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Author Topic: A tough week of setbacks  (Read 1229 times)
1hope
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« on: November 03, 2017, 10:07:47 PM »

Our 18 year old BPD daughter suddenly moved out in September.   We had no warning, just found out one day when we came home from work and she was gone.  She had been going to therapy, and taking meds (but we had to administer them each day).  We think she left so she could have more control of her life, and everyone in her peer group was going away to school.  She is taking courses in a bridge program which gives her both high school and college credits. 
Just this week she had a setback.  We have found out that she hasn't been taking meds, and was suicidal.  She had a hospital stay after she tried to overdose.  The root was that she hasn't been paying her bills (rent, phone, internet).  Now we have to step in and help her find her way out.  This is her pattern... .she paints herself into a corner, then doesn't see a way out.  It's a delicate balance with her.  Our therapist (who has helped our whole family) has stressed that we can't change her choice, but it is very important that she is successful.  We are struggling with what that means for us going forward, but are choosing to help her start to learn to budget.  We will take her shopping for the next while, and will give her a budgeted amount, and show her how to make that work.  At this point we're looking at it as a gradual release. 
We will also need to address the rent issue... .but are asking to see the lease (she says she doesn't have a copy), and will need to see info about how it is supposedly to be paid. 
She currently has a job, but didn't account for the fact that she doesn't get a standard number of shifts each week.  We are frustrated by the fact that she has somehow gone through about $1100 since she left home... .with only debt to show for it.  Because she left so suddenly, she didn't take many necessities with her, and as a result, had to buy towels, comforter, sheets etc. 
Has anyone else been here? 
Hanging on by our fingertips,
1hope
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« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2017, 11:46:55 PM »

I have come to the conclusion that the one thing BPDs should absolutely be allowed to ruin is their credit. It is just too much of a draw for most to make those impulse buys when the real cost can be kicked down the road.

I know that's a tough position to take on that issue, but while helping her to manage her money is good, rescuing the bad behavior with her credit just fuels more of it.
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« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2017, 07:53:52 PM »

Evanescence,
It sounds like you've been down this road... .may I ask what you experienced?
How are things now?
1hope
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« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2017, 09:42:43 PM »

Forgive me if what comes next seems disjointed, but I am aout 4/5 of the way through a 13.9% pounder of stout. It boils down to this:

Throughout the 14 years since I married my now exuBPDw, the issues with credit have been constant. I think I had a handle on things before we were married, not the best handle, but under control. She however was one to embrace whatever new credit she could get, regardless of ability to pay it back or the rates attached. About  6 years ago we finally resolved to file chapter 7 bankruptcy, if for no other reason than to unload the house that we wanted to move out of during the housing bubble crash. I would not assign blame to her leading up to that necessarily, but her spending and credit utilization habits exacerbated the need.

Flash forward 3 years post bankruptcy. I am diligently attempting to keep our credit in check, not running up additional charges for things we don't need. Simultaneously, she is opening new accounts where she can, and maxing them out within days. Granted, they were all of limited maximum debt, but a clear pattern was there.  Every time I paid them off and implored her to not put additional charges onto accounts, it was only a matter of a month or two before they were maxed out again. She continued this pattern even into this last year, opening a new account in March that was promptly run up to the limit to fund a spring break vacation.

She simply could not break the behavior no matter how much I attempted to prevent it. In retrospect, her credit score remained a little over 650 or so, which is ripe for getting additional credit on horrible terms. And frankly, I think we were headed down the same road that put us into bankruptcy 5 years ago - without the excuse of a housing bubble to assuage our impending financial difficulties.

She simply could not control her spending as long as somebody was willing to provide the credit.

