Husband's business partner solicits escort services

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I’m also calling out to all of you to help me resolve the following dilemma:
My husband runs a successful business with his partner, Let’s call him V. Over the years V. Has been on the front lines, both witnessing and withholding BPD storms. He also observed my BPD struggles. We have never been friends, but for the sake of the business we were allies in keeping my uBPDh stable and business that fed both of our families, running smoothly. Whenever my uBPDh was distegulated at work, V. Would call me and “ask for help”, I in tern helped to sooth uBPDh and life went on as usual. Over the past year V. Personal life went sour, many things came to the surface. His infidelities, him domestically abusing his wife, withholding financial support from her, while endulging in expensive toys. All of those are terrible things, but non of my business, until recently. My uBPDh and V. Have an operation center in another town, 6 hours away that they recently opened. It requires some maintainance every now and again. Whenever my uBPDh goes I come along for the following reasons: my uBPDh is extremely gifted and bright, when it comes to creating the business ideas. However when it comes to hurdles along the way, which is typical for any business he backs off. By staying close and paying attention I’m highly successful in helping him overcome isssues and motivate him to stay on track. He is very proud of his accomplishments. Secondly, everywhere V. Goes, he tries either to solicit excort service or pick someone up, for his needs aren’t met at home. My uBPDh is highly suggest able. Given his issues with a substance abuse and different behaviour while intoxicated, leads me that the only solution is to babysit him, even on business trips.

[snowglobe]

I’m also calling out to all of you to help me resolve the following dilemma:
My husband runs a successful business with his partner, Let’s call him V. Over the years V. Has been on the front lines, both witnessing and withholding BPD storms. He also observed my BPD struggles. We have never been friends, but for the sake of the business we were allies in keeping my uBPDh stable and business that fed both of our families, running smoothly. Whenever my uBPDh was distegulated at work, V. Would call me and “ask for help”, I in tern helped to sooth uBPDh and life went on as usual. Over the past year V. Personal life went sour, many things came to the surface. His infidelities, him domestically abusing his wife, withholding financial support from her, while endulging in expensive toys. All of those are terrible things, but non of my business, until recently. My uBPDh and V. Have an operation center in another town, 6 hours away that they recently opened. It requires some maintainance every now and again. Whenever my uBPDh goes I come along for the following reasons: my uBPDh is extremely gifted and bright, when it comes to creating the business ideas. However when it comes to hurdles along the way, which is typical for any business he backs off. By staying close and paying attention I’m highly successful in helping him overcome isssues and motivate him to stay on track. He is very proud of his accomplishments. Secondly, everywhere V. Goes, he tries either to solicit excort service or pick someone up, for his needs aren’t met at home. My uBPDh is highly suggest able. Given his issues with a substance abuse and different behaviour while intoxicated, leads me that the only solution is to babysit him, even on business trips.

[snowglobe]

And now, the very issue at hand, after the operation center opened up, V. Became very resistant in terms of me accompanying my husband. Reasons vary from “I can’t fart while you are in the car” to “I need to discuss the important logistics, that I don’t want to share with you”. My uBPDh doesn’t mind me tagging along, as I’m very easy on the trips, don’t require any attention and am able to give my uBPDh a sound advice regarding the business. I know, because my uBPDh shares everything with me, that V. Doesn’t want me to go because he is “f-ing” there and doesn’t want me to know. He is afraid of me sharing this information with his wife, which he is planning to leave penniless with a child. We are able to pay for my gas, or a train ticket and the hotel to stay out of our pocket. I told V. That although I understand and respect his wish not to have me there, as long as I’m not a)driving with them, b)partake in the business meetings, c) share the hotel room, I respectively decline his wish for me not to be there. I’m gonna drive on my own, rent a hotel room and wait for uBPDh to come to me, once he is done work. UBPDh is very stressed, as he hates to be in the middle, he can’t tell off to his partner, and can’t tell me not to go. I’m actually feeling his frustration.
Experts, please, advise me on how to speak to V. In order to resolve this issue amicably. I can’t confront him on cheating on his wife, nor can I disclose that my uBPDh told me that V. Was trying to get him to partake in massage with “happy ending session”. V., clearly is highly morally corrupted, and is trying to get my uBPDh to participate, so he would gain more control over company. I can see his manipulation and exploitation of my uBPDh, clear as day. Should I just do what I need to do for my family and not comment? I’m an adult, who doesn’t need a permission to act as I see fit.

[Mutt]

Hi snowglobe,



Your H’s business partner has a troubled personal life, DV, cheating, and overspends.

Do you trust him with the business? To answer your question about what to say, I agree with your choice of not saying anything, don’t get involved.

[snowglobe]

Hi,



Your H’s business partner has a troubled personal life, DV, cheating, and overspends.

Do you trust him with the business? To answer your question about what to say, I agree with your choice of not saying anything, don’t get involved.

I don’t trust my uBPDh’s partner- he knows my husband’s weaknesses, such as drinking, drugs and inflaming his ego. In combination for the partner those are useful skills into getting my uBPDh to agree to s bad deal. For me, it will bring more drugs, violtility and now infidelity.

[snowglobe]

I lost it, after weeks of emotional and verbal abuse, I lose it. I came home hungry, as I was taking an exam, the carpooled to drive my kids to extracurricular and then shopping. Only to find out that my uBPDh left within minutes after he came home. My mom was there when he wS getting ready to leave, almost dancing all the way to the car. I was quite upset that he didn’t even tell me he was driving out, or called me to say that he made it safe. When I called, he was at the Restaraunt with his partner, I could hear that drunk laughing and slur coming out of him. That is when I lost it: “I started yelling, crying, that this will not work for me, telling him he has to change, basically hysterical” he hung up 3 times and ignored 28 calls from me. Now what?. There was no apology or validation, he was laughing at me?.
I think I need to go to codependent treatment group, I’m so exhausted

[AskingWhy]

I am so sorry you are feeling this.  pwBPD/NPD are indeed often emotionally and verbally abusive.

There is something called "crazy-making" when dealing with those with personality disorders.  You are the sane one but the behavior of the pwBPD is driving you crazy.  It is clear his friendship with this partner somehow fills a need in him.  pwNPD/BPD have very shallow concepts of self and define themselves through others.  They are often copycats and followers as they don't have a real sense of self.

I recommend, at this point, that you consider backing off all the way.   No phone calls from you when your H is out drinking.

pwBPD are addicted to turmoil and drama.  (It reminds them of their own dysfunctional family of origin.)  With the 28 hysterical phone calls you are giving your H the drama he craves.  Backing off will be hard as there may already be a pattern of you calling him wanting communication that he is unable to give.  Resist the urge to call him and engage in the drama.

Have you considered your H to also be NPD?  Both NPD and BPD can be what psychiatrists call "comorbid," which means illnesses existing together."

When my H goes out with his friends for a vacation he gets drunk and does not call me until the next afternoon.  He does not even think of me. I believe that this is because of the "object permanence" issues experienced pwBPD.  It's like the infant who cannot see his mother and thinks she does not exist.  This is like BPD/NPD splitting and their inability to see emotional shades of gray, and can only see people as "all good" or "all bad."  When my H is out drinking he cannot think of me or think of calling me.  He is only experiencing the moment, just like an infant.

I hope this helps you understand what might be happening.

I do think you need to seek counseling by yourself for your own peace of mind, and perhaps join a group at some point.  It helps to have an impartial professional help you sort out your feelings.  It will also validate what you are experiencing.

I wish you the best.

[Notwendy]

Whenever I see a triangle ( you, your H, and V) I think of drama.

I truly understand your fears. However, your H is a grown adult and is responsible for his own actions. If you feel you need to be there to babysit him, then you are caretaking an adult in a way. I also think there is another side to this- and this is resentment on both your parts- you resent having to watch him and he probably resents you watching him.

