Navigating the BPD beast & depression

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

So, last week, uBPDh quit his real estate agency position, his first real job in many years. He quit preemptively, thinking that his supervisor was going to let him go. I don't know whether that was actually the case, but that's neither here nor there right now.

It's been a week since he quit, and, instead of moving forward, he has sunk into a deep depression. He has not showered since Sunday (it's now Thursday), and has spent most of his days in bed, only managing to take care of the dogs, but neglecting all other housework. This puts extra burden on me, as he just strews things around, leaves dishes in the sink, and is just generally uncaring about keeping things in order.

I tried to talk to him about it last night over dinner, but he said he didn't want to talk about it, and became angry with me for bringing it up. He punched a bottle of window cleaner across the living room, scaring the dogs.

Later, were lying in bed (his favorite hour to start fights), and he said, quietly, "I'm going to kill myself." I said, "Really?" He said, "Nevermind," and I, at the suggestion of others on this forum, hopped onto the suicide hotline chat queue. He asked me what I was doing. I said, "I'm getting on the suicide hotline chat." He became enraged, grabbed my phone, and threw it across the room. I told him to calm down, or next time I would call the police. He said, "Good, then they can shoot me." I told him I didn't like hearing that.

Eventually things calmed down, but before they did, he threw in a Nietzsche quote, “The thought of suicide is a great consolation: by means of it one gets through many a dark night. "

I don't believe he will kill himself, but there's always the possibility, and, regardless, he is clearly in a very tortured place at the moment. He won't get help. He won't even think about therapy at this point, and if I even bring it up, he shuts me down.

So... .what to do? On the one hand, I know he will eventually come out of this, but how long to wait? And if a little thing such as quitting a job completely shuts down functioning, what kind of life is that?

I feel like I've done everything I can, and everything I do that is not coddling him enrages him. He often paints me as someone who does not care about him, someone who does not understand him - BECAUSE I'm not going "Oh, poor baby! Stay in bed as long as you want. You don't have to do anything, I'll take care of you. You go back to having fun on the internet all day." I'm asking him questions he does not want to answer, making him think more rationally about his feelings. He hates that. So, as a result, I'm a mean ol' meanie.

I don't want to enable him to continue to loaf, but I'm not sure how else to handle this. If I bring up finances, he loses his mind. I can't even talk about budgets and overspending without him blowing up at me.

It's really hard for me to pick up and leave right now, as work is very intense, and we just got a new dog that our old dog is having trouble adjusting to. I have thought about just going to stay with my parents until he shapes up, but they live an hour out of town. It just makes it really tough for me. And I sincerely do not think that it will change anything for him, and possibly make his depression worse.

The other, more convenient option is to just watch and see how this plays out, and if he'll pick himself up in a few days. It still doesn't fix the root issue, obviously, but we need something to switch his mood so that at least he quits moping and takes a shower.

[WitzEndWife]

So, last week, uBPDh quit his real estate agency position, his first real job in many years. He quit preemptively, thinking that his supervisor was going to let him go. I don't know whether that was actually the case, but that's neither here nor there right now.

It's been a week since he quit, and, instead of moving forward, he has sunk into a deep depression. He has not showered since Sunday (it's now Thursday), and has spent most of his days in bed, only managing to take care of the dogs, but neglecting all other housework. This puts extra burden on me, as he just strews things around, leaves dishes in the sink, and is just generally uncaring about keeping things in order.

I tried to talk to him about it last night over dinner, but he said he didn't want to talk about it, and became angry with me for bringing it up. He punched a bottle of window cleaner across the living room, scaring the dogs.

Later, were lying in bed (his favorite hour to start fights), and he said, quietly, "I'm going to kill myself." I said, "Really?" He said, "Nevermind," and I, at the suggestion of others on this forum, hopped onto the suicide hotline chat queue. He asked me what I was doing. I said, "I'm getting on the suicide hotline chat." He became enraged, grabbed my phone, and threw it across the room. I told him to calm down, or next time I would call the police. He said, "Good, then they can shoot me." I told him I didn't like hearing that.

Eventually things calmed down, but before they did, he threw in a Nietzsche quote, “The thought of suicide is a great consolation: by means of it one gets through many a dark night. "

I don't believe he will kill himself, but there's always the possibility, and, regardless, he is clearly in a very tortured place at the moment. He won't get help. He won't even think about therapy at this point, and if I even bring it up, he shuts me down.

So... .what to do? On the one hand, I know he will eventually come out of this, but how long to wait? And if a little thing such as quitting a job completely shuts down functioning, what kind of life is that?