Perhaps your daughter has a more firm handle on that reality, but this sort of impulsiveness is a hallmark of BPD. You have to let her figure it out on her own if you are seeing the same pattern. It won't matter if you bail her out or not, as the abuse of credit will continue so long as it is available to abuse.
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« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2017, 01:43:15 PM »


I’m so sorry to hear this 1hope. 
Our therapist (who has helped our whole family) has stressed that we can't change her choice, but it is very important that she is successful.  We are struggling with what that means for us going forward, but are choosing to help her start to learn to budget. 

I can understand your therapist saying it's very important that she's successful – I see how that’s important for my DD too, small successes happen slowly and build confidence. Her learning how to budget is a good start.  I have my budget on my kitchen wall and DD has hers too, it’s a good reminder we have financial commitments and importantly limits. Once my DD left the structured life education provides I noticed she struggled in her freelance career. She got everything delivered to time she is conscientious - but it was SO stressful for her and I believe may be one trigger that exacerbated her disorder to crisis point, as you describe ‘backing herself into a corner’ completely overwhelmed.  Interesting she gave up work last December to concentrate on her recovery – and she has, she owns it! She’s also decided the work was not making her happy, not a good fit, she’s looking to refocus, find a way of living that fits her values. I wonder sometimes if she has difficulty concentrating on more than one thing at a time, ie multi-tasking. Stayed and home and completed her degree, stayed at home and worked, stayed at home and managed her recovery, next is stay at home and get back to work, then it’s work and move to independent living. It’s healthy to have ambition, your young DD has taken it all on at once, living independently, managing her disorder, education, working. In addition to learning how to budget and organise herself what else can your DD learn from the experience? Can she see how continuing with treatment can underpin her achieving life goals through skills learning?  My DD has learnt a lot about herself through DBT and therapy and from other sufferers, it’s a healing experience from which she grows. 

As your DD does not have a secure or sufficient income to financially support herself through college, has it ever been your intention, choice to partially financially support her through college? 
How do you feel about the debts she’s incurred, totally floored, exasperated! One organisation I know where people are on government income support with a very limited income, pay a very small amount off like £2 a month if they get into debt. Recognises their limited income while making them accountable.

I know you and your H must be devastated, I also think you did right she left home suddenly and has to learn. She’ll feel guilt and shame, how is she, is she opening up to you? For me 1hope this journey is all about understanding the unique situation I'm dealing with, my DD's BPD and requires diving deep to understand her disorder through my learning, loads of patience, kindness, empathy, compassion and a simple plan. Most of all I have hope and my DD feels it, as does the kitten she rescued August 2016 and named Hope 

Small steps here together, have made big strides for me, as I look back from 2015  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

WDx
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« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2017, 05:52:08 PM »

Wendydarling,
Yes, we have money put aside for her for college, and have always planned to support her education.  Unfortunately, she is not yet in college, as she hasn't finished her high school diploma.  The program she is enrolled in has no cost, and is meant to bridge the transition.  She gets both her high school credit, along with 2 college credits.  We had hoped this would be a year of gradual transition for her, and she would be able to ease into college life.  She has already stated that she feels it would be best if she attended the college in our city.  We supported her decision.  It was our intention to support her so she could live in residence and she could still experience some independence, while having her safety net available if needed.  (She didn't know this, as we were waiting to tell her when she was more stable... .she was hospitalized twice in August for being suicidal.).

Now she has jumped the gun before she was stable, and became totally overwhelmed.  She has stopped going to her DBT therapist, and stopped her meds.  Since leaving the hospital, she says she is taking her meds (we never know when to believe her anymore). 

We took her shopping yesterday, and showed her how to plan meals on a budget.  We paid for the groceries, but only meals were purchased, no extra treats etc.  We have made a plan to help her pay off the rent debt.  We had some of her saved money in a separate account which she didn't have access to, and we'll give it to her when she provides us with the lease agreement (she says she didn't get one, but this doesn't seem legitimate).  We said we would pay half of November's rent, but only after she has put her half in a joint account we have with her, and she has shown us the rent payment info.  We want her to understand the seriousness of the situation without being absolutely without hope. 