Having a spouse involved in work relationships can be intrusive- with the people at work feeling resentful. I don't mind my H meeting my co-workers or coming along socially, but I would be furious if he was there to watch me. I know he would feel the same.

The workplace can present all kinds of situations and temptations.  But if someone wants to do something ilicit, they can do it anywhere- and unless we watch them 24/7 we can not prevent something from happening if they choose to do it.  My H could say the same thing for me- I have been on business trips and how I behave is up to me.

I have found co-dependency 12 step groups to be very helpful in keeping me focused on what is my side of the fence and what is not. And also the serenity prayer- God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference.

[snowglobe]

@Askingwhy, upon deeper inspection I do too realize that whenever I’m not around, my uBPDh is acting and thinking as if I don’t exist. Largely for that reason I’m experiencing the anxiety of him acting on his impulses. Even though I think I know him well, I also know that alcohol and drugs make him a very different person. I wish I didn’t know all the turmoils that V. Is creating for his life, for now I feel not only cheated upon physically, but emotionally pushed out of the business that I have helped my uBPDh start. I have obstained from calling or texting him, he doesn’t try to contact me either. This ambiguity is killing me.

[snowglobe]

@Notwendy, thank you for your insightful comment, there is a tug of war between me and V. Over my uBPDh. I want him to behave a certain way, putting family interests first and V. Needs a wingman to continue his indiscretions, hide real financial setuation to make his divorce “dry” as he calls it. I’m an active participant in this triangle, not wanting to give up mine, as I do feel entitled to all revenues collected from the business I’ve helped my uBPDh from the ground up. Over many months of financial succrifice and “giving him a break” while he is disregulating due to stress, I feel entitled for the revenue that they will be collecting. I also want to give my uBPDh a sound advice when it comes to merger and acquisitions. Over 16 years that have been together all the decisions we made jointly allowed our family to prospect. Every decision he made against my advice made him loose large amounts of money, get depressed ultimately making our family loose twice; once financially and then having him emotionally abuse us. He doesn’t learn from his mistakes, there isn’t any appreciation or asknowledgement on his part. However, I also recognize the worrying signs in my behaviour. I’ve been acting crazy trying to control the uncontrollable. As I will finish my post, I will look for 12 step codependent program to inroll into. If I ever invested as much time and effort as I do into him, I would be very successful and satisfied.

[formflier]

I would suggest you speak directly to V and let him know that your purpose is to protect YOUR family's interests.

"As you know, from time to time my help is needed with "BPDh".  We have a successful partnership in keeping my hubby focused on where he is most productive."

No need to discuss V's private life. 

This is about boundaries...

If V wants to fart in the car... .offer to drive separately with your hubby.  They can talk on the phone if they need to discuss "logistics"

So... think about drama.  Avoid it.  That is best done by directly and succinctly addressing your part in this... .and not discussing the rest.

FF

[snowglobe]

@Formflier, you are absolutely correct, V.’s private life is none of my business, until he started to dictate the boundaries that we have set 16 years ago. And here is the explanation of how his personal life now became my problem.

I have spoken to V. directly when this whole “she can’t come” begun. Very calmly I Explained To Him that I’m not trying to trans pass against his freedom, I’m merely following the rules we’ve established 16 y.o. Unfortunately, I’ve covered the details of his private life in order to explain that V. Needs a wingman and active participant in his ran devout. He wouldn’t hear my explanations, stating that he doesn’t want to share my uBPDh’s time with me?. To me it’s ridiculous for several reasons: if it’s business partnership, then my iBPDh’s work hours should expire at some point in the day, therefore, what my h does in free hour should not concern V., who wants to be enterneined and dined out. If we are taking about friendship, non of my uBPDh’s real friends would ask this of him all the while knowing our family dinamics. My uBPDh came back different from spending 48 hours away from home alone with V. It’s like a completely different person, he took his mannerism, the way he speaks, his new “life goals” as if he is a sponge. I’m feeling as if V. Came back instead of my uBPDh. We’ve had these issues many times before, my uBPDh changes his goals, outlooks in life and attitude, depending on the type of people he surrounds himself with. It’s very much consistent with the diagnosis of BPD. I’m prepared to fight for my family tooth and nail, my kids need their dad, I need my husband. I would appreciate any kind of advice on how to “fight” this battle without hurting my uBPDh.

[babyducks]

Hi,

Most of us arrive here in crisis.   With a lot of high conflict intense things going on.    I know I did.    It takes a while to first "stop the bleeding" as it says in step 1 in the box on the right   and then take a step backward (step 2)

Arriving during a crisis point it is hard for us, all of us.    This is right out of Step 2 take a step backward.

So, this is a bit of a delicate thing. The objective is not to move out and live on a mountain - it is simply to let go of the drama and the battle of who is right/wrong. Let go of the hurt feelings or the resentment just enough to take yourself out of the day to day drama - long enough for you to see things more clearly.

You should do this privately without notifying your partner - just quietly make time. Maybe take more time at the gym, more time in the yard working, maybe extend a business trip by a day or two. Quietly clear enough time/peace so you can re-balance yourself, think more clearly, and be a little more open minded.

For now, accept that things are not what you want them to be, that they may not be fair, and that bad things have happened. Accept that your partner has a complex disorder that is not just going to go away. This is not to say that we should agree with any of this or to say that it is OK.

This is why I like this quote.   Most of us are by our very natures fixers,... .care takers,   care givers of some kind.   We want to do something.   Many of us wanted to 'fix' our partners/spouses.    Being such a part of internal make up it's hard to see how fixing doesn't help.

I want to talk about emotional baseline for a minute.   Emotional baseline is exactly what it sounds like.  the place where a person is operating from their set point,  their normal ordinary feeling state.  

You have a better chance for a productive conversation when both people are at their emotional baselines.    Not carrying residual emotions,  not over sensitive, not reactive.   Right now, it sounds like neither you or your H are at or near your emotional baselines.     So I agree with FF

So... think about drama.  Avoid it.  

What ever you can do to remove the incredible emotional intensity will help create an environment where you can perhaps have a more productive conversation down the road.   Changes will be small and subtle and appear over time.  

I noticed this in what you wrote:

 I’m prepared to fight for my family tooth and nail, my kids need their dad, I need my husband. I would appreciate any kind of advice on how to “fight” this battle without hurting my uBPDh.

I want to mention that words are important.   Words create our viewpoint on things.   If we define things as a fight.  A tug of war.   that is how we are going to act and feel.    I agree with AskingWhy

I recommend, at this point, that you consider backing off

allow some time for feelings to settle, both yours and his.   if something comes up, listen, be calm and build in safety valves to the conversation,  'I want to take a break from this conversation,  let's discuss it again later'.    

work to take the volatility out of your exchanges.    if things start to heat up "I need to stop for now, H"

I used to tell my partner "I don't want to fight anymore so I am going to XYZ and will see you later."  It was strangely effective.

my two cents
'ducks

[Notwendy]

I agree with Ducks that many of us arrive here in conflict or crisis. If I am familiar with these ":)rama Triangle" dynamics, it is because I have unknowingly been in them myself- with more than one triangle.

Although your reasons are solid- the financial survival of your family and business, what you are doing is classic DT dynamics. The problem with this dynamic is that, it seldom works, and all parties on the triangle end up feeling like they are the victim. You- the victim of V, husband- either the victim or you or V, and V- feels like a victim of you. All are blaming someone else for the problems. This doesn't make any of the people involved to see their own part in this- all involved have their own dysfunctions.