I feel like I've done everything I can, and everything I do that is not coddling him enrages him. He often paints me as someone who does not care about him, someone who does not understand him - BECAUSE I'm not going "Oh, poor baby! Stay in bed as long as you want. You don't have to do anything, I'll take care of you. You go back to having fun on the internet all day." I'm asking him questions he does not want to answer, making him think more rationally about his feelings. He hates that. So, as a result, I'm a mean ol' meanie.

I don't want to enable him to continue to loaf, but I'm not sure how else to handle this. If I bring up finances, he loses his mind. I can't even talk about budgets and overspending without him blowing up at me.

It's really hard for me to pick up and leave right now, as work is very intense, and we just got a new dog that our old dog is having trouble adjusting to. I have thought about just going to stay with my parents until he shapes up, but they live an hour out of town. It just makes it really tough for me. And I sincerely do not think that it will change anything for him, and possibly make his depression worse.

The other, more convenient option is to just watch and see how this plays out, and if he'll pick himself up in a few days. It still doesn't fix the root issue, obviously, but we need something to switch his mood so that at least he quits moping and takes a shower.

[isilme]

Crap.  I am so sorry.  I had hoped getting a job would bolster him, give him some consistency, and that a steady schedule would keep him in a better place emotionally.

Is there anyone you can talk to in person in your area for support for someone caring for a person who is depressed and claims suicidal tendencies?  Does the hotline offer help or suggestions for you as well?

I don't see quitting as little thing - he likely is both trying to justify it in his head "they were going to fire me anyway", but also doubting if they were really going to fire him and wondering if he made a mistake.  He's stuck in a limbo of wasting time on a decision already made and executed.  H does this and it drives me crazy - I'm like, the time to weigh things has passed!  Now live with it learn from it and move on.

Ugh.  Your H's depression is on par with the very worst I think my H ever fell into, and he did not stay there very long - he became frantic almost to keep occupied, to make himself feel he had SOME worth, just to fight off the suicidal and dark feelings. 

I don't know how long to wait - your H seems to fall into a winter solstice hole and stay there until spring if last year is an indication, and then he fights getting out of the hole even then.  And it's a dark time of year, the weather is often bad for being outside, meaning he can't easily be encouraged to get out and exercise for endorphin's sake. 

What can you see trying to do to shake him up, encourage without enabling?  And can you protect your finances by giving him a cash allowance that he has to budget instead of letting him use credit cards (I remember this being an issue before)?  And barring doing anything to try to help his mood, how are you doing in all of this?  House cleaning can be caught up, and only "needs" to be done if you are feeling stressed by it because mess annoys you.  Don't worry about it looking like Mrs. Cleavers for anyone else, though.  That can wait.  Getting some rest, making sure furbabies are okay, this takes precedence over all else at this time. 

[WitzEndWife]

isilme- Yeah, you're right. Wintertime definitely is not a good time for him in the first place. I think what's really important is for me to get myself into a positive place, like I did last year, so as not to let him suck me down with him. I can't be encouraging and positive if I'm not in a good place. It's been a tough month for me. I had pneumonia, I had to take a bitten dog to the emergency room, and just deal with the general stress of having the two dogs not getting along (they're much better now).

I could probably encourage some more "getting out of the house" time. At least with a new dog, he has to go on walks and go to the dog park across the street. I'll have to look into local events. Maybe doing something out of the house will kick-start him again. Hmm... .

[formflier]

I feel like I've done everything I can, and everything I do that is not coddling him enrages him. He often paints me as someone who does not care about him, someone who does not understand him - BECAUSE I'm not going "Oh, poor baby! Stay in bed as long as you want. You don't have to do anything, I'll take care of you. You go back to having fun on the internet all day." I'm asking him questions he does not want to answer, making him think more rationally about his feelings. He hates that. So, as a result, I'm a mean ol' meanie.
 

You understand the dynamic, while he may not be able to explain it as intellectually has you have... .it's obvious the relationship he is pushing for.

He wants to be coddled.  He wants it so bad he is willing to threaten to kill himself.  (do you ever wonder how many people take a threat too far... .and "accidentally kill themselves"... .while blaming someone else)

He wants it so bad he is will to punch things and scare dogs.

He wants it so bad he is willing to scare you and throw your phone... .when you are taking reasonable and prudent action to protect his life.

He wants it so bad he will quit a job.

We can keep listing more and more of these.

We also know from on BPD family that "talking" and words rarely work.

We also know from bpdfamily that boundaries are usually more effective.  

We also know from BPD family that they "hear" actions much more than the "hear" words.

