How do I resolve my husband obsessively wanting to debate my religious beliefs?

[Tattered Heart]

My H baited me last night. He has been so agitated all week and it's been almost a month since he turned it on me. I have been a validating ninja.

But I cannot figure out how best to deal with the issue of him obsessively wanting to talk about religion. And it's the one topic that he will bait me no matter how much I resist. I have tried everything on this topic to try to end it from escalating. We usually start having a pretty good conversation about things and then he starts to attack me, calling me a hypocrite, demanding answers that I don't have or refusing to accept the answers that I give, demanding that I answer for the behavior of every single person in my faith.

I have:
1. Validated his confusion and hurt and questions that he has.
2. Calmly told him this is not a subject I can't talk about because it just leads to fights
3. Agreed to disagree
4. Ignored him

None of these things works. He turns every single conversation to this topic.

I know why this subject is such an obsession to him.

First, his parents used religion while abusing him as a kid. His dad obsessively talks about the exact same issues as him too. It causes him shame because he doesn't feel like he will ever live up to being acceptable to God and he cannot accept that he doesn't have to "live up" to God.

Secondly, my faith is the most important thing in my life. He sees it as a threat to him. It find comfort in it. I have community with people at church. It is deeply personal and he can't control that or make me give it up.

Thirdly, it's the only topic that he can get a rise out of me. We used to have a number of topics that I enjoyed talking about. But we had the same issue where he would use those things I was passionate about to attack me. I stopped sharing my thoughts on those topics so he thought they were no longer important to me so it became boring. I cannot do that with my faith. It is who I am. I can't make it boring because that would be suppressing myself.

Fourthly, it's the one area that I cannot perfect myself completely. And he knows it. No one can ever be perfect until after death. The Bible says that and he cannot accept that in his black and white thinking. My failure and his failure to meet that standard means that it is all bad.

I could really use some help figuring out how to handle this. How do I stop the conversation altogether or stop it from getting heated? It doesn't get heated enough to trigger my leaving the house threshold.

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[Tattered Heart]

I think I'm ignoring my boundary.

My value is that "I will not discuss my faith with someone who is not really open to discussion (or biblically ":)on't cast your pearls before swine." This is a new value that I realized was important to me after having the same issue with a cousin.

I saw that the conversation with him had been going no where for months, he was refusing to even try to listen, and was just going to do whatever he wanted to do. Every time I thoroughly answered one question he just came up with a new one. I could see I was wasting my time and energy trying to change his mind. I unfollowed the cousin on fb because I knew that I would be tempted to engage again if I saw his posts.

It's a lot easier to do that on fb than it is when you live with someone 24/7.

[I_Am_The_Fire]

That is a very rough situation. It must be frustrating for you.

Personally, I'm not sure he will ever stop if he doesn't want to. I don't know if you can get him to either. My uexBPDh would intentionally bait me for whatever reason many times. Nothing I said to him made a difference. I respectfully asked/told him I would like to discuss it later or that I didn't want to discuss it. He refused to respect those boundaries and would continue until he worked himself up. I struggled with enforcing my boundaries which didn't help. When I tried to leave the room, he'd follow me escalating until I responded in some way. If I exploded at him in an attempt to get him to stop, he would say I'm unstable. Nothing I did or said seemed to matter. He still tries even though we've been divorced awhile now. Lately I've learned to use gray rock and BIFF in communicating with him in text/email. It's easier not being around him though.

In all that, I eventually learned that he was probably looking to me to manage his emotions for him OR he wanted me to be the "unstable bad guy" so he wasn't. He definitely has a black and white / all or nothing mentality.

It sounds to me that your H probably has wounded inner child issues and is looking to you to "fix" them for him or for you to make him feel better because he's unable to. Only he can do that, though. If he refuses to look into his own issues, I'm not sure what else you can do except control how you respond/react to him. You may need to pick one response/reaction and consistently stick to it. He may eventually learn that there is no point in baiting you anymore. The book "Homecoming" by John Bradshaw really opened my eyes to wounded inner child issues.

[Tattered Heart]

I think you're absolutely right. He wants me to provide the answer that will make everything make sense.

I was using gray rock on this subject about a week ago but he still kept talking about it for 2 hours straight without any response from me. One night he just kept talking to me for well over an hour while I pretended to be asleep. He really doesn't seem to care if I'm listening or not. That's how I know it's his issue. I just can't figure out what to do for me when he does this.

