Emotional abuse by BPD father to children

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Ive been posting since 2012 about incidents with the children.

I left him because of it, hoping it wouldnt happen any more I came back home in 2016. 2 years on its still going on. After I came back I realised after 2 months I had made a mistake,  I saw he was still emotionally messing with the kids and wont go back to having an intimate relationship or sharing a bedroom, so he is angry and upset about that, which means in turn he is still on and off mean to the kids now.

Our teenage kids are 14 and 16 now.

Hes so emotionally desperate, when we are occasionally alone and try to talk about the situation he will rant at me and cry and say I am sick, bad mother etc How he wants the family so much. How he loves me. It messes my head up so much. He wont listen to my protests about how his behaviour is unacceptable. He wont take any responsibility. Its all me and my lack of affection. He wont understand how bad I feel or why, so I feel emotionally abused as well.

This is the codependant dance thats been going on for 15 years now.

But something changed yesterday. Finally my 16 year old daughter who has extreme anxiety opened up to a school counsellor, for the first time ever, and that counsellor rang me and said two things. That from what my daughter told her about her Dad being aggressive, violent incidents between him and her brother last year which she witnessed and her Dad inappropriately "hugging" her it seemed a) clearly to be a situation of emotional abuse and b) I had a responsibility to protect her from it.

Its pushing me to stop prevaricating and hope the situation will get better, stop hoping he will suddenly see the light, to think having him as a dad is better than having no dad at all. I want to soeak to the counsellor again and see if there is any chance she felt it was bordering on sexual abuse, or its just hugging and a need for affection even though it might happen after he had been verbally abusive to her. From what I read here it is transference of his attachment to her as I have rejected him.

 Then I want to find the strenght to ask him again to leave and not take his refusal for an answer, to ask the courts to help me, or to leave myself again whatever the financial sacrifice.

A professional on my side who actually heard what my daughter said as being serious enough to say you have to do Something.

Only one friend of mine is brave enough to have constantly told me this and to repeatedly tell me to get him away from the children. Everyone else, including my family and his family just let things lie, they cant cope with the consequences. They have brushed off what I have told them over the years, frowning on my going back but leaving it as my choice.


My friend also says once I have him out of my life to never let him see the kids again. If I say that is extreme she says I am in denial.

Are there any parents on the forum who have any similar experiences?

I agree with leaving again but dont know how.

I dont know about stopping all contact with the kids. In the country where I live there is little chance of social services support, I am pretty alone in all this.

[Cmjo]

Ive been posting since 2012 about incidents with the children.

I left him because of it, hoping it wouldnt happen any more I came back home in 2016. 2 years on its still going on. After I came back I realised after 2 months I had made a mistake,  I saw he was still emotionally messing with the kids and wont go back to having an intimate relationship or sharing a bedroom, so he is angry and upset about that, which means in turn he is still on and off mean to the kids now.

Our teenage kids are 14 and 16 now.

Hes so emotionally desperate, when we are occasionally alone and try to talk about the situation he will rant at me and cry and say I am sick, bad mother etc How he wants the family so much. How he loves me. It messes my head up so much. He wont listen to my protests about how his behaviour is unacceptable. He wont take any responsibility. Its all me and my lack of affection. He wont understand how bad I feel or why, so I feel emotionally abused as well.

This is the codependant dance thats been going on for 15 years now.

But something changed yesterday. Finally my 16 year old daughter who has extreme anxiety opened up to a school counsellor, for the first time ever, and that counsellor rang me and said two things. That from what my daughter told her about her Dad being aggressive, violent incidents between him and her brother last year which she witnessed and her Dad inappropriately "hugging" her it seemed a) clearly to be a situation of emotional abuse and b) I had a responsibility to protect her from it.

