use FB messanger or such. (Neither do I really) Yet, it really began to bother me.  After a year of being my friend, she made no efforts to interact.  Imo, this was suspicious.  I started thinking maybe she was keeping tabs on me to incriminate me in case something went doen between ex and I.  My ex, falsely accused me of being abusive... .even our MC attempted to reunite us and change his perspective on this, to no avail.  He was feeling violent and triggered, projecting it.  Anywhoo... .  it bugged me lots, after noticing a year of silence on the lawyers part... .why did she bother to friend me?  Neither of us actually post updates or famiky stuff... .so there was no reason or benefit to the friending.  I ended up unfriending her.  It unerved me thinking that ex was possibly using her to keep tabs on me, maybe report to him my whereabouts, if I move, or post anything incriminating.  I mean, I really do not know... .just... .way I saw it... .there was no other “good” reason for her to friend me but never connect.

So kindly... .
Maybe distancing is a safest course for you?  Idk, just sayin.


Sounds a bit like how my situation could turn out in the future - except there are some differences. Her family is extremely antisocial and have multiple documents supporting this online. Whereas my family are educated and upstanding people in the community. None of us have ever been in trouble with the law.

My thinking is - if she was using social media as a means to keep safe, she'd do anything but open herself up to the potential for me to start threatening her - in fact - if she was doing it for that reason it would be to lay a trap and incriminate me, but I'm not stupid, none of my communication has been remotely threatening or abusive. You make a good point about knowing my whereabouts - but I don't use the app at all, not even one picture or post on my account and it's been that way for years. I only use the Instagram to follow photography accounts. None of my friends know I use it. Only her, exclusively. She is the only person on earth basically, that knows my account.

Your ex sounds a lot sneaker than mine, also. My ex was not nearly as assertive as that. She is more anxious and awkward when out in those kinds of situations than fuelled on by a desire to inflict damage. She's a classic rage turned inwards type, it rarely ever spills outwardly
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« Reply #54 on: October 24, 2017, 11:19:43 AM »


Paul, you also have to take into account that this is likely a one sided situation for her... .let me explain. She's unlikely to be acutely aware that her actions to emotionally hurt you were hurtful... .as far as she was concerned she was just behaving in a manner that was absolutely necessary for the situation in hand and the emotions she was experiencing. What she is aware of is your physical and verbal response, that she is HIGHLY sensitive to. She's likely thinking "why on earth is the man I love hitting me, I haven't done anything to deserve this, I love him and he's supposed to love me". So, she is likely to have taken advice on fleeing a domestic violent man... .which you are... .the advice would likely to be to have an escape plan, run for the hills and don't look back. She is scared sh!tless of you. She will probably be advised not to come and get her things from you. HOWEVER, she also has strong feelings for you and may have even felt like she deserved the hitting, she may well be able to rationalise it and be having some inner torment with regards to reaching out to you "he wasn't so bad, he loved me". This is unlikely to be any different from any domestic violence victim... .some might even describe it as Stockholm syndrome.

If she came back to you... .couple of months down the line after you're all relaxed and happy again, she revs you up, like properly revs you up, accuses you of having an affair, says you're horrible to her... .all the bad things that hurt your ego... .will you slap her?

Don't ask for her back until you know for sure the answer to that is absolutely no, I will do XYZ instead.


Its hard having to sit here and read this stuff being said about me - but I can't argue with any of your post as far as my identity in this relationship being that of a domestic abuser and that the person I love is sacred, hard to say the least. But I can't look at it any other way than logically and pragmatically - and you're right. She is scared, I am a domestic abuser who has hit a woman, and why else would she want anything to do with me unless for retribution. It all makes perfect sense.

