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Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse... Have you considered that being critical, judgmental, or invalidating toward the other parent, no matter what she or he just did will only make matters worse? Someone has to be do something. This means finding the motivation to stop making things worse, learning how to interrupt your own negative responses, body language, facial expressions, voice tone, and learning how to inhibit your urges to do things that you later realize are contributing to the tensions.
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Author Topic: Recovering and trying to move on  (Read 474 times)
Maya60
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« on: December 03, 2017, 01:18:23 PM »

Hi all 
Today it is 5 and a half week since I broke up with my ex. It took me two weeks to process the worst pain and sadness, but since then I started to feel a bit better. It still hurts and it is hard to try and find "myself" again.
He kept sending me messages on whatsapp, about 1 every week. Sometimes it is about how aweful I am since I dumped him out of the blue, other times about what he did wrong and how sorry he is. Yesterday another one with "are you sure we will never be together again?" --he sent this question several times already.
But now I heared he's already searching my replacement by asking girls out.
I just feel hurt. I hate this whole situation. I mean, I ended a relationship and its hard to find closure when your ex partner doesn't understand what happened. There's no final talk... .

I love to go to concerts, but now I do not go often anymore since he's going to every possible event nearby.
I will go to a concert in January again with a good friend though, even though my ex will show up.

Its hard to continue life with him in my head too often.
How long does this take? Please share some stories with me   xx
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DogMan75
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« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2017, 02:07:54 PM »

It’s so hard.

I’ve been resisting the urge to text her about all the things I’d rather be sharing with her but know I need to be resolute. I did exchange a quick “Happy Thanksgiving” message with her but we left it at that.

When I left, I did leave the door open for her to contact me in the future -providing should she actually get her behaviors in check on her own, but I can’t hold my breath any longer waiting for her to do that on my watch.

I know I made the right decision, because it was the only decision left available to me. I had tried everything. I haven’t been perfect, I’ve said and done things I will always regret, but not in literally over a year. I have improved quantifiably. She hasn’t.

Despite this, the fact of the matter is I am trying to detach from someone I still actively love with all my heart. I know it will get better eventually, but this isn’t the better part yet. It just hurts so, so much. I just keep telling myself to get through one more day and it will be slightly (imperceptibly), better tomorrow.

Keep yourself busy and try to use what you can to better yourself. What else can you do?

Hang in there, Maya.

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Maya60
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« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2017, 02:30:16 PM »

Thank you for your reply DogMan. 
Yes I understand... .I am not responsible for him anymore, but we see clearly what's wrong with them. And now they will go on and set forth the destructive path they always follow. Nothing learned at all from former situations.

I wish we could stop loving them. I know we will one day. But when will that day come?
Sometimes I just fantasize about sending him a book on BPD to help. But I know that would not be good haha...

I try NC. Especially now I know he's already searching for dates I really try to get him out of my life... .

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« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2017, 02:47:31 PM »

Quote from: Maya60 link=topic=317850.msg12919435#msg12919435 date=1512328703

Its hard to continue life with him in my head too often.
How long does this take? Please share some stories with me   xx


I'm sorry you are going through this. I like your question "How long does this take?" I can honestly say there is no exact answer for you. But that is a good thing. For one it shows that you are honest with your feelings. I was the same way and I went to a therapist. Never downplay your feelings. Then I went NC.  You have to go NC and block him from all means of contact to you. This is the time where NC gives you time to heal yourself. It's a detox. If you have the means to see a therapist do it. Focus your energy and time to making yourself better because I know when I was with my exBPD I neglected myself. I started working out again and reading books on Codependency (Codependent No More) and Books on BPD. It's all about YOU now. The best thing you can do is to love yourself and use that energy you are focusing on him and channel it towards getting emotionally and mentally healthy.
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Bo123
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« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2017, 04:22:30 PM »

You are still in the early stages, just like any break-up.  How long does it take for you to usually get back to normal?  No closure is an extreme issue for some of us, we may or may not get it but you sound like you're on the right track.  I would start setting boundries in your mind about what you will do/not do if there is a meeting or calls.  I think seeing him will be an event for you as most of us it would also, prepare for it.  Hopefully the break-up was clean and didn't get ugly so there are no hate feelings.  Wishing you the best.  Just read my post and I'm sure you will feel better:)
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Lost-love-mind
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« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2017, 05:36:19 AM »