[I_Am_The_Fire]

That is a tough one... when he talks for two hours and even when you're trying to sleep. My uexBPDh did that too. He would even start questioning/ranting at me as soon as I woke up. I didn't get a lot of sleep. My anxiety was through the roof. It's really frustrating. Is there anyway you can put in ear plugs at night or something along those lines? Learn to tune him out? Practice breathing exercises that will help you to sleep? I'm sorry I feel like I'm grasping at straws here.

I ended up moving to a different bedroom which triggered him in a big way. It seemed to make things worse.  I felt I was damned if I do and damned if I didn't. I ended up divorcing him because it only got worse even with marriage counseling.

[trailsinger]

You say it's the only topic he can get a rise out of you on. Maybe that's just what he's looking for?

I've been thinking about what happens when people get into a heightened feeling state. It's uncomfortable and we feel impelled to DO something. But if a person is not good at spotting and naming feelings, how can they know what action to take? What I've been noticing with my BPD sister is that when she's in such a state, she needs to SHARE it. My mom was the same way. They couldn't say "I'm so angry about blah blah," instead they'd either get stuck telling the story over and over and over or they'd attack someone else. (Or both.) I think both are attempts to get the other person to take away the feeling somehow. Doesn't work; but they're not conscious enough to realize what they are doing in the first place, much less stop doing it and find a better way, so they keep at it.

Which doesn't give you much help, I realize. The only other thought I have came from a doctor friend of mine who has learned that when patients get angry and yell at her, she needs to raise her voice back at them. Not in anger, just to match their intensity so they feel engaged with and heard. And they seem to, even if she still keeps telling them something they don't want to hear.

[Cole]

TH,

Sorry to hear he has an "obsessive subject of annoyance" as I call the ones my wife has.

Have you considered playing dumb?

"I don't really know, honey. That is a good question. Maybe you should ask Pastor Bob or look it up on the web."

If he is like the typical pwBPD he will drop it right there because it would require work on his part instead of expecting instant gratification from you.

[Tattered Heart]

TH,

Sorry to hear he has an "obsessive subject of annoyance" as I call the ones my wife has.

Have you considered playing dumb?

"I don't really know, honey. That is a good question. Maybe you should ask Pastor Bob or look it up on the web."

If he is like the typical pwBPD he will drop it right there because it would require work on his part instead of expecting instant gratification from you.

I think I'm going to start using that! He has several of these obsessive subjects: religion, politics, work, society sucks, conspiracy theories, philosophy

One phrase I've become an expert at saying is "Maybe. It could be" or "You might be right". Both of those usually work pretty well. Not always though. If I say it too often he accuses me of not wanting to engage with him (which I don't) or being a robot.

In the times that I've suggested he do his own research that has caused him to blow up because "If you're a Christian you should have these answers." or "I don't need to. I know the bible better than you."

For him, talking about "deep" subjects is his way to connect with me. He HATES it when I want to talk about trivial, superficial stuff. I would love to have a conversation about music, movies, celebrities, fashion, fb memes etc. but those make him mad. I think this is a manifestation of narcissism. He knows that he can talk over people's heads about deep subjects and it makes him look better than others (in his mind) even though it has actually ruined several relationships with friends (but that's because they are "small minded and can't handle the truth"

[Cole]

He has several of these obsessive subjects: religion, politics, work, society sucks, conspiracy theories, philosophy

For him, talking about "deep" subjects is his way to connect with me. He HATES it when I want to talk about trivial, superficial stuff.

Would you consider your H to be above average in intelligence? Just curious, as he reminds me of a couple co-workers who would today be considered Asperger/autistic spectrum, and my S14 who acts like that and is dx Asperger.

I certainly am not qualified to say he is or isn't, but curious, as my son's psychiatrist told me there are definite overlaps between BPD and high functioning autistic spectrum (Aspergers, PDD/NOS dx's). 

[Tattered Heart]

Would you consider your H to be above average in intelligence? Just curious, as he reminds me of a couple co-workers who would today be considered Asperger/autistic spectrum, and my S14 who acts like that and is dx Asperger.

I certainly am not qualified to say he is or isn't, but curious, as my son's psychiatrist told me there are definite overlaps between BPD and high functioning autistic spectrum (Aspergers, PDD/NOS dx's).

Yes. He is extremely intelligent. My IQ is 138, but I bet his is close to 150+. He has this crazy ability to remember facts. Social situations stress him out to no end. He takes things extremely literally (also a BPD trait) and even when watching TV he has difficulty understanding the subtleties in tones of voice and facial expressions (could also be BPD)

Before discovering BPD I actually thought Asperger's was his primary Dx. He has taken some online Asperger's tests and scored pretty high on the spectrum. I forget that I had considered Asperger's at one point. It's sometimes difficult to determine what is BPD and what could be Asperger's because as you said they both have many similar overlaps. We recently watched "Atypical" on Netflix and he strongly related to the main character.

