Advice for talking to a 10yo about BPD mom?

[Voltaire]

First post, happy to have found this forum on recommendation of my therapist. I've read quite a few of the recent threads and wow, it's both comforting and a bit terrifying to see the similarities between the situations described here and my own marriage of 18 years.

To be brief, my wife and I have been in couples therapy for the past year. Last week we had a pretty big fight. She descended into her customary pattern of name calling, blaming me for her problems, insisting that I don't love her, etc. But this time she added a new twist by accusing me of having an affair, of planning to leave her and have children with another woman. She was so emotionally overwrought that she was unable to sleep. I realized I was in over my head (again) and scheduled an appointment, this time alone, with our therapist.

As I related this tale to him he asked: "Is there a diagnosis that you suspect?"

"Well, I'm not sure. She has diagnosed her mom with BPD (dw has a master's degree in social work), and I've read that it can run in families."

"She is totally BPD. I could tell within 10 minutes of meeting you guys."

He recommended that I read everything I can find about the disorder. I just finished Randi Kreger's Essential Family Guide to BPD. Lots of good material there. He also recommended this site as a supportive community and strongly encouraged me to participate.

DW and I have 3 children, D16, S14, and D10. My therapist said I should speak with each of the kids privately and confidentially about mom's disorder. When the kids were younger, I was the only target of my dBPDw's rage, but the older two are now in the crosshairs. So it was pretty easy to have a candid conversation with them about what I've learned about BPD and what it means for them.

I'm struggling a bit with how to communicate this to D10. She is still not a direct target of BPD rage, but she sees it first-hand. Mom seems to be clinging to her as the last vestige of validation of her "goodness" as a parent.

How have you communicated with your similarly-aged kids about a BPD parent?

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[Cole]

Welcome, Voltaire.

Sounds like you have your hands full, sorry you are dealing with this. A BPD spouse can be exhausting.

Very similar story to mine. We have been through several MC's who were hesitant to make a dx, but who pulled me aside and recommended I read Kreger's Stop Walking on Egg Shells.

I have an Asperger's S14 and a D12. Son actually gets mom, as he has some BPD traits mixed in with his issues.

Have had a few candid talks with daughter. She is probably more emotionally mature than my wife, and just eye rolls when W goes on a tear.

The important things to teach your kids:
1. This is not your fault, mom was like this before you were born.
2. You did not cause it, you cannot control it, you cannot cure it.
3. How to establish strong boundaries.

I recently (yesterday) started seeing a PhD T on my own. It took him less than 5 minutes of listening to ask me if my wife had ever been dx as a borderline. I guess the professionals know one when they see/hear about one. One of the things we are going to work on is how I can help my kids establish those boundaries with my W. You may want to discuss this with a professional, as well.

Meanwhile, read all you can about this disorder. The lessons on this site and the support you will get from others can be a life saver.

[Voltaire]

Thanks, Cole. I truly empathize with your situation, it sounds similar on many levels.

I'm leaning toward a conversation with D10 along the lines you suggested: "You have probably noticed that there are times when mom gets angry and treats people badly. She's sick, and it's not her fault. It's not your fault, not my fault, not your sister's fault or your brother's fault. And none of us can make it go away. The worst part is that she doesn't believe that there is anything wrong with her, and she gets super angry whenever any of us suggest it. But there are some things we can do to help her treat us better, and you and I will talk about those some more in the future."

The boundaries for the kids question is one that I'm actively working on. Her rage runs the gamut from the cold shoulder to verbal abuse to mild physical violence (she's not strong enough to cause any real damage, but the frequency and magnitude of these outbursts seem to be increasing).

My therapist said I need to draw a hard line on violence: Get it on video if possible, take photos of any visible injuries, and call the police. I spoke with D16 and S14 this morning and told them that we need to do this the next time it happens. D was pretty scared by the idea of pulling out her phone and hitting record when mom is violent, she is afraid that mom will leave the family. I told her that it would be worse to do nothing, to acquiesce to the abuse through silence and inaction, and to grow up thinking that this is a normal and acceptable way to relate within a family. I asked D and S to keep an eye on each other and record any abuse that mom dishes out to the other, and to get out of the house to a safe place with a neighbor if I'm not around. This is particularly concerning because I travel sometimes for work, which seems to trigger W's fear of abandonment and infidelity.

I'm struggling a bit more with determining appropriate boundaries for W's verbal abuse of the kids. I've told them that they should not react, not defend, not show any emotion whatsoever that might reward W for dishing it out, that they can go to their room without saying a word when W is yelling, that they can go to a neighbor and call me. But I haven't been able to come up with many appropriate consequences for W when she behaves this way.