By reading these boards I realize there is no time frame for getting completely over a relationship with a borderline. I tried to use mathematical formulas found on the internet for based on the number of months together versus the amount of time to get over The Break-Up.
The exBPD r/s is so different due to the idealized pedestal we were placed upon with the initial "love bombing".
I was married for 20+ years before my pwBPD r/s. When my ex wife told me she was in a new relationship, I was shattered. Took me 3 mos to realize it was best.
However, it took 9 mos to be truly happy for her (with help of a good female friend).
Fast forward to my r/s with the exBPD = 2 mos r/s. Yet, it's almost 6 mos. out and I'm still yearning for the "love bombing". It is like an addiction to crack. The stimulating effect on the brain.
I realized there is no formula. But sticking to my recovery program of physical labor, support of friends and belief in my higher power (same as 12 step recovery from alcohol/drugs) keeps me focused away from the depression.
Recently, I stopped using this board, grew tired of the psychological alphabet soup of PC's, whether Npd or BPD (which I was diagnosed with tendencies of both), and cyberstalked my exBPD.
It was like a relapse of drugs/alcohol.
Time to focus on recovery. It takes time. One day at a time.
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Maya60
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« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2017, 08:51:31 AM »

I'm sorry you are going through this. I like your question "How long does this take?" I can honestly say there is no exact answer for you. But that is a good thing. For one it shows that you are honest with your feelings. I was the same way and I went to a therapist. Never downplay your feelings. Then I went NC.  You have to go NC and block him from all means of contact to you. This is the time where NC gives you time to heal yourself. It's a detox. If you have the means to see a therapist do it. Focus your energy and time to making yourself better because I know when I was with my exBPD I neglected myself. I started working out again and reading books on Codependency (Codependent No More) and Books on BPD. It's all about YOU now. The best thing you can do is to love yourself and use that energy you are focusing on him and channel it towards getting emotionally and mentally healthy.

Yes, I started complete NC now. I deleted him from facebook, but his family as well. Blocked him on whatsapp.
Well, actually I just finished a very helpful book on BPD and how to leave your partner. I felt stronger after reading, but the new message, the info on him dating again and immediate friend request on FB after deleting shakes my world. I hope there will be a more quiet period, so I can focus on myself yes.

Next week I will visit a therapist yes Smiling (click to insert in post)
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Maya60
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« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2017, 08:55:32 AM »

You are still in the early stages, just like any break-up.  How long does it take for you to usually get back to normal?  No closure is an extreme issue for some of us, we may or may not get it but you sound like you're on the right track.  I would start setting boundries in your mind about what you will do/not do if there is a meeting or calls.  I think seeing him will be an event for you as most of us it would also, prepare for it.  Hopefully the break-up was clean and didn't get ugly so there are no hate feelings.  Wishing you the best.  Just read my post and I'm sure you will feel better:)
My other relationships ended with closure so I felt better after a few weeks. This one is soo different. Felt like he was the love of my life (but hey, that's what the BPD-specialty is ... . )


Well, it was clean to begin with. But I do not know how he will react. Since he doesn't seem to fit the pieces together of what really happened.
I'm talking a lot to his ex (they have been together for 9 years and have kids as well) and we became friends Smiling (click to insert in post) I even see her still struggling in a moment like this when finding out he's trying to date the sister of her best friend.
But what I wanted to say: when they broke up, he came to a festival and acted awful to her and her friends after being drunk.
So I am trying what to do when we will see each other, but he's so unpredictable! A bit scary even... .
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Maya60
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« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2017, 08:59:28 AM »

