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Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse... Have you considered that being critical, judgmental, or invalidating toward the other parent, no matter what she or he just did will only make matters worse? Someone has to be do something. This means finding the motivation to stop making things worse, learning how to interrupt your own negative responses, body language, facial expressions, voice tone, and learning how to inhibit your urges to do things that you later realize are contributing to the tensions.
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Author Topic: Does Ruminating Ever End?  (Read 808 times)
Pretty Woman
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The Greatest Love is the Love You Give Yourself


« on: August 15, 2017, 10:00:58 PM »

I am almost three years out from this relationship, three years 0 contact from either end, and I still wonder... .will she ever each out?

Instinctively and rationally I know if she were to do this I could not respond. For her safety and mine, any contact would lead us back down the rabbit hole and I refuse to go there. Still, even after reading countless books on BPD and understanding the diagnosis, I ponder if she ever loved me. How can you love someone one minute and hate them the next? I dont operate like that, perhaps I'll never understand because I'm not disordered. When I say something I mean it. I don't say I love you... .
Unless I really love you.

Everyday I think about her. I think about the girl I thought was my friend going for her (her now partner). I think about how my ex's sister hates me, calls me the devil, yet she hangs out with my ex and her GF regularly. I think about how all I wanted was a nice family and spending time with each other's families and this family hated me.

I know my ex does not define me but I do care what she thinks. I shouldn't but I do. To have done good things for someone and to be considered an evil manipulator, an abuser is hard to swallow. I struggle in my new relationship with even wanting to be in one. My heart isn't open anymore because I don't want to ever go through something like this again.

I may look the same on the outside but inside I'm not the same.  I'm very wounded, very pessimistic and non trusting. I wonder if I'll ever be myself again or if this is me now.

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« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2017, 06:07:53 AM »

3 years is a long time to still ruminate over a past relationship. Have you considered talking to a therapist?

Nobody deserves to be stuck over a failed relationship, you deserve to be happy and living your life to the fullest.
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« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2017, 11:22:58 AM »

Hi PrettyWoman,

It is hard isn't it?   

What do you do to stop the rumination? What have you learned/ what tools do you use to move past the feelings?

Marti
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« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2017, 04:33:25 PM »

3 years is a long time to still ruminate over a past relationship. Have you considered talking to a therapist?

Nobody deserves to be stuck over a failed relationship, you deserve to be happy and living your life to the fullest.

She knows that ... .that was the point of her post.

Therapy doesn't offer a quick fix (or even sometimes a long fix) to a wound of this nature.

PW, I identify with what you wrote. I feel similarly. I have done so much work to try to resolve the impact this had on me, but it persists. There is a fundamental pessimism and defensiveness I feel now. I can't imagine letting myself feel comfortable and safe with anyone again at a deep level.

I think it IS a very damaging experience, particularly so for some of us who came in with an existing fracture somewhere in our heart or psyche that gave way under this new injury. I'm sorry it's so hard. It is for me too.
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« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2017, 06:07:03 PM »

Just wanted to say I feel for you and I ruminate all the time. The wound is deep.

I think you touched on the redeeming aspect though, in that you do NOT ever have to go through this again. The pain is awful, but I think we can learn from it and I think it has meaning in getting you connected with others in the way you want and deserve. Sometimes all we can do is accept where we're at. We fell is love, it ended abruptly, and it hurts. I get scared wondering if it will end too. Be kind and patient with yourself.
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« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2017, 04:21:53 PM »

Hullo Pretty Woman, I'll ruminate on ruminating--which truly is a vexing purgatory to reside in. However, peace may be afforded to the weary. Because really, it is a state of mind--and at present we still get to control our own thoughts--until a day comes in the future when we'll all be implanted with happy chips. Though until then... .

We ruminate over a myriad of aspects, though most commonly:

1) How our pwBPD made us feel.
2) Still caring about what our pwBPD thinks/feels about us.
3) Lost aspirations concerning the former relationship.
4) Sex.
5) Sex.
69) Sex (I'm showing my bias).

Why do we ruminate?