Thanks! I'm going to look into what to do when someone with Asperger's gets stuck on a subject. That might help.

[Cole]

Thanks! I'm going to look into what to do when someone with Asperger's gets stuck on a subject. That might help.

I have a dBPDw and an Asperger son. If you find a solution I will pay you for it.  

The difference in my observation is BPD obsessions are usually emotion based (your entire family hates me) vs autism obsessions which tend to be more fact based (the red oaks grow faster than the pin oaks and they should be identical because they are both oaks and I need to know the ratio).

[Tattered Heart]

That's a good assessment to make note of.

I've been home from work for 45 min and he has Already started going off aviutvan article he read on Christian Leaders fb page. I just want to scream ":)ON'T READ IT THEN!"

I'll be leaving my keys in the car just in case tonight because I don't have the mental stamina right now to maneuver for long. I'm worn down after a week of this. Deep breaths. I've been through this many times before. I can do it. I have the tools, right?

[Cole]

That's a good assessment to make note of.

I've been home from work for 45 min and he has Already started going off aviutvan article he read on Christian Leaders fb page. I just want to scream ":)ON'T READ IT THEN!"

I'll be leaving my keys in the car just in case tonight because I don't have the mental stamina right now to maneuver for long. I'm worn down after a week of this. Deep breaths. I've been through this many times before. I can do it. I have the tools, right?

You got the tools, you can handle it or leave if necessary! I hope things calm down for you. Prayers going out to you.

[waverider]

Seems there is a form of insecurity projection going on. He may be insecure in his own beliefs and so is casting doubts on yours by way of deflecting from his real issue. Unfortunately when they touch on subjects that are precious to you it is all too easy to fall into JADE about your world. Rather than deflecting it back to his world. This is then the avenue opening for his dysfunction coping.

Shutting down doesn't work as he sees that as avoidance and invalidating. Have you tried actively discussing his belief's rather than yours?

Something is causing him discomfort, and I am willing to bet it is not what your belief's are, and more likely about his lack of conviction in his on belief's, and whether he thinks people take his reality seriously

[Tattered Heart]

I have tried to address his own beliefs and he deflects it and gets angry that I question him. He then claims that he knows he is "bad" and that's better than the Christians who think they aren't bad. He says he knows the Bible better than anyone.

So he has bright it up 4 times today. I hate to use gray rock but that seems to be what allows him to talk about it and me not to get upset. When he starts in I just use a lot of "maybe", "you might be right", "I don't know. What do you think?" (This works well), "hmmm", "I see what your saying". My affect remains flat and boring, but I still respond.

Then as soon as he even remotely touches on another subject I come back to life, talking with inflection, telling stories, facial expressions, etc.

I just need to give myself some space to clear my mind enough to figure out something different.

[trailsinger]

He knows that he can talk over people's heads about deep subjects and it makes him look better than others (in his mind) even though it has actually ruined several relationships with friends (but that's because they are "small minded and can't handle the truth"

Oh wow, this sounds just like the husband of a good friend of mine. He's very intelligent but my friend suspects that his father put him down a lot and made him very insecure about it. He even went to law school just to prove he's smart, but never practiced law. He likes to challenge me because I have a doctorate, but if I point out the flaws I see in his reasoning he starts talking over me and gets more and more vehement until I give up. Apparently he does this to a lot of people and it's ruined some friendships, which is upsetting to my friend, but when she points out his behavior to him he denies it. He used to go to counseling but now he's stuck on proving to everyone that psychology is B.S. We suspect that the counselor called him on something that made him very uncomfortable.

[Tattered Heart]

Oh wow, this sounds just like the husband of a good friend of mine. He's very intelligent but my friend suspects that his father put him down a lot and made him very insecure about it. He even went to law school just to prove he's smart, but never practiced law. He likes to challenge me because I have a doctorate, but if I point out the flaws I see in his reasoning he starts talking over me and gets more and more vehement until I give up. Apparently he does this to a lot of people and it's ruined some friendships, which is upsetting to my friend, but when she points out his behavior to him he denies it. He used to go to counseling but now he's stuck on proving to everyone that psychology is B.S. We suspect that the counselor called him on something that made him very uncomfortable.

Possibly NPD... .maybe.

So update... .I made myself boring which meant that H had to actually respond to himself. By the end of the weekend, he determined that he often uses these highly intellectual/deep conversations to mask his own hurt inside. He deflects his own emotions onto these subjects.

[Cole]

By the end of the weekend, he determined that he often uses these highly intellectual/deep conversations to mask his own hurt inside. He deflects his own emotions onto these subjects.