Some initial thoughts:

You yell at a kid about a household chore (we all share the work equally, and their work is obviously not as good as hers, so this happens all the time), then you do it yourself, or I will hire a cleaning service to do it.

You yell at a kid about not helping in the kitchen/eating the wrong snack/not eating what is served for dinner (next most common set of triggers), I'm taking them all to a restaurant.

These are going to be kind of fun because spending money is her kryptonite. The thought of me hiring a cleaner or taking the kids to a restaurant might be painful enough to reinforce these boundaries.

What boundaries and consequences have others found effective in dealing with a BPD spouse who is verbally abusing their children?

[Tattered Heart]

I do not have children, but I think the advice that Cole shared is spot on. Your goal is to try to heal the damage of what has been done and to help them learn appropriate communication skills and boundaries in regards to your wife.

We have a lot of workshops on the right side of the page with links to learning new ways to communicate better with your pwBPD.Perhaps you could begin going through these workshops and sharing them with your children. What does your T say about how to approach the children?

To get you started, here is a link to one of our workshops on Don't Be Invalidating

[Tattered Heart]

I'm struggling a bit more with determining appropriate boundaries for W's verbal abuse of the kids. I've told them that they should not react, not defend, not show any emotion whatsoever that might reward W for dishing it out, that they can go to their room without saying a word when W is yelling, that they can go to a neighbor and call me. But I haven't been able to come up with many appropriate consequences for W when she behaves this way.

Just some thoughts on this. Boundaries are not to be used to change someone else behavior or to punish them for not doing as you want them to do. Punishing her for her behavior is no different than her punishing you for your behavior. Consequences for your wife are the natural consequence that goes with the pwBPD choosing their own behavior. So for instance, if your wife yells at the kids, the natural consequence is that the children do not trust her, walk away from her, or avoid her. Not that she is reprimanded for her behavior.

Boundaries are taking responsibility for your own behavior. They are determining what your values are and making sure that you protect your values. Here's a link to our workshop on Boundaries. THis can help explain better what they are and what they are not.

You yell at a kid about a household chore (we all share the work equally, and their work is obviously not as good as hers, so this happens all the time), then you do it yourself, or I will hire a cleaning service to do it.

What is the value that you want to communicate in this scenario? Is hiring a cleaning service just a way to walk on egg shells or to fix the problem for her?

You yell at a kid about not helping in the kitchen/eating the wrong snack/not eating what is served for dinner (next most common set of triggers), I'm taking them all to a restaurant.

In what way could this be an opportunity to communicate to her that people have the right to make their own choices about food and their own behavior?

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[sweetheart]

Hi,

The key is equipping your children with understanding and skills that are age appropriate around all things BPD in the context of what having a parent with a mental illness.
My son is 9 1/2 and I started working with him around his father's mental illness when he was five. Basic info, making sure that his worries and questions were heard and validated, running interference at times of inappropriate escalating behaviours and actively removing my son from any situation that I did not want him around.
As our son has gotten older teaching him basic skills to remove himself from a situation has been as vital as me running interference for him. Fortunately none of my h's dysregulated behaviour has ever been directed at our son. My h has never been violent or threatening, but he has been verbally aggressive toward me and his behaviour has been intimidating and I have felt scared by his voluble anger and the extremes of his dysfunctional, dysregulated behaviours. My son whilst not exposed to this would have heard things that frightened him at the height of my husband's illness.

My son is also linked in with our local Young Carers organisation here in the UK where he meets up weekly with other same age kids who also have parents who have a mental illness. He accesses 1:1 therapy here and peer group support, as well as lots of fun activities and day trips in the holidays. It has been absolutely essential that my son gets emotional support not just from me as early as possible to ensure that he can develop his own emotional resilience around his father's illness and most important of all know that he is not alone.

I do not think it is a wise suggestion to your two older children that they spend anytime recording their mothers violent or escalating negative behaviours on their phones. This will only serve to keep them in a volatile situation longer than necessary and I feel that it also places them in an emotionally vulnerable position that it is your role to protect them from. Removing themselves quickly to a place of safety, their room or a neighbours if necessary is sound advice. Looking out for each other is good advice too.

Do your children have their own therapist, or any emotional support through their schools? If not this is an area of additional support that could be very important going forward especially for your ten yr old.

[Coffee BE Twin]

Since finding out my wife is BPD I have started coaching my D12 on how to talk and interact with her mom, I haven't so much as told her what her mom has, but i have hinted at a problem that is not anyone's fault. I have since made an appointment with a T for D12 so she can have someone to vent to and I will inform T about issue with mom. Wife told me that D12 has anger issues, but she doesn't realize the reason she is angry. She is angry at her mom, because mom berates and belittles her. Its unfortunate because I work away from home for a month at a time which amplifies WBPD abandonment issues tenfold. This now makes D12 the sole person to receive the attacks from.

