Her latest tantrum

[Dragon72]

Our son's coming up to his 4th birthday. We are living paycheck to paycheck at the moment and with a recent increase in our car repayments and son's kindergarten fees we're struggling to even break even.

Nevertheless, my (uBPD) wife wants a $1,000+ party for him in a rented playcenter. I said no.

And I am very proud of myself for putting my foot down and saying no. He can have a nice party with aunts, uncles and cousins here at home instead.

She said she would borrow money from her family to do the big party. I said no. We wouldn't be able to pay it back. She argued that we could pay her family back in December out of my end-of-year bonus. I said no, we would need that money for other things.  Like her health insurance and if possible savings.

She then went on to try to manipulate me emotionally by making me feel bad for depriving our poor son of this experience.  Still I said no, we just don't have the money for it.

She said I wasn't listening to her. I empathised, I said I share her concern and said it would be lovely to be able to give our son the very best, but the reality is that we just don't have thousands to spend on that sort of thing and that's really sad.

She then went on to demand explanations for where all my salary has been going, even though whenever I have tried to show her my spreadsheet that details my spending down to the last cent, she says and continues to say that "Anybody can manipulate a spreadsheet". 

She then accused me of siphoning off money to send to my family who are overseas.  I said that I wouldn't engage in the discussion if she continued to make outrageous accusations and I left the room.  24 hours of silent treatment later (including not responding to things like "Good morning" or "would you like a glass of water?" she packed a bag and announced that she and our son were leaving to go stay at another house we have in a neighboring city "for a few days".

I'm grateful for the space and tranquillity at home.  I feel temporarily liberated!  I am worried though that this argument about money, which has happened before, will just keep coming back and back and back.  There's a part of me that wants to go to her brother in law (so from her family) who is an accountant and say to him, "Audit me and go back to her and show her not only that I am honest, but that we can't afford all the stuff she wants to spend money on".  But that would be a waste of JADEing time and effort, right?

I'm sick of this nonsense.  I do everything I can to be the best possible husband and dad and all I get is distrust, suspicion and pure hate.  This is no marriage.

[Juan Pablo]

I can relate to this so much. My BPDw would constantly want to argue about budget and spending. I keep a spreadsheet as well and know where every cent goes. She would accuse me of manipulating the numbers. Constantly accused of secretly sending money to ex wife.  I finally gave up trying to talk household finances with her because it just led to fights and crazy making.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Dragon72, I admire you for saying No and sticking to it.  It's hard to hold one's ground when a pwBPD starts manipulating through guilt trips or other arm-twisting strategies.  Yet you remained firm, which to me is a healthy sign.  Keep up the good work!  I'm sorry that you find yourself in such a stressful situation and understand your frustration.  I was married to a pwBPD for 16 years, so I get it.

LuckyJim

[Notwendy]

If there is any reason a 4 year old "needs" a lavish $1000+ birthday party, please enlighten me. If that's what parents want to do and they can afford it, then that is there choice but it isn't something a 4 year old needs. They are just as happy with cake and ice cream and a backyard or playroom at home.

But you know it isn't about him. It's about her feelings and all this discussion back and forth with reasons and logic doesn't help as feelings are not based on reasoning or logic. You can see how this is going in circles with her accusations and temptation to JADE.

The only answer to this is : we can not afford it.  

Good for you for sticking to your principles. Yes, it is hard. But if there are not boundaries now, it won't get easier. After this, he will "need" costly private school, fancy clothes, car, prestigious college. Fine if you have the money,but not a necessity. There are happy and educated people who had cake and ice cream birthdays at home, and who went to public schools and colleges.

[Dragon72]

I think she is reacting so strongly on this issue for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, although she rarely talks about her childhood, I suspect that she herself was not given much affection, love and attention.  She's Mexican and grew up with 7 siblings (4 older, 3 younger), so it must have been hard to fight for the attention of a mother who I gather was pretty authoritarian.  She still addresses her parents using "Usted", which is a very formal, respectful and (I think) a little distant way of addressing someone in Spanish.

Secondly, our son goes to a private school, albeit one in which I am a teacher and so we get a huge reduction in the fees. It is in the top 10 schools in the country, and so the parents of our son's classmates are the ultra wealthy and of very high status (inlcuding CEOs and TV stars).  I think my wife is feeling inferior when all her new "friends" are splashing the cash around.

Either way, it's all very well trying to understand the root of the problem, but I don't know how to handle its consequences which are her strong reactions. Still, I'm glad I didn't let her talk me into yet another big expense like she did last year with a new car (status symbol), which has put us in a tight financial position for the next 3 years.

[formflier]

The audit is a good idea... .but by a brother in law is horrible.

Leave family out of it.

Reflect for a bit.  Is it about the audit... .or is it about getting family "on your side". 

If the audit matters... .get it.  If it is about getting people on your side, I would do some thinking about why that matters to you.

Solid work on standing ground on finances.  Focus on the numbers... they don't lie. 

FF

[formflier]

  but I don't know how to handle its consequences which are her strong reactions. 

The key is that you don't "handle them".  Let her do that... .

I realize this can be tough... .some things are fixable. 

Out of curiosity ... .can the car deal be undone without her signature? 

It's one thing to have a one time victory over a party (not downplaying that at all... .) but it is another thing to change financial "structure" over a multi-year period.

I'm discussing this with my 17 year old at the moment.  He has his eye on first car... .he works hard for his money... .I'm trying to train him to use spreadsheet to evaluate long term structure... .especially compared to his stated goals. 

Anyway... .hang in there... .and again... .solid work!

