Approaches to Healthier Dating

[Depression = 72% of members]

ive learned a lot here about the dating world and relationships. ive learned a lot about over pursuing; ive had some tendency to do this and ive learned that not only is it self defeating, but i have a better idea of what constitutes it. ive learned a lot about how relationships evolve and devolve. ive thought harder about what i want and dont want in a partner, as well as what kind of partner i am and want to be - my personal strengths and limitations.

i still have a lot to learn. i had a conversation the other night where we talked about hypothetical, situational examples as they applied to values. when challenged, i realized that some values of mine were flexible to the point that they almost became abstract, and i found myself offering arguments that, boiled down, were on the side of not living by some of them. it wasnt lost on me that that was the case in my relationship(s).

i think its okay that im not sure on everything yet. i dont have a vast dating experience and thats part of the process of determining what you want and dont want in a partner.

in any event, i didnt start this thread to talk about my experiences, but it was my hope we would discuss approaches to healthy(er) dating. broad topic, i know.

i got to thinking about first dates. presumably, thats a scenario where you begin the process of getting to know each other. i want to discuss how we are going about that.

for instance, some people go into a first date with a list of questions. some people have long lists. some people have a few questions. some people tailor those questions to the individual. for some, the answers are more important than others. in some cases, the questions are just ice breakers that keep the conversation going.

what about you? do you have a list? whats on it? how do you grade the answers?

[once removed]

ive learned a lot here about the dating world and relationships. ive learned a lot about over pursuing; ive had some tendency to do this and ive learned that not only is it self defeating, but i have a better idea of what constitutes it. ive learned a lot about how relationships evolve and devolve. ive thought harder about what i want and dont want in a partner, as well as what kind of partner i am and want to be - my personal strengths and limitations.

i still have a lot to learn. i had a conversation the other night where we talked about hypothetical, situational examples as they applied to values. when challenged, i realized that some values of mine were flexible to the point that they almost became abstract, and i found myself offering arguments that, boiled down, were on the side of not living by some of them. it wasnt lost on me that that was the case in my relationship(s).

i think its okay that im not sure on everything yet. i dont have a vast dating experience and thats part of the process of determining what you want and dont want in a partner.

in any event, i didnt start this thread to talk about my experiences, but it was my hope we would discuss approaches to healthy(er) dating. broad topic, i know.

i got to thinking about first dates. presumably, thats a scenario where you begin the process of getting to know each other. i want to discuss how we are going about that.

for instance, some people go into a first date with a list of questions. some people have long lists. some people have a few questions. some people tailor those questions to the individual. for some, the answers are more important than others. in some cases, the questions are just ice breakers that keep the conversation going.

what about you? do you have a list? whats on it? how do you grade the answers?

[vanx]

Once removed, I think the thought you have put into relationships--your own approach, what you are looking for--will really pay off and help you navigate. I agree though that it is okay not to have it all figured out. 
I think both people can be pretty nervous on a first date, so if I were on one, I'd just be looking for some of the basics that are important to me: kindness, respect, maybe sense of humor, intelligence.
I'm taking things slow and looking for friends too, so if I encounter a basically decent person I enjoy spending a little time with, I'll see if she wants to meet again.
I don't have a very comprehensive list but maybe ought to work on one. Just wanted to wish you best luck dating with the work you've done!

[confusedbloke]

Hi Once.

I've just cancelled my date for Friday. I was very respectful and explained that I'm not ready etc. She was completely understanding. We have been texting since. She keeps trying to reassure that she just wants to be friends and spilled quite a lot in only a few texts. That put me off a bit. I think it's important to be sincere and honest, but I also think we should hold things back so we don't come across too strong. I am however meeting her, my friend and her friend at my local on friday as friends.

As for what to say, I tend to go down the humour route. That's always been my strong point with women. I like to make them feel happy and it makes me feel good to make people laugh. Although you wouldn't think so at the moment 

I think that conversation just naturally flows when the person is responsive. And is interested and makes an effort. So for this reason I don't make lists.

I never made exBPDgf laugh. She never got my humour. I got every other woman with my humour and they didn't work so again I tried a different kind if girl. Big mistake!

Just be yourself and if you're compatible, then happy days!

[Lucky Jim]

Hey once removed, My suggestion when it comes to dating is: try to let things unfold naturally, which sounds easy but is actually pretty hard.  When you meet someone you find attractive, there's a natural tendency to jump ahead and project how things are going to play out.  I suggest the opposite approach, which is taking things as they are and seeing where they lead, rather than following a strict timetable.  In other words, let go of the outcome and just let things develop.  Does this make sense?  Maybe I'm being too vague and abstract.

