I get pushed away, the more love I give

[Who even is she?]

 

I'm lost. I'm so confused... .I get pushed away, the more love I give, forgetting serious conversations, vilified to her friends, suffer through the repurcussions of addiction... she stops meds abruptly, refuses help, when the week before had asked me to marry her?
She has been diagnosed with major depression, however borderline traits are emerging and we're looking at a review of diagnoses. That's if she will even go to psych.
She can be rational, but those periods are brief. More often she's saying she feels unstable. She withdraws and will only answer questions with a yes or no. Her D&A counsellor told me last week that her mum is nuts and she's beginning to think her daughter is as well. She said she's only ever had 1 other client so difficult to talk to, despite having done the job for 40+ years.
I'm starting to feel like I don't know my partner anymore. I'm treated like I'm hated. Talked about behind my back... she seems to forget these 'unstable ' periods, that have caused me much pain... is my partner unwell, or just a bad, careless, psychopathic person?
She says she can't feel and that's why she uses drugs.
But other times, she can. Just not like I do? I ask if it's a relationship problem and she says no, it's her depression.
Man, what the hell am I to do?
Help

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Who even is she?]

Did I say the wrong thing Skip?

[soonbefree]

When we were breaking up, the more I tried to explain and reasoning with my uBPDexb the more he hated me. They speak a different language than us nons. You talk logic with ilogical people it just won't work, they use intense emotion instead.

[EdR]

I'm lost. I'm so confused... .I get pushed away, the more love I give, forgetting serious conversations, vilified to her friends, suffer through the repurcussions of addiction... she stops meds abruptly, refuses help, when the week before had asked me to marry her?
She has been diagnosed with major depression, however borderline traits are emerging and we're looking at a review of diagnoses. That's if she will even go to psych.
She can be rational, but those periods are brief. More often she's saying she feels unstable. She withdraws and will only answer questions with a yes or no. Her D&A counsellor told me last week that her mum is nuts and she's beginning to think her daughter is as well. She said she's only ever had 1 other client so difficult to talk to, despite having done the job for 40+ years.
I'm starting to feel like I don't know my partner anymore. I'm treated like I'm hated. Talked about behind my back... she seems to forget these 'unstable ' periods, that have caused me much pain... is my partner unwell, or just a bad, careless, psychopathic person?
She says she can't feel and that's why she uses drugs.
But other times, she can. Just not like I do? I ask if it's a relationship problem and she says no, it's her depression.
Man, what the hell am I to do?
Help

I am probably not the biggest expert around here, but since I don't see a lot of other replies, I thought I'd give my 2 cents.

For me the parts in bold are the most recognisable. But I do not know whether or not these traits could also result from a severe depression. Could be... .I just do not know for sure.

But regardless, when these are indeed signs of BPD I feel soonbefree gave some valuable information: in my experience trying to reason, get answers or at least communicate about these hurtful episodes only made things worse.
What did 'work' sometimes was just starting a conversation about some random other 'safe' topic. But even that could sometimes lead to another episode... And most of the times it just didn't feel right.

So I do not know how to handle this appropiately. That's why I posted my own question here as well. I hope someone here might give you the answer you're looking for!

All the best!

[once removed]

hi Who even is she? and

depression can render a person emotionally unavailable in a relationship. someone with BPD traits might have great difficulty understanding this let alone communicating it, but it sounds as though she is trying when she tells you shes unstable and cant feel.

and the hard thing is, you cant necessarily love a person out of that. and if i tell you "i cant feel", and you try to show your love, and i "cant feel" it, it reinforces those feelings. it might make me (her) feel less than, and hopeless.

how long have you been together?

[Who even is she?]

Thanks for responding guys. In just this many days I've been so all over the place, following her moods and not looking after myself. Its at the break up point.

I understand they speak another language, but how then do you communicate and have a stage relationship?

She was diagnosed in 2014 with major depression. Has not had an official BPD diagnosis, however her multiple psychs had documented additional queries of depersonalisation and adjustment disorder.