FF

[Dragon72]

FF, I think it matters to me that it's family because I know her family is very important to her and they are people she trusts and listens to, much more than she trusts or listens to me.
Therefore if she is presented with facts about me from a trusted source, rather than an independent one which I "may have bribed" (I live in Mexico - where everyone is corruptible - after all), she may believe it more.

But I'm forgetting.  For her, it's nothing about the facts. It's all about the feelings, which I can do nothing about.

[Notwendy]

The reactions are tough, but think about them. They are the result of not being able to handle emotions like disappointment. You've probably seen this in your four year old, but you know the right thing to do is not give in to his tantrums and let him learn how to manage his feelings. As hard as this is, your wife needs to learn this too. She doesn't know this yet, but giving in to her tantrums won't let her learn it- they will reinforce the behavior.

It is great that you understand where she is coming from, but you can't fix this by spending money that you don't have. It's also great that you can give your son an excellent education, but this will come with peer pressure. Your job is to help him understand that superficial things don't matter when compared to character. You are his role model for that as well as teaching him fiscal responsibilities. His mother may not be able to do that, so that is up to you.

[Dragon72]

I guess one of my biggest fears is what she might do to retaliate.  I know how good she is at gaslighting, she can very well influence others into thinking that I am doing bad things.

I worry about this partly because, as a person with codependent traits, I have been hardwired to worry about others' opinion of me.

But also, and importantly, I want out of this relationship and be free of her, but I fear that she may retaliate by damaging my reputation as a father and teacher - who are very vulnerable to accusations of impropriety whether they are true or entirely falsified.

[formflier]

FF, I think it matters to me that it's family because I know her family is very important to her and they are people she trusts and listens to, much more than she trusts or listens to me.
Therefore if she is presented with facts about me from a trusted source, rather than an independent one which I "may have bribed" (I live in Mexico - where everyone is corruptible - after all), she may believe it more.

But I'm forgetting.  For her, it's nothing about the facts. It's all about the feelings, which I can do nothing about.

I spent a lot of time in central america... .so... .I know all too well about "flexibility" of opinions... .and how much you "encourage" them.

I was government type (military).  I remember being in a certain country and was having a meeting about some big projects ... .some others remarked at how lucky we were to be in the "least corrupt" country in the area. 

It was true... .and very telling... .

So... .just understand it can be complicated involving family.  You have good reasons.

Perhaps directly ask her before talking to the brother in law.

FF

[Lucky Jim]

I guess one of my biggest fears is what she might do to retaliate.  I know how good she is at gaslighting, she can very well influence others into thinking that I am doing bad things.

Hey Dragon, I think that is a realistic fear for anyone involved with a pwBPD, sad to say.  It sort of runs with the territory because, if they feel wronged, they don't hesitate to disparage others due to their black and white thinking.  On the other hand, not everyone falls for their gas lighting and exaggerations.  The fear you describe is a factor to be weighed as you formulate your plan, but maybe not the most important factor, which I submit is your happiness.

LuckyJim

[babyducks]

Hi Dragon,

A while ago LivenLearned here helped me understand something about my pwBPD.   She said it so well I want to try and repeat it verbatim.

LivenLearned taught me that there was no way I could under estimate the depth of shame and self loathing some one with BPD feels.   pwBPD cannot self soothe like some one who learned to emotionally regulate so he/she seeks others ways to get her needs met.   These are not garden variety needs, they are core to her sense of self.   In order to get her needs met she has to keep a lot of balls in the air so that the shame does not surface and overwhelm her.   We all do this to some extent.   people with BPD do it to excess because of the intensity of their feelings and impulsivity of their actions.   the behaviors can feel very personal and often they are much more primitive in the sense that she is trying to survive the catastrophe of not feeling whole.

This made a lot of sense to me.   Especially the part about garden variety needs.   what I experienced was that the wants and needs of my partner were about defining my partners sense of self.   In my partners case it was, "if you give me a present and a card once a week I will experience the sense of being loved."   I am guessing in for you it's "if I hold a huge party for my son I am the best mother ever'.

There's a part of me that wants to go to her brother in law (so from her family) who is an accountant and say to him, "Audit me and go back to her and show her not only that I am honest, but that we can't afford all the stuff she wants to spend money on".  But that would be a waste of JADEing time and effort, right?

yes it would be JADEing.    You won't be able to prove or convince her of the financial facts because as you said:

 For her, it's nothing about the facts. It's all about the feelings, which I can do nothing about.

what I experienced as peace and quiet my partner often experienced as emptiness and void.   and she rushed to fill up the void.    Not having a stable sense of self, she created a sense of self by what she experienced.   by the events in her life.   and even by her possessions. 

I think that's why you often read stories here about the pwBPD who must have the bigger ring, the bigger house,  the fancier car, the next baby.   in the perceptions of a pwBPD all feelings come from external sources... and if they can control the external sources they can control their feelings.

I worry about this partly because, as a person with codependent traits, I have been hardwired to worry about others' opinion of me.

resist the urge to catastrophize.   yes bad things may happen but they are not happening right now.   if you act to 'pre-empt' them you are giving way to subtle but effective manipulation.    never a good idea.   if you don't act on something to avoid potential consequences that's also a subtle manipulation.

'ducks

[Notwendy]

This is a great understanding- about their needs not being ordinary needs but their belief that what they want is essential to their sense of self. Saying "no" takes away this feeling of theirs.

The unfortunate part is that, when we fulfill the need, it doesn't stick. If sending a card and present every week could have made your partner feel loved- if that was the solution, we'd all gladly do it.

My impression of this is that, this poor sense of self is internal, but it is projected on to something else- the want- in the moment, but since the object of the want isn't the source of this problem, it also isn't the solution. It may work on a temporary level, but then there seems to be another "want" after that, and another, and another.