Sounds like he at least acknowledges that this is an issue and what causes it, so that is a start.

I find when my son gets onto a subject (such as to why the school rules are wrong or why God should have made red oaks and pin oaks more alike) there is no stopping him from wanting an answer or expecting the facts to change to what he believes they should be.

In his case, I just dump a bunch of Legos or other building materials in front of him over which he has absolute control. It is an outlet for that need to control something.

Not suggesting you give your husband Legos. But maybe there is a creative outlet for him, such as writing or another activity over which he has control that he can use when he gets into an intellectual conundrum. 

[Skip]

Will solving the problem, solve the problem?

Maybe a third party can help and you both can get on the same side - like taking a night course on theology, or find a bible study, or a meetup group - places where he can express himself.

I'm not sure he would go, but even presenting him with tangible options shifts the epicenter of this debate off of you.

I deal with this from time to time and in fact have friends where we make the topic off limits because it can be a non-productive debate if the parties are not open to listen.

[Tattered Heart]

Will solving the problem, solve the problem?

Maybe a third party can help and you both can get on the same side - like taking a night course on theology, or find a bible study, or a meetup group - places where he can express himself.

I'm not sure he would go, but even presenting him with tangible options shifts the epicenter of this debate off of you.

I deal with this from time to time and in fact have friends where we make the topic off limits because it can be a non-productive debate if the parties are not open to listen.

He has talked several times in the past about joining a group like this, but he will not take the steps necessary to set it up. His preference is that it be a men's group with the sole reason being so he can have time with other guys AND that I am not the focus of his questions. (It's nice that he has the insight into how it's affecting me after the fact). He was talking about this idea just yesterday and this morning, but we will see if he follows through.

[Skip]

Does he know of a group?

[Lakebreeze]

Religion is a hot button issue in my relationship with my uBPDh as well. I could have written the lines myself where you described how much you faith means to you. I did talk to a therapist who was really helpful in changing the way I approved the conflict. It's hard because I was looking at it as if I was defending or explaining my faith to someone who wanted to hear it. So, tips from my therapist that helped me: 1) realize that there is a great deal of Projection going on. He is having spiritual turmoil so in his mind you do instead. 2) there is Nothing you can say that will make him listen or understand your point of view. You could be St Augustine. Give up the line of thought that goes if I just find the right thing to say... .(this is Perfectionism, so common in us care takers and co dependents. 3) if your are Christian, follow Jesus' example... .he was constantly being bated. Constantly. They called him Beelzebub. So we can expect to be called hypocrites, lying, worthless, ignorant,blind sheep. It doesn't mean it's true. They called Him worse.
I hope this helps even a tiny bit. And I'm sorry for the heart ache this causes. I know it first hand!

[Skip]

3) if your are Christian, follow Jesus' example... .he was constantly being bated. Constantly. They called him Beelzebub. So we can expect to be called hypocrites, lying, worthless, ignorant,blind sheep. It doesn't mean it's true. They called Him worse.

Good point!

[Tattered Heart]

Does he know of a group?

Yes and no.He has looked on craigslist in the past. I offered to get him in touch with someone at my church that can direct him to the right place and he refused that.  And he has friends from our old church  that would be more than willing to sit down with him, but he refuses that because he feels shame about us leaving that church.

[Tattered Heart]

It's hard because I was looking at it as if I was defending or explaining my faith to someone who wanted to hear it. So, tips from my therapist that helped me: 1) realize that there is a great deal of Projection going on. He is having spiritual turmoil so in his mind you do instead. 2) there is Nothing you can say that will make him listen or understand your point of view. You could be St Augustine. Give up the line of thought that goes if I just find the right thing to say... .(this is Perfectionism, so common in us care takers and co dependents. 3) if your are Christian, follow Jesus' example... .he was constantly being bated. Constantly. They called him Beelzebub. So we can expect to be called hypocrites, lying, worthless, ignorant,blind sheep. It doesn't mean it's true. They called Him worse.
I hope this helps even a tiny bit. And I'm sorry for the heart ache this causes. I know it first hand!

Yes. I do have to remind myself of this quite often. I know that there is absolutey nothing I can say to help him figure out whatever he is fighting. He is fighting himself and his own faith. I remind myself all the time that persecution will come and in some countries people are beheaded just for being a Christian.

I know I can't make the conversation stop. He is going to obsess over it regardless of what I say or do. I'm trying to find the right balance between supporting him and protecting myself. I know that he needs someone to bounce things off of and since he is currently so isolated I am the only person available to him. At the same time it's causing me quite a bit of stress so I also know that I have to limit myself in this conversation.