I purposefully  laid all of those "truths" out separately, because they all are incredibly important to consider when figuring out a "strategy" to protect your life and give him the option of a better life.

My suggestion is that you look at what actions you have done and then figure out if the "new actions" in response to all of this should go more toward "coddling" or more towards "responsibility".  I also suggest you consider if putting any more energy into "new words" is worth your time or effort.

Thoughts?

What "fears" do you have as you consider your next move?

FF

[WitzEndWife]

I don't really have fears, per se. Honestly, right now, I just cannot be bothered to be inconvenienced right now, so doing something like leaving feels out of the question at the moment. I feel like, "Why should I put myself out to do something inconvenient for myself in order to set a boundary?" It's only going to cause me more stress and more strife, and I'm not really prepared to do that at the moment. So, what else to do?

Some thoughts:

Stop paying for his phone if he continues to be out of work

Refuse to give any more money toward his license fees and other expenses

Refuse to go out to eat, even for pizza.

Avoid cleaning up after him, even if the house becomes a huge mess


I'm hoping he will get himself out of it, but either way, I'm not going to play into his drama. He wants me to wring my hands over him. I'm SO not doing that.

And I need to do more self care, like getting out of the house with friends by myself. It will certainly help me avoid getting sucked into his doom and gloom. I have two evenings planned next week with girlfriends, and then I'm going out of town for work the following week. Hopefully that will help me reset a bit.

[formflier]

I think you are on the right track.

Why give him any money at all or pay anything.

You can still demonstrate you are "for" him by saying for ever $2 he brings in from Uber, you will add 1 as long as that money is going towards "his" expenses. (phone... license fees... .etc etc)

Here is the thing... .if you pay anything while he is acting like a person that needs to be coddled... .you are encouraging it.

It's one thing to put money towards something while he is actively getting up, taking a shower and putting forth effort.

It's another to put money towards "moping around".  

The reason he did that before is (in part) because you paid him to do it.   (in his mind)

The reason you should do it, even when inconvenient for you, is because YOU are the one that stewards your life and your future.  

Thoughts?

This stuff is not easy... .and there is risk to the relationship.  I think you understand the risk of doing nothing... .correct?  You know where that goes.

So, is there "fear" of where it will go if you go in a different direction?

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Ugh! The BPD depression. I think you’ve got some great ideas about dealing with what your husband is presenting, by not paying for some of his expenses and planning event with your friends.

My question to you is what’s next? If he continues to hold a pity party for himself, what is your next step?

[formflier]

what is your next step?

And how will that step protect you and your interests?

How will that step likely be perceived by your pwBPD?

How will that step "fit" into what "the rules" teach is a pathway to a calmer r/s with a pwBPD?

FF

[DearHusband]

WEW,

How would you act towards him if everything prior to this week hadn't happened and he didn't have BPD?

I find that my pwBPD doesn't remember that her actions have ANY residual impact on others. So, yours may be looking at your reaction to his personal crisis du jour and thinking, "What the hey? Here I am struggling and I'm getting no support. Why am I being treated like this?" SET?

I think FF was right when he says that he wants to be coddled. If I lost a job, even if I quit, I might want that too for a week before it was time to get moving again. That's the hard part: knowing how much is enough vs how much is too much?

Good luck,
DH

[formflier]

That's the hard part: knowing how much is enough vs how much is too much?

I would want to expand on this a bit.  The hardest part is knowing "how much more".

You have made good strides with boundaries and he has responded.  No shock that he pushes back with dysfunctional behavior.  Your job is to "push back harder' with healthier behavior and "logical and natural consequences".  I know that's inconvenient... .and you don't have time... .but IF you choose to be in a r/s that you want to improve... .that task falls to you.

I would be more "forgiving" or push you to have more empathy if something really had happened to him... .like getting fired.  (getting fired sucks... .I've been there).  Quitting a job or resigning for a new position is a choice and a choice with consequences.  do not insulate him whatsoever from those  This is critical.

It would be one thing if he saved up money and then quit... .that's reasonable and healthy.

It would be one thing if he uncovered ethical issues and walked away... .that's a principled stand.

He did "the BPD thing"... .life has consequences for that... .those consequences will help him grow out of BPD... .please let the "medicine" (consequences) work.

So... .what boundary changes... .what consequences will he face from quitting... .consequences that you "pass on to him"... .vice "handle for him".

FF

[WitzEndWife]

Well, my first boundary is not to give him a cent more for his credit cards, other than to pay him back for things I asked him to get for me.