If we need to protect family finances, we need to say no. Sadly in the moment, that no is translated by their thinking into an attack, a no to their person - not the object but a rejection. It may help to keep in mind though, that saying "yes" isn't the solution to their inner pain. It may be a temporary fix, but in the long run, doesn't solve it and neither does getting into financial trouble.



 

[Dragon72]

Another factor that may be influencing my wife's recent behaviour is that we have just experienced here in Mexico City a pretty traumatic event: the recent 9/19/17 earthquake. 

It shook us hard, damaged property and forced the school where I work to close for the forseeable future while they repair damaged structures, but thank goodness none of us, our family or close friends was hurt or left homeless like so many in this city have been, even in our neighborhood.  i have been helping with the disaster relief effort and have been amazed by the way this country has pulled together after such an awful thing.

My wife was a teenager in the 1985 quake that left tens of thousands dead here and so I think she must have been traumatized more than me as a foreigner with what we went through 10 days ago.

Maybe she's wanting to squeeze as much into our son's life as possible in the knowledge that lives can be devatated in seconds. That combined with a touch of post traumatic stress.  She hasn't said as much. Just a thought.

[Dragon72]

Well she came back earlier than expected after just over 24 hours away.

She's been pretty monosyllabic but has not been openly hostile, aggressive or ragey. She's still emitting a vibe that's more "I hate your guts" than "I love you" but that's been increasingly the case since "I do".

She spent a good deal of the afternoon looking at pictures of celebs and royals on the internet while I played with our son. Then I went our for an hour-long run. When I came back she was still looking at princesses on the computer, so I took our son to the kitchen an got him to help me make pita breads as a mini baking project and for his supper.

Meanwhile, she went up to our son's room, which she has turned into her little studio apartment complete with TV as a place to avoid me in when I'm around.

I had supper with our son with the food we made together. She declined the offer to join us. And in fact she seemed to get offended when she saw an empty plate at her place which was there in case she wanted to join us.

As ever she's gone to bed with our son at 7pm, leaving me on my own to spend the evening in my own company. Silver lining: the remote is mine! All mine!

Such is our marriage.  I have begged her in the past to spend more time just with me and to try to bond a bit more, but her reaction was just to turn it around and onto me by saying, " You made me like this".

I can't bear this depressing situation for much longer.

[Notwendy]

It can be entertaining to look at the lives of celebrities. If this is one way your wife distracts herself from her feelings, I don't think that's a bad thing. It's not harming anyone, and if the cost of a few magazines helps take her mind off things, that seems OK. Although the ST is hard to take, and you don't like her staying in your son's room instead of being with you- this may also be the way she deals with her bad feelings. It may not feel good to you to see her upset that your son isn't getting an expensive birthday party, but she feels what she feels. You don't have to fix her feelings for her. Maybe she needs this-some time distracting herself with celebrities and some time without you to calm down. This may be more about her than you. Let her self soothe.

[Dragon72]

Thanks notwendy, but this is a long term pattern of behaviour. 
I don't begrudge anybody wanting to look at celebrities. What I begrudge is her not wanting to interact with me, ever.
That s been the level of social intimacy between us since the birth of our son 4 years ago.
Sure, people should be able to sulk after an argument, I totally agree, but to act like she hates me, the person she married, for four years is not something I can put up with for much longer.

[formflier]

There are several issues going on here.

It's important to keep them separate while at the same time realizing there is a connection.

Big picture:  Your wife wants to dance the same dance.  You are dancing differently.  (dance being metaphor for the r/s).

I would pick a date that you started dancing differently as a time frame from which to "measure" success, failure... .or somewhere in between.

Once she realizes that her "dance" isn't working for her anymore... .she may try to change it.  Hopefully that will be towards a healthier r/s with you and your son.

What date are you going to pick as when you started doing boundaries? 

So... .how long has she been living in your sons room?  It sounds like 4 years.  Do I have this right?

FF

[Dragon72]

I'm not really sure I understand what you're suggesting, ff.
She started sleeping with our son from the day he was born and hasn't left his bedroom (except for brief stints) since.
October 2013 is the month when I lost my wife.

[formflier]

 
When did you start saying no to you wife about money?


Start using boundaries? 

Start using tools from bpdfamily?

I'm trying to get a sense of how long you have been changing "your part" of the relationship. 

FF

[Dragon72]

I have only really in the past few months been making an effort to care less about what she thinks and to put some importance onto my needs and opinions. 

Before, I just did everything I could to appease her and avert her anger.  I came to the realization that keeping her happy was a) impossible and b) meant that I was always giving up a part of my soul.

Denying her the party was, I guess, my biggest "no" to date.

As for applying the site's methods, I have been inconsistent in that since I started lurking here over 2 years ago now. 

I find it hard to validate her emotions when she's flying into a rage about something petty or even imagined or when I have been simply doing my best to do right by my family. 

I find it hard not to JADE when I feel its important that people know the truth.

I find it hard to know what boundaries are reasonable and stick to them when she's using emotional manipulation techniques that make me feel I'm being unreasonable.

[Notwendy]

Clearly, this pattern is greater than just one issue.  I think we have the tendency to look at these things in the context of one issue at a time, and explain it - by this issue- the earthquake, the expensive birthday party- which in a sense puts each issue into an explainable event. But each event is influenced by the underlying disorder in the partners- BPD. co-dependency, etc, and the events seem to be a cycle- want, appeasement, and then again.

Where this gets muddy is the resentments- no you can't afford to do the birthday party, but in addition, if you did do it, you would feel resentful. When you give in - appease, you hope for something to change- make this better, but it doesn't.