Its pushing me to stop prevaricating and hope the situation will get better, stop hoping he will suddenly see the light, to think having him as a dad is better than having no dad at all. I want to soeak to the counsellor again and see if there is any chance she felt it was bordering on sexual abuse, or its just hugging and a need for affection even though it might happen after he had been verbally abusive to her. From what I read here it is transference of his attachment to her as I have rejected him.

 Then I want to find the strenght to ask him again to leave and not take his refusal for an answer, to ask the courts to help me, or to leave myself again whatever the financial sacrifice.

A professional on my side who actually heard what my daughter said as being serious enough to say you have to do Something.

Only one friend of mine is brave enough to have constantly told me this and to repeatedly tell me to get him away from the children. Everyone else, including my family and his family just let things lie, they cant cope with the consequences. They have brushed off what I have told them over the years, frowning on my going back but leaving it as my choice.


My friend also says once I have him out of my life to never let him see the kids again. If I say that is extreme she says I am in denial.

Are there any parents on the forum who have any similar experiences?

I agree with leaving again but dont know how.

I dont know about stopping all contact with the kids. In the country where I live there is little chance of social services support, I am pretty alone in all this.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Cmjo, I am under the impression that, in most states, a therapist who is aware of abuse involving a child has a duty to report it to the State, usually the Department of Children and Families, or some similar entity.  Perhaps your state has such a law?  It might be something to discuss with the school counselor.  LJ

[formflier]

So, did he move out and then you let him move back in or did you move out and move back in?  Trying to get details right in your story.

A big picture aside:  I would resist linking things.  He is abc so I will xyz.  Very easy to get into "tit for tat".  Do you see that about your story?  I move back, he is blank, therefore I will not blank, and he is angry.

Unlink all of that stuff.

Now, back to the point of your post.

My experience, (I have large family 8 kids).  My wife started taking corporal punishment too far.  She wouldn't listen to me about it.  I finally reported her to social services, long story short... that forced us into a counseling situation and there has been no more corporal punishment since then.

I say this to encourage you to ACT to protect your kids.  Personally, I'm not a fan of talking to your hubby about this to ask him to move out.  That would likely lead to an argument... which is likely normal for your relationship.  I would prefer ACT first and then talk in a counseling situation.

Please think all of that through before actually trying/doing any of that.  It sounds like you are in foreign country (not US) so perhaps there are different rules.  Is there a local womens/childrens shelter?

Perhaps the school counselor can suggest resources.

I wish I were more familiar with your story.

What I see is you moved back in and set up "trench warfare" with your hubby and there has been a couple year stalemate.  Perhaps this is the motivation to break the stalemate. 

Thoughts?

FF

[formflier]

My friend also says once I have him out of my life to never let him see the kids again. If I say that is extreme she says I am in denial.

 

I would find a local DV shelter and get advice.  This friend is likely well meaning, but I don't think the advice is practical.  Please talk to professionals about this.  Friends may or may not be the best source of support.

FF

[Cmjo]

Yes I moved out, suddenly in 2012, went into temporary accommodation rented nearby, nearly bankrupted paying rent etc, he never gave up asking when I was coming back... .so in the end I did. And trench warfare is a great word for it! Though not so much war, mainly living apart and not speaking much.

I agree this is what should make me break the stalemate.

I have read about covert incest and spousification today, so what he is doing with our daughter is clearly this, but its very occasional and sporadic. I think. But I wonder if there is more going on than I even know about?

I live in a country in Europe where social services are inefficient and underfunded, BPD is hardly known or recognised. I cant expect support there. I could go to court.

Emotional abuse is so hard to prove its hard to ACT on! I need to protect my daughter and keep him away from her. But She is very anxious and fragile, has been for years I think as a result of him, and its the first time she has opened up to a counsellor. If I act and go to court on the story she will know and take the blame for ever for whatever haopens to her Dad. He has threatened to kill himself before. He is in the house now I can hear him pacing upstairs talking to himself! I want to go and say can we talk, can you move out, but I know what will hapoen, he will start shouting and tell me I must be the one to get out.