The triangle dynamic also serves as a stabilizer for a pair on the triangle. When two people are bonded "against" a common persecutor, they are together, looking outward at the problem- the third party and this takes their focus off their own issues and the relationship issues. The two feel more solidified together when bonded like this. The potential arrangements are: you and your H vs V, and your H and V vs you- the intruder in their business trips ( and they bond together over their drinking and your H being the Wingman).

Although you are "fighting" for your connection with your H, your H has a relationship with V that he apparently values. You perceive your H as a victim of V's bad behavior and are stepping in as Rescuer. The result isn't effective- V sees you as persecutor and bonds with your H.

What isn't being acknowledged is this: None of you are Victims. Victims are people who generally have no choice and are helpless in a situation. Example of Victims are abused children, or the elderly, or someone facing unfortunate circumstances like the recent hurricanes.

People may also experience the result of their own decisions. They are not Victims. They are legal adults with their own free will to make decisions. Your H made his own decision to go out drinking with V. One can not control a full grown legal adult- even if that adult doesn't make good decisions.

Also, when you step in to protect your H, you are actually enabling his dysfunctional behaviors with V. He isn't taking responsibility for his actions.

Yes, it is scary to see this happen and also a threat to you. However, what you are doing is classic enabling. The wife of the alcoholic calls her husband's boss to tell him her husband is sick, when he is actually missing work because he is drunk. When this happens, the H doesn't face the consequences of his drinking, so the wife enables him. She is naturally worried about his job as the family depends on it.

I say this with compassion and not an accusation. I have been here myself. My H had some issues with his job situation. I made the job the "Persecutor" for years, and thought of my H as a Victim of the situation at work. I made compensations for that. I felt so bonded with him, against the situation- work was so unfair, his business partners were so unfair. This took the focus off our own marital issues and his part in the work situation. It took a crisis at work to get him to see the situation for what it was. By that time, I had done some co-dependency work. The issue was between him and a business partner- but it was my H's issue to solve, not mine. Yes, it affected our finances and time with family- but until my H experienced it, he did not take action. My enabling him, seeing him as a Victim, didn't help this happen.

My relationship with my parents was a triangle. I stepped in to "rescue" my father from my BPD mother. He was elderly and ill and I was afraid she was not going to take care of him well.  Although my motives were solid, like yours- my father's well being, I ignored the fact that he was a grown adult and still mentally competent to make his own decisions, even if I didn't agree with them. My intrusion into their relationship put me in Persecutor mode.

The advice to back away from your H's relationship with V seems to be against all you want for your family. You want to "fight" for your H, but the DT (IMHO) is a losing battle. If you back off, you make your H responsible for his decisions. If there is some way to protect yourself- and your family- by placing some money in a different bank account -separate from the business- perhaps taking some legal action to protect your assets, then this makes sense, but trying to control your H's decisions and this triangle with V can be crazy making for you.

[formflier]

I'm a "words" guy.  Most of the time the words we use "reveal" our thinking and attitude.  By being deliberate about replacing words with others, over time, we can help modify our thinking and attitudes.  (yes... .this will likely feel odd... .uncomfortable).


Whatever you can do to remove "fight" from your "vocabulary" will likely help you.  If you want the word to be part of your vocabulary, then I would advise being very "deliberate" about how you use the word and how you fight.

Most fights produce wounds... .many wounds don't heal completely or leave a scar.

Sometimes fights are not avoidable, those times should be rare and should result in deep reflection on the "fighter's" part about the relationship.

Based on my current understanding of your relationship (which is admittedly in it's early stages) I think "communicating clearly and directly" and "respecting decisions" are much better than fighting.

In the broadest sense

1.  Make sure you have communicated clearly to your hubby (most importantly) and to the business partner.

2.  Be prepared that one or both of them may "listen" to you... completely understand you... .and still decide that another course of action is in THEIR best interests.  Please don't hold that against them... just as you should not expect them to hold things against you.

3.  "holding things against you" is different than deciding a business relationship can go forward or should end.  


On to what I don't quite understand.

Can you explain more about your hubby's gifts in business (particularly this business) and his "deficits"... .places where you come in and support him for his benefit and the benefit of the business.

The more detailed the example... the better.  My goal is to help find boundaries that keep the business alive... and let's all people choose the private life (sexual or otherwise) of their choosing.

I realize that some of the apparent choices the business partner is making are shocking (they are to me anyway).  It would also appear there is a successful business here.

I'm hoping there is a way that all people involve can have sex in a manner they feel comfortable with and a successful business can go forward.

Offhand you wouldn't think that should be hard... .but those of us on these boards know that pwBPD specialize in "making the easy hard"

The good news... .oftentimes hard isn't impossible... .

Hang in there.

FF

[snowglobe]

Babyducks,
Thank you for drawing my attention to specific points in reconciliation process, specifically I want to adress a few point:
1. Your observation of both myself and my uBPDh being disregulated, unable to see things clearly. I’ve been working in overdrive with managing household chores, carpooling the kids, preparing for exams and coming back to my uBPDh being triggered by the smallest issue. This threw me off of my equilibrium big time. Instead of taking the time for myself to gather strength and energy, I’ve been putting all of it into neutralizing his splitting behaviour. I’ve already contacted the director for the local co-dependency support group that runs on Wednesday nights. I won’t announce it, as anything closely threatening to him will paint me “unstable and crazy”. I have never got a chance to learn how to function on my own as a healthy adult, going from living with my uBPD and undiagnosed histrionic mother to uBPDh, I’ve always been swayed by other people’s emotions. That was my way of surviving in this world. I need to unlearn this behaviour.
Secondly, your advice on creating space and safety valves came up today when we were driving back home from the control center in the town 6 hours away. I wasn’t happy about difference in our trips vs my uBPDh trips with his partner. At the risk of sounding vain, their trips always involve top notch accommodations and fine dining. Where’s when I go with my uBPDh it’s on route fast food, and basic lower chain hotel stay. My typical behaviour would be to nag and make comparison, stating that I do just as much hard labour as my uBPDh’s partner, I don’t get paid for doing that, and the least he could do is to treat me to the same accommodations and dining as when he goes with his partner. However today, I’ve realized that doing that would further remove us from reaching homeostasis and alienate me from my uBPDh. So I tried the breathing, my new mantra “not everything needs to be said out loud” and pretended to sleep. When we stopped at the gas station he asked me why I had that wounded look in my eyes when I look at him. I told him that I did not want to talk about it much,but I did some soul searching and realized that everyone has their role in life. It was my way of extending a green brunch over, instead of painting V. as a villain. An hour passed and he asked me if I wanted to pull over to the next big town to have a dinner at a nice Restaraunt. I agreed, without putting too much pressure. He asked if I wouldn’t mind to call Home, and ask if the kids and my mom and my grandma wanted to join us for dinner. It’s a very nice gesture on his part. To treat my family to a nice meal after 73 hours of almost non stop working and commuting 6 hours one way. The healing will take time, I want to do everything I can to keep this marriage

[snowglobe]

@NotWendy,
Thank you so much for your valid argument, can you please elaborate a little more about Classical DT dynamics as I’m not familiar with that.
You are very insightful regarding the triangle setuation, uBPDh have had many conflicts with V. In the past, going as far as telling me that he wanted out. Him being very reactive and unstable, I was able to convince him and calm him down enough to make him see the benefits of staying in this partnership. Perhaps that is why I feel betrayed by V. Enforcing his 60s lifestyle on my uBPDh. I could see your compassion and understanding from your personal experience. I imagine it all boils down to trust. I do not see my husband being strong enough to withhold temptation, especially intoxicated or on drugs. I firsthand observed the change of his behaviour, without exception he becomes a seeker and an explorer of sexual fantasies. It’s my fear that if and when I’m not with him on these long overnight trips, he will follow V. Suit and commit adultery. Without sound ring overly dramatic, it’s something I would not be able to live with. So ultimately it’s me, trying to protect myself from being hurt. What can I do with that?.