If you have changed your approach recently, it doesn't make things better in the short run. Both you and your wife have a certain set of relationship skills that you use repeatedly. She's learned that sulking or pitching a fit has learned to get her what she wants. When faced with not having what she wants- she is going to use the skills she has. Everyone would do this. But after trying several times, she may learn that it doesn't work- she needs to do something else, whatever that is.

You are also breaking patterns by saying "no". This isn't comfortable. Learning something new isn't comfortable. It's like someone handed you a violin for the first time and you are playing on stage. It's not going to be comfortable and you may not do it well. But with practice- you can learn new relationship skills and get better at them.

[formflier]

Just so you know... .validation is for "pre-dysregulation".  Once someone gets worked up... .validation is unlikely to "bring them down".

Best to use boundaries... .protect yourself and "not add fuel to the fire".  Let it burn itself out.


I hope you realize that by "appeasing" that you are actually training her to be "worse".  The other parts of what you said are true and valid as well, but... .IMO... .the biggest thing you are doing is "showing" her how to get what she wants.

Good job trying some new stuff. 

Do you think you can work on being more consistent?

FF

[Dragon72]

I think what I'm finally and painfully beginning to realize is that no matter what I do, she will never give me what i want from a relationship: reciprocal affection, intimacy, companionship, collaboration and mutual respect. 

No matter how much I do to try to make her happy or to avoid her getting angry, she'll never truly be happy and will only demand more.

And equally, no matter how much I stick to my principles and self-worth by applying boundaries to protect myself and my values, she will still not change and give me what I need from a relationship.

The appease option is lose-lose.  We're both unhappy.
The boundaries option is lose-lose but with small wins for my self-respect.  We're both unhappy, but I feel slightly better about myself.
Better the option with the small victories, I guess.

They say the cycle is idealization-devaluation-discard.  I am actually really looking forward to the discard.  But as she's a SAHM with no personal income, that will probably be a long time coming.

[formflier]

 
I disagree... .100% with what you just said.

Big breath... .

Listen... .she "may" never give you what you want/need.  I can guarantee you that appease is loose-loose


If you "demand" respect from boundaries... .she may give it... eventually, to get what she wants.

Don't underestimate the power of their quest to fill a hole that can't be filled (by someone on the outside)

Thoughts?  Can you reflect back what you just read... in your words.  It's a critical concept... .very big picture.
FF

[Lucky Jim]

No matter how much I do to try to make her happy or to avoid her getting angry, she'll never truly be happy and will only demand more.

Hey Dragon, It may be true that someone suffering from BPD is rarely happy or even content for long, yet I would suggest that it's not your job to take responsibility for a pwBPD's happiness or contentment.  In other words, it's not about how much you do or try to do for your pwBPD; rather, it's about taking responsibility for your own happiness and finding your own path through the BPD forest.  Does this make sense?

LuckyJim

[Dragon72]

So it was our son's birthday on Wednesday.  He was so excited to get his presents.  I love him so much I could burst.

I managed to win the battle over the $1,000 party and was rescued by the Deus Ex Machina of the news that her parents will be coming next weekend to spend the winter in their house a mile from here (they normally live in California (USA) but spend most winters here).  This means that a big family party will be thrown next weekend in honour of our son's b'day, my wife's sister's b'day and the in-laws return.

So I took wife and son to a kid-friendly restaurant on his birthday using up almost the last of my half of my wage packet until the 15th. Although I will get the chance to pick up literally a few $ more from private lessons over the next week or two but not much.  With these concerns on my mind and having spent quite a bit in the restaurant, we went to the supermarket to buy a birthday cake to take home for that evening.  Mrs. D took the opportunity to toss into the shopping basket an expensive face cream.  "Who's going to pay for that?" I asked.  "My dear husband" was her reply so that the check out girl could hear. 

I bought it but then went on to explain that I was concerned that my money (as opposed to the money I gave her) that I was paid on payday was fast running out.  She looked shocked and demanded to know where it's all gone.  School fees, electricity bill, weekly grocery shopping, birthday presents for our son, gas for her car, restaurant, face cream.  I told her I can show her penny for penny if she wants.   "No I don't want to see!" she raged back.

A few minutes later, in the car, she starts.  "I want you to know that I would never, ever, take money from you or our family!", she shouted.  What the heck?  Was she accusing me of stealing my money?  Was such a strong denial in the absence of an accusation about her a subconscious admission of her own guilt?  Who knows?

A few minutes later she said, "I have never said this to you before, but I'm going to say it to you now.  If you ever take your wife and son out for a meal, never, ever, complain about what you spent."  Hearing her say that made me think that there's nothing that I could say to her in reply that would make any difference so I just kept schtum.

My interpretation is that she was feeling a little bit guilty for the face cream and the only way she knew to handle it was to attack and project shame away from her and onto me.

[Lucky Jim]

My interpretation is that she was feeling a little bit guilty for the face cream and the only way she knew to handle it was to attack and project shame away from her and onto me.

That's probably pretty accurate, Dragon.  BTW, I like your subject line about her latest "tantrum," because tantrum implies a childish inability to control one's emotions, which is similar to what happens when a pwBPD is triggered.

LJ

[Dragon72]

Yesterday I was at home as I have been every day since the earthquake as my school remains shut awaiting repairs and the all-clear to return.  My wife spent the day shopping for a piñata for Jr.'s birthday party. 

When she got back I suggested that Jr. take a bath because he hadn't had one for a couple of days. Our son has a cough and a cold at the moment and she thinks that if he has a bath or a shower then being cold will make it worse.  Nevertheless she agreed.