Commonly, because it is the only remaining avenue left for us to hold onto the attachment. Perhaps not even consciously or volitionally. Yet, it demonstrates that one's psyche is rebelling against letting go.

Now, for each person who excessively ruminates there will be a deeply individual and personal reason that they can only know--concerning why they are rebelling against letting go. Which must be sorted and figured out so that peace may prevail.

However, having a pwBPD stuck in your head like a not-so Great Gazoo from the Flintstones is a really annoying and detrimental gadfly to carry around. Especially, when they constantly poke you in the eye with a sharp stick. That's no fun at all!

So, if you can figure out why you're rebelling against severing the attachment that will go a long way towards making progress.

Yet, that alone is not enough. One must employ reason in defense against one's feelings. One must prioritize reason over immature (aka dumb) feelings--to get with the living and give up the dying.

I remember your descriptions of your pwBPD's relational history and behavior. If that was accurate, it can only be objectively described as an utter nightmare, or more generously nonsensical, foolish insensible. That's who you are ruminating over. Is it sensible to excessively ruminate over a perpetually broken clock that tells time so haphazardly that you never know whether you're coming or going?

However, the refrain will be he/she made me feeeel soo good! They loved bombed me to death.

Well, most adults catch on at some point, that it is entirely possible to feel great, be madly in love and go crazy over the worst possible candidate one could ever choose for a stable relationship. Thus BPDF's existence. Either one continues chasing that dragon into the abyss, or one wises up.

Next, an allegory or metaphor. You have the most wonderful loving greatest superb dog in the world. With one major problem, it loves jumping fences and running away. It's always so happy to see you when you come home, it protects you, it loves taking walks with you--but given the chance the ___ (see I get to use that word in its proper context), keeps on jumping fences and runs away.

Sadly, one day your loving Ruffina jumps the fence, runs into the street and get squashed into a bone pancake by a semi-truck.

Now, you're definitely going to ruminate about Ruffina for a while. How much she loved you, how loyal, her ceaseless wagging tail. However, are you going to ruminate that she hated you, wanted her freedom, disliked living with you--because she kept on jumping that fence and running away. Of course, not. She's a dog and inexplicably sometimes that is their nature. It would be foolish to ruminate over that.

Consequently, the lesson is don't ruminate over a ___ (I mean dog) with a deeply rooted detrimental contrarian nature--because it's foolish. I'm being half serious. She loved you in her own extraordinarily bent way. Though you're not with her, because deep down you acknowledged that it just wasn't good enough for what you really want day-in-day-out, in the fur reals world. Therefore, laugh at ruminations, or make them pleasant until they desist. The mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Now for me, the hardest (pun intended) element to let go of was the perceived sexual pinnacle. My pinnacle missed her for eons. The day-to-day relations were always good. Though, at times she would be on substances, especially anything that was MDMA like--the ecstasy that followed was beyond what any deity should allow mere mortals. It was everything that I could ever want, sans intimacy. The only catch was that it was being experienced with a severely clinical pwBPD. I used to ruminate over that, as if I were watching pornos in my mind. However, once I increased my actual porn consumption to disordered levels, all the ruminating went away (that's a joke). Seriously, the ruminating stopped, because in many ways it was the same as porn. She was my friendly neighborhood porn star living in my house. Yet, were we really intimates?  Yes, she made me feel great on occasion, but at what cost? I tried teaching her the ways of intimacy. Though she was much better at porn. So, since I don't have a sex addiction (at least I don't think so) continually ruminating about the sex would be farcical, and I'm a very serious person--on demand. It would be like ruminating everyday over your favorite porn actress/actor. That sounds kind of sad to me. Thus, reason is a very good defense against my own foolish thoughts. Free will, it's lovely that we still possess it.