The night I posted this post, was the day before I was to pick her up from the airport after being away for 3 weeks. She was looking after her godson, was alone, stopped her meds abruptly and wasn't communicating normally. She said she didn't want to be 'anywhere' and had also hit cannabis hard from my understanding. Yes, there's substance abuse issues.

I asked her to have a 3 day break so she wouldn't be withdrawing so hard when I picked her up, as her aggression is full on when she's withdrawing.

In the meantime I'd booked a gp appointment for her to get a referral, with her consent.

I picked her up and the next 3 days I was snapped at, spoken to like she hated me... in between all this, making sexual advances. At the gps she acted as if she had no idea why she was there and put it on me.

[Who even is she?]

In addition to my post)

I'd realised she'd changed her passcode on her phone which usually means she's hiding something.
And she was, she had lied to me about going out the night before I was due to pick her up and had used dexamphetamine. She was never sober and I copped to full blown moods of withdrawal and comedown.

It makes no sense as to why she'd lie, when I'd encouraged her to get out of the house and have fun.

I'm so confused, hurt and lost.

She's now in full blown binge mode with no intent to stop and cares about nothing but her next high.

[Who even is she?]

We've been together nearly 2 years, I have 3 kids she's step parent to and four weeks ago when she was feeling 'stable' proposed to me.

[evanescent]

I hate to go there, but you really do need to look to your own future. Don't get hung up on history.

You mention that you have children, but she has addiction issues. Can you risk having them around that?

This is slightly tangental to that question, but even my uBPDw understood that me using marijuana for medical purposes was a risk factor to her keeping custody of my step-children until I acquired a permit for it. You don't say if you have custody, but are you prepared to risk losing them over that issue?

Side note: Many BPDs are also struggling with attention deficit and the dextroamphetamine may be something that she self medicates with for that. My own wife was less anxious and certainly more measured when she took it for her diagnosed ADD. It is possible the marijuana is a substitute for the anxiety reduction she gets from the other when it is not available.

[once removed]

it isnt that she speaks another language.

its that people with BPD traits, or generally highly sensitive people use emotional reasoning, and their emotions overwhelm them. the communication tools directly to the right, learning how and when to validate, and how to generally not be invalidating, can really help.

any update? whats going on at the moment?

[Who even is she?]

Update: in the space of 3 weeks she's said she doesn't know what she wants. I try to use the tools I've read about when communicating with a BPD sufferer;how are you feeling, do you feel capable of making this decision or are you acting impulsively? Usually, she will say she feels unstable, unable to make wise choices and is acting impulsively. My response is to sit with the feeling, then reassess when feeling more stable.
This usually works well and things settle fairly quickly into functional living. She'd been detoxing for a week, then out f the blue, 9pm Wednesday night said she was leaving to see her cousin and would be back before midnight. She relapsed that night. It was our daughters birthday. She was meant to drive the kids to school the next morning, came home at 1am high and I was then in a position where my hands were tied, as I'd be leaving for work at 5am. So I made it clear she had broken boundaries. I asked for space and am now painted black. She is trying to figure out yet again if she wants the relationship. It's her birthday today and I can't wish her a happy birthday because she wants no contact.
How is it that 3 days ago life was normal?

[once removed]

I was then in a position where my hands were tied, as I'd be leaving for work at 5am. So I made it clear she had broken boundaries.

"you will take the kids to school" is an agreement, not so much a boundary. you can tell someone what is acceptable and unacceptable behavior, at that point they can and will respond how they may.

from the article:

The Idea of "Setting Boundaries" is Misleading
The terminology of "setting boundaries" is misleading and often mistaken to mean "giving an ultimatum." It is true that issuing ultimatums can be part of this life skill and at times, very necessary, however it's only one aspect of this life skill.

When we speak of the boundaries we are really speaking about our personal values and our need to get them in focus and live with more conviction. This is a lifestyle, not a quick fix to an interpersonal squabble.