I'm the one who normally has to go into the shower with Jr and help him get clean, so I did so as I have done hundreds of times before.  I washed him all over with a soapy sponge. Our son winced a bit when I wiped his buttcrack as I think he has a little rash down there from not having had a bath in a few days and probably not cleaning his bottom well enough after going to the bathroom.

After the shower, I handed him over to my wife to get him into his PJs. 

A few minutes later, my wife came to me and asked in a very accusatory way for an explanation of why I had hurt our son's bottom.  It seems that our son said that Daddy hurt his bottom and she jumped to the conclusion that I had done something altogether more serious and sinister.  I explained what had happened when I was washing him.  She said, "Oh damn of course, you washed him! So there's no evidence."  I said, ":)on't be ridiculous.  If you think that i would every do anything to harm him, you can get out now".  She hasn't spoken to me since, but to be fair, she hasn't tried to keep our son away from me.

But to think I am married to a person who thinks that I am doing unthinkable things to his own son makes me realise that she has zero trust and a massive dis-trust of me in everything, not only money.  What's the point of a marriage with zero trust?

It also made me realise that she could very easily start throwing completely baseless accusations around about me and make life very difficult indeed.

[Dragon72]

I'm fairly conscious that I'm well into the "devaluation" stage of the idealization/devaluation/discard cycle. And frankly, I wish she would get on to the discard stage.

It's clear she has no ability or desire for emotional or physical intimacy, so what we're left with is a controlling roommate situation.

Last night, just before 8pm I was in the downstairs living room of our very small house, watching TV on my own as usual as my wife had gone to bed with our 4 year old son at 7.30. The phone rang. It was her, asking me from the room above to adjust the child's car seat. 

What's the big deal, you may ask. It got to me for a three of reasons.
1. It's a job she could have easily done herself, so it struck me as simply a way of her exerting control.
2. Although she said "please", it sounded like an order.
3. She telephoned me from 30 feet away to ask me to do something.

I should enforce boundaries more, but often I don't notice the infringement of boundaries until after they've been breached.

I also got into trouble because I arrived home from work yesterday at the usual time, but I didn't call beforehand to say I would be arriving.  I felt like a teenager being lectured by his mom. 

[formflier]

 
And you listened to the lecture about not calling... .why?

And when she called you... .you said? 

How about "Hey... .I'm downstairs, now is a good time to chat about this... .come on down."

or.

"No. "

or

"No... I'm downstairs if you would like to discuss further"

FF

[Dragon72]

Actually I did not respond to the lecture about not calling and I just ignored her, but that's not to say that it didn't touch a nerve. She made me out to be disrespectful and inconsiderate because I didn't call to tell her I was on my way home.   I think I wouldn't achieve anything by saying "Actually I don't think it's disrespectful or inconsiderate not to call ahead" because she has already made up her mind that it is and it would be invalidating.  So I didn't agree and apologize (which I might have done before), nor did I disagre and contradict (which I feel like doing now I'm getting bolder about my own wishes and needs).   So I just left her to rant and let it bounce off.

But the thing about living long-term with a BPD person is that you begin to doubt and be unsure about what is or isn't reasonable behaviour if everything you do ends up being interpreted as a slight.  Should I be expected to call home to say I'm on my way?  Is it really rude not to?   

I must say I might be more inclined to say "Honey I'm on my way home" if the honey I'm coming home to acted more like a honey at home.

As for the phone call from upstairs, your recommended replies are exactly what I should have said and I am ashamed of myself for doing what she asked.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Dragon, Try not to JADE (justify, argue, defend or explain), which is usually a pointless exercise when responding to a pwBPD.  You did well by leaving her to her rant and letting it bounce off you, like water off the back of a duck.

I must say I might be more inclined to say "Honey I'm on my way home" if the honey I'm coming home to acted more like a honey at home.

I hear you!  I found it challenging to behave in a loving manner when my BPDxW was unloving and abusive towards me.  Instead, I practiced disengagement by adopting an attitude of indifference, which I found helpful.

LuckyJim

[formflier]

I'm going to make a suggestion for the lectures.

Starters... .good job not engaging.!   

I'm wondering if it would have been wise to ask to talk about something else and offer a time later to talk about calls home.  (do all of this in a friendly way).

then... if she agrees... .talk later and talk now about something pleasant.

If she continues with the lecture "I'm not able to have this conversation right now... .I'll be back in 10 minutes" and go do something else... .have a walk... etc etc.

The point is not to just "not react"... .the point is to protect YOU from the impact of her negativity.  So... take your ears somewhere else.

Thoughts?

FF

[Dragon72]

I'm at work right now and although my work day has nearly finished, I'm probably going to delay going home for a couple hours because I don't like going home to my own house.  At home there is tension and simmering anger and resentment and an ever-present volatility in the air.  In short: eggshells.

I'm now trying to decide whether or not to tell Mrs. D when I leave here to go home, or whether to just go home without making the call. 

I've got to learn not to give a d4mn.

[formflier]

My two cents... .don't call if your schedule is going to be "regular".

If there is going to be a major change... .let's say 30 minutes different than what is normal... .perhaps give a heads up.  No details... .just a vague heads up.

"Hey... .I'm disappointed to say some last minute issues have arisen at work.  Expect me 30 minutes later than normal.  "

No debate.

Here is the thing... .don't roll with the pigs... .fight with them... .etc etc.

IMO... it's common courtesy in a relationship to give a heads up for a schedule change. 

Big picture... .she may be understanding she is loosing the money fight... .and is trying to "poke" something else.  Make sure you are not "pokable".

The call issue is not something to expend energy or time on.  Think about deeper issues. 

FF

[Dragon72]

I think you're right about the "poking".