By reading these boards I realize there is no time frame for getting completely over a relationship with a borderline. I tried to use mathematical formulas found on the internet for based on the number of months together versus the amount of time to get over The Break-Up.
The exBPD r/s is so different due to the idealized pedestal we were placed upon with the initial "love bombing".
I was married for 20+ years before my pwBPD r/s. When my ex wife told me she was in a new relationship, I was shattered. Took me 3 mos to realize it was best.
However, it took 9 mos to be truly happy for her (with help of a good female friend).
Fast forward to my r/s with the exBPD = 2 mos r/s. Yet, it's almost 6 mos. out and I'm still yearning for the "love bombing". It is like an addiction to crack. The stimulating effect on the brain.
I realized there is no formula. But sticking to my recovery program of physical labor, support of friends and belief in my higher power (same as 12 step recovery from alcohol/drugs) keeps me focused away from the depression.
Recently, I stopped using this board, grew tired of the psychological alphabet soup of PC's, whether Npd or BPD (which I was diagnosed with tendencies of both), and cyberstalked my exBPD.
It was like a relapse of drugs/alcohol.
Time to focus on recovery. It takes time. One day at a time.

Yep, you are completely right here. The extreme tight emotional bond makes it difficult to erase them from your mind. They are sucked into it in a way it's not normal. Yes it feels like addiction to their love.

But do you feel ready for dating other people at this moment? Or do you still  feel like you need to heal more first?
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« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2017, 04:45:39 PM »

Yep, you are completely right here. The extreme tight emotional bond makes it difficult to erase them from your mind. They are sucked into it in a way it's not normal. Yes it feels like addiction to their love.

But do you feel ready for dating other people at this moment? Or do you still  feel like you need to heal more first?
Tried dating and it was a futile effort. I need to work on my own validation without the distraction of another human being.
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« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2017, 05:13:28 PM »


Its hard to continue life with him in my head too often.
How long does this take? Please share some stories with me   xx


Yes this is the truth. It is hard. And then we do it anyway. Well done for taking control of it and breaking up. That takes courage.

The length of time it takes is usually proportional to the length of the relationship. How long were you guys together?

Mine was a 15 year marriage. It took me about 2 years before I became indifferent. Feeling neither longing, nor hatred.

Sorry you're struggling  through this. You can do It! Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2017, 07:26:46 PM »

Tried dating and it was a futile effort. I need to work on my own validation without the distraction of another human being.


Yep,  I was introduced to someone this week through work and apparently she likes me.  I immediately thought, "oh no not another one (liking me)". Now i'm terrified they will "like me" or "adore" me too much!  I don't know what's normal for getting in a relationship or dating.  I just want to be friends so that i don't have to get real close for awhile.  But it triggered me because my exBPD/npd gf is already on the hunt dating different guys while i'm feeling like damaged goods. 

Dogman:  did you feel better exchanging thanksgiving messages?  I didn't do it because i'm in no contact and a week before she liked one of my posts on fb but nothing for Thanksgiving. It totally tortured me but I don't know if i would have felt any better contacting her.  I still wish she would contact me just to show she cares?  But as someone said the reason this hurts so bad is that we were given rewards constantly when we met them and they slowly started pulling them away.  Now the brain is searching for the reward; waiting for it to come but it only comes intermittently or not at all.  Therefore the mind pines for the reward.   I am going through that now.  What is a bummer is that my brain only wants that "pellet" of reward and none other!   
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Maya60
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« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2017, 04:20:44 AM »

Yes this is the truth. It is hard. And then we do it anyway. Well done for taking control of it and breaking up. That takes courage.

The length of time it takes is usually proportional to the length of the relationship. How long were you guys together?

Mine was a 15 year marriage. It took me about 2 years before I became indifferent. Feeling neither longing, nor hatred.

Sorry you're struggling  through this. You can do It! Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

We were together for more than 2 years, living together for 11 months.
So not a very long period of time. But it was so intense. Felt more like 5 years or so.
I'm really looking forward though to talk to a psych later this month. Hope she can help me with some closure... Cos I feel like I'm stuck at this point. I know it's gonna take a lot of patience.
But I wanna be ready when I meet him again one day... .without being a total emotional wreck. I'm really scared seeing him again
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Maya60
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« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2017, 04:23:03 AM »


Yep,  I was introduced to someone this week through work and apparently she likes me.  I immediately thought, "oh no not another one (liking me)". Now i'm terrified they will "like me" or "adore" me too much!  I don't know what's normal for getting in a relationship or dating.  I just want to be friends so that i don't have to get real close for awhile.  But it triggered me because my exBPD/npd gf is already on the hunt dating different guys while i'm feeling like damaged goods. 