[snowglobe]

@Formflier,
Could you please elaborate on your earlier suggestion of recognizing their role as a fighter?
-> Re uBPDh’s special talents. Back splash, uBPDh is extremely ambitious, it’s not enough to be good at something, he has to be exceptional at anything he does, he can persevere for a while, but if he fails at something even once he abandons the project or relationship. We have had obscene financial overhead for the last 11 years. From mortgage to Autistic son’s therapy he needs to cover, refusing to let me work. He refuses to partake in any household chores or child raising, his way of compensating for it is to support us financially. He always said that even if he wouldn’t make money, he wouldn’t clean the house or wake up earlier then 10 am just to make our kids lunches or send them to school. Largely due to that reason he had to be extra creative in his field to keep on pulling the rabbit out of a hat. The industry that he works in is largely organic and ever changing. By being borderline obsessive with his need to make money, he was able to ride the wave and find new business ideas to invest in and develop. On a contrary, V.’s only talent is being a “go getter” as he calls himself. Once my husband establishes the perimeter and makes the machine run, V. Takes care of small logistics. I do that for my uBPDh too, it’s really not hard at all. So, to sum it off, V. Is a “leech” who has been riding the greasy train and now becoming too gready to share with his soon to be ex wife. As a result he is trying to distance my h from me by creating these “new rules boys only”. To illustrate further, he has been calling me many times when my uBPDh was raging at him to “calm him down”, because I know firsthand what kind of impact it can have on anyone I have been sympathetic. I’m the past I’ve tried to show my uBPDh V.’s side of the argument thus successfully continuing these relationships.

[Notwendy]

There is information on the DT here:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

I understand your concerns about your H being influenced by V. The problem with fearing adultery is that, you'd have to be with him all the time to be sure he does not. If that was even possible, would it be a good thing for your relationship? ( I don't have the answer to that one)

I used to have that fear too. My H actually admits to having that fear with me too- I haven't cheated or given him any reason to fear that I would, but I suppose I could if I wanted to. So could he. Anyone can cheat if they choose to do that.

We have both seen some long term consequences of others doing that. They have broken up their families. One of my H's friends is a player, and I used to be concerned my H was envious of his lifestyle, until he saw his friend paying alimony ,two households and hardly ever seeing his kids. Adultery has consequences, and my H doesn't want them.

I came to a place of peace about that. I realized that if I believed adultery was wrong, all I could do is not do it myself. Humans have free will to choose. I know that I would be hurt if my H did that, but in the long run, he would have to live with himself- knowing he did that. Over time, and dealing with co-dependency, I realized that my own self esteem came from living according to my values, not what someone else chooses to do. If my H did cheat, then I would have to make a decision about what I would do about that, but so far, I don't think he has. So what is the point of spending time fearing it, or trying to supervise him to see that he doesn't?

[babyducks]

Hi

Sounds like you did some good work on the ride home.      That's a good first step.

Instead of taking the time for myself to gather strength and energy, I’ve been putting all of it into neutralizing his splitting behaviour.

I learned this from another member here and it was helpful to me so I am going to pass it along to you.

I was told to imagine the connection between me and my partner as a river.    Just for now, put away all the who's right, who's wrong, shame, blame, fault, anger and resentment.  Take all that and put it in a box and concentrate on the river.    

If our connection was a river, there were times the river was placid, smooth, inviting, comforting.   And then were times where a huge storm had blown through and the river was raging, with fast currents, white water, not a good place to put my toes into.  

I was told that, if during a period of storm  I tried to reason with, explain to, justify, argue and defend all I was essentially doing was pouring more water (more energy) into the river.   And that my water would get lost in the swell and make the currents faster.    That was not my goal.

I noticed that you said:

So ultimately it’s me, trying to protect myself from being hurt. What can I do with that?.

First you stay out of the river when the water is moving too fast.    He may follow you into a more healthy way of interacting.   He may not.    It's too soon to tell.    

Second, as Notwendy said you come to a place of peace by focusing on yourself.    You work on 'unlearning being swayed by others emotions'.   You can't cure, control, change, or convince someone of anything.   You can make a difference in how you act/react.   That's a process.  It takes time.   It involves growing yourself into a better stronger person.  

Third, you continue to avoid drama.    You want that river to be calm so you can dip your toes in it, send sail boats across it.    

How does all that sound?

'ducks

[formflier]

@Formflier,
Could you please elaborate on your earlier suggestion of recognizing their role as a fighter?
 

I'm hurrying off to church.  Can you quote or point me to what I said earlier... .I'll try to work on it later this afternoon.

Also... .instead of being aware and acting on details in V's life... .or your opinion of his motivations... .I would focus on appropriate and enforceable business activities.  

Do I have it right that your hubby is the "producer" and V is the "hanger on"?  Again... a quick impression so I may have it wrong.

FF

[formflier]

Whatever you can do to remove "fight" from your "vocabulary" will likely help you.  If you want the word to be part of your vocabulary, then I would advise being very "deliberate" about how you use the word and how you fight.

Most fights produce wounds... .many wounds don't heal completely or leave a scar.

Sometimes fights are not avoidable, those times should be rare and should result in deep reflection on the "fighter's" part about the relationship.
 

I'm making some guesses here... is the quoted part what you were asking about.

My point is... .fights should generally be avoided.  They rarely solve things and almost always hurt feelings.

Having a pwBPD involved makes it all the more complicated to avoid "fights"... but it can be done.


Hope this makes sense.  If I'm off the mark on my answer to your question... please let me know.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I can really appreciate your concerns. My ex husband associated with some sleazy guys who encouraged bad behavior. There wasn't much I could do about it and he was not at all hesitant to engage in all sorts of hijinks, especially when he got high or drunk.

The best you can do is to take care of yourself, and as others have said, you can't be his monitor 24/7. He's going to do what he's going to do.

[snowglobe]

@Notwendy, I appreciate all resources that you keep on sending my way. Upon re-reading the article as well as you reply to me, several things caught my attention:
My uBPDh, me and another person are always in a triangle. It’s either my uBPDh, me and V, ubodh, me and my mom, uBPDh and his mom and the list follows. It’s much easier to transfer the blame to someone, rather then to accept that majority of the issues that are coming our way, stance from the fact that he is the PwBPD and his actions have a direct impact on our relationships. He is extremely fearful of me abandoning the rescuer mode, as he is always expecting me to come and “regulate him, make him feel better, care enough no help him fix the problems”. In tern, i got so used to fixing the problems, that every time he is about to make I mistake, I jump right in to prevent him from making it, as I know I will be the one to clean up that mess. Specifically, I think me enabling him and taking on majority of emotional soothing and regulation I’ve depleted myself to the point, where I have nothing left for my children or even myself. I hope my attendance of the co dependency support group will have some beneficial value to shift the roles.
I’ve already started adopting some of the suggestions. After spending a day carpooling the kids, grocery shopping and cooking all day I set down beside him on the couch  to catch a breath. He was playing on his phone as usual, self talking about loosing for the third time in a row. I knew what would come next, him pushing me away, cursing under his breath and leaving me to go to another room. Normally I would have jumped and ran after him. Set down beside him trying to engage him by talking and simultaneously massaging him to soothe him down. That worked maybe 15% out of 100%, yet I persevered. Waisting my energy, having him rage at me and feeling overwhelming feeling of helplessness and hopelessness. But not today, as he left upstairs and I hear him continuing to play there, I’m staying put where I was, realizing that by doing everything in my power to please him, Make Sunday as family oriented as possible I wanted to make it pleasant for myself too. Instead of looking at him as a prosecutor, look, you ruined another week for us, I’m just observing and registering the fact that he is disregulated. Again.
Another point I wanted to illustrate my fear regarding him committing the adultery is he is always talking about wanting “young blood” (as women over 35 don’t interest him physically), wanting a young kitty to play with, telling me about good looking women he sees and what he would like to do to them”. Constantly asking me “do you think I would cheat if I were at xwz and you weren’t present? Do you think I would sleep with a girl if I was high?” It’s as if he constantly wants to remind me that I’m not special or “the only one” so to speak. When I ask him about his motivations, he tells me that “because he trusts me so much, he openly speaks about his desires to me, and in some way it helps him not to cheat?.” To me, it’s completly mind blowing and doesn’t make any sense. First, he constantly talks about it, thus putting these ideas into my mind, then he expects me to let him go on his own. All the while knowing that he wants to sleep with other women, his partner is soliticing prostitutes, and he only engages in sexual relations on his own accord. Does it make sense to you in any way?