I think my problem right now is that I can't even mention expenses or paying anything back, without him becoming enraged about me "pressuring" him. I'm not sure how to manage that. I feel like this is extraordinarily manipulative. I can't even bring up anything related to money without him roaring or throwing things around. So, what to do? Just ignore these conversations and just act by avoiding paying for things?

Of course, if this loafing continues, it's certainly a breach of our marriage contract. I don't know any other way than to "pressure" him by leaving. That's going to take a lot of hassle, but I'm going to start thinking through how to make that work. I don't have a specific timeline for how long I'm going to tolerate this, but I have to think about what will work for me. I think a month is more than enough time to "wait and see." I don't know if I can wait quite that long, but I'll see.

[WitzEndWife]

Update: I just chatted with him online, and he apparently is at a professional networking event today. This is a good sign! I assume he showered, which is a relief. 

Non-coddling might be working, after all... .

[formflier]

I'm not sure how to manage that. I feel like this is extraordinarily manipulative.

So... let's test your BPD "tea reading skills"... .explain the manipulation.  (I agree with your assessment by the way... it is a manipulation with a very specific goal... .I think).

So... what is the goal?

What is the healthy response?

I'll give you a hint.  Don't "enable" (but what does that look like?).  By the same token you don't "persecute" either.

The analogy is not perfect but he is trying to "hand you something" that he is supposed to carry.  It's not your job to toss it back at him.  It's not your job to make him carry it.  It IS your job to make sure YOU don't carry it.

We also know he will try to blame you for NOT carrying it... .and will likely refuse to acknowledge he should be carrying it.

Be ready for all this... .and be able to put those broad analogies into specifics for your situation and your relationship.

Remember to praise appropriately for taking positive steps.

FF

[WitzEndWife]

Following all of that, FF. I'm definitely not picking up what he's handing me, and I'm prepared for the fallout. I don't do enough praise of the "good" behavior, though (because I'm not good at that in general, except with the dogs).

I am going to definitely reward today's getting out and doing work stuff. It's a big relief to see him doing that on his own. That's not something he would have done in the past. I think he's growing up, a little bit.

[formflier]

  (because I'm not good at that in general, except with the dogs).

  I think he's growing up, a little bit.

He is growing up a bit.  I do think what you have done before had an impact to limit the current funk.

You should reward more and likely should do it in a more "understated way"... .I don't think that's contradictory.

"Hey... that means a lot to me... "  "Wow... .I appreciate that... "  "Oh my goodness... .thanks so much for thinking of me... ."  etc etc.

Personally... I found saying things like "I feel loved when you xyz... ." to get my wife fired up... .I suppose invalidated... .so I keep the word "love" out of it... .most of the time.  (you'll have to do trial and error to figure it out)

So... now we do a quick... perfunctory "love you babe... .or love you" when getting off the phone... .and that's about it.  Oddly enough... me pulling back on the "love thing" has resulted in her stepping up.  Sometimes she will whisper "I love you" at night or in the morning after a long snuggle session (non-sexual).  It seems very genuine.

OK... .do you "train" your dogs?  I'm likely going to cause some controversy with some, but I think the "thought process" used to train animals is helpful to apply with pwBPD.  In my case it's horses. 

Cat Familiar seems to be much more in touch... perhaps, with the "softer side" of training horses.  I always knew that you had to be in charge and let the horse know that... .don't tolerate disrespect (yes... .horses have ways to flip you the bird)   Perhaps another way to say it is I was pretty good with normal horses.  However, when my daughter was rehabilitating abused horses... or maybe neglected is a better term... .there was lots more patience required.

I think the same thought can be applied to pwBPD and "training them". 

Anyway... .i'll hush.  Cat Familiar can say it better.

FF

[formflier]

 
I am going to challenge you on one thing.

Explain the manipulation he is trying on you.  What is his goal?

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I don't do enough praise of the "good" behavior, though (because I'm not good at that in general, except with the dogs).

I am going to definitely reward today's getting out and doing work stuff. It's a big relief to see him doing that on his own. That's not something he would have done in the past. I think he's growing up, a little bit.

Like you, I'm really good with praising good behavior in my animal friends, and not so good at praising my husband. Now that I've realized that, I'm consciously striving to reinforce his efforts and he loves it.

It took a while to figure out how to do it without it being "over the top" or sounding insincere. Frankly, I don't think he would have noticed if it did sound insincere, but I want to be congruent and not feel like I'm either being phony or manipulative.

So I started praising him about things he was doing, such as telling him it was a good idea to look into an internet line of sight company after we've had so many problems with our DSL. And just saying things like "good idea", "smart", "really helpful" etc. and incorporating those words into my vocabulary has been a very positive step.