This is an important point that is often overlooked.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

I asked for space and am now painted black. She is trying to figure out yet again if she wants the relationship. It's her birthday today and I can't wish her a happy birthday because she wants no contact.
How is it that 3 days ago life was normal?

asking for space isnt inherently bad. but in this case it was likely perceived as punishment and shutting out. this is particularly risky for someone addicted to drugs who recently relapsed. i did that repeatedly in hopes of sending a message that was never received. its an approach that gets messy fast.

there are always going to be tremendous ups and downs in this relationship, give or take periods of normalcy, but normalcy wont tend to be predominate. what is necessary is having the tools and skills to handle conflict as it comes, and to not be effected by it, and to make the necessary lifestyle changes to give yourself peace and space.

[Who even is she?]

Sorry, I should clarify; the boundary is about family responsibilities... .if you know you have to drive the kids anywhere, you must have drugs out of your system for 12 hours prior to.
Does that make sense?
The consequence of that broken boundary is me needing space to figure out what best practical way to deal with the broken boundary.

So is this a boundary or have I screwed it ip myself? 

[Who even is she?]

My head is so full. I really need help :-(

[once removed]

if you know you have to drive the kids anywhere, you must have drugs out of your system for 12 hours prior to.
Does that make sense?

it does.

The consequence of that broken boundary is me needing space to figure out what best practical way to deal with the broken boundary.

it is punitive, however, and will be perceived as punishment.

have I screwed it ip myself? 

this didnt make or break anything. its okay.

She is trying to figure out yet again if she wants the relationship. It's her birthday today and I can't wish her a happy birthday because she wants no contact.

can you tell us more about how this went down, what you said, what she said, particularly about her wanting no contact? thats going to inform next moves.

long term, how were things going between the two of you while she was detoxing?

[Who even is she?]

Thank you so much for your reply. I will have to make a cuppa before I tell you  the rest of it went...

[Who even is she?]

Ok, on my tea break I sent a text to her saying that I would organise everything for her BBQ (cleaning, food etc) and that I needed space until at leadmst then. She replied, don't worry about the BBQ anymore. 3am next morning, she sent a pro dug use link as a pm on Facebook to me. This made me very upset and I asked if she'd lost her mind, said not to send me articles like that, that she had already succeeded in pushing me away.
Ff next day, called her late arvo, she was very cold and rude. Asked how she was, she said she felt empty then asked to call me back after she smoked some weed. Obviously I said no. Asked how her psych appointment had gone the day before, she said her psych was ok with her smoking weed if that's the only way she feels she can function. Said that drug use was more important to her than the relationship ATM and that her counsellor thinks I expect too much of her, because she's so unwell right now. Said she can't take responsibility and was reconsidering being in the relationship because she wants to use drugs. She said she isn't sure what she wants with me anymore, she doesn't know what she's doing or anything, she needs a break. To consider what she wants. Because she doesn't want to screw us up because of her problems. I asked her if she was sabotaging and she said she's not sure but she thinks so. She asked if we could talk about it another time and we made a time for tomorrow. I said that I can't do another break feeling like I don't know where I stand for months on end so she would have to let me know tomorrow. I slept on this and woke up feeling pretty awful and feeling like it might be too much pressure to put on her too quickly, so I said that I've reconsidered and also think it's a good idea. The last break we had was this time last year, and she went on a 3 month bender, breaking up with me Xmas day. Then a week later said that it would be until she gets better.