I know that there's no easy answer for the things that you describe. I know that it's a huge messy struggle. I lived with my pwBPD for quite some time. I can easily ruminate if I choose to. And I can easily stop if I want to. When I ruminate about living with her, the same feeling always immediately envelops me. This huge sense of depressurization and relief. I ruminate about how good it feels, how peaceful, that I no longer have to live such a complicated life. I'm actually very good with people who have BPD. I get along with them relatively well. I even like them on the whole. However, I can't deny that I breathe a sigh of relief when I come home from work and she's not there. And this concerns a woman I loved for almost a decade. I still have "a" love for her. We do know each other down to bone. Though excessive greed in a consumerist society grows stale. No need to ruminate because I had enough.

Did you have enough or too little? It matters... .

I hope the below video link helps you. It's not on this exact topic, but it is relevant to the issues here. Small steps climb a mountain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nkbmQeJvr8           
     
   
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« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2017, 10:20:08 AM »

I know where you're coming from, especially with this most recent discard by my BPD friend (acquaintance... .whatever she's considered now).  It's hard to tell what was real and what was not real, and it's hard to trust.  For me, I want to think that she's working on herself and working to become a better person, and she has shown signs of it, but she's not in therapy, so there's only so much she can do.

Sometimes, I ruminate on past events to convince myself that this time is no different from any of the other times.  Her mother recently told me that my friend is so happy in her life, that her whole attitude has changed, that she's moving out of her crappy apartment and building up her credit so that she can eventually buy a starter house.  Her mother even went as far as to basically tell me that this last discard is all my fault and that I'm a vile person.  That hurt a lot, especially coming from a woman who once told me that her daughter is the definition of a__hole and that she loves her because she's her daughter but completely dislikes her as a person.  But then, I remind myself of all of the other times that her mother told me she was "so happy" and that she was "really maturing" and "becoming a different person."  A few weeks later, my friend would do or say something, and her mom would say, "I really, really thought she was changing this time."  Just because she's mirroring a more mature, responsible boyfriend doesn't mean that she can sustain that in the long run. 



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So when will this end it goes on and on/Over and over and over again/Keep spinning around I know that it won't stop/Till I step down from this for good - Lifehouse "Sick Cycle Carousel"
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« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2017, 10:47:58 AM »

I am almost three years out from this relationship, three years 0 contact from either end, and I still wonder... .will she ever each out?

Does Ruminating Ever End? Not when you are holding out for another chapter in this story. You're still very attached. Even if you didn't respond to a email from her, it would feel connecting as would your silence feel like a response back.

At some point we truly let go and move on. You just aren't there yet.

PW, this was a very significant relationship for you - a first of it's kind - and your connection is/was about more than just having a partner - it said something about you, to you.  Connections to those type of relationships don't lay down easily.

At the same time, three years is a very long time. It's a long time to still hold on and not move forward. It sounds like, even with a new relationship, you aren't able to fully engage.

Why do you think that is? What is lacking in the relationship?

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Pretty Woman
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« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2017, 06:28:49 PM »

Hi Skip,
  Thank you for the response, and thank you to the others that commented. I have never done well with rejection. I still harbor resentment towards a friend who dumped me seven years ago.

I take things very personally and I've never been one to just shrug my shoulders and walk away from rejection. I am definitely a person who craves acceptance.

The funny thing is I enjoy being alone. I like my downtime and don't need someone to be happy which is very contradictory to the need to be accepted.

I think I struggle for several reasons. I honestly never dated anyone seriously. I'm very immature in that area, secondly my ex's sibling works with me and is hell bent on trying to get me fired.  I think sometimes I wish my ex would reappear just to see the record straight. I know she won't, but my heart holds out... .not that I want her in my life in any capacity. I just don't like being a target.

It feels like my entire life shifted with this relationship. I'm not interested in dating yet I have someone living with me. I'm so angry from being betrayed and slandered I know that's what holds me back.  I'm very logical and I know how she feels shouldn't and doesn't define me. Still, I am
Affected.  There are good days and I haven't cried in over two years over this or anything, I'm more angry than sad... .still I wish there was a day I did not think about this event in my life.
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« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2017, 06:21:50 PM »

It feels like my entire life shifted with this relationship.

Mine did.

My relationship re-organized my entire emotional structure. 

In some ways that was good.   I learned some very important lessons about relationships.   I learned to really consider another person.  I am, by far, a much better person for having been in my relationship.