LuckyJim

[stimpy]

Personally, I'm not really a believer in having a list of questions that I want answered. My view is that that can come across more as an interview than a date, and dates should be fun, not a chore. I try to let the evening take it's own course. But I do very much take an interest in what my date is saying, and I try and listen intently to what they are telling me. I also look out for how much interest they have in me, my life, my interests etc... .

But overall, shared interest, shared sense of humour, respectful behaviour, how they might talk about their exes and family and their job, and above all any talk of the future... .what they might want, how they see their future evolving is very important.

Then there is the simple "gut feel"... .does what they say make sense, does it sound true, do I feel comfortable with them... .

Then the indefinable "spark", was I excited, nervous even as the minutes come up to meeting them, do I think about them the next day, do I really really want to see them again. Am I nervous asking for a second date.

[spacecadet]

Enjoy this thread, it's great. Once Removed, I admire you for the work you've done and continue to do in understanding dating and r/s.

I don't have a set list of questions, try to let things unfold and see where the other person is. Some people are more comfortable touching on intimate discussion in 1st or 2nd date than others. But definitely along with the light-hearted chit chat during a first date, I begin the process of assessing their character and outlook on life from little things they say.

Here and there I slip in questions to try to unfold the person a bit more, e.g. a couple years ago I saw someone a few times, there were some qualities I liked (great voice, so big for me, probably has an edge over appearance), plus smart, good work ethic etc. We'd both loosened up a bit and had some laughs, maybe third date. He griped a bit about his ex-w, and I said okay, you have some legitimate gripes, now what would her biggest complaint be about you? Based on his answer I knew I had just met my ex-h all over again.  

There is the TMI problem too. Another newish friend recounted dialogue from his therapy session (he's a therapist himself) in an early conversation and I think, uh, no.

I went on a first date last night, someone I've been talking with by phone for several weeks, like him very much. He's smart, kind, and funny. But I felt absolutely no attraction. Dang! Hate when that happens. Seriously, it's a drag.

[flourdust]

Posting to follow this. 

I haven't started dating yet, but I'm thinking about it. My last date was almost two decades ago. I don't know what the norms are now ... .or for people in my decade of life ... .or for people who have been divorced and have kids ... .or for how I want to approach dating so as not to repeat my mistakes of the past.

There's a whole lot I don't know.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey flour dust, The great thing about dating at our age (and I'm assuming that we are in the same general age bracket) is that there's no pressure to find a perfect match for marriage, because most of us have already been married or been through long-term relationships that didn't work out, so in my experience its more about finding someone with whom you enjoy spending your time.  Maybe that's an oversimplification, but as Nietzsche said (and I'm paraphrasing), conversation is the thing that lasts longest in a relationship!

LJ

[flourdust]

That makes sense to me. My feeling right now is that I would like companionship, but I'm also responsible for parenting and other things, and I don't want a relationship with someone who demands to be #1. And I'd expect and respect that from a partner in the same stage of life as I am.

I just don't know how attractive that is in the dating world ... ."Looking to date a woman who is willing to be semi-important to me!"

[Lucky Jim]

To the contrary, flourdust, I think it's definitely possible.  My current SO has her own parental responsibilities, as do I, so we give each other a lot of leeway in that regard.  Our r/s wouldn't have lasted this long (almost two years) if each of us insisted on being #1 all the time.  We make each other a priority, though not necessarily 100% of the time, which works out well for both of us.  My SO appreciates that we each have family responsibilities, which we work around.  LJ

[once removed]

thanks for joining in everyone. theres some good tips and food for thought in this discussion like:

I'd just be looking for some of the basics that are important to me: kindness, respect, maybe sense of humor, intelligence.

I tend to go down the humour route.

let go of the outcome and just let things develop.  

dates should be fun, not a chore. I try to let the evening take it's own course.

... .

I also look out for how much interest they have in me, my life, my interests etc... .

i might have thrown off the prompting here when i talked about lists of questions. i was really speaking to what our approaches are when it comes to getting to know someone (deliberately vague).

im not big on lists of questions either, because i agree it comes off as more of an interview. i think if i felt interrogated, id sense the person had been burned and was overcompensating.

there are, however, a lot of specific things id want to learn in a first date.

an important personal one for me has to do with faith. my faith informs a lot of my values. it informs how i will raise my children. my partner and i dont have to be 100% on every bit of religious dogma. we very much need to be on the same page when it comes to how we treat each other, what we expect of each other, limits, how we will raise our children, etc. my ex was somewhere between an agnostic and an atheist. it was always going to be a major obstacle.

so, i want to get a good sense of this pretty early, though i dont want to have a religious debate.

another good one i think is important to learn early on is whether either party wants to have children. ive read examples of couples that proceeded in spite of major differences on this and then it wrecked their relationship.

heres another one thats kind of blurry:

how do you feel about talking about past relationships?