The detox lasted 9 days. The week prior to that was minimal use and she was very respectful when using (not using if I'd had a particularly bad day, being mindful of my feelings). This particular week was pretty horrendous because she was withdrawing. She was very short tempered and snappy and it was very hurtful, but she wanted to stay with me to not use. So I allowed it. The 9 days sober were interesting. First few days, one big craving she told me about, I talked her through it. She made a choice not to use. She was trying really hard at this time to be a good partner and functioning really well (compared to the majority of the time). We were very close and last Sunday we had planned to do work around the house and she said she wanted to go out with a friend, out of the blue. I asked if she could wait for a more appropriate time, and was then annoyed because her friend cancelled anyway. Monday, she was very distant, Tuesday, the same. I'd asked what was up, she said she felt like she had no direction. I said I was feeling insecure for hearing that as I'd like to think we were heading in the same direction, she said it was nothing to do with me. Wednesday, daughters birthday, I asked her to take one of her coffee cups out and asked the entire family if they would be able to pitch in a bit more as I was struggling keeping up with housework and working, plus caring for everyone. I went to bed, next minute, she's leaving to see a friend. Relapse.
The detox was great but would've been taxing. There was a lot of sorting through problems so it would've been far from relaxing.

[once removed]

Who even is she?,

if you want to stop the bleeding, you need to drop the space and telling her she has pushed you away, or that her offhand statements are making you insecure.

you need to try to see this through a drug addicts mind. she needs unconditional love and support, and listening. its one of your biggest relationship hurdles now and long term. it needs to be where you focus your efforts.

can you do that? it might be a good idea to get in touch with a hotline or a counselor, or whatever professional is working with her, as to how you can best support her.

[Who even is she?]

Basically I have to remove myself emotionally.

[once removed]

no.

its incredibly hard living with a drug addicted loved one. you need support (from someone other than her. shes not in a position to support anyone including herself). you need to be able to support her, as well.

supporting a drug addicted loved one is not intuitive. its often instinctive to punish bad behavior or withdraw, to give some tough love and send a message. but this just isolates and shames the addict which drives more drug behavior.

we cant make things better until we stop making them worse. shes got to get through this, it is the major obstacle in improving the relationship. unfortunately you cannot do that for her, she has to want it, but you can support her in getting there.

[Who even is she?]

I really don't know what the hell im doing. During a relapse I call drug helplines. I don't really feel like I'm getting any direction in knowing how to do this? Is there anything I am doing right?

[once removed]

i understand. this is extraordinarily tough to navigate. the thing about this board and your circumstances is that when there is bleeding, the first step is to make it stop. the second is to generally adjust your mindset and approach. we have your best interests at heart, and it is not to beat you up, but to help you stabilize things and stop the bleeding.

i dont know how much experience outside of this that you have with a drug addicted person, but im sure that its a new and difficult world. 

laying down the law with a drug addicted person is one option, but it has little likelihood in changing their behavior. you can say "i wont tolerate x y and z", and the odds are pretty likely that is what they will do. if you have zero tolerance for any and all drug use, thats okay, but its not a position conducive to improving conditions, and its a position that you have to be prepared to back up.

another option is wishing that she would stop using drugs, but Radically Accepting (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=89910.0) that she is a drug addict and will always struggle, to lesser or greater degrees. that will take adjustments in lots of areas on your end.
none of this means removing yourself emotionally. it does mean realistic expectations, and new/different strategies for coping.

and if thats your goal, then your role should be a supportive one. calling drug lines is a good move. what have they told you? generally speaking, its a good idea to arm yourself with both knowledge and support. this stuff will naturally take a toll on you. having a good therapist or counselor with knowledge and experience to help you stay grounded and advise you would be a really good idea if you havent done so already.

all of that aside, the two of you are currently separated and you want to save your relationship. i would start with a heartfelt communication that communicates to her that you want to support her, and asks her how you can best do that. how do you think that would go down? are you interested in trying it? we can work it out here.

[Who even is she?]