In some ways that was bad.    Like P&C, I have residuals.    Mine are fear and shame.   I just,... .just reached the point where I am comfortable and not fearful while home alone.   If the door is locked.   I no longer feel like the sky will suddenly cave in.    The shame lingers.    When I take the risk of sharing my authentic self, I sometimes get enveloped in a shame storm.   My nasty inner critic tells me,... .why did you say that to that person at work?  they are going to think you are stupid.   Or why did you go and do that while you were out at that event, now people will hate you.

Having had the experience of having some one hate me, for being me.   Or thinking I am some how defective for being me... .I think it's going to happen again.   some how I believe if that person didn't hate me,  didn't blame me for all the evil in the world I would feel better.

I guess the real answer is I shouldn't let another person's opinions make me feel badly about myself.   easier said than done.   

PW I don't mind telling you that I fought and fought with some of this.    Until one day I let go.   I said that's it, that are parts of me that are irreparably broken.   Fine.   I am done wrestling with it, and the past and I accept I can't go back to the person I was before all this happened.   

What I am now,  I will accept and work with.   I accept that there are parts of me that are broken.   And I will take the broken parts with me as I go find a different life.   Right now that's all I got.

'ducks

 
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« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2017, 08:28:11 PM »

I have a couple of comments here. First, be careful not to fall into victim-hood. It is quite common. I think one the best aspects of many members here is to see that we are quite forgiving. I believe this is why we attract these types of people. Does the ruminating stop? I think it does, once you start looking at the tall 30k view from above.

I generally dislike hijacks of a thread, where we tell our own stories to relate. But in this case I might just say a bit on my own journey and why I rarely ruminate these days. I still have to see her weekly (shared custody) and I still have low NC. I can't have her exit out of my life. So here is what helped me.

I think NC is a mistake for healing. It is good in the beginning, but one should be able to maintain low NC and be 'okay.'   My ex did all those after relationship BPD things. Dating a coworker, reaching out when things when sour, trying to maintain that connection she would talk about. Understanding and knowing those points don't heal in themselves, at least not when one sees them from sea-level.

Here is what helped me-dating... .Some dates were with perfectly normal people who I just wasn't attracted too. A lot of that missing attraction had to do with me and not them. Other dates, well they were 0-60 in just two seconds. That is a spark, but that had little to do with me. But there was one, who was just a carbon copy of my ex. The background of how they grew up, the love-bombing, the pattern of relationships. And the one time they slighted me--this was only 4 months in. And I saw the pattern, I saw how it would grow and likely be the same. I saw my ex with BPD and I realized it is just this person being all who they could muster--the best of themselves and still be a pwBPD.

It was that last dating bit that helped stop the ruminations. When I look at my pwBPD I feel a bit of sorrow. Not so much that I want to fix it, but the the type not wish it on anyone. I look at her and see how she moves forward--the same as she did with me, the one before and the one now. I play the part I allow. It is almost comical at times. Or maybe a tragedy. Some Shakespearean play I never auditioned for, and now I don't show up as one of the actors. I might buy a ticket a for the show, but I leave everything on the stage for the performers.


These days, I can do without relationships. It sounds sad, but I think it is a good place to be.


So here, back to you--can we move past these relationships? I think yes, but it takes a moment to realize (no matter how good of a person you may be), that we got on stage with them. If you keep wishing to be an actor, it is tough to let go. I always wanted something else, I am sure you do to.
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« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2017, 08:38:50 PM »

Excerpt
I know my ex does not define me but I do care what she thinks. I shouldn't but I do. To have done good things for someone and to be considered an evil manipulator, an abuser is hard to swallow.

I understand this hurts and isn't right, it is pure projection from a mentally ill person who couldn't possibly bear the shame of her own actions. You must not let your self worth be determined by her.

