Extreme projection practiced by uBPD

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I had a discussion with my uBPD wife last night.  She wanted to re-discuss all the things that I did wrong to ruin our relationship.  She recently has entered a very angry mode b/c she recently went through my father's private papers and discovered an email that I sent to him 16 years ago in which I harshly criticized her.  She also found some notes he made saying that she is sick and is borderline.  We are married for 17 years and we have had issues b/c I had complained to my parents about her.  In reality, she managed to confirm to my family that she has major issues.  I made things worse b/c I didn't practice SET and fought with her, not understanding what was going on.    I've made great strides b/c of this website.  

So in our discussion, I think did a very good job of practicing SET.  Not perfect, but very good.  So she wants me to apologize again for everything that I've done wrong.   I've admitted guilt and I've apologized for these things multiple times.  I told her that I don't want to apologize again.  I feel like it's giving in to some of her worst behavior.  She says she doesn't "feel" like I've apologized and says that I'm withholding emotions from her.  By practicing SET, I think I'm trying to make an emotional connection, but it's as if I'm speaking another language.  All she hears is me saying that I think that I've done nothing wrong. Then she sends me a whole bunch of emails saying that I'm emotionally distant and withholding emotions and I never say anything loving.  The fact is she's the one that has nothing loving to say to me.  In these conversations, she is in angry mode 100% of the time and blames me CONSTANTLY for our problems.  She has nothing ving or even nice to say to me.  If I ever bring up anything that she did wrong, then she accuses me of blaming her for my behavior, when I explicitly separate my bad behavior as wrong.  It's as if she is hearing a completely different voice from mine.  It's very frustrating.  Question is, should I apologize to her again?  To me, it's like throwing more of my limited energy down into a bottomless pit.  Any advice would be appreciated.

I should add that even when things are peaceful, she NEVER touches me or kisses me or let's me be physical in a way that is intimate (e.g. - holding hands, cuddling, kissing on the lips, sitting side by side).  She never says "I love you" to me even though I say it to her all the time.  I feel like she's trying to shame me and sends the message that I'm no good when it's really her abnormal feelings.

[startrekuser]

I had a discussion with my uBPD wife last night.  She wanted to re-discuss all the things that I did wrong to ruin our relationship.  She recently has entered a very angry mode b/c she recently went through my father's private papers and discovered an email that I sent to him 16 years ago in which I harshly criticized her.  She also found some notes he made saying that she is sick and is borderline.  We are married for 17 years and we have had issues b/c I had complained to my parents about her.  In reality, she managed to confirm to my family that she has major issues.  I made things worse b/c I didn't practice SET and fought with her, not understanding what was going on.    I've made great strides b/c of this website.  

So in our discussion, I think did a very good job of practicing SET.  Not perfect, but very good.  So she wants me to apologize again for everything that I've done wrong.   I've admitted guilt and I've apologized for these things multiple times.  I told her that I don't want to apologize again.  I feel like it's giving in to some of her worst behavior.  She says she doesn't "feel" like I've apologized and says that I'm withholding emotions from her.  By practicing SET, I think I'm trying to make an emotional connection, but it's as if I'm speaking another language.  All she hears is me saying that I think that I've done nothing wrong. Then she sends me a whole bunch of emails saying that I'm emotionally distant and withholding emotions and I never say anything loving.  The fact is she's the one that has nothing loving to say to me.  In these conversations, she is in angry mode 100% of the time and blames me CONSTANTLY for our problems.  She has nothing ving or even nice to say to me.  If I ever bring up anything that she did wrong, then she accuses me of blaming her for my behavior, when I explicitly separate my bad behavior as wrong.  It's as if she is hearing a completely different voice from mine.  It's very frustrating.  Question is, should I apologize to her again?  To me, it's like throwing more of my limited energy down into a bottomless pit.  Any advice would be appreciated.