[snowglobe]

@babyducks, thank you so much, I’m extremely visual person, your river metaphor really did the trick for me today. I can only compare living next to Niagara Falls, some light humour here. What you described regarding not engaging and calmly being present resonates with me. I also realize that the control over helping him to stabilize my uBPDh’s emotions is a total sham. Kind of like gambler’s fallacy, I perceived that my actions had a direct impact. It might have been the case on some occasions. Meanwhile stripping me off of my dignity and self respect. At other times it either didn’t work at all, or he was self regulating himself, kind of like a placebo effect. I want to see what happens if I don’t try to fix anything, just keep on doing things around the house and engage with kids.

[snowglobe]

@formflier, thank you for clarification regarding the “fighter”, I generally try to avoid fighting. Regarding the “roles” in the company, you are correct. My husband produces the ideas, projects and creates vision for the company to continue surviving and thriving even. V.’s role is questionable. Over 10 year period since they were partners, V. Was more stable, when my uBPDh wanted to “close the company, drop a client, close offices in other countries” he always agreed but was postponing doing anything drastic. Over time things come back to equilibrium, and V. Been using it in his interaction with my uBPDh.

[Notwendy]

I can relate to your situation as fixer and enabler. That was me for decades. It started in my childhood as I mimicked my father's role with my BPD mother. I grew up in that Triangle and it was my normal. It would only make sense that I took this same pattern into my marriage and attracted someone who matched me in this role.

I also burned out being the one to do all the caretaking for the children, the home, my H and not myself. This was the start of me seeking counseling. I wasn't quite sure what was wrong in my relationship. Eventually my father's health began to fail and the dynamics in my FOO escalated. I decided I had enough of dysfunction. Something had to change. It started with me.

I recall feeling jealous of some of the women my H worked with and fearing he would cheat on me. He would also notice attractive women on TV and that upset me. Honestly, now, it doesn't bother me. One of the things I learned when learning about relationships is that we attract people who match us in some way and if we are dysfunctional, we are likely to attract dysfunctional people. I used to fear adultery because someone else would get his nice side, and I was getting the not so nice side, but now I realize the persona that strangers see is a mask- and if my H did go with someone else- she'd get the whole package too. It would be no different. I also realized that with my own caretaker/co-dependency traits, if I also did this- I'd end up with someone who matched my dysfunction. I knew I had to work on that- not because I wanted someone different, but because I recognized that it was my own FOO issues contributing to the problems in my marriage. What I emotionally felt as "normal" was  being a rescuer/enabler and I needed to change that.

Turning the focus of my emotional work has made all the difference. I am not so fearful of losing the relationship. I chose to stay and work on it, and of course I would feel sad if it didn't work out, but I don't have the same fear I had. I realize that we are both adults who can make choices and I can not control someone else's choices. Not being the emotional caretaker resulted in some rough times, but we have adjusted. It took me learning to self soothe when I see others upset- and allowing them to learn to self soothe as well. You are doing your H a disservice when you keep him from learning how to do this and not rely on you.

[snowglobe]

@Notwendy,
You just touched upon something that utterly and completely describes how I feel. I must admit that I get jealous and resentful when I see my uBPDh being super nice and super composed with other people. V., for instance can screw up a business order, delay the processing, be simply inactive and invalidating and there would be no consequence for his actions. My uBPDh will simply make a comment, quietly fume over that, and then come home to me and unleash the “ugly”. The same goes to his foo and extended family. Doesn’t matter how much his parents, or brother invalidate him, buff him off or cancel the plans at the last moment. He is always coming back and seeking their approval. When it comes to me, the expectations are so overwhelmingly high, that I feel like a gymnast that is constantly balancing on a rope. My behaviour, Attitude and actions have to be “perfect, swift and immediate”, according to him “when I ask you to jump, you have to say : how high”. He can accept everyone else in his life as being simply humans, can find explanation and justify the behaviour when people take an advanatage of him as V. Has been for 10 years now”. Yet, he is constantly seeking new ways to “punish me, teach me a lesson” in his exact words. What does it say about BPD dynamics when a person has a constant need to “punish”? E.g. last night after he went upstairs disregulated and I didn’t follow after him, he came down asking if I still needed to pick up “Kombucha” culture. It was getting dark, so he took the kids and we all went together. When we came back, he made sexual advances. I proceeded to put the kids to bed and take a shower, only to come back to bed and him saying: “I changed my mind, I’d rather masturbate then be with you” wth?. He continued playing, after loosing many games told me that “he won’t “fing” sleep next to me” and will go downstairs on the couch. Although I was disappointed and irritated, I wished him goodnight, and commanded myself to get some sleep. As I wouldn’t do any justice to kids or myself letting him continuously sway me from side to side. I woke up in the morning from him hot embrace, he didnt leave the bedroom and slept with me all night. I’m starting to suspect that he also exhibits bipolar traits, also very highly addictive personality traits. Regardless what the nature of addiction, it’s either gaming, hockey fan, political tv shows, once he engages in these behaviours he doesn’t stop. He is clueless or refuses to aknowledge that he is getting disregulated minute to minute basis. The impact on the kids who have no quality interaction with their dad months at a time. When he finally snaps out he expects all of us joyfully embrace his “homecoming”, only to see kids being fearful of him, me being cautious. He proceeds to tell me that he doesn’t love the kids, as he doesn’t connect with them. I can’t explain to 44 yo grown man that kids reaction is a coping from a behaviour and treatment that he is inflicting on him. I also don’t want to jump him and have “the best sex of his life” when he suddenly resides that I had enough “punishment”. To me it’s mind blowing that a person can even think of “exploring his wildest sexual fantasies” 2 days after he announces that he won’t stop until he sees me crying, broken down and miserable. I am seeking help from board advisors on how to address his needs to punish me and the kids and how to get him to employ the same measurement standards as he does with everyone else

[formflier]

I applaud you for not engaging and "fighting" when he was saying weird things about sex.

Even more important... not holding it over his head when he came back.

Like many of us, there are some complex... ."stubborn"... .deep seated... .long standing... .however you want to say it going on here.

This will take time... .for whatever goal you have.

What is your goal for the next month... .six months... .year?

FF

[Notwendy]

It helped me to understand the public persona, realize it wasn't the real him.
We all put on our best on a first date or at work. We don't show up in sweat pants at work and talk about personal things- I hope not. However, I think the difference between the persona and the rest of the person is greater with someone with a PD. There is the fear that they won't be loved for who they are.

I realized that my H and his co-workers are the persona. If something happened, it would be the same pattern, nice for a while , then the Dr. Jeckyl- Hyde situation- because we take our dysfunction with us. I also decided I didn't want the persona. He isn't real. The more I wanted my H to be his persona, the more I was telling him he could not be who he was.

I don't tolerate abuse though. I also am not as reactive to the verbal barbs.

I told my H, I don't want a perfect husband, I want a human. Humans have good and bad days. We all do.