You (we) will never be the same, we can get back the good and fix what led us to stay in such a painful relationship. The more you learn about BPD and your role in it and the longer you remain NC, the clearer things become.
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« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2017, 11:02:10 PM »

lovenature; How can PW do NC and heal properly when she has been working with her ex's crazy b*tch sister for years, who has a personal vendetta againest her, and who also has been trying to get PW fired? It's bad enough to truly have loved the most damaging and toxic type of woman on Earth, and then, have to work with her emotionally abusive sister. Finally, her current room-mate was also friends with her BPD ex, which makes it damn near impossible to heal properly and to get a fresh start. Reminders of her abusive ex are everywhere in her life, without boundaries. Personal experience has taught me and I really believe that in order to thoroughly get healed sooner from a toxic relationship, you must NC jobs, locations, relatives, friends, social media, everything your ex is a part of.  
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« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2017, 01:13:11 AM »

Personal experience has taught me and I really believe that in order to thoroughly get healed sooner from a toxic relationship, you must NC jobs, locations, relatives, friends, social media, everything your ex is a part of.  

There are many people here that recover without running away from their life. And there are many people who run away from their life who don't heal... .

This is an advanced board and which running away to great a break early on makes sense - break the enmeshment - the only true way to get past this is mental, no physical.

We have to detach. We have to let go. 
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Pretty Woman
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« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2017, 02:33:00 PM »

Hi Glenn & Skip,
    Thank you for all your comments. I am typing this from AZ on vacation and I can tell you a break away to see family has helped with the rumination issues Smiling (click to insert in post)
 
Glenn, first off, thank you for your compassion and concern. Yes, it sucks working with her sister l, not knowing when we might come face to face---we work on the same floor, yet at the same time it's strengthened me.  I'm not "scared" anymore. I kinda feel empowered. People usually make threats when they are scared. While it hurt me, knowing people really believe I'm some evil crazy person, now I use that to my benefit. She leaves me alone. Deep down she doesn't want her family issues to surface at work. I'm climbing the ladder at our company, I don't either.

Is it an ideal situation? No. But it's workable. I don't let her intimidate me. I do my work and I focus on why I'm there everyday which has nothing to do with my personal life or issues.

Skip, you touched on the fact I seem open to a recycle. I can say with 100% certainty while there are times I'd wish she'd contact me (just for my ego's sake) I have no desire revisiting everything Ive been through. I wouldn't want to jeopardize the life I have now which is significantly better.

I don't know if my ex is BPD. That is my analysis.  She meets all the criteria, still none of that really matters and deep down I know that. We sucked together. End of story.

My issues are deeper and that is what I'm working on. I'm aware of them, very aware. It's just a work in progress and why I keep myself in check coming to this board.
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Pretty Woman
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« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2017, 02:39:48 PM »

Tryingsome,
    Thank you for your comments. For me, NC is critical. I know myself. I know if I were to let my ex into my life nothing good would come of it. I've watched multiple exes of hers reconnect only to get discarded over and over. She is a recycler, even years later.

I'm better than that.  Again, that is my situation. If others want LC that is their decision and I respect it. I know myself well enough that reconnecting on any level A) shows her it's ok to treat me like crap B) shows myself I'm ok being treated like crap.

I'm different than I was before I met her.

For me to grow I need to let her go completely. Again, it's still a work in progress but I know it's what's best for me.  
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« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2017, 04:11:10 PM »

Hey pretty woman,
I know what you mean about the ruminating. If you remember we talked quite a bit about our relationship break ups and exBPDs. I am about 3 years out as well. It seems like that BPD relationship was a lifetime ago but yet it also seems like it happened yesterday. I find myself ruminating and asking myself "what if... ." lately. I hate it. But I am not going to punish myself for it. The one thing I have learned from all my reading and therapy is the healing takes time. We had an awful trauma done to us. You just don't get over it. It can linger for years is what my therapist said. So feel it and then move on.
I am living with someone now. He is fantastic and loves me. We talk about the future and I love him. But a section of my heart still aches for the BPD. Does she think about me?  Does she miss me?  Does she remember me at all?  I wonder will I ever hear from her again. Like you I know I can never respond even though I would want to but I know what it would lead to and I have already dug out of hell and I won't go back.
Be kind to yourself and give yourself time.
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« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2017, 04:54:25 PM »

I am living with someone now. He is fantastic and loves me. We talk about the future and I love him. But a section of my heart still aches for the BPD. Does she think about me?  Does she miss me?  Does she remember me at all?  I wonder will I ever hear from her again. Like you I know I can never respond even though I would want to but I know what it would lead to and I have already dug out of hell and I won't go back.
Be kind to yourself and give yourself time.