I should add that even when things are peaceful, she NEVER touches me or kisses me or let's me be physical in a way that is intimate (e.g. - holding hands, cuddling, kissing on the lips, sitting side by side).  She never says "I love you" to me even though I say it to her all the time.  I feel like she's trying to shame me and sends the message that I'm no good when it's really her abnormal feelings.

[Cat Familiar]

This sounds like Classic BPD stuff. I'm very sorry.

You can never fill up their bottomless pit of need. Apologies should be given once and only for real, not imagined slights.

I get a slightly different version of this from my husband: "You don't appreciate me."

I go out of my way to thank him and tell him how valued and important he is, but it's never enough.

And after a while, it just becomes an empty exercise for me to try to give him some sort of emotional succor.

If I step outside of my paradigm and try to look at this relationship objectively, he's the one who seems not to appreciate anything I do for him.

[I_Am_The_Fire]

I agree with CatFamiliar about their "bottomless pit of need".

she says she doesn't "feel" like I've apologized

From my experience with my ex, I think that he is very insecure in himself. I believe he thought he needs an apology when in reality I think he wants me to make him feel better about himself. (Note: he still does this every so often despite our being divorced now). I was co-dependent and managed his emotions for years. Then I stopped once I realized it (thanks to therapy). Any sincere genuine apology I made was never enough, though. He never accepted them. It was almost as if I had never made an apology the way he acts. So that's why I think it's not about the apology or what we did. It's about how they feel and they don't know how to make themselves feel better. That's my theory anyway. This may (or may not) apply to your wife as well.

it's as if I'm speaking another language

That's exactly how I feel whenever I try to talk to my ex about the kids or anything at all. It really does feel this way to me. I think it's because their reality is different than ours. We don't have a common frame of reference on most things. My ex also reacts very emotionally and in the moment.
 

saying that I'm emotionally distant and withholding emotions and I never say anything loving

Yep. I've heard this one way too many times from my ex. I think it could be projection in your case.

Question is, should I apologize to her again?

Personally I don't think it would help if you did. It feels like a band-aid approach and not dealing with the root cause of her feelings. She could very well be projecting her feelings of shame onto you.

[startrekuser]

Thanks I_Am_The_Fire.  I agree with everything you said.  She wants me to make her feel better, but there is not much I can do.  Sometimes I can calm her down temporarily, but that's about it.

[startrekuser]

My wife with u/BPD insists that apologize all over again for all my offenses against her.  I said no and she threatened to move out b/c she says we have no marriage.  I finally gave in and said I would apologize and she was saying last night that I only gave in b/c she said would be moving out.  It's true, but I won't admit that.  I can't take the stress of her moving out.  It's so draining.  When she asks why I don't want to apologize AGAIN, what do I say to her?  I can't think of anything I can say that won't trigger her rage.  It's a terrible way to live, but what can I do?  I don't want to subject our daughter to divorce and turmoil while she's still living in our home.

[Donalith]

I feel for you.

In my opinion, those with BPD are looking for your apology to "magically make everything right" and it doesn't so the obvious answers is to continue to get apologies until everything is right again.

Perhaps think about a few things:

What example are you setting for your daughter by continually attempting to manage your wife's emotions?
What example are you setting by continuing to live a "terrible way to live" in a marriage filled with such tension?
BPD personalities cannot be fixed externally without internal motivation so this situation is unlikely to get better and fairly likely to get worse. Is this what you want your daughter to learn to model for love and life?

Perhaps think about what you are subjecting your daughter to instead of a healthy relationship. You've already stated you can't take the stress of moving out so what do you "think" you should do about it?

Where do you see this marriage heading?

[Cole]

She wanted to re-discuss all the things that I did wrong to ruin our relationship.

Agree with the others. Tell her that if it has already been discussed, then you will not discuss it again. And hold that boundary no matter how hard she pushes.

She will get mad. Things will get worse for a while and she will push even harder. But once she realizes she cannot bully or force you into the circular conversations, things will slowly get better as she moves through the extinction burst.