Maybe people will say we're being manipulated, and that we shouldn't bail her out.  We're looking at it as a gradual release.  We need to do this for our family.  Our son told us things at home are calm now, and we're a family again.  I need to respect that, and respect him.  He is a member of our family that needs love and attention too. 

One step forward, five steps back... .
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« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2017, 03:00:36 AM »

Hi 1hope

What you say has also been true for me; one step forward, two back, one forward, one forward, one back, three forward ………… is exactly what I experienced during 2016 and posted. Thanks for explaining where your DD is in her education. How are things over the last few days, how are you? Any signs of re-engaging in DBT. You are right to do what you believe is best for your family.

WDx
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« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2017, 09:42:49 PM »

I am so sorry to hear this, my 18 year old also left home (right before she turned 18) to live with a new boyfriend of 3 weeks... .she is still there and has been 6 weeks.  She did come home and spent her birthday with us and spent the night and we thought she might stay home, but left the next night.  We have not been supporting her financially and took her car since she is not going to high school and living with someone we don't even know; she is probably using and is why she doesnt want to come home and thinks we "control" her life by having rules.  We also have a 12 yr old in the home and are not going to let her come and go as she pleases at all hours of the night and bringing drugs into our home or driving a car we own while using.

It has been very difficult to say the least.  Did you daughter have her own money when she left?  Is she living in an apt on her own?  I am glad that she is at least going to school; I hope that lasts.

Mine is also off her meds and not going to therapy at all.  She knows DBT skills that she has learned in therapy, but says they don't help.

I am trying to wrap my mind around this diagnosis which does not look good for her future.  We keep waiting for her to return home but my H doesn't think she will ever be able to come back and follow our rules.  She keeps asking us "why we care so much" - this is so odd for a child to ask their parents but may be because she doesn't think she is worthy and doesn't care about herself.  I am not sure how to even talk to her - I just keep texting her (we let her keep her phone for safety and be able to keep in touch with us) letting her know we love her.  Seems all we can do right now and say prayers that she can figure some things out on her own.

I feel your pain and please keep us posted on how she is doing.
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« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2017, 09:17:21 PM »

Our daughter had an interview for a new job this week.  She already has a job, but says she isn't getting enough hours.  (We have since found out she has been put on warning for missing too many shifts.). She called, very excited, to tell me she got the job.  I asked about details, as she said it was a "marketing job".  She said she will be working with a "team", meeting people "face to face", and will be pointing out the benefits of switching to a new phone plan.  The company "provides transportation".  What does this all mean?  Door to door sales, walking through neighbourhoods for 6 hours, ending at 8pm.  We live in Canada.  It snowed here last night... .
I have concerns about the workload (balancing school work), the extensive walking, the cold... .I tried asking questions rather than telling her I was worried.
Big mistake... .she got mad.  I didn't use my skills enough, and I know it.  I'm still working on this... .it's hard when you know she doesn't see the seriousness of quitting a stable job to take a less appealing, less realistic position that will likely not last when winter arrives. 
She still hasn't paid her rent to our knowledge... .we left it with her to contact us when she heard back from the landlord... .
We will be taking her grocery shopping again this weekend.  We'll see how it goes... .
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« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2017, 07:45:15 AM »

Hi 1hope

You did well trying out a new approach asking questions rather than telling her you were worried. We learn the skills along the way, they take practice, we surely don't get it right all the time, when we do have success we connect and it spurs us on. What do you think she needed to hear from you when she called? As you say the winter is likely to call this off early she'll be looking for the next job sooner than later, I know what you mean about workload and balancing school work, she's doing her best, this will test.

Sounds like she's a very laid back landlord, they are quick to evict here.