[formflier]

Well... .perhaps you can PM me or other staff about what country you are in.  Perhaps that can help  us guide you.

I would reach out to a "lawyer" (whatever you call them) and I would reach out to a domestic violence shelter for women (if you have them).

Big picture:  You have outside "counseling professionals" telling you there are issues with your kids and their Dad.  If those issues go "unaddressed" that's not going to look good for you (in court or when others look at your situation).

Do you have a counselor for you... for the kids?

FF

[Radcliff]

Cmjo,

I am so sorry you are dealing with this complicated situation.  It would be easy to ignore it; I admire your courage to face it.

It sounds like this is not an emergency, like you have the time to find out what is really going on and carefully consider responses.  Is that true?

For the second meeting with the school counselor, can you talk to her face-to-face?  That makes it easier to talk and understand about difficult topics.

Does your daughter know that you talked to the school counselor?  It would be helpful to understand your daughter's experience, and how she feels.  She was there, and how she felt about it at the time, and how she feels now, is important.  I understand it is a sensitive topic.  I have three teenage daughters.  Sometimes it seems like raising any topic with a teenage daughter is difficult!  Do you think you might be able to find a way to talk to her?

WW

[formflier]

So, this is a suggestion to evaluate, not to take action on.

Can you afford to move out again?  Seems like there was a thought it was difficult, but it was doable.

I would suggest you evaluate what it cost before and make some budgets for now.  See if it still works.  I recommend putting all this in a spreadsheet or at least on paper.  Many time things, especially money, "looks" differently when you write it down (or type it out) in front of you.

Knowledge is power.  Start gathering more data to evaluate options.

FF

[Cmjo]

Thank you, I started the ball rolling spurred on by the fact of the counsellor giving me a wake up call and the knowledge my daughter acknowledges she is suffering because of her Dads behaviour, which I knew but didnt know how much. For her to speak to another adult is groundbreaking. Ive been reminded of my respnsibilities.

After weeks and months of silence and living separate lives it wasnt so hard to go to bodh today and said please can we separate once and for all for the sake of the childrens mental welfare, will you consider moving out. After 20 minutes of silence he said he wont move out, he will never move out he will die in this house. I have to pack my bags and go, he doesnt care where we go he doesnt want to know. I wrote him an email later saying it is for the best, and I have told family, could he speak to his? To not discuss this with the kids, asking if we couod speak again tomorrow.

I went to work, kept cool headed though feeling like Id been in a car crash. I rang both kids and warned them I had had a discussion with their Dad and he might be in a bad mood. Came home to find my father in law there, BPDh had told him to come to our house saying I had something to tell him. Its nearly 11pm, kids home and watching TV, bodh not here, who knows if he will even come home.

My plan is to talk to the counsellor face to face like you suggest, wait then for my daughter have the next scheduled meeting with her. Keep an eye on things and try to have regular talks with BPD asking if he will move out for the sake of the kids. I will give it a month, not expecting him to agree. And will take your advice to make a financial plan as a back up. But my daughter has big exams in June, I have to be realistic that there cant be any going to live in a shelter now, she needs stability but I will be trying to keep her away from her Dad as much as possible.

[formflier]

Growth and movement towards a healthier place comes from changing patterns.

As you seem to see, trench warfare has been the norm.  You each take up positions and lob shells at each other (figurative).

So, with the issue of him moving out... .have you changed your pattern? 

Does your plan look like more trench warfare or something else?  Stay big picture with me as you think about this.

Does what your husband said match what you expected him to say?
Does it match his past behavior?
Is there anything in his life that has changed, that would give you ANY reason to believe he will change his mind?
 

Depending on your answers, I will have some advice about moving forward in a way that looks different from the past.

Kudos for taking steps.       Let's think things through.


FF

[Cmjo]

For a few minutes I thought he was going to agree to move out or at least explore it, but soon he reacted as expected in that he plans to never leave the house, his father built it. Not even if it means the kids being uprooted again. Yes predictable. Yes you are right nothing has changed that would make him behave differently.