Yesterday, I just ignpored the lecture about not calling to say I'm on my way home.  Then, just as she was going to sleep, she realised she couldn't end the day on a "loss" for her, so she jabbed me with the telephone order just to exert her authority and get a last minute little victory.

[formflier]

I think you're right about the "poking".

Yesterday, I just ignpored the lecture about not calling to say I'm on my way home.  Then, just as she was going to sleep, she realised she couldn't end the day on a "loss" for her, so she jabbed me with the telephone order just to exert her authority and get a last minute little victory.

I think you are likely correct on your analysis of her thought patterns.  

I've been thinking about this dynamic since my last reply.  I think I know a better way.

I think be friendly, ask when the deadline is and let her know that you'll do your best is likely the most neutral and healthy way.  Let her know you "have a lot on your mind" at the moment.

Knowing she can do it if it really is needed.  You are being friendly... .but not being at her beck and call... .and you are not "tossing it back in her face".

Now... .if she is disrespectful or demanding... or orders you to do it... .then don't do it.

I made gains in this area with the phrase "I'm your husband, not your employee."  Then I would keep going about my business.  Please understand, this made it better... .but didn't "fix" it.  It went from intolerable to tolerable.  

Thoughts?

FF

PS  Was she friendly and kind when she called down... .or demanding?  My husband/employee thing is not what you say to someone being friendly... .but to someone acting like a dictator.

[Dragon72]

Yesterday when I got home she and our son were out at his swimming lesson. Needless to say she didn't call me to say she was on her way back.  Which is fine, as far as I'm concerned. But I'm not the one with the abandonment issues.  And with her, there are usually rules for me which she thinks don't apply to her.

This afternoon I will get home once again at the more or less usual time of 5pm. I think I'm going to go with the original suggestion of saying: "I usually get home at around 5.  If it looks like I'm going to be a lot earlier or a lot later, I'll let you know."

If she kicks up a fuss, I'll just let her rant for a few seconds, then I'll change the subject or find something to do elsewhere. 

[formflier]

 
My suggestion... don't explain it... .just do it.

Less words are usually better.

If she brings it up, then explain it in a more full fashion.

If she presses the issue even further... let her know that it is confusing to you and that you will understand better if she demonstrates to you... what her expectations are of you to her.

So... texting about her plans and all that.

 

Try really hard not to make it sound like a smart alleck comment.

I used to "poke the bear" some with my wife... by pointing out hypocrisy and saying... "Hey Babe... .this appears to be possibly hypocritical... .and... .since I know you are not a hypocrite I know you would want a chance to correct that... ."

See how the compliment "corners" them... .   

Then after they flop around some... ."Oh my... are you saying you are a hypocrite... ?"

FF

[Dragon72]

I think I'm going to refrain from pointing out her own hypocrisy. 

When she knows I've got her cornered or even just criticized the slightest thing about her, she always fights back twice as hard but from a different angle, opening up a whole other battle front. 

For example, in the past, I've told her that I'm feeling lonely and want her to spend more quality time with me and before I know it there's a whole tornado of BPD rage and I've found myself apologising for not taking out the trash and not ironing her blouses the way she wanted.  I'm not going back to that. So I'd rather just walk away.

It's not that I'm afraid of confrontation, I'd just prefer to avoid pointless confrontation with a BPD person with narcissistic traits.

[formflier]

 
I'm going to push back on this a bit... .

I'm not suggesting you point it out in an accusatory way... .

There should be a genuine curiosity there... ."help me understand"... .let's find something we can "come together around that works for both of us"

Give her the "out" about "appearances"... .  You know she "is not" a hypocrite and you hand her the "out" by showing leadership and action.

We both know this will be incredibly uncomfortable... .and if she refuses... .again... don't accuse.

Let her know you don't understand and will have to take time to reflect... .and you hope she will as well.

Boundaries... .boundaries boundaries... .  So... we she "attacks" from a different direction... .stay nonchalant and use boundaries to protect.  It's likely an extinction burst... .don't apologize or "do anything"... .let it burn out.

Last... .and this is the biggest deal here.

When you want more intimacy/human contact/conversation... .whatever it was you were asking for... .let her know that... .give her first chance... .and then you go get it.  (note... I'm not suggesting an affair) but "lonely" can be helped with contact with other people.

It will be a powerful shift in your r/s when she realizes that YOU will get your needs met... .even when she flips out... .even we she... xyz.

Stay friendly... express that you want to be close(r) to her but don't be demanding... .let it be her choice to isolate... or come close.  You are offering... .not demanding.  You don't understand... vice accuse.

Thoughts?

FF

[Dragon72]

"You're being very aggressive recently", she said.  I think Mrs D is beginning to notice some resistance on my part.

Here's what I think provoked the "you're being aggressive" comment:

She said she wanted me to pay for something out of my half of our money and I said that I wouldn't and couldn't because I didn't have any money left over from the family expenses this month. I told her she could pay for it out of the money I gave her for that sort of thing.

She asked me to 2 two little favors that she could easily have done herself, and I said "No, I'm not going to do that for you, as you can easily do that yourself".

She served our son warm milk (which he hates) because she is under the delusion that drinking cold drinks gives you a throat infection. My son complained about the warm milk, so I fetched him a cold one, saying that I don't believe that it will do him any harm.

I think I was simply being assertive in each case and I think she's been surprised by that and testing my resolve by playing the victim and claiming that I'm agressive.

What I didn't say is that I think HER manner of constantly making demands/orders and having her own dogmatic way is my idea of someone behaving aggressively.

[formflier]

It appears to me to be a combination of projection and boundaries... .she is bumping into your boundaries and "projecting" her emotions onto you (the aggressive thing).