WDx
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« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2017, 07:52:19 PM »

Wendydarling,
We went grocery shopping again today. She told us (after being very cheerful while shopping) that she has given notice at her current job, and will start training at her new job tomorrow.  It is commission only.  We asked if she knew what that meant, and she said yes, that she gets paid by what she sells.  I asked why she traded her current job for one with no guaranteed wages.  She maintains that she had no choice, since she had been given a warning about her missed shifts.  (If I might fail, I'll quit has always been her go-to.). I told her I was concerned about her ability to pay half of her rent, but reinforced that she thought it through, and she must have felt it was the best choice. 

She still has not shown us the lease (she says she didn't get a copy from the landlord, but it is the law that she should have one).  The only thing the landlord sent her via email was the lease amendment that shows her taking over the lease from someone else.  (We saw it).  We helped her with what to ask the landlord for.  She is clearly avoiding.  I'm not sure what she thinks will happen... .but she says she doesn't want to move home, so... .

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« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2017, 06:45:23 PM »

Wendydarling,
I think she probably wanted me to be excited for her.  I find it hard to be "fake".  I value honesty too much (another reason why dealing with our BPD daughter is hard, as she lies constantly).  Instead, I try to ask questions, hoping that she will see things from different angles, and come to conclusions that she is comfortable with.  I don't know if this is a pointless act.  Our therapist said she has a mental illness, so her thoughts are irrational.  So how can I expect her to make rational choices? 
She's not taking meds, has stopped going to her Suicide prevention classes, isn't meeting her financial obligations, and isn't going to her DBT therapist.  Things aren't looking very positive.  It's been a rough few weeks... .trying to hang on and get through this. 
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« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2017, 08:09:16 AM »

Hi 1hope,

I was just reading this thread and can relate so much to your story.  We have a BPD daughter, 21, and have been down much the same path you are experiencing right now.  Our daughter blew through over $20,000 in savings in less than a year, plus what she was earning while working a good paying job (at the time).  She has been doing much better for the last several months, but that is another story.

It was reading about your daughter's new job that prompted me to write.  I am also from Canada.  I can feel your concern, and it is understandable.  Make sure your daughter always has her cell phone with her and that it is topped up when she goes to work, so she can contact you to pick her up if she needs you to. These types of jobs always seem to attract vulnerable workers.  They drop them off in strange neighbourhoods, often far from home.  I would be very concerned, too, if my daughter had such a job, particularly at 18.  I would just matter-of-factly explain that some of these jobs turn out to be horrible, and that if it turns out this one is, you would pick her up, no questions asked.  It wouldn't be her fault, or a reflection on her. Just a bad job.

Just my thoughts when I read your post.  I have a real concern about these kinds of "jobs" that have vulnerable young people dropped off in strange neighbourhoods presenting themselves at strangers' doors.  Everything we warn our kids not to do! 
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« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2017, 01:30:35 PM »

Mommae,
This is what I was thinking too!  They clearly target young, vulnerable workers!  She just started her training this week, and from the texts she has sent, she is overwhelmed and exhausted (one of the concerns I expressed to her before she started).  Of course, now that I have mentioned it, she will likely not want to quit, as she won't want to give in. 
She still hasn't paid her rent, and in our text conversations she said she's too busy working to deal with it!  I'm not sure what she thinks will happen... .I mentioned that they will evict her if she doesn't pay.  She told me not to "dump on her" before work again.   I told her I would leave it up to her to contact us when she had time to deal with it.   Meanwhile, the late payments and interest are adding up... .
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« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2017, 06:32:45 PM »

I think she probably wanted me to be excited for her.  I find it hard to be "fake".  I value honesty too much (another reason why dealing with our BPD daughter is hard, as she lies constantly).  Instead, I try to ask questions, hoping that she will see things from different angles, and come to conclusions that she is comfortable with.  I don't know if this is a pointless act.  Our therapist said she has a mental illness, so her thoughts are irrational.  So how can I expect her to make rational choices? 
She's not taking meds, has stopped going to her Suicide prevention classes, isn't meeting her financial obligations, and isn't going to her DBT therapist.  Things aren't looking very positive.  It's been a rough few weeks... .trying to hang on and get through this. 