I know because I am there right now. I refused to take part in the circular conversations anymore. I refuse to go on a rampage against anyone who she perceives as having done something mean to her. I refuse to apologize for things I already apologized for. And I refuse to take responsibility for her feelings.

And she moved out. Most of her things are still here, so this was intended as an "I'll show you" move, much like a child holding their breath because you will not buy a box of Fruity Pebbles. Things have gotten worse, but I firmly believe she is realizing she made a mistake and that the drama isn't worth what she is losing. 

Hope this helps. Live long and prosper.

[Cole]

Agree with the others. Tell her that if it has already been discussed, then you will not discuss it again. And hold that boundary no matter how hard she pushes.

She will get mad. Things will get worse for a while and she will push even harder. But once she realizes she cannot bully or force you into the circular conversations, things will slowly get better as she moves through the extinction burst.

I know because I am there right now. I refused to take part in the circular conversations anymore. I refuse to go on a rampage against anyone who she perceives as having done something mean to her. I refuse to apologize for things I already apologized for. And I refuse to take responsibility for her feelings.

And she moved out. Most of her things are still here, so this was intended as an "I'll show you" move, much like a child holding their breath because you will not buy a box of Fruity Pebbles. Things have gotten worse, but I firmly believe she is realizing she made a mistake and that the drama isn't worth what she is losing. She has already admitted that her feelings are hers to deal with, not mine, and that she tends to be over sensitive. 

Hope this helps. Live long and prosper.

[schwing]

Hi Startrekuser,

She says she doesn't "feel" like I've apologized and says that I'm withholding emotions from her.  By practicing SET, I think I'm trying to make an emotional connection, but it's as if I'm speaking another language.  All she hears is me saying that I think that I've done nothing wrong. Then she sends me a whole bunch of emails saying that I'm emotionally distant and withholding emotions and I never say anything loving.  The fact is she's the one that has nothing loving to say to me.  In these conversations, she is in angry mode 100% of the time and blames me CONSTANTLY for our problems.  

Emotionally speaking, you are speaking different languages.  You see, you can apologize, accept that you did something wrong, and this does not make you a worthless person.  You can accept your mistake, learn from your mistake, and change your behavior in the future so that the mistake is not made again (or at least happens less often).  For someone with BPD, accepting that you did something wrong can lead to some massive amounts of self-devaluation.  From a splitting/black&white thinking perspective, by accepting that you did something wrong, makes you a worthless person with no redeeming value.  And the devaluation persists until you project it away.  And by projecting, you believe that the other person messed up and that you were only the victim.  From a splitting/black&white thinking perspective, you do not learn from your mistakes because they are never your mistakes.

She has nothing ving or even nice to say to me.  If I ever bring up anything that she did wrong, then she accuses me of blaming her for my behavior, when I explicitly separate my bad behavior as wrong.  It's as if she is hearing a completely different voice from mine.  

From a splitting/black&white thinking perspective, only one person is wrong.  The other person is right. It's not that she cannot hear what you are saying.  It's that the way she processes the situation is completely different from you.

It's very frustrating.  Question is, should I apologize to her again?  To me, it's like throwing more of my limited energy down into a bottomless pit.  Any advice would be appreciated.

It is a bottomless pit.  In the case of my family, the siblings and father take turns being the scapegoat for my BPD mother.  She devalues one person for a while.  Then she devalues another person.  Lately it's been my father who's taking the brunt of the devaluations.  And I try to explain it to my father that this is the way she processes her emotions without ever bring up mental illness or disorders (which I don't think he wants to hear).  I just describe it in a general way and say the "some people" handle their emotions in this fashion.

It's difficult when you are the main person bearing the brunt of it.  I think your best option is to keep reminding yourself that this behavior is because of her disorder.  And it wouldn't be a bad idea to get professional support to help maintain your emotional well being.

Best wishes,

Schwing

[startrekuser]

Hey, thanks everybody for the support.   A couple of things I have to say:

1.  She leaves and goes to Airbnb's and it costs a lot of money.  That's the biggest source of my stress.  In addition, people in my community are always asking me where she is and it's very embarrassing to have to explain.  I make up stuff to cover for her.  I don't think that I should be announcing our issues to the world, except to qualified confidants, which I do have.  I have a friend whom I speak to.  He's very helpful.