I think it helps jealousy to realize that the public persona is just that- a public mask.

[Notwendy]

A poster here described BPD as an attachment disorder affecting the most intimate relationships. It made sense- as it seems the pwBPD is at their worst with the people closest to them.

It was heartbreaking to see my H be wonderful to just everyone except for me. He's wonderful to the kids, which is a good thing. Everyone at his job thinks he is amazing and he is.

Yet, at home, he painted me black, I got the silent treatment, or he'd have angry outbursts - sometimes over things he believed I did but I didn't. It was weird. This smart, rational man, who everybody loved was different with me. I assumed it was something about me.

I can understand your frustration at how your H treats V and not you. My H was (IMHO) overly tolerant of a person at work who I thought was hurting the business. My H was not like yours in terms of sharing his work world with me. He wanted me strictly out of it. It actually took evidence of that to make my H realize this person had done financial harm. It seemed he didn't question his partner, but I felt I had to justify every credit card charge.

It helped to understand that this is not about me, but about the way he is. I spent years trying to fix my marriage by reading books,( he didn't read any, even if I asked him to)  trying to change to make him happy, taking his accusations to heart- but it didn't seem to help. We went to an MC who focused on my co-dependency. I was angry at first- why me? Why not him? but I realized that she saw that I was motivated to work on myself. I think it has made a difference for me.

[formflier]

One thing I've learned, is that boundaries (very strong... clear ones) are needed when in a relationship with a pwBPD.  I've also learned that strong... .clear boundaries are helpful in all human relationships, even if they are not "needed".

This post/situation shows that a husband/wife team that is part of a business (that all their livelihoods depend on), yet only one of them is "really" in the business and the other is "de facto" in the business... .I could probably describe it more ... .is a place with very murky boundaries.

Two steps

1.  Clarify the boundaries
2.  :)ecide what enforcement is OK to uphold those boundaries.

Might as well get to the crux of it.  Are the boundaries worth shuttering the business over?  Or splitting it.

If not, need to go back to step one.

Ultimately there are several other human beings here that you can make requests of... . They may do what you ask... .or they may tell you to (fill in the blank)... .or things in between.

At the end of the day it will get back to a personal boundary with you and what kind of marriage you are ok with being in.  Yes, many steps between that boundary and the business, but they are connected and worthy of a great deal of thought and reflection on your part... .before proceeding any further.

Thoughts?

FF

[snowglobe]

This will take time... .for whatever goal you have.

What is your goal for the next month... .six months... .year?

FF

Dear @Formflyer,
Huh question took me by surprise. I realized although I want and need the change, ultimately I have no clear plan how to excecute it.
In terms of steps rather then goals that I have set for myself:
1. Learn how to practice empathy. I am terrible with that, I can sympathize till I’m blue in the face, yet empathy doesn’t come natural to me. My BPD upbringing wasn’t fostering or nurturing in terms of validating other people’s feelings, let alone my own. I want to learn how to do it more naturally, and would accept any advice regarding this topic.
2. Spend less time being at my uBPDh “back and call”, my availability feeds into the rescuer mode. By always being there, like a babysitter I’ve blurred the line even further. Perhaps sometimes he needs to learn how to depend on himself.
3. Focus on self improvement, specifically support group for codependency, if I learn how to function on my own, for the first time in 33 years, perhaps his trips wouldn’t create separation anxiety.
4. Start building and fostering relationships outside of my marriage. I realize that I have no support group, should the things go sour. All of my eggs are in one basket, he knows it and I know it. Therefore there is no healthy fear of loosing something, when you know that the other party isn’t going anywhere.
5. Learn how to NOT reinforce unhealthy behaviours, thus feeding into dysfunctional pattern. No foot massages, running out to buy him smokes (he’s been addicted to nicotine for as long as we have been together, part of my job description is to go and buy him sigarettes whenever he runs out), stick to him and try to engage in a conversation to fill in the void.
6. Very important one, probably the most- finish education and find the job. Every time he is disregulated and wants to punish me he says “go start looking for a job, and pay for your expenses” all the while knowing that I have my plate full with raising a family, cooking and cleaning, helping him with business and studying. He is telling me that not because we are short on the finances, but to “show me that I’m at the bottom of the food chain”. It’s done so my self esteem and self worth would be shuttered “go start cleaning the houses, go work in MC Donald’s and etc” all the while knowing that I have education and experience to obtain higher paid and more prestigious positions. I never want to hear that again, so I will get a job that I like and enjoy. The one that fits with my self image.

[snowglobe]

We went to an MC who focused on my co-dependency. I was angry at first- why me? Why not him? but I realized that she saw that I was motivated to work on myself. I think it has made a difference for me.

Please tell me more of how the process began and what were your goals? Did you pwBPD work with you, or was it a “sole project”?

[formflier]

I like your goals.  They are all things you can do... .your hubby is not required for any of them.

Solid...

FF

[Notwendy]

My journey with BPD didn't start with my marriage. My mother has BPD and I took on the family role of walking on eggshells and keeping her happy by being a doormat. I did the same thing in my marriage.

I didn't go to MC with a plan. I just couldn't focus on trying to fix my marriage. My father was elderly and ill, and I was grieving the impending and eventual loss of my father. That took my focus off walking on eggshells. and as you can imagine, things escalated. There is an extinction burst when things change, but this time, it just didn't work. I think my H noticed the change in me. I was no longer willing to be a doormat to my parents, or him, or anyone. I think it scared him but I wasn't acting like I was in order to scare him. It wasn't the push pull. I was not emotionally available for any drama.

I had begged him to try MC before, but he refused, insisting that MC leads to divorce. I think he was afraid the MC would encourage me to leave him. We found an MC who specialized in tough cases and trying to keep marriages together, so he reluctantly agreed.

She was brilliant. She knew that if she focused on him at all, he'd walk out ( he did this once before in MC) She put the focus on me. I was mad at first- after all- I was the scapegoat in my FOO and in my marriage and was this more of the same? She prescribed 12 step meetings - and I had been isolating myself because my H didn't like it if I went anywhere in the evenings,  but I had to as this was when the meetings were. I got a sponsor. I followed her lead. I credit this sponsor and the 12 steps for the changes I had to make with myself.

This risks a relationship. My H could have left, found another co-dependent person, but he is also invested in the marriage. I would also say that he isn't the full BPD my mother is- and is capable of making some changes. I had to take the lead in this, but as I became less co-dependent, things did get better over time.

They say people sometimes have to hit bottom to make a change. I was not "done" with my relationships, but I had had enough of the drama triangle and that motivated me to change. 

[snowglobe]

My journey with BPD didn't start with my marriage. My mother has BPD and I took on the family role of walking on eggshells and keeping her happy by being a doormat. I did the same thing in my marriage.

I didn't go to MC with a plan. I just couldn't focus on trying to fix my marriage. My father was elderly and ill, and I was grieving the impending and eventual loss of my father. That took my focus off walking on eggshells. and as you can imagine, things escalated. There is an extinction burst when things change, but this time, it just didn't work. I think my H noticed the change in me. I was no longer willing to be a doormat to my parents, or him, or anyone. I think it scared him but I wasn't acting like I was in order to scare him. It wasn't the push pull. I was not emotionally available for any drama.

I had begged him to try MC before, but he refused, insisting that MC leads to divorce. I think he was afraid the MC would encourage me to leave him. We found an MC who specialized in tough cases and trying to keep marriages together, so he reluctantly agreed.

She was brilliant. She knew that if she focused on him at all, he'd walk out ( he did this once before in MC) She put the focus on me. I was mad at first- after all- I was the scapegoat in my FOO and in my marriage and was this more of the same? She prescribed 12 step meetings - and I had been isolating myself because my H didn't like it if I went anywhere in the evenings,  but I had to as this was when the meetings were. I got a sponsor. I followed her lead. I credit this sponsor and the 12 steps for the changes I had to make with myself.