1hope  I remember when your daughter was hospitalised over the summer you saying she sees her peers moving on, she left home to keep up is that right?  I get that, I've seen that in my daughter, she did not leave home, she completed her education, personally it was so hard as she was silently wracking up her disorders en route, she also gained though as it's only looking back that she is now learning - who she is, how she can help herself and that she needs to find a way of life that works for her. She is 10yrs senior your daughter. At 17 she shared with me she was in Soho taking photos in gay clubs, promoting a Gay magazine, I was beside myself for her safety, she won an award for her work, she was so proud - kind of put me in my place and hers in hers. 

All our situations here are different - happens in different ways and times, sharing helps us focus on what we are dealing with and what works for us as we learn from each other.

You know the penny will drop, she'll take a different direction again - how long it takes is hard for you right now,   as long as your daughter knows you'll be there for her, she is loved and you support her when she acknowledges - managing/recovery is her priority, is the best us parents can do. You are ahead of her in your learning and that is a positive, helped me cope. DBT, recovery from hospitalisation is for some (myDD) a full occupation for some time, that is what I have learnt.

And yes there is hope, they can manage their disorder when they make the choice. I'm half way through reading Stronger than BPD by Debbie Corso, if you've not read yet I recommend, insightful mentoring dbt for those living with BPD.

In what ways is your daughter lying? May it be she is lost?

WDx
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« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2017, 06:05:16 PM »

Wendydarling,
Our daughter lies to avoid.  She also "lies by omission" a lot... .doesn't tell us things she should, but rationalizes that we didn't ask her about it specifically etc.   As a result, she gets deeper and deeper into bad situations, and then becomes overwhelmed and becomes suicidal.  As our counsellor calls it, she then needs a "dig out".  It's a definite cycle, and one we don't want to perpetuate.  Her psychiatrist tells her that hospital admissions are not good... .they teach her brain that hospital stays/suicide attempts are the only solutions to her situations.  He says she needs to retrain her brain through DBT.  We see the logic in this, but also want her to be safe. 
For now, we are forced to wait... .until she sees that she needs meds to regulate her emotions, therapy to retrain her thinking, and suicide prevention programs to let her know she is not alone in her thoughts, and that she can find other ways to deal with destructive thoughts.  We continue to try and support her emotionally, but she is keeping us at arm's length right now.  We are doing all we can do, and are continuing therapy for ourselves. 
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« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2017, 09:32:00 AM »

Hi 1hope

Thanks for explaining so clearly, I'm glad you have advice and support to help you work through understanding the cycle and how not to perpetuate it.

How are you coping, how's your week been?  

This is hard stuff, you are doing your best  

WDx
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« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2017, 11:22:31 AM »

Thank so for your words of support Wendydarling.  I needed to see them today.  It's been a rough week emotionally.  We haven't seen our daughter for 2 weeks, and the contact has been minimal. 

We found out that her new job is basically 6 days a week.  We figure that she worked about 42 hrs this week, but only gets paid commission if she makes sales.  (No base salary).  Her rent will be due this week.  She won't get any pay until "3 weeks after her first sale"... .which means December 11th.  She still hasn't paid for October and November, although the money is sitting in the joint account we have with her.  She hasn't sent the landlord the forms to allow him to take payments from the account. 

In my texts with her last week, she rationalized that she is "doing what she's supposed to do... .work to make money for rent".  I tried to explain that she also needs to make sure the paperwork is in place so she won't be evicted.  She got mad and told me she'd appreciate it if I didn't text her before work and stress her out.  I think she is realizing that this job is extremely difficult, but won't give it up because she doesn't want to admit it.  The issues I wanted her to consider before accepting her job are the ones she is finding so difficult. 