2.  Question for you all:  Is it pointless for me to say to her that blaming is not productive in a relationship, but finding solutions is productive?  In other words, should I point out that her behavior is damaging and pointless?

[startrekuser]

I'm going to seek out professional support.

[schwing]

1.  She leaves and goes to Airbnb's and it costs a lot of money.  That's the biggest source of my stress.  In addition, people in my community are always asking me where she is and it's very embarrassing to have to explain.  I make up stuff to cover for her. 

My mother exhibits a similar behavior.  She would get in her car and drive off on some excursion; where she'd go she'd keep to herself.  Then she'd come home.  I interpret this as an example of "frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment."  As I see if, when she started to experience the (imagined) fear that she would be abandoned (by someone in the family), so'd go and be the one who abandons first.  Even if that "abandonment" only lasted for an hour or two.  In her mind, if she left first, then she avoided this imagined abandonment.

I wonder if that is what your wife is doing with her Airbnb trips.

Why do they imagine abandonment? I believe it is because at the root what caused them to develop this disorder is a traumatic experience of abandonment (or betrayal or denigration).  And they experience this like a PTSD.  Only when they did experience this trauma, they didn't have adult emotional resources to cope -- so they developed these other disordered means of coping. But these other means, theses maladaptive coping mechanisms, never help them get over the original trauma.

And so they spend the rest of their lives avoiding the things that trigger them to experiences these feelings associated with their original trauma.  Only now these memories are buried so deep and their "coping" methods so well practiced that they don't understand why they do what they do, only that they have to do it.

2.  Question for you all:  Is it pointless for me to say to her that blaming is not productive in a relationship, but finding solutions is productive?  In other words, should I point out that her behavior is damaging and pointless?

I think that if she didn't blame you, she could only blame herself.  This kind of self-devaluation leads to intense feelings of depression, worthlessness, low esteem, etc... .the kind of thoughts and feelings that probably drive some pwBPD to suicide.

What might be productive if she could be persuaded that there are other ways to cope.  For example, that she doesn't have to blame you or herself.  That someone can make a mistake but still be a good person.

[startrekuser]

Thanks schwing.  It's interesting what you said b/c I had a revelation the other night when having one of our "discussions".   I put that word in quotes b/c her thinking is so warped that our discussions are very odd to say the least.  Anyway, when she refers to hurts that were caused by me or my family, she describes them as "flashbacks" or "Vietnam-like memories" or PTSD and I always thought she was just being dramatic or exaggerating, but then I realized that it IS PTSD.  Her insecurity runs SO DEEP that an insult or perceived insult causes a PTSD event for her.  So she really does have flashbacks to insults.  It is mind-boggling to us nons, but it's a fact. 

On another note, my new goal is to get her into proper treatment b/c I'm reaching the end of my rope.  I'm tired of dealing with her nonsense and it IS NON-SENSE.  Is there a message board or article that discusses how to do that?  I'm very tired and stressed-out today after having a "conversation" with her last night.  She needs help badly.

[schwing]

On another note, my new goal is to get her into proper treatment b/c I'm reaching the end of my rope.  I'm tired of dealing with her nonsense and it IS NON-SENSE.  Is there a message board or article that discusses how to do that?  I'm very tired and stressed-out today after having a "conversation" with her last night.  She needs help badly.

I think you might get some good feedback in "Improving an Ongoing Relationship" forum for these kinds of questions.

My thought is that you could get advice from a therapist, if you have a therapist.  If you don't have a therapist you might consider getting one for extra support.

And as for persuading a BPD loved to getting therapy/proper treatment, I think it is important you don't bring up diagnoses.  Or at least don't bring up borderline personality disorder.  Just see if they can see the benefits of therapy and perhaps some of the benefits of behavioral (or dialectical) behavioral therapy.