This risks a relationship. My H could have left, found another co-dependent person, but he is also invested in the marriage. I would also say that he isn't the full BPD my mother is- and is capable of making some changes. I had to take the lead in this, but as I became less co-dependent, things did get better over time.

They say people sometimes have to hit bottom to make a change. I was not "done" with my relationships, but I had had enough of the drama triangle and that motivated me to change. 

Wow, I’m so glad you shared this story with me. It describes my feeling of “always being a doormat and emotional caretaker to my mother”, the only way to placate her was to do everything as she wanted and quick, with a smile. I was never allowed to be sad, grieve or have an opinion of my own. When at my tender age of 7 yo, she has had a 2 months long affair, while on vacation, and came back to my dad, I was never allowed to mention the affair or her lover. While it became “our secret”, I was slowly decaying inside. Imagine such a young child, lying to her dad. My father sensed a change in her, as she told him that she didn’t love him anymore. Long story short, he manipulated and tricked me saying that “someone told him she had a special friend, and if I don’t tell him immidiatly, he would disown me”. I still remember vividly, sitting in his car, and telling him that they were just friends. Nothing happened. I thought I was protecting her, but I actually confirmed his suspicions. I won’t go into details describing how he almost killed her. While fighting, he threw her through a glass door. With many cuts to her body she took me and we left. I spent next 4 years of my life dealing with her emotional rollercoaster while they shared custody. I’ve gotten used to the dread feeling, and the fact that I was an object passed around like a torch. She leaned on me as if I was an adult, from her multiple abortions from different men, to paranoia about everyone being jealous of her and mistrust I was hanging on to the connection to other people. Oh, how I wished I had someone to talk to, someone who would listen to me, someone who did not say that if I did not do, behave as they say they would leave me. Ironically, my uBPDh is the most stable male person in my life

[Notwendy]

It has been written that we choose a romantic partner who matches our issues from our FOO's.

I spent years reading marriage books, trying to fix the marriage, but that didn't work well. I turned my focus on to working on me.

It wasn't about leaving or staying in the relationship ( there was not a danger of physical abuse or other issues that would have been deal breakers for me). It wasn't about the relationship at all. It was about emotional recovery from the dysfunctional behaviors I learned growing up.

Don't blame yourself- we had to learn them to survive in our families. The great part is that if we can learn them, we can unlearn them too.

Many posters here have reported being raised in dysfunctional families.

One 12 step program that has helped me is ACA. It isn't just for children of alcoholics. Many other dysfunctional families fit a similar pattern.

My mother also started to lean on me as a confidant when I was a young teen, telling me TMI about her relationship with my father. My father was an amazing dad to me, unless my mother was angry, then he would turn on me. My father would do anything to make my mother happy. I just wanted his approval and that was contingent on her moods. I just became a doormat to try to get his approval. I took this idea into my relationship with men, I thought I had to be a compliant doormat with them too.

But not anymore 

[formflier]

I want to echo Notwendy's comments about coming into adulthood with the "equipment" we have from childhood. 

Good on you for "seeing it" and for wanting to work on it.  Good on you for not "handing the issue" to someone else.  For owning your part.



 

FF

[Notwendy]

Sometimes it is a childhood pattern that is behind our fears. As adults, we can rationalize the situation but still feel it like we did as children.

One example for me is angry people. If someone is angry at me, I can think about it rationally- maybe I did something wrong, or maybe the person is having a bad day, maybe it has nothing to do with me. Yet, I can be trembling over it. The person may be angry at me, but they are not going to hurt me- and yet, I can feel shaken up about it in a larger way than the situation is.

Back to childhood- a time where anger was a larger threat. Children are small- and large angry people are terrifying. If my mother was angry- there was real trouble. Threat of my mother leaving was one of them. That is very scary to a child.

One of the reasons I walked on eggshells in relationships was fear of people I cared about being angry at me. The threat was not the same, but the fear was there. Many people just forgot about it and let it go long before I was able to stop being fearful.

I'm not trying to be a therapist here- I am not one and just guessing- but look at your childhood- your mother was doing things you fear your H might do- make bad decisions, cheat- and she nearly died. You felt responsible for her decisions and her feelings- something you are not ,and certainly not the job of a child. Yet, this was your "normal".

If your H did cheat, it would hurt- it would hurt anyone. I think you would handle it differently as an adult than you did as a child though. Yet, your fears may still be the ones you felt as a child and feel overwhelming.

[snowglobe]

@formflier,
Very peculiar incident happened yesterday. V. Called my cell, I didn’t hear the call so it went unanswered. When I noticed a missed call from V., I wasn’t sure if he dialed me by mistake, so I just sent him a text asking if he dialed me by accident. He called back saying he wanted to speak to me about uBPDh. Few days prior we’ve met with people in the similar business, who could potentially be an asset for my uBPDh’s business. He made a social connection and agreed to follow up with a meeting. When he came to work the following day and shared it with V. He went ballistic on him. Saying that he didn’t want my uBPDh discussing business with anyone, and V. was handling it. My uBPDh told him that he was paranoid and told him to mind his own business. That is what brought V. to calling me. He wanted me to influence my uBPDh, as he takes my advice when it comes to business decisions, more times then not. What an irony. I said that I could hear V.’s frustration, thus being empathetic, and proceeded to tell him that I also feel frustrated by him objecting to me coming along. We went back and fourth talking about boundaries (stage 1 of conflict, his definitely compete with mine). At the end of the conversation he said that he wouldn’t ever object to me coming, as long as my uBPDh doesn’t discuss business with other people.
Two things; one is V. Is scared that my uBPDh will find support and partnership outside of his relationship with V. I see it clearly. Two, he can’t be trusted, as he fought with me for so long, just to throw away his demands at a wimp of a threat of my uBPDh making new business connections.
At the end I decided to speak frankly with my uBPDh and treat him with respect, as an adult who is capable of making his own decisions. I told him about the conversation that took place, and that I think he should do whatever he thinks is right in this setuation. I won’t try to trade tokens to get what I want.
I’m disappointed in myself, I was supposed to attend the codependency support group, yet I was carpooling my d14 to her extracurricular activity and shopping while waiting for her.
I’m not sure whether it was incident with V. that contributed, or it’s gonna be like that forever now, but after playing him video game and cursing under his breath he left our family bed and spent the night on The couch. It’s strangely becoming our new normal. I don’t try to bring him back upstairs as he never agrees, so it’s fruitless attempt that creates an anxiety and fear. My sleep is later disturbed and I’m a wreck for a day to come. I’ve gained weight, lost the will to dress up, kind of coming back to that miserable place. I should have been at that support group last night, yet competing demands make it hard to follow through with actions.
What are your throughts on setuation with V.?

[snowglobe]

@NotWendy,
You are spot on with my childhood fears. When I didn’t listen to my uBPDm she threatened to “sell me to gypsies”, disown me and so on. Being a firsthand witness to her affair, domestic abuse, effective alienation of another parent left me emotionally crippled. I know I would survive, but irrational fear of my uBPDh walking out is distorting my reality. How do I stop being afraid?

[formflier]

For you

Handle one thing at a time with V. 

He called you... .handle that... and only that in a particular phone call.

Even better, don't try to resolve V's issue in the phone call.  "Hey V, let me get this straight.  I want to make sure I understand what you are asking, then I will have to give it some thought."

"Ok... it seems we agree I understand your question... .I'll give this some thought and get back to you tomorrow on it."

Slow things down.  Clarify.  One thing at a time.

How does this sound?