Dogman:  did you feel better exchanging thanksgiving messages?  I didn't do it because i'm in no contact and a week before she liked one of my posts on fb but nothing for Thanksgiving. It totally tortured me but I don't know if i would have felt any better contacting her.  I still wish she would contact me just to show she cares?  But as someone said the reason this hurts so bad is that we were given rewards constantly when we met them and they slowly started pulling them away.  Now the brain is searching for the reward; waiting for it to come but it only comes intermittently or not at all.  Therefore the mind pines for the reward.   I am going through that now.  What is a bummer is that my brain only wants that "pellet" of reward and none other!   


Same here, I don't feel like dating. And even if I someone did like me, I would not know how to handle it.
I need to be stronger first to start a new relationship...

Wish things were easier. My ex will just find a new girl asap and continue his life. Not something I should be jealous of. But it hurts me very bad.

I can already imagine seeing him again... .and he'll be there with a new girl.
Dunno why I fill my head with these horror scenarios.
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« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2017, 01:00:22 PM »

Same here, I don't feel like dating. And even if I someone did like me, I would not know how to handle it.
I need to be stronger first to start a new relationship...

Wish things were easier. My ex will just find a new girl asap and continue his life. Not something I should be jealous of. But it hurts me very bad.

I can already imagine seeing him again... .and he'll be there with a new girl.
Dunno why I fill my head with these horror scenarios.

Maya,

It's interesting how we (non's) seem to have this problem with imagination (from reading other posts).  I recently started using an old skill that i had learned called EFT to help with this.  I think it has been helping but it takes constant re-enforcement to "tap out" the negative thoughts. 

i was able to identify some deep wounds from childhood which this was touching on.  Have you been able to be introspective about this?  I kept asking questions like, "what is it about her being with another man that really bothers me?"  "what wound or thing from my childhood or past does this pattern of dysfunctional partners play?"  After asking several questions like this i did get some memories and ideas on where this is coming from. So i'm wondering if there is some common thread amongst us NON's? (ie. that we did not receive some value in some way from one of the parents etc?)   

my EFT statement for my gal sleeping with or being with other men is:  "even though(my ex's name) is dating or even possibly sleeping with other men, I deeply and completely love and accept myself."  And then i tap on the acupuncture/presssure points that EFT teaches you to do.  I went from a 10 down to a 3 or 4 after doing this.  Even though I can't erase the thoughts or prevent my imagination from running wild- i can tap for the pain of the imagination and it helps. 

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Maya60
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« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2017, 10:30:13 AM »

Hi truth,

No I didn't know about EFT. But I will mention it to my therapist when we meet in two weeks Smiling (click to insert in post)

Hm childhood. I had a very nice childhood with my family. But I did felt like an outcast at school. Always have been. I felt a very strong connection at this point with my ex. We both are the same in that way and it would hurt me to see it was fake. That special connection. When he can find someone new so quick. It means I feel betrayed... I trusted him ... .felt like we belonged together.

Thats the first thing that popped up in my mind.
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« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2017, 11:30:31 AM »

I think you should be thankful you were the one who ended it, because in my opinion that is more closure than to be left hanging like I was. We never "broke up," she just disappeared on me under the guise of a vacation. The only "problems" we were having were her extreme emotional outbursts, and my shutting down and just retreating into my shell as a result. This is a woman who I lived with for 2 years. We talked on the phone briefly after, but it was essentially her stringing me along while she was doing god knows what, probably lining up a replacement.

It does hurt like hell to know that they can hop from person to person like that. It feels like it cheapens the entire relationship. In hindsight, it wasn't true love. It was a person who was using us to fill a void inside of them which nothing/nobody can fill. It's a painful realization. It has been 3 months for me and I am still extremely hurt. I don't know how long it takes to heal, but I can assure you much longer in my case.

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« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2017, 09:18:22 PM »

Crushed again,

i'm sorry for your pain too!
did you pick your tag name due to this happening in the past as well?  I have a pattern- this is the 2nd time a more NPD with borderline traits has come into my life.  The first one got me so derailed during my divorce (met her during my 2 year separation) that i made some really bad choices.  If my brain wasn't so screwed up from being dropped by her, i might have been able to deal with things better. 