We're trying to be there to support her, but we don't even see her because she is so busy with the job.  We're supposed to see her today to take her grocery shopping.  We're planning to get the forms sent to the landlord with her too, and are hoping that relieves some of the pressure on all of us. 

Holding out hope for a better week.  This pressure is affecting the whole family.  We're going to our counsellor again tomorrow... .doing what we can for ourselves. 
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« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2017, 08:24:36 AM »

You are most welcome 1hope  Smiling (click to insert in post)

How are you coping personally, it was a rough week emotionally.  

I hope you got to see your DD and that takes some of the immediate pressure off you and the family.
 
I can see how frustrating it is for you, when you see clearly the job is unsustainable for many reasons and the uncertainty how she’s emotionally coping with the demands.

Just to your comment on previous post where her psychiatrist tells her that hospital admissions are not good... .they teach her brain that hospital stays/suicide attempts are the only solutions to her situations.  He says she needs to retrain her brain through DBT.  We see the logic in this, but also want her to be safe.  Last night my daughter and I had a long chat which I'll share more later - she said DBT has retrained/rewired her brain along with meds of course. I needed to make that leap of faith that she could keep herself safe (as I could not) through this whole process and come out the other end, she has.

I'm sure you'll know this - mentioned briefly by Blaise Aguirre in this video, adolescents return less to hospital when parents refrain from making hospital visits, in other words parents visiting indicates reinforcing the behaviours BPD in Adolescence, Blaise Aguirre.  This kind of made sense to me.

Walking with you.  

WDx
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« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2017, 06:03:54 PM »

How are you 1hope? Been thinking of you and your girl. 

WDx
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« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2017, 07:35:33 PM »

WD,
Thanks for thinking of me!  Unfortunately, right now things aren't great.  DD18 is off meds, quit the door to door sales job after working a 52hr week and only making one sale.  She made $30.  She says her roommates "hate her", another close (but recent) friendship has ended.  She isn't sleeping well, which usually indicates a spiral. 
She has made contact with her support worker (although she said it didn't help).  Last weekend she had an appointment with her psychologist (trained in DBT).  She hasn't seen her since September when she moved out suddenly.  We told her we would take her to the appointments if she planned to go again, as the psychologist has moved her practice out of town. 
She's stuck. She doesn't know how to deal with things, as she hasn't gone to counselling enough/bought into it enough to gain the needed coping skills.  She's looking for quick fixes. 

We've been helping her financially with her rent in December, and with groceries.  We know this will need to stop, but we supported her decision to quit the door to door job as they were taking them to other cities, dropping them off in strange neighbourhoods, and they worked alone. 

She is coming over for Christmas, so hopefully things will be OK.  My H, son and I are planning a mini getaway to visit friends after Christmas.  We haven't told her yet.  We don't know yet if we will invite her.  We feel she has obligations that she needs to meet, so she should be looking for a job rather than going away with us. Also, things are tense when we're around each other too much right now. Any suggestions? 

I hope you have a wonderful holiday Wendydarling!  Thanks again for thinking of me!
1hope
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Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders
wendydarling
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Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Child
Relationship status: Mother
Posts: 2701



« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2017, 11:09:01 PM »

Hi 1hope

I'm sorry things are not great right now. It’s a positive step to see her therapist, I hope your DD continues to reach out for support. Will your DD be able to call the therapist out of hours if she continues?

You’ve set out things quite clearly for her, she has obligations, therefore decisions to make during the holiday if her choice is to stick at school and deliver her half towards living independently. As your therapist says throughout all this she needs to feel she is successful, she tried the sales job, did her best, yes $30 does not pay the rent. It can be hard to see they are doing their best when they are struggling, quick fixes... .

It’s the pits when things are tense, perhaps her spending time home during the holiday may give some space to get on the same page about nonBPD things in life.

Yes! You so deserve a break,   what a great way to start the new year.

WDx
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Be kind, always and all ways ~ my BPD daughter
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