Is it really an issue of time, or is it about making a mental decision to let it go.

It may not seem like it now, but whatever you hold out for the ex is emotionally unavailable to your current love interest.


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« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2017, 02:16:15 AM »

Is it really an issue of time, or is it about making a mental decision to let it go.

For me it's never one thing.   It is usually some mix of all of the above.

I experienced many of the events of my relationship as traumatic.   It felt traumatic to me.   When the relationship ended I found it difficult to heal from the trauma while exposing myself to possible re-injury by communicating with my ex, seeing her, hearing about what she was/is doing.   

In a way, I see it as if I experienced a car accident,  it would be perfectly natural to avoid the intersection where the accident occurred for a while.   I think it would be perfectly natural to flinch when I drove through that intersection.   and it would be perfectly natural to replay the accident in my mind, since it had a large impact on my life.

I think if I work to increase my emotional intelligence I can learn to identify, label, manage and adjust to the new emotional environment I find myself in.

I can make a mental decision.   However, making a decision doesn't mean things become clear immediately and I need to be comfortable with that.   One of the more challenging things to adjust to, for me, was coping with the sense of vulnerability I felt/feel about and around her.   Here is some one I trusted, rightly or wrongly, completely with the intimate details of my life only to be emotionally clobbered by her.    I often feel a sense of being unsafe when I think of her and I believe I ruminate looking to create or rejuvenate a feeling of certainty and safety.    I don't mean physical safety.   It feels to me more like trying to create an emotional safe space internal to me where I can feel good about the relationship.    or at least feel comfortable about the relationship.

'ducks
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« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2017, 09:13:10 AM »

Skip just posted an interested article elsewhere on this board about the nature of the initial bond with pwBPD. It involves a unique degree of trust, openness and mutual exposure.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=314770.0

I believe once you've been there with someone and they then "clobber you," as Ducks says, it can (depending on our pre-existing makeup and experiences) create almost existential doubts about the meaning of all this, whether to trust, whether there is something we did to cause the betrayal (much like a kid abandoned by his or her parent will almost surely find it hard to completely de-personalize that). What it means for what is possible. What it means about whether we can ever really know anything or trust our own perceptions and judgment. All aspects of a traumatic betrayal.

For me, given certain prior experiences, what happened with my ex was like a carefully crafted cocktail of what could do the most damage to my sense of optimism, my view of myself and of life. I've accepted that it did deep harm, and I think I might not ever really be OK again. I hope it turns out otherwise, but it isn't a matter of making a decision to be OK. Self-forgiveness and self-acceptance mean I don't berate myself for my inability to get this all healed up.

Like PW and Ducks, I personally need to not be in touch with my ex. He's like a hurt generating machine, and the fact that I tried every which way to find ground with him where I could salvage something good where I would not be badly hurt again definitely made healing very tough. For me, he is like crack. Using a little bit isn't an indicator of growth and maturity.

But, due to the dynamics in the article Skip posted, because our relationship involved a great deal of mutual trust, trust that I intentionally kept trying to re-grow in a radical acceptance framework and with him telling me "I can't be trusted" (memo to self: do not attempt to prove such a statement wrong), the experience did a lot of damage. I've worked my butt off in various therapeutic approaches; tried stopping therapy in case THAT was making me stuck; re-started; poured myself into other meaningful engagement; but there's no question this has messed me up badly. I truly believe the way to go is deep acceptance that this hurt so much because it is supposed to, and not being self-critical about the time frame for "making a mental decision to let it go" (I don't know that that is a concept that applies to traumatic injury). Starting from there, doing what is possible for a deeply hurt person, and being open to change, and good things when they present themselves.

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