[formflier]

his father built it.

So... you asked.  Is there any reason to ever bring this up to him again?

Please "take them at their word", even when it is an answer you don't want to hear.

So, if you assume that history will repeat itself and he won't leave.  Where does that leave you?  If you need to take action based on the school counselor, what does that look like?

FF

[Dignity&Strength]

Goodness, there is a lot in our stories that's similar, only our kids are different ages. What a life of tangled chaos we live through each day, trying to balance what's best for our kids and what is truly, financially, logistically possible.

Blessings to you on this path. May you find favor, support, clarity and provision, to know what to do and or when. Although, I personally wish the path would miraculously turn golden with beautiful flowers, instead of scary and crumbly with potholes.

Dig

[Cmjo]

So, if you assume that history will repeat itself and he won't leave.  Where does that leave you?  If you need to take action based on the school counselor, what does that look like?

FF

I think there are three options. The first, that I have never tried before is not to back down straight away by bullying and pack my bags and run like last time. If I stick to my request and repeat it for a month, maybe with the support of friends and family asking him he just might run off himself, though would be hard for him to cope and we could have a situation of suicide threats and total breakdown... .

The second is to try through legal means, very difficult and most high risk because he could risk his job in the police

The third is I leave again.

Im not able to do either of the second two until my daughter has finished her exams.

[patientandclear]

Emotional abuse is so hard to prove its hard to ACT on! I need to protect my daughter and keep him away from her. But She is very anxious and fragile, has been for years I think as a result of him, and its the first time she has opened up to a counsellor. If I act and go to court on the story she will know and take the blame for ever for whatever haopens to her Dad. He has threatened to kill himself before. He is in the house now I can hear him pacing upstairs talking to himself! I want to go and say can we talk, can you move out, but I know what will hapoen, he will start shouting and tell me I must be the one to get out.

It sounds from later posts as if you’ve perhaps moved past being stuck on this point. But wanted to flag it in case you find it popping back up in your thinking.

I urge you not to assume how your daughter will react if you protect her. It’s quite possible she is crying out for you to take that step. She told a counselor—as you noted, a huge step she decided to take.  Kids often wonder why the other parent does NOT act to prevent abuse of themselves or their siblings.

[formflier]

What do you mean by "packing bags an run?"

Is there a negative connotation to you leaving? 



Next.  What will "support of others" look like over the next month?.

FF

[Cmjo]

What do you mean by "packing bags an run?"

Is there a negative connotation to you leaving? 



Next.  What will "support of others" look like over the next month?.

FF

I dont know if I meant that negatively, its a fact of what happened last time, I ran to take the kids away because I was shocked at the escalation of the kids being ignored and neglected at age 9 and 10.

Suport of others... I only have as close family my brother and father. I rang my brother and he said oh my goodness, you mean you want to leave because a counsellor told you to? He seemed to think it ridiculous and I should sit down with BPDh and work out how to fix it. I rang my dad and said I was very down but he said oh no I dont want you to crack up I rely heavily on you. He waits for me to ring him, he doesnt ring me as I live abroad and its expensive. I believe my Dad is a narcissist, my brother is emotionally stunted, he cant fathom what emotional abuse or mental illness are. Both my Dad and brother think its my fault. I dont really even want to speak to either right now.

I have friends, aunt and cousin who I feel are supportive and will back me.

Since I told BPDh yesterday I want him to leave I havent seen him, he didnt come home last night. I rang today to see if he is OK he didnt answer the phone. He didnt answer my email. Its late evening here and he probably isnt planning to come back tonight either, I have no idea where he could be. Both kids have been very moody today, my son rude and sullen, my daughter hysterical because she found her home work impossible. When I mention their Dad they wont speak about it, so I dont know how much they are affected by this new development.