This one seemed worse in the aftermath because of my pain of this happening again. It makes me "feel" broken because i keep attracting or being attracted to disordered women.  Yes I call bs and they wind up leaving but i don't know how to feel safe or trust my attraction to women now.  Should i pick ones that i don't like versus ones that i am really pulled toward?  what a mind (blank). 

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Bo123
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« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2017, 10:24:07 PM »

Getting "stuck" seems fairly common as there is so much unknown to try to make sense of.  And most of it never will and the ex usually wont help.  Its just a break-up X10 and more complex, which means more recovery time, more questions than answers.  Looking back, had I known she was BPD it would likely never started and 1st sign of BPD issues, I would cut my loses and end it.  Had I known when she cancel the engagement(parents and culture played a part, I would have offered to be there a short time then be 100% gone.  Nothing good ever came out of trying to stay friends or acquaintences, only hassles and pain and really dragged out my recovery.  It's tough.  If you swam with sharks and didn't get seriously hurt, you're lucky, trying to do it again, in my opinion is emotional suicide.  Easier said than done, but find someone who loves you back on the same normal healthy level instead of making your life's work trying to fix them.  Hope you get/got a good therapist.  Best of luck.
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« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2017, 11:36:39 PM »

Crushed again,

i'm sorry for your pain too!
did you pick your tag name due to this happening in the past as well?  I have a pattern- this is the 2nd time a more NPD with borderline traits has come into my life.  The first one got me so derailed during my divorce (met her during my 2 year separation) that i made some really bad choices.  If my brain wasn't so screwed up from being dropped by her, i might have been able to deal with things better.  

This one seemed worse in the aftermath because of my pain of this happening again. It makes me "feel" broken because i keep attracting or being attracted to disordered women.  Yes I call bs and they wind up leaving but i don't know how to feel safe or trust my attraction to women now.  Should i pick ones that i don't like versus ones that i am really pulled toward?  what a mind (blank).  



Thank you, and I'm sorry for your pain as well. Yes, I picked my name because I foolishly gave her a second chance after she walked out on me the first time. However, I had no idea when she called me crying the day after she walked out that she was calling from her ex-boyfriend's house, she told me she was with a female friend. Had I known she had gone there I would have told her to stick it where the sun don't shine and don't ever call me again. She stayed with that ex-boyfriend for close to 2 weeks before she found a new place because I told her that she couldn't live with me anymore, that if we were going to try again it wasn't with her living with me, especially after she just walked out and tossed the relationship away like a piece of trash. She did the same thing again, which is why I would NEVER give her another chance. That's why I'm sure I'll never hear from her again, because she knows I won't give her another shot.
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« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2017, 06:38:06 AM »

Crushed again,

i'm sorry for your pain too!
did you pick your tag name due to this happening in the past as well?  I have a pattern- this is the 2nd time a more NPD with borderline traits has come into my life.  The first one got me so derailed during my divorce (met her during my 2 year separation) that i made some really bad choices.  If my brain wasn't so screwed up from being dropped by her, i might have been able to deal with things better. 

This one seemed worse in the aftermath because of my pain of this happening again. It makes me "feel" broken because i keep attracting or being attracted to disordered women.  Yes I call bs and they wind up leaving but i don't know how to feel safe or trust my attraction to women now.  Should i pick ones that i don't like versus ones that i am really pulled toward?  what a mind (blank). 



Referring to the second part of your reply: I recognize this. And I hope to find an answer to this in therapy. I don't know how to stop this, and to be honest, falling in love is something that just happens, not something rational.
Hope we will grow stronger eventually and develop some kind of personality disorder radar 
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« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2017, 06:45:21 AM »

Getting "stuck" seems fairly common as there is so much unknown to try to make sense of.  And most of it never will and the ex usually wont help.  Its just a break-up X10 and more complex, which means more recovery time, more questions than answers.  Looking back, had I known she was BPD it would likely never started and 1st sign of BPD issues, I would cut my loses and end it.  Had I known when she cancel the engagement(parents and culture played a part, I would have offered to be there a short time then be 100% gone.  Nothing good ever came out of trying to stay friends or acquaintences, only hassles and pain and really dragged out my recovery.  It's tough.  If you swam with sharks and didn't get seriously hurt, you're lucky, trying to do it again, in my opinion is emotional suicide.  Easier said than done, but find someone who loves you back on the same normal healthy level instead of making your life's work trying to fix them.  Hope you get/got a good therapist.  Best of luck.