I'm not sure how much experience I have tbh, I do know that I have had a drug problem when I was very young that lasted only for 2 years because I changed my life by choice, however I was very very young and had no responsibilities or partner, so it was very different. I work in health, so I do know fundamentals of addiction. I have also had a previous encounter of. Person that was an addict in recovery and I left that relationship when relapse was imminent.
My current partner was a previously healthy well adjusted individual that had some trauma in 2013 and is now a different person. I see glimpses of what I knew that keep me hopeful, but I realise this may never change and accept that. I do get some criticism for accepting 'someone like this' as my partner... some people question why I would want to damage myself and my kids by accepting this in my life, some have asked me to ask myself what it is that's wrong with me, to stay in such a traumatic relationship... these criticisms confuse the hell out of me and make me doubt myself. At the end of the day, the way I see it, is that I love her and have compassion for what she is going through at this point in time. The grass is not greener, I'm a fighter and I value allowing your partner to complete their personal journeys without trying to interfere on that path.
The most I've got out of contacting the helplines has been to make boundaries. Always, that is the only way to survive a relationship with an addict (so I'm told). Deliver consequences... .so you could understand now why I'm so confused as to where to go from here... the idea you mentioned about radical acceptance is something I have engaged in with a lady in NZ who offers support. We chatted a few times and I was feeling great about it and very in control of just letting go, however by the third session, she asked for $3000 to continue the counselling and when I did that was something completely out of my league, her retort was "clearly, your not ready to change and help yourself".

[Who even is she?]

I have asked and regularly ask her what it is I can do to support her. Her response is both; keep doing what your doing and/or just look after yourself and the kids.

I've also heard that if I don't lay down the law, it's me enabling her addiction... .

[Who even is she?]

On a personal level, my biggest struggle is hearing the words "I don't know if I want to be with you anymore". Which changes to the exact opposite when she's more stable and is using to a much lesser degree.

[Who even is she?]

And the way I feel about my biggest struggle, is well if she doesn't know what she wants, why am I wasting my time, energy and tears?

[SurvivingBP17]

While this isn't a site dedicated to drug abuse, I can try to give some insight from my own personal experience with addiction.  I'm an alcoholic and was active in my addiction for 9 of my 12 years of marriage to a uBPDw. My w has told me how it was to live with me and the, only thing that ever got to me was for her to pack up the kids and leave.  Her major reasoning was not just the mental anguish I caused her, but more so the threat I posed to our children.  She told me that she could no longer allow them to watch me destroy myself. Despite a suicide attempt, being admitted to the substance abuse unit of a mental ward, and three months of rehab, she never came back.  Only after she was sure that I was no longer a threat did she slowly let me back into her world.  I actually applaud her for showing the strength to walk away.  If she hadn't I probably never would have gotten sober. 

Please understand that I am not telling you to take her same path.  I do urge you to set boundaries to protect yourself and your kid. As dysfunctional as we addicts can be, somehow we do understand that our actions do have consequences.  For me I knew that drinking and driving could get me thrown in jail, or even worse, kill me or someone else; I did it anyway.  But, when they left and the realization that they were gone hit me, the mental anguish was more powerful than the obsession. Enough so, that I was able to seek help.

I feel for you though.  You have to battle two difficult tasks at once. With solutions that may stand in opposition of each other.  From my viewpoint I think tackling the addiction should come before dealing with the BPD.

[once removed]

From my viewpoint I think tackling the addiction should come before dealing with the BPD.

this is typically the approach that a therapist or doctor will take. in the same way, i think it should come before the other issues and conflict in your relationship.

I do get some criticism for accepting 'someone like this' as my partner... some people question why I would want to damage myself and my kids by accepting this in my life, some have asked me to ask myself what it is that's wrong with me, to stay in such a traumatic relationship... these criticisms confuse the hell out of me and make me doubt myself. At the end of the day, the way I see it, is that I love her and have compassion for what she is going through at this point in time. The grass is not greener, I'm a fighter and I value allowing your partner to complete their personal journeys without trying to interfere on that path.

just to be clear, this is not a place for criticism of the intensely personal decision to stay, its to get support behind your efforts, and we will be in that fight with you every step of the way.