[Fie]

Great thread !

I am also 'out there' dating but nothing very much up till now. I don't know, maybe my standards are too high, but then again, I know so much what I *don't* want now, that I'd rather be single then in an unhappy relationship.

I do notice I spot unhealthy behavior very early on now, and maybe I also sometimes see things that are not there. Some days ago I was talking to someone online, and somehow I got the feeling of being manipulated. So I ended up not even wanting to meet him. I talked about it with a friend; she said it didn't really sound like manipulation to her.

But then again, that gut feeling, you know... .I have never really learned how to develop my intuition about things like that, so I am kind of new to all of this.

Dating ... .hard work I'd say  :-)
Some months ago I met someone I felt a great connection with. It had literally been ages since I felt like that. Unfortunately he was in the process of moving... .I felt sad when he left. But most of all happy, because I didn't even know I could have those feelings anymore.

He had the same kind of humour as me. I think I can be pretty funny, but unfortunately sometimes people don't seem to agree with me there - heheh  :-P  It's no fun laughing with your own stupid jokes :-)
  And something I never had with someone before : silences. Sometimes minutes passed without us talking. And it felt actually good, and calm.

Talking about exes ... .If it pops up in a logical way, as part of a story, I don't really mind. Or upon talking about the kids and their mum, there it doesn't bother me.  But sometimes I wonder : why are you telling me stories about your exes, you are not telling me stories about your boss, your neighbor, ... either ?

[flourdust]

To the contrary, flourdust, I think it's definitely possible.

I've never been happier to be told I'm wrong. 

[Lucky Jim]

 , flourdust!  LJ

[confusedbloke]

Once, I can actually say that you have saved me over the last 2 years. I have actually been floored by my ex. I have never been floored before. And it was all because of my guilt toward my ex wife and meeting a woman with BPD. You couldn't script it really!

I am generally a good dater. I am very confident around women. I find it easy and that's because I grew up with women only. My aunties specifically. We used to pass joints around the table and talk about life. My confidence with women has been my downfall. I always thought I was too good for them. And they saw wise and left me. It was only exBPDgf I never felt better then, because she was out of my normal comfort zone and i wanted to try harder. I really wanted to make amends you know for my marriage. I was a very distant uncaring husband... .great with the Kids, but loveless toward her. I just wanted to say sorry I guess and I punished myself.  But now I've had an incite to the other side and its opened my eyes to feel what it feels like to love someone so much and not have it given back (whatever the reason). That's how my ex wife felt and I've learned that thanks to this ex relationshio. I hopefully feel I've got my balance now... .And i think i have!

Anyway, my point is that you saved me and I wanna save you too. Women are easy to talk to. Omg so easy. And I don't mean that disrespectfully. They are not some alien species. Think of them as just a person. Don't put em on a pedestal. Who can live up to that? Just see women as equals, as just a bloke... ! You'll feel so much more relaxed. Coz they'll be nervous too. Don't be that kid at school. I was! Be a man and get it sorted! You're mint Once, I absolutely wish you the best... .just be you but dont be too serious. Be relaxed, don't be deep. Have a bit of mystery about you... .give a hint of something that she may want to probe into... .command the conversation... .be a man!  It's that simple... .be a loving gentleman, but pick ya woman right!

[confusedbloke]

And don't talk about your ex... .!

[once removed]

I am generally a good dater. I am very confident around women.

confidence is attractive. i think its something we want to apply broadly: i believe a key to healthy dating is not to be governed by fear and hypervigilance (searching for red flags), but governed by confidence. confidence in yourself, confidence in what you want in a partner, confidence that you deserve it, confidence to walk away when need be.

My confidence with women has been my downfall. I always thought I was too good for them.

but confidence in ourselves doesnt have a lot to do with getting to know another person or as a strategy for healthy dating.

what are you considering/trying in that regard?