Yes in hindsight I see all the red flags that already appeared within the first 2 months of the relationship.

Woah, cancelling the engagement  how horrible. Cos actually you were ready to spend the rest of your life with her. And then, gone, just like that.

Yes, I know. It's still such a short period out of it now. I know one day we'll be able to meet someone new and continue our lives, but that moment still seems so far away.

And unlike other relationships, although I know I did the right thing, there's always this little mind**** going on cos I still love him and I'd have a very very small hope he'll see the light. But we all know this is so unlikely. Still, that feeling keeps me from letting him go in my mind.  Why do we care so much about these "broken" people... .
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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
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« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2017, 10:21:25 AM »

Yes in hindsight I see all the red flags that already appeared within the first 2 months of the relationship.
... .

Yes, I know. It's still such a short period out of it now. I know one day we'll be able to meet someone new and continue our lives, but that moment still seems so far away.

And unlike other relationships, although I know I did the right thing, there's always this little mind**** going on cos I still love him and I'd have a very very small hope he'll see the light. But we all know this is so unlikely. Still, that feeling keeps me from letting him go in my mind.  Why do we care so much about these "broken" people... .
Maya60
That sums up my experience with my exBPD. Except she broke it off with liitle or no explanation. Went completely NC except insulting vile email a few months back. Despite that, I can't seem to get her out of my mind.
I know the time will come when someone new comes into my life.
Good luck to you.
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Harley Quinn
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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
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I am exactly where I need to be, right now.


« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2017, 07:00:27 PM »

Hi Maya60,

You've had some great replies here.  Just to pick up on something in your last post:

Excerpt
And unlike other relationships, although I know I did the right thing, there's always this little mind**** going on cos I still love him and I'd have a very very small hope he'll see the light. But we all know this is so unlikely. Still, that feeling keeps me from letting him go in my mind.  Why do we care so much about these "broken" people... .

It's possible you've already seen this article, as we bring it up a lot here on this board.  The reason I introduce it so often is because it was the single most effective thing I read in helping me to work through those reasons why we stop ourselves from letting go.  It covers the 10 beliefs that can keep us stuck and there were some good discussions on each, which you can find with the links at the bottom of the article.  It is about surviving a breakup with a partner with BPD and you can see it HERE.  I continually checked back over this article in the early stages of my recovery, as it was like a yard stick for me in my progress, as I gradually worked on each of those beliefs that applied to me.  I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on it and which of them you feel could be holding you back from fully detaching.  

Stay strong and continue to post and learn, as this will help your resolve and also help you to steel yourself for if and when your paths cross.  That first sighting can be tough, but you can get through it and we'll be here to support you.

Love and light x
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We are stars wrapped in skin.  The light you are looking for has always been within.
Bo123
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« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2017, 07:36:02 PM »

Maya60--To your comment about why we love these people so much and always have a little hope that it may all work out someday and they realize and come back.  You didn't say all those things but I think its common for most of us who were dating fairly normal good hearted, sometimes highly functioning and educated people whose friends never even saw the side of them we did, mine was exactly like that.  Many BPD are very loveable people, but can and often show us a different side.  One one hand yeah I can be mad upset, hurt, unforgiving,etc after how well I treated her.  On the other hand, they have a disorder and I don't think many even realize it, they may know they act different at times but their brains process it differently, if they do something bad to us on purpose I think likely its BPD driven and not from the heart.  And with my extensive research since this all began, its rare for them to ever recognize and seek help on their own or agree to participate in therapy and if they do, they often quit and say they're never going to see a therapist again.  And clearly the therapist's only goal is to help so when the BPD quits that, I feel sorry that the pattern will likely continue and there will be more people caught in the net like we were.  I will always keep a very small amount of hope alive, but I know the odds, but it feels good anyway and as long as we move along I think may even be a healthy approach.  Hope you are doing well.
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