FF

[Notwendy]

It was working with a sponsor in the 12 step groups that helped me deal with fear ( and other things)

I have read posts where others didn't find these groups to be helpful. I think you have to work with them. The original Blue Book was written in a different era. Some of the language doesn't quite resonate with me.  However, my group is diverse- there are religious people, people of different religions, atheists, people in relationships ( heterosexual and same sex), single people, divorced people and all ages who have taken the material and worked at it.

Attending meetings is one part, but the part that made a lot of difference for me was working with a sponsor. She really turned the mirror on my stuff and held my feet to the fire. It wasn't comfortable. There were times I was irritated by the process. But then slowly the FOG started to lift.

When the MC first suggested the groups, I was baffled. Alcohol or drugs are not an issue in my relationship. I was afraid to go to the meetings. I didn't know if I would have anything in common with the people there, but we all have some things in common. There were some very wise people there ( rarely does anyone like everyone in a group).

I had also had counseling to deal with the issues I was raised with and facing in a relationship but the groups made a difference for me.

[snowglobe]

@formflier and @notwendy
I’ve gotten accustomed to suppressing my feelings so good, that I barely felt anything at all. It wasn’t until I met my uBPDh that I allowed myself to feel, and I through myself into these relationships with a full force. My uBPDh is without a doubt a very business savvy and intelligent person, capable of many great things. I made it my life’s mission to help him stand up straight and support him, when he wanted impulsively end good things, that were going for him. I’m very proud of his achievements. Somehow in all this process, I’ve lost a sight of myself. It isn’t just him that I’m looking after, and trying to please and stabilize. I have two children, One type A personality overachiever, another with speacial needs. In the midst of the daily splitting struggle, raising the family and my degree I feel overwhelmed. I caught myself thinking several times this week about my bio dad. Retired doctor living in US, who I undoubtedly wanted to impress all my life. Someone, who couldn’t love me after things went sour with my iBPDmother, it was easier to erase me, then deal with all the pain that I reminded him off. I thought about booking a ticket and flying out to see him. To talk to him, in A faint hope of repairing what is broken inside. Did speaking to your foo give you any relief?
I want to stop looking for this “father figure” who will love me unconditionally, as my dad is still alive.

[snowglobe]

@formflier, V. Called me again today to consult about his kid, as I’m in the process of finishing my degree that is related to the question. It was an excuse to test the waters, and I don’t have the energy to make things complicated. I’m slowly coming to realization that this triangle is not as it seems. Perhaps by uBPDh has been using V. as a scapegoat, so he could take a break. Instead, I’ve been chasing after him, constantly offering the ways to support him. I have this huge issue on my part, I can’t provide limited amount of support. I’m either all in, ready and willing to do all it takes to make my uBPDh’s life easier, or I’m out. I can’t seem to find the middle ground. When I continuesly invest my life’s resources into our relationship, but all I get is profanities and rejection in return, I can’t find the strength to interact with him, as if nothing is happening. I want to retreat.

[Notwendy]

Talking to anyone connected with my BPD mother brings no relief. If they are still in her circle they are enmeshed and tell me how wonderful she is ( whether they think so or not)

I know I idealized my father but he was a human with great qualities and weaknesses like any other human.

Talking to your father might give you closure- you'd see the real person - not the idealized person.

[snowglobe]

We are attending one of the important events together, with our children, he is splitting on me so bad, that all I see is his back turned to me or curt “do you see the kids”? I’m drawing in every ounce of my strength to rationalize and keep a half smile going for the sake of not making a spectacle of myself and not frighten the kids. The more I try to juice for him, MagSafe him, interact with him, the more he splits. If I don’t, he is always telling me that we “different people and need to divorce”. We have a family vacation planned in two weeks for s10 birthday to Disneyland. I am so defeated. I don’t know how to fix this setuation and make the vacation normal for the children. He gets to keep his face, by ignoring me and giving me completely silent treatment. Few nights ago s10 asked him why he is angry with me and isn’t talking. He replied that there is no reason. S10 was dismayed, he said “dad, it’s so weird, people get mad when something happens”. I’m so angry, hurt and frustrated. How do I stop contributing to this behaviour?

[Notwendy]

The ST feels crazymaking.

I had to just learn to ignore it. I recall a family weekend where my H spoke normally to the kids and not to me at all.

This also tended to happen at events like you described, and family vacations. I don't know why. Maybe being in the situation was a trigger.

I recall long car rides with him not speaking to me.

I learned to ignore it. It's a form of control and to some sources, a form of verbal abuse.

You can't make someone speak to you. If he chooses to not speak on the Disney trip- that is his choice. You may not be able to "make the trip normal" by your idea of normal.

But what a chance to make this wonderful for the kids. One way to manage a long trip without him talking to you is headphones. Listen to music, bring a book, occupy yourself. Bring toys and crayons and books for the kids to read. Books on tape are fun- you can all listen together. Daddy can stew if he wants or join in.

You won't be talking on rides. Have something to do for the long lines- small games, coloring books. Think about this- if you were alone with the kids at Disney- it would still be amazing because it is an amazing and fun place. Do not let his moods rain on your parade.

[formflier]

 The more I try to juice for him, MagSafe him, interact with him, the more he splits. If I don’t, he is always telling me that we “different people and need to divorce”. We have a family vacation planned in two weeks for s10 birthday to Disneyland. I am so defeated. I don’t know how to fix this setuation and make the vacation normal for the children.  

There is a lot here.

I would advise stopping whatever "juicing for him is".  Can you do something for you and your family.  Let him do... what he does.  Let him fix... what he does.

When he says you are two different people and need to divorce... you can agree that you are different people and let him know you will be sad if he chooses to divorce.  Nothing else needs to be said... .IMO.

Let your husband prepare himself for Disney... the important thing is you and your kids are ready... .you hubby will be... whatever he is.


I know this is not easy stuff... .but trust me... .there is an element of relaxation... when you let your hubby be your hubby.  For both of you.


FF

[snowglobe]

@formflier,
Thank you so much for your words, I will try to allow things to unfold as the will naturally. I’m semi- ready for the trip. When uBPDh splits on minute to minute basis it’s hard to know which way is up. Ironically enough we are a perfect match, pwBPD, incapable of real intimacy, brilliant but extremely impulve and irritable and deeply emotionally disturbed codependent, always ready to save the day. In one of the lessons I’ve learnt that it’s impossible to have real intimacy when it’s just one person working on it. That fairly accurately describes me being in a relationships with ... .me... or a  character that I invented. Wherever this road may lead, it’s impossible to keep these relationships running long term if he wants to leave

[formflier]

 When uBPDh splits on minute to minute basis it’s hard to know which way is up.  

Tell me more about this.  What does this actually look and sound like.

If you can give me some details on he said... she said.

Also... trip prep.  It's more than "letting things happen as they will... ."  I do think you should be deliberate about prepping for a good trip.

I do think you should directly ask your hubby what you can do to help him prep... .ask how he is doing prepping... .etc etc.

The key is to prep and have a good trip.  If BPDish stuff pops up... .don't let it further derail things... .as much as is up to you.

FF

[Notwendy]

I'm not sure what you mean by prepping for the trip. I can share what I do. Clothing- both for warm and cold weather as it can vary. Bathing suits and sunscreen- and whatever the kids like - such as swim goggles, small pool toys. If you are driving ,you can bring the bigger toys- floaties, etc.

Things to entertain them on the trip and waiting for rides. Snacks and juice boxes for the trip ( don't know if they allow them in the park). Things you may need.

Your Hubby can pack himself- he's an adult. If he forgets something there are stores in Florida.

For you- some good books, and headphones and music for the ST times if they happen.

I don't know what you mean by juicing and mag safe? Magnesium supplements? Those are calming. But he is an adult and can manage his own diet and supplements too. For sanity, I'd probably be packing these on the trip to be sure you have them.