What also makes sense - and this is where it's murky - is yoir comment about Stockholm syndrome, and how this is similar to a lot of domestic violence situations. Again - I don't really want to be with someone who afraid of me and who feels like they deserve to be slapped - I mean - retrospectively I don't know what got into me, but the murky thing about the quiet BPD waof is the subtle ways she used to provoke me, and I'm a person who is EXTREMELY conscious of everything that goes on around me - I have had this nervous sensitivity thing to my environment since a child - and not a lot escapes me - I'm also a lot smarter than my ex girlfriend and when she tried to pull the wool over my eyes I put my foot down, period. There was none of this second guessing my sanity stuff that she was trying to pull off. Taking her cues from her parents who would always be convincing her that the other one was "mad". No such issue with me. I am straightlaced in all my dealings. Reality and logic are king.  If something is bothering me - I communicated it for hours with her, but I came to find out she was using all this communication as ammunition to rile me up when she was feeling disagreeable - and instead of expressing it she would go to these underhanded tactics


None of it was lost on me and I wasn't having it under my roof

For a year or two I put up with it but eventually I snapped because I was being taken for a fool, and that combined with mocking smiles while she was doing this stuff deliberately to defy issues I thought we'd put to bed and it just got to this point. And it's even harder for me because of how my personality is structured , these were vulnerabilities of mine that i trusted her with. And vulnerable is not how I present to the world. Just all seemed like a huge joke to her. Worse was trying to get her to care. She feigned empathy in the most thinly veiled manner possible. It was more insulting when she tried to care than when she didn't care at all.

You're right in the sense that she may feel she deserved it but I dont feel any better about that than she does. trust me.

All of this I am learning about with her condition. This is how she inwardly rages. She's not the type to make accusatory remarks like you suggested (affairs or laying blame) it's much more passive-aggressively subtle - like singing songs with lyrics that are aimed at something dear to me, or deliberately not doing a task she has committed herself to doing on my behalf - and I'm not in the house yelling at her like some kind of drill sargeant - this is all politely asked for and agreed to ahead of time. It's stuff like that and then when things don't go my way in the world, it appears she takes pleasure or relishes it and that she sees it as some form of inadequacy instead of consoling me about it. That stuff kills me. Worse still is that I feel embarrassed as hell having to ask for that stuff from a woman. So for her to understand this and to keep up with it and not explain why just eroded my patience down to nothing


Maybe we aren't meant to be under that dysfunctional dynamic but I'm not perfect either

If she was to come back I'd certainly look at therapy and anger management - and she would definitely be advised by me to look into this DBT stuff im reading about
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« Reply #55 on: October 24, 2017, 12:35:50 PM »

Nah she took the picture and the message down per my request... .

You are misunderstanding what I wrote.  

1. She left to send you a message about changing they way treat her (most likely dominate her). The fact that she didn't erase you (my point earlier) supports that. The reason a women walks out like that is because a man isn't listening.

2. By holding her stuff to "lure her back" and going NC, you sent her a message that you aren't interested in what is upsetting her, you are trying to "dominate" her back. She realized how bad things are and didn't play.

3. When you sent the September text, is was more of the same. Power and domination. Or to use your words "balls". She further realized how that you weren't interested in hearing her are and didn't play.

4. When you sent a conciliatory note... .she gave you a tiny nod of validation (the tiniest possible). She hasn't closed the door.

You can run a relationship this way. Being dominate and aggressive with a weak person, is a type of coupling. You can cycle through battles like this and prevail a number of times. Typically it comes to one battle too many and the women walks for good. I've read the story here, 1,000s of times.

Sending her her stuff in a caring way and then reaching out to hear her (rather than go somewhere) would have been a constructive play.

Holding her personal items hostage. Having a temper exchange via email. Being contrite. Bouncing to NC. It's a pattern she knows - and doesn't like.

But most importantly, this is only advice. It's your ballgame. You don't need to hear members here either.  Being cool (click to insert in post)

You call the plays. You win or lose the game.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #56 on: October 24, 2017, 01:05:15 PM »

So - if all that is true (I'm not saying it is),... .what's the next step,... .

I mean sh*t, the only thing I have is this Instagram thing,... .

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« Reply #57 on: October 24, 2017, 01:42:40 PM »

So - if all that is true (I'm not saying it is),... .what's the next step,... .

Decide if that narrative seems real and if your can commit to listening to her and changing your "it takes big balls" approach to love.

We can give you tactics to temporarily "lure her back" (we gave you one with the returning her stuff in really nice containers), but what the above narrative suggests is that significant change in your mindset is necessary to actually improve your relationship.