The most I've got out of contacting the helplines has been to make boundaries. Always, that is the only way to survive a relationship with an addict (so I'm told). Deliver consequences... .

boundaries are essential. but they are about us. we dont use boundaries to change someone elses behavior.

consequences are essential too. but theres a big difference between delivering consequences (punishment) and letting her experience the natural consequences of her actions.

an example would be not trusting or relying on her to get the kids to school, and making adjustments.

but when i mention the space stuff, and telling her that shes pushing you away, again, youve got to understand this through the mind of someone with high rejection sensitivities, who struggles greatly to cope. the message that she receives (not necessarily the message you are intending to send) is that if she uses, if she messes up, love will be taken away from her and she will be rejected. not only is that a tremendous amount of pressure, but it puts you in the middle of the drama triangle; it makes you the persecutor, rather than her support. its an exhaustive and losing battle for you. as her romantic partner, she needs from you a strong rock to lean on. not an enabler, but a supporter, which i understand is a difficult line to walk. thats why i keep recommending you get professional help of your own. you need guidance, and you need emotional support. you got burned by the lady that asked for 3000 dollars and then judged you. we wont do that here, and a real professional wont either. we know that this stuff is not intuitive, and its a journey.

On a personal level, my biggest struggle is hearing the words "I don't know if I want to be with you anymore". Which changes to the exact opposite when she's more stable and is using to a much lesser degree.

And the way I feel about my biggest struggle, is well if she doesn't know what she wants, why am I wasting my time, energy and tears?

Radical Acceptance: she is drug addicted. she is majorly depressed. she has BPD traits. who, in that state, knows what they want, or feels direction or purpose in life? it isnt a personal attack on you. its a common feeling among people in those circumstances.

so you asked earlier if all of this means removing yourself emotionally. ill reiterate that the answer is no. you have emotions, and you need a good, supportive outlet for them.

however, she cannot be that outlet. she is in no position right now to be a supportive and equal partner. its a bit like if most of my friends make me laugh, and one of my friends got depressed and stopped telling jokes. do i get mad at him for that? do i expect him to make jokes? ideally, i support my friend. if i want to hear jokes i go to my other friends.

from our article here: https://bpdfamily.com/content/what-does-it-take-be-relationship

Strength: It takes a great deal of strength and emotional stability to be in a BP relationship and not be emotionally injured by it.  A person in a weak emotional state, who feels wounded/abused, or depressed is likely to be consumed by the relationship, confused by the intense rages and idealization, and finding their self worth in decline.  If you chose this path, you've got to be very strong and very balanced.

Realistic Expectations: A person with BPD is emotionally underdeveloped and does not have "adult" emotional skills - especially in times of stress.  If you are in this type of relationship it is important to have realistic expectations for what the relationship can be in terms of consistent respect, trust and support, honesty and accountability, and in terms of negotiation and fairness, or expectations of non-threatening behavior.  It is important to accept the relationship behavior for what it is - not hope the person will permanently return to the idealization phase, not accept the external excuses for the bad behavior, and not hope that changing your behavior to heal someone else.

Accept the Role of "Emotional Caretaker": According to Kraft Goin MD (University of Southern California), "borderlines need a person who is a constant, continuing, empathic force in their lives; someone who can listen and handle being the target of intense rage and idealization while concurrently defining limits and boundaries with firmness and candor".  To be in this type of relationship, you must accept the role as emotional caretaker - consistently staying above it.

Maintaining routine and structure
Setting and maintain boundaries
Being empathetic, building trust, even in difficult times
Don’t tolerate abusive treatment, threats and ultimatums
In crisis, stay calm, don’t get defensive, don't take it personally
Don’t protect them from natural consequences of their actions - let them fail
Self-Destructive acts/threats require action

please read or reread the entire article, not just the part i quoted. its very important to have a full understanding of what is required and the stakes here. you have a lot on your plate. none of it will be easy. we are here to help.

[Who even is she?]

Spoke to her briefly last night. Basically, she doesn't respect me because of what I tolerate from her. She doesn't believe my lie is genuine because she is unloveable, so I must be screwed up to want the relationship.

Confusing.

[Who even is she?]

Typo *love (Freudian slip)