Talking about exes ... .If it pops up in a logical way, as part of a story, I don't really mind. Or upon talking about the kids and their mum, there it doesn't bother me.  But sometimes I wonder : why are you telling me stories about your exes, you are not telling me stories about your boss, your neighbor, ... either ?

its obviously not black and white, but i personally err on the side of "dont talk about exes". past relationships are history, and if they arent resolved, theyre baggage. if someone talks to me about their relationship history, then what i especially care about and want to hear is what they learned and took from it that made them a better partner.

i have no desire to bond over common wounds. it can make for instant chemistry and deep talks, no doubt, but the energy tends to dry up when you move past that.

[Hisaccount]

Interesting topic and responses.

For me, there is a reason you got to the first date. It isn't just looks or something you read in a profile. There is something about that person, the conversation you had.
I try to focus and start with that.
e.g. You have horses?
You like quilting?
You are an Olympic gymnast? 
So you're building a rocket in your basement?
(add some humor to it)

I try to find that topic that just makes them light up. Something they enjoy talking about. That helps you both relax, plus they are doing all the work. LOL

Of course there is things you want to know as well. So plenty of conversation starters.

I ran into both sides where the person does not want to talk, so I look for that topic that lights them up.
Or they have no problem talking and I can just relax in interject.

So I have a back up plan, but otherwise I kind of just let it roll.

Dating after my exBPD was tough. We spend so much time Isoalted from that part of our mind, we work on everything else, we work on us and with friends and family, but there is no way to stop and get ready for dating again but to actually go do it.

I went through so many bad first dates that I gave up. Some of it at first was me, but the rest was just not meshing with the other person.
But every first date got easier, built more confidence and self esteem in dating. I guess I kind of viewed all those failed dates as part of the healing process.

As a rule of thumb if your ex is much or any part of the conversation, well then you are not ready to date. Unless of course you are comparing to see who's was crazier. LOL

[once removed]

great pointers Hisaccount, and that actually brings me to my next (deliberately vague) question

For me, there is a reason you got to the first date.

what leads us to a second date? how do we approach a second date differently than the first?

[Hisaccount]

The second date?

Is there a thread for dating horror stories?

Well, the woman that was BPD she did not get a second date.

The woman that was in the witness protection program but currently suing her lawyer for molesting her, she didn't get a second date.

The night I got followed home and confronted by a private detective, she didn't get a second date.

The woman that failed to mention that she had 5 kids under the age of 6, she didn't get a second date.

The woman that broke down crying about her ex, she didn't get a second date.


I have more.

For me, the second date is something you feel after the first one. That still, small voice.
If you are motivated for date number two, then yeah she made it, go for it.
If you are not motivated for date number two, then probably not a good idea.

[Fie]

@Hisaccount :

Did all of those mentioned first dates actually happen ? It's not  a joke ?

Here am I thinking that tinder is full of weird men :-)

[Hisaccount]

@Hisaccount :

Did all of those mentioned first dates actually happen ? It's not  a joke ?

Here am I thinking that tinder is full of weird men :-)

Yes everyone of them and more. Those are the short versions.

There was one gal that was doing sexual things to herself in the restaurant.

One gal that  "never" drinks and "never" goes out but everyone knew her name. We couldn't eat because guys kept coming up and saying hi so often.

One gal was so big I had to help her out of her car. Yeah you couldn't see that in the pictures.

Then the heroin junkie. That was a nice one. She spent 30 minutes in the bathroom, came back to the table and fell asleep.

Like I said, I gave up. There was not one good date from any dating site.  

[spacecadet]

Oh my word, hope you don't mind but I'm laughing out loud reading these dating "horror stories."    They're mostly sad, but have the comic tenor of a good farce. (my favorite genre  )

I've done a lot of internet dating. Mostly I've met nice, overall attractive men where compatibility and/or mutual chemistry was not present, or the timing was off (e.g. they were not over an ex). Those are the most common stories. I've also listened to various friends' accounts (many with happy outcomes, yay!). Several friends age 50-75 have met really decent, sincere people who want companionship. I figure that's the toughest group age-wise. So it's an okay place in general.

However what I read, and my impression, is that it does draw a disproportionate share of people who are "posing" in some way... .pretending to want a r/s when they're actually players; sociopaths, NPDs etc. It's a certainly a mixed bag so while we can meet nice men and women, we need to have our "street smarts" on at all times.

My freakiest story was in Southern California years ago. I met a man at a restaurant. The conversation flowed, but when he smiled and laughed, his face became this mask of fury. Like, murderous hatred. He scared my socks off. When we parted I actually walked a circuitous path from the restaurant to my car so he could not even see my vehicle or license number... .that's how much he frightened me.

Within 5 years he turned up on a Dateline episode. No fooling, he'd murdered a beautiful young woman who had not had time to develop her street smarts. Tragic.