I have been using  the lessons I have learned and that has been working great for me, but it still taking time and I accept that. I got into a discussion with her last night and she tried arguing about fighting about fighting, which i took no part in, so she tried expanding it to other issues. In the end I hung up because she broke my boundary I had set for yelling, I continued via text which took out the emotion eventually she calmed down. Its going to be a long slow journey, but I know I am trying and not giving up witch out a fight.

But I know I have my limits. Wish me luck.
 

[sweetheart]

Coffee BE Twin good advice re informing the T for your daughter and continuing to learn the lessons. They work!

[Cole]

Gotta take off my spouse of a BPDw hat and put on my former cop hat here.

Physical violence, no matter how insignificant, is not acceptable, as what is tolerated today is considered the norm for tomorrow until it escalates into serious child abuse.

As unsavory as it sounds, Mom going to jail on a domestic violence charge will not only reinforce that violence is unacceptable, but puts her in the court system. That is where a sharp prosecutor and pre-sentence investigator can give mandatory psych help as an alternative to jail time.

[sweetheart]

And just to add to Colessound advice. Teach all your children the importance of dialling 911/999 or whatever your emergency numbers are, as another layer of protection in any escalating violent situation with their mum.

[Voltaire]

Thanks to all of you for your comments, words of support, and good advice. I thought I would post an update:

Had the boundaries conversation with W and limited my topics to physical and verbal abuse. My boundaries are that I will call the police the next time she hits anyone, and that neither I nor the kids will be in the same room with her while she is raging verbally.

I felt before having this conversation that I should record it, so I started the voice recorder app on my phone and put it down on the nightstand before approaching W to talk. In retrospect, I'm glad I did. I brought up a specific instance from last weekend in which S14, D10, and I witnessed W strike D16 during an argument. W admitted that this occurred, revealed a second instance in which she struck D16 this past week for giving D10 a "mean look", and said that in both instances D16 "deserved it".

W continued ranting for 2 hours, taking responsibility for nothing and blaming me for everything she sees wrong with her life. She split and talked in circles and made up outrageously paranoid accusations while attempting to explain setbacks as mundane as an ATM declining her cash withdrawal ("because you are taking out too much cash and hiding it from me" -- in fact she tried to withdraw $400 when the bank's limit is $300 per day). All of this is recorded in painful detail in high-definition audio. Throughout the session I did my best to not defend myself, to listen mindfully, to validate her feelings, and to encourage her to keep talking. Amazingly there was no shouting, but she was (and remains) seething with anger.

I think this recording may be able to stand on its own:

1. She admitted to multiple instances of child abuse in the presence of our other children
2. She believes the victim deserved the abuse, so it is likely to continue
3. She likely demonstrated enough evidence to satisfy the diagnostic criteria for BPD

The morning after I spoke with W about my boundaries, I spoke with D10 about W's illness. The suggestions you all gave me helped tremendously. She told me that she has noticed mom's rages and usually leaves the room when they start. "When mom starts yelling, someone usually gets slapped."

I'm now convinced that, as Cole said, she needs to be in the court system. This is a devastating realization. She's in denial about her condition and her actions, she's a risk to our kids, and she's a risk to herself if she doesn't get help. I've tried to help her for the past 19 years but she won't receive it, won't go to therapy, and I realize now that I'm only enabling her bad behavior if I keep protecting her from the consequences of her actions. I've been speaking regularly with my dad, my pastor, and my T over the past week and whenever I start to try on a less-drastic approach, I hear myself going full Stockholm syndrome and it makes me physically sick.

I'm learning that I need to stay centered on my priorities, which in this case are:

1. Keep my kids (and myself) safe
2. Keep my kids (and myself) in an emotionally stable environment
3. Create an environment where W can get the help she needs

I've taken steps to make the house safer. All the guns are (and always have been) locked away, I've changed the safe combinations, and the keys are physically with me at all times. The kids all understand W's situation and now have an escape plan if she gets violent when I'm not in the room. I'm not going to leave the kids at home alone with W. My parents are standing by to fly out when we need them.

My biggest concern at present is the order of operations for the next few steps, especially when it comes to getting law enforcement involved. I'm going to move that to a new thread on the Family Law board.

[Cole]

My prayers go out to you and your family.

One thing my T told me. A pwBPD will not change until/unless they take responsibility for their actions. I hope this is the wake-up call that will get her the help she needs.