Not only has it made me more positive and cheery, it seems like he's a lot happier with me. And I can go into detail about how well he did something or what a wonderful idea he had, and even be effusively praising him and it's never too much. As an old Hawaiian man I knew when I was young said, "They eat it up like ice cream."

And for my husband, who grew up with constant criticism from his narcissistic dad, there was little praise to be had in his home. I can relate. My BPD mother criticized me relentlessly, calling it "constructive criticism," while I labeled it "destructive criticism."

[WitzEndWife]

I've trained horses and dogs, and it definitely seems easier to work with them than with BPD. LOL. At least, they're fairly predictable.

H has talked to two smaller brokerages in an effort to explore what's out there for him. On the one hand, I do want him to find the right fit, because that's important, but on the other hand, I don't want him to take so long with hemming and hawing over the right fit, that he never makes a decision.

Validating is really hard for me with him because I still feel resentful, and get really frustrated with him being controlling or invalidating of me. How do I get myself into a more "cheery" mode? When he does something good, I feel like, "Well, that's what he SHOULD be doing," instead of, "Yay! What a great thing he did!" I get more excited when the dog pees outside than I do when he gets out of bed and makes a move toward being productive. It sounds horrible, but it's true.

[Cat Familiar]

I've trained horses and dogs, and it definitely seems easier to work with them than with BPD. LOL. At least, they're fairly predictable.

Validating is really hard for me with him because I still feel resentful, and get really frustrated with him being controlling or invalidating of me. How do I get myself into a more "cheery" mode? When he does something good, I feel like, "Well, that's what he SHOULD be doing," instead of, "Yay! What a great thing he did!" I get more excited when the dog pees outside than I do when he gets out of bed and makes a move toward being productive. It sounds horrible, but it's true.

Yes, horses are definitely easier. I haven't had dogs since college, so no experience there, but cats are a walk in the park, other than clawing the furniture.

I had semi-loads of resentment and the trucks kept coming and dumping the resentment at my doorstep. Just recently I realized that so much of the resentment was carried over from my BPD mother and BPD ex-husband and it wasn't fair to have a knee-jerk response toward my current husband, who really is a kind person most of the time. The problem for me was that his behavior, as minor as it was at times, was so reminiscent of much worse that I'd experienced in the past.

If I apply the horse training metaphor to myself, I was a skittish mare, ready to blow up at slightly rough hands on the reins. (I never "blow up" with anger, it's just a simmering resentment held under the surface, which I try to mask, but is sensed by my BPDh.) Now I have a bit more "space" where I don't automatically flip into resentment. The emotional intelligence is starting to replace the reactivity.

I think to get to the "cheery" state, one needs to "fake it before you make it" and still be authentic, but give positive feedback in an honest way. Such as "You look really nice" after he finally took a shower. Or "That's great that you are investigating new firms."

Of course, you'll still feel like he SHOULD have been doing that long ago, but imagine how happy you are when the dog pees outdoors while you respond to the baby steps your husband is making in a good direction. That ought to bring a smile to your face while you're saying something positive to him.   

[formflier]

  The emotional intelligence is starting to replace the reactivity.
 

This seems to be the key to much of "getting to a better place" for us.

Being able to say... ."I don't feel like saying it... .yet something healthy like it anyway... .shows you are well on your way to a higher emotional intelligence.

That will do wonders for your life in general, as well as your r/s with your hubby.

FF

[WitzEndWife]

Cat Familiar - I seriously LOLd in my office thinking about imagining the dog peeing every time H does something positive. Haha. I needed that.

Yeah, they say to keep "love" alive in a marriage, you should touch more often. I don't willingly touch him, even if he touches me. But, I need to consciously "make" myself do it, even if I'm angry and on the defensive. I imagine that will also keep him from splitting as often. He frequently complains that I don't touch him or behave positively toward him anymore. It's true, I usually complain about his behavior much more than I praise. I definitely need to be more kind toward him. It's so hard when someone complains constantly about you and lashes out furiously if you say or do the "wrong" thing. But, maybe if I work toward being more kind, he will also be more kind.

Yep, distance, I need more of that.

[formflier]

Yeah, they say to keep "love" alive in a marriage, you should touch more often. I don't willingly touch him, even if he touches me. 

My relationship is much better, my wife seems calmer, when I "schedule" time in the day to snuggle.  Usually it's on the wake up side of things.

This is the type of thing where pragmatism is critical... .cuddling isn't my thing, but it works for something I want... .therefore...    

FF