I don't sense that you are up for that, though. Your words suggest that being true to your dominant style is more important than this relationship.

Dominance and strength aren't the same thing. Most likely she is attracted to one and repelled by the other.
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« Reply #58 on: October 24, 2017, 02:47:57 PM »

Hi Paul

Excerpt
Worse still is that I feel embarrassed as hell having to ask for that stuff from a woman.

Could you elaborate on this a little?  I'm intrigued.  Would you feel less embarrassed asking someone who wasn't a woman?  What was it you asked her to do for you?

Going back to your confusion around Stockholm Syndrome.  I was physically abused by my ex partner and despite that and the fear it created within me - which led to my self preservation steps much like your ex - I still had love for him.  It hurt like hell to leave him and I did still care about his well being.  I hoped he could find it in him to change.  Not for me, for our relationship, but for himself and his future happiness.  Unless he takes the steps to address his own issues he will hurt others and will never find a lasting relationship with someone as every woman will eventually leave him as I did.  I can see why she might want to keep a link open.  Even if she still loves you however, it does not guarantee a way back.  Not without serious work, self reflection and commitment on your part to lasting change.  Before she will even think of going near you, I'd suspect.  Perhaps she is hoping to hear something from you that shows you are taking real tangible steps to own what you've done and ensure it can never happen again.

I'm not saying this is necessarily your next step, as there are (as Skip has advised) other small steps you can take to pave the way for better communication and to show her you care, but at some point you need to get real with yourself about the abuse, face your demons and then get real with her about it - if she gives you that chance.   

Love and light x
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« Reply #59 on: October 24, 2017, 02:57:23 PM »

So nothing then ... .


I guess I'll see you guys again For an update in a Couple of months

Be well
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« Reply #60 on: October 24, 2017, 03:00:59 PM »

Paul, reading these things can't be easy for you and I respect the fact that you're reaching out and looking for answers.  I can tell you what I'd want to hear from my ex if you are willing to listen?

Love and light x
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« Reply #61 on: October 24, 2017, 04:24:50 PM »

 I didn't get to where I'm at in the world listening to others, friend
This is merely chatter I'd have in a bar with strangers and nothing else, except I don't want people to know that I've hit a woman, obviously


At the end of the day, there are a million variables one simply does not have enough time to type about this situation outside of broad strokes, and then you get this one size fits all, add-water-and-stir advice which is fair enough but ultimately useless, like bar chat

The main thing is I don't have a way in anymore with her, she has not returned any of my messages and if I attempt it again - I dunno - I'm just not able to swallow any more of my pride - I know pride and arrogance shadow my life in a lot of ways but c'mon she's a grown woman of 29 - if she wanted to talk to me she'd talk to me, if she wanted to be here she'd be here,... .her "condition" notwithstanding


I see no point in bringing this to her attention again, say I was to approach her and said I was taking classes for anger,... .cool,... .she ignores that too,... .then what ?,... .I walk away feeling d*ckless again,... .she'll never appreciate what it took for me to bring myself to type those emails in August after SHE walked out on ME,... .I was genuinely crying writing the emails ,... .my dad nearly had a stroke when I told him that, given the facts and all I've done for her,... .she's lazy, and self-indulgent and she pushed me to this point - but yet I still can't bring myself to wash my hands of her, which would be considered orderly at this point, but getting back on my hands and knees promising the sun, moon and stars ... .

Not. F*cking. Likely.

That ship has sailed,... .

She can woman up and approach me,... .

I mean, by all means, let me hear what you'd like to hear if it was you,... .but I have a feeling you're a different style of individual than her, more caring and less cold, therefore approachable... .I could be wrong, but would you classify yourself as a BPD of the waif variety, or if you've vegetated on this forum long enough to know the mechanics of how they think I'm all ears

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« Reply #62 on: October 24, 2017, 05:02:22 PM »

So nothing then ... .


I guess I'll see you guys again For an update in a Couple of months

Be well

Thanks.

See you then.
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« Reply #63 on: October 24, 2017, 09:03:41 PM »

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