Or

It could be super sensitivity... they interpret an 1 as a 6 or 7 (on a 1-10 scale).

Solid work standing up for yourself... . 

FF

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Dragon72, Sounds like you are making progress with standing your ground and asserting yourself.  Like boundaries, those techniques protect you, without harming Mrs. D.  I suggest that you get ready for the F-O-G (fear, obligation and guilt) which is the three-pronged pitchfork which those w/BPD use to manipulate us Nons.

LJ

[Dragon72]

Yesterday I told my wife about a residential training course I'm going on in a couple of weeks' time in another city an hour or so away by car, so I think her abandonment fears are beginning to bubble up.

This evening she grilled me on exactly what the course was about and who would be there too.  It didn't sound like she was asking out of interest.  It felt like she was interrogating. Ugh.

Then later, while I was flicking through Twitter, she came up behind me and had a good look at the screen.  Having nothing to hide I let her. Then she said, "Okay, let's see what you were doing before I came up behind you and reached in to touch the "Back" button. I brushed her hand away saying "Hey, get your hands off my phone".

She then got angry with me calling me rude and asking how dare I raise my hand to her.  She grabbed our son, went upstairs to bed with him, slamming the door behind her.

I don't actually mind her seeing what I do on my phone (my activity on this site excepted). What I do object to is the constant feeling that I am under surveillance and suspicion from the person who I thought I would willingly share my life with.  It's ironic.

[formflier]

You held a boundary, she didn't like it.

Did she ask and get a reply from you before physically reaching for your phone?

I don't see the difference in her doing that and you brushing it away.

Has this happened in the past?  Other "physical issues" in the past?

Again... I think you did fine, but anything physical will set a precedent and you want to be very careful and consistent with boundaries and how that is handled.

Usually a good idea to succinctly address this issue in moment of calm (to be proactive about making sure there is not a next time... as much as you can control that).

FF

[Lucky Jim]

What I do object to is the constant feeling that I am under surveillance and suspicion from the person who I thought I would willingly share my life with.  It's ironic.

I can relate, Dragon, because my BPDxW harbored the same suspicions.  In my view, we all need a zone of privacy, or "bubble," which is about having good boundaries.  Suggest you continue to protect this zone.  I had to put a passcode on my phone because my W was constantly snooping, which included looking at confidential communications w/ clients, which was a big red flag  .

LuckyJim

[Red5]

"It's a job she could have easily done herself, so it struck me as simply a way of her exerting control."
 
"I felt like a teenager being lectured by his mom." 

Happens to me all the time Dragon72 !

[Dragon72]

About the phone privacy, something she used to do when there was still a modicum of playfulness left in our relationship was to creep up on me when she knew I was looking at my phone and go "Boo!".  She would then look closely at the screen hoping to have caught me in the act.  I really don't like people surprising me with a "Boo" when I think I'm alone, whatever I'm doing.  She seemed to think it was hilarious.  Thankfully that has stopped.

However, what still happens is that, whenever I type anything on my phone, when I'm googling something for example, she asks me "Who are you sending a message to?". I'm not sending a message to anybody.

The constant suspicion and sneaky surveillance is tiring.

[formflier]

How do you respond when she asks who you are sending a message to? 

That is probably the key to potentially changing this behavior in her.

It is likely that she is "getting something" from this or it "works" for her in some fashion.  It is unlikely that she is doing it to "punish you" or to "make you feel something".  Remember... this is about her and her feelings (even though I understand your feelings are being hurt in this). 

So, if you can depersonalize this so you can consistently change your reactions, it is likely that we can figure out something that "doesn't work for her" and stick with that. 

Combine this with some proactive "checking in" on her feelings and perhaps a new dynamic can emerge.  Expect this to take a while.

 

Hang in there.

FF

[Dragon72]

I normally react by saying the truth about what I'm doing in as dispassionate a voice as I can muster. "Actually I'm checking the weather forecast."

I see that as the best way to respond.

If I respond sharply by complaining about her suspicious mind, that'll only fan her flames. Likewise, if I flat out ignore her comment, she'll kick off about how rude that is. And she'd be right.

I don't know what other options I have.

[formflier]

 

I would suggest staying friendly... .perhaps a little bit startled.  "Oh my!... .I was lost in a private thought there for a moment.  Let me put this phone away and pay attention to you.  Want me to get some tea and we can talk?"

Then... ."lean in" (slightly) to the r/s... ask about her.  Don't debate your privacy.  If she presses... .be bemused at her perception of "entitlement" to jump into your privacy whenever she wants.

"Babe... .rest assured if I come across something interesting online, I'll share it with you."

FF

[Dragon72]

It's clear her abandonment antennae are up.

No doubt exacerbated by the fact that her parents have just left the country after a short-ish visit during which my mother-in-law (76) divided her material things between her children with a clear but unspoken message that she doesn't have long left in this world.

And now Mom's no longer in the country she's turning her abandonment fears on to me.  This morning at the breakfast table, I was singing a song I have been teaching myself to play on the guitar. I was in a good mood and I like the song so I was singing it with "gusto".

Her response, "Are you in love?"

She didn't say it in a jokey way. I could tell that it was a genuine fear in her head at the time.

Another example: every Sunday she goes to church with our son.  I'm not religious so I usually stay behind at the house and do chores or go for a run.  Last Sunday she was running late for church and so I helped her get herself and our son ready. She understood that to mean that I was eager for them to leave so I could be alone in the house. So she suddenly decided to skip church last weekend.

Now I know what Winston Smith went through.

[formflier]

 
How can you be "proactive" to assure her?  Very different than being "reactive".