I've decided I do NOT want to ever ever be on a Dateline episode.  

It seems meeting people in person, at professional mixers or through hobbies, is best as far as being able to assess how they'd be in r/s's. Partly because we have mutual friends and acquaintances and can check in, what's their REAL r/s history, and what's their character about? And where chemistry matters, like to most of us, we can get that instant click... .or notice its absence.

[Sunfl0wer]

Pardon the chiming in rather late... .

Glad to see this thread!
I am beginning to think I may soon be ready to date as well and it has been a while that I have met up with someone new.

I am mostly with Lucky Jim's approach here in regards to having fun, and letting things unfold naturally.

I think I rather be intentional about not focusing on "is this person good for me?" But rather focus more on "how do we work together in experiences both good, bad, and neutral in life?"  I feel that often in trying to prescreen guys, I have noticed many men are fine and suitable when I examine them as individuals, yet this "less dynamic" view and approach, leads me astray from noticing if we are working well together or not.  Or can actually lead me into labeling him as good and thus trying to "fit" with him.  (Also, it is easier for me to have limited insight when removing Me from that observation) So rather than simply looking at if this person is ok or not, I want to be intentional to be observing "Us" vs "him," so my view remains more dynamic.  Not sure if I stated that well.

Sometimes asking questions and getting answers to them can be unintentionally misleading.  For sure my ex had all the "right" answers to it all! He was a pro at mirroring in a very un-obvious way.  Yet, had I paid more attention to behavior... .it could have been more telling.  Imo, I am not terribly interested in too many questions unless they are obvious deal breaker ones. (Yet playfully probing a bit with curiosity can be a fun activity too) I sometimes find it more useful to learn and listen as stuff comes up naturally.   Do we negotiate differences well? Do we have differences? (My ex and I had so few that I could have seen he was hiding parts of himself). Idk... .for me... .seems I have noticed that I really love when I can see that I can work through conflicts with someone well.  (Vs one person "giving in" or being avoidant... .to me, so far... .the ability for managing conflicts together, set limits with one another, is telling to me)
... .
Oh my! I just paused and read the horror stories!
Dateline?
Omg!
Maybe I'm NOT almost ready!
Horrific!

[chillamom]

  Sunfl0wer!  I was also thinking that maybe it's time to dip my toes into the water again, but the whole Dateline scenario was something that I could pretty clearly envision happening to me!  Maybe I too am not quite prepared to be out there again….strangely enough, despite the struggles of my relationship with the ex, I still maintain a somewhat optimistic attitude about the way things might go.  I'm actually afraid to see what might happen, because I don't want my hopes to be dashed too quickly!

[Sunfl0wer]

Chillamom... .
But like... .
Dateline!
Lmao!

I WAS readyish... .
Now am sufficiently freaked the shiz out!
   

[spacecadet]

By far the majority of people from internet are reasonably normal (for who among us is truly normal ha ha) but for those of us who want values in common, compatibility and some degree of chemistry, there's a lot of culling involved.

My point is, first always have your antenna out, just like you do anywhere, and of course meet in public the first time or the first few times.

Second, I think generally speaking, it's easier to meet people in the natural course of a day to find someone compatible for a r/s. For all kinds of reasons... .you automatically have things in common, be it your career/field, or a hobby or passion you share. You talk about sticky or awkward topics like ex's as they arise organically.

I know it's a bit tougher for those who are introverted to get out and mix, but it's much easier to talk when you're doing something with your hands or in a class learning or what have you, than it is face-to-face over coffee. Sounds cliche but true.

So not saying don't internet date, but recognize a lot more work goes into it than it might seem.

[Lost-love-mind]

Great topic.
Went on my first coffee meeting (not a date to me) after 3 mos. from my exBPD breakup devastated me.
Absolutely no connection.
Based on --nnn comments about TMI, I found myself sharing too much about my past (e.g. bailing my son out of jail).
That's craps that a BPD might do and I have had BPD traits (e.g cyber stalking my exBPD).
Anyway, she Texted me that she felt no connection. I agreed. I need someone with an "edge" , not a BPD, but an acknowledgement that life can be an adventure (not chaos).
Next week I have another coffee meeting with a woman met online.
This one has never been married and has no children. My exBPD was married twice but had no children.
Talking with other women I have met that have children, carry a higher level of maturity. Of course, the exBPD was the only woman I could compare them to in my unscientific survey.
Do woman without children have less to be concerned about , thus , less maturity? Maybe more BPD traits?