How did you answer the question about "being in love"?

FF

[Dragon72]

I just ignored the question about being in love.

The truth is, I'm not in love with anybody.  I fell out of love with my wife years ago. When the devaluation started, when she withdrew all emotional intimacy and she chose to lead a separate life under our shared roof, and when I came to the realization that she's never going to be able to have a mutually giving and loving relationship with me.

[formflier]

 
Never is a big word... .if she's "never" going to (fill in the blank)... .that's going to affect your attitude towards her... .which she will sense... .which will affect your r/s... .which will affect your attitude... .which she will sense... .which will become a self fulfilling prophecy.

Now... .I'm not suggesting a blatant lie.  I am suggesting that you could have used the question for the good of the relationship.

"Are you asking if I am in love with you?"

"Are you asking if I am committed to you?"

"Are you asking about my feelings for you?"  (this would be my best choice... given what I know of your feelings)  Because she would likely not confirm this, which would get you out of saying if you love her or not.

How long has it been since you have said you love her?

How long since she has said that to you?

FF

[formflier]

How often do you ignore questions from her? 


FF

[Dragon72]

I'm not in the habit of not answering questions from her. However I have done it in the past one or two times when I have felt that she has asked me a question not because she wants an answer but because she is trying to either provoke a reaction or manipulate my behaviour. 

For example, recently, after I had spent an hour and a half or so thoroughly cleaning the rooms downstairs on a Sunday morning to do my bit to help out with the housework, instead of saying "thanks for doing that", she asked, "Why did you drop that cushion on the floor?".  I honestly don't know what answer she wanted. 

I think I was the last person to say I love you. I think it was about a year ago and I remember not believing it when I said it.  That's why I haven't said it since.  Because I don't believe I do love her.

The last time she said it to me was a month or two before that.  It didn't sound too convincing from her either.  I think it was when she was asking me to do something for her.

[Dragon72]

The tale of the king-size bed

As I have often mentioned, my wife has, except for a couple of short stints, slept in our son's bed since he was born 4 years ago.  At the end of each of those short stints, she has complained about the mattress in "my" bed and urged me to get a new one.  Initially I said we couldn't afford it and she suggested we could get it on monthly payments, but I still resisted because we just can't afford an extra $X going out of the account every month. We struggle to make ends meet as it is.  However I agreed with the idea of a new mattress as I wanted her to have one less excuse for her and me not sharing a bed and sleeping with our son.

So this weekend was Black Friday and I figured I could pay for a new bed on my credit card and then use my Xmas bonus to pay off the cc balance next month.  My wife was happy with that.  So we went to the bed shop and asked about prices.  She asked initially for prices for a queen size. I said I'd like to get a King size because I prefer a little more space when I sleep and don't want to be so squashed up.  And for once I pushed for it, while normally what she says goes in these situations.  And so we bought the King which will be delivered tomorrow.  She seemed happy.

This morning I dismantled the old bed to make space for the new one and as I was doing so, I said to her that I would reassemble our son's bed (in which she has been sleeping too) which at the moment is just a mattress on the floor.  It has been like that since he was small because she has been afraid that he might fall out of the bed.  I said that he's 4 now and he'll be fine sleeping in a bed that's raised off the ground.  She didn't like that idea.

That's when she exploded.  "Your just a macho dictator saying how our lives have to be and I don't get a say, is that it?"

I think that was a trigger for me too. "Yes I'm the macho dictator who is daily following your orders and also doing things for you without being ordered. The macho dictator who mops all the floors every weekend, who cooks and cleans for you to lighten your load, the macho dictator who hangs up and takes down the laundry, the macho dictator who irons clothes for the whole family when you do everybody else's except mine, the macho dictator who bathes and feeds and reads bedtime stories to our son while you're at the hairdresser."

She then goes on the attack.  "You said that the master bedroom was "your" bedroom like I don't count". 

"Well you haven't slept there for the last 4 years, so naturally I've started thinking of it as mine. I'm buying the bed because I want us to be closer. I want our son in his bed and you in our bed. I want you to spend time with me in the afternoons and evenings too.  Whenever I'm at home, you busy yourself with housework, or you go and pray in your room or go to sleep early.  I want us to be closer. I feel like you avoid me."

"That's only your interpretation of it. And besides I tried coming down to watch TV with you and you wanted to watch something different".  (She has come downstairs maybe 4 times in the last couple of years, and we have watched what she wanted to watch)

"So let's chat instead of watching TV. Let's be friends.  I want us to be close and for us to want to be together"

"How can we do that with the way you treat me?  The worse you treat me, the more distant I become."

"How have I treated you badly?" 

Then she dodged the question and it all became circular with her mentioning that it was obvious that I didn't want to be with her because I told the man in the store I wanted a king size not a queen because I didn't want physical contact with her.  I repeated that I am buying the bed precisely because I want to be more close to her.

I wasn't going to carry on the conversation because it wasn't going anywhere.  I told her I would discuss it later.  Then she got all 4-year old on me and gave me the "I'm not talking to you" treatment.

So I left.

I think I hit the sweetspot that triggered not only her abandonment fears but also her fear of intimacy.  I am getting ever closer to making a date with a lawyer.

[Dragon72]

Today I stuck up for myself and I answered back and I got things off my chest about how much I put up with and how little she makes herself emotionally available in the marriage.

I was probably very invalidating to her.  But you know what, I'm through with caring too much about her emotions and appeasing the monster and burying my own emotions.

So I'm glad I said to her what I did, even though it was probably not helpful to our relationship.  But anyway, I'm realizing only now that our relationship ended very soon after it became a committed one years ago. I just didn't see all the many red flags.

[Turkish]

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