[formflier]

My thought.  You have made your wishes known.  I can't think of a good reason to make them known again... .or to have others make them on your behalf.

I would be more interested in your opinion about safety of the kids, vice the opinions of others.


FF

[Radcliff]

Cmjo, you are getting good advice here.  I wanted to say a couple of additional things.  I can related to how you feel about wanting to not disturb your daughter before her exams.  When my situation with domestic violence and control was peaking last fall, my D17 was in the middle of her university applications.  She takes her studies very seriously, and has big dreams, and my BPDw is a major part of her support system and her main source of advice on the applications.  On the other hand, D12 was witnessing worsening incidents, so I was in the awful situation of needing to balance D12's well being against D17's well being.  

In your instance, you may be balancing your daughter's need for emotional and physical safety with her need for stability before the exams.  Recently, I had a question I was trying to figure out about how to arrange supervisors for D12's visits with her mom.  I was very stressed about figuring it out in the best way for D12, and then defending that to my wife.  But then I realized that I should just ask D12.  I listened to how she felt about the situation, and made a couple of decisions based on how she felt.  Knowing what she wanted gave me clarity and purpose.  I felt like a burden was lifted and I had a much easier time following through on the decision.  Can you talk to your daughter and ask her what environment she would feel safest and most productive in?  I would try to do it in a way so she knows that you will take the heat for any decisions, that it is your job to stand up and create the right environment for her, but that you need her help to understand what would work best for her.  You could also have a similar conversation with your son.

Another thing I wanted to mention is that "abuse" exists on a continuum.  That continuum includes healthy behavior, unhealthy behavior, and abuse.  It sounds like it's still a little unclear what has happened between your husband and your daughter.  Let me take a little bit of a detour and say that when things with my wife were becoming increasingly difficult, part of me wished that she would actually use a weapon, do something I needed medical treatment for, or otherwise make it obvious that I needed to leave.  I'm embarrassed to admit it, but I could not see a way out of the misery of our stalemate.  It was so hard to understand when things added up to "enough" to take action, especially because I'd been living like that for years.

So, consider that your daughter speaking out to a counselor may be as much about the entire weight of the unhealthiness in your family as about one or two specific incidents.  Of course, you need to understand if there were any serious incidents and not minimize them, but the totality of the unhealthiness can be just as damaging, or more damaging.  I am not suggesting that you go, that is your decision, and there may be a path involving staying and insisting on positive change (it is truly not for me to say, I'm just supporting you in either direction you feel is best).  But I would advocate against continuing the stalemate.  I have lived the stalemate for years, and feel much better about a path to healing.

WW

[Cmjo]

My thought.  You have made your wishes known.  I can't think of a good reason to make them known again... .or to have others make them on your behalf.

I would be more interested in your opinion about safety of the kids, vice the opinions of others.


FF

I felt I should make my wishes known again because the pattern has been I ask for change, he shouts, then we dont speak, then we carry on as usual as Im too tired to push it. In a way Im suppose Im bullied to not see things through.

So I did say it again this morning that I wanted him to leave and got the same torrent of abuse and repeat of he wont go.

He then rang his father who rang me to say its his house too, his father sympathises to a point and said dont do anything rash hes going to see a new doctor.

I try to explain to his father, that its gone too far for too long, that Im concerned at the safety of the children. I am concerned and the ohone call with the counsellor and my daughter speaking out was the turning point. I have been fighting others for a long time who say, its not that serious, the kids are fine, its better for them to live with both of you than separate.

 But you asked for my opinion not theirs. Im worried there will be more violent incidents with our son. Im worried that our daughter wont be able to feel better in herself if there is the pressure on him being around.

This weekend he didnt come home for 2 nights and the atmosphere in the house was great! It was a relief. We felt happy!

[formflier]

Is there any history you can point to in your relationship of being repetitive with a request and having him/them agree to it? 

Can you take them at their word?

There is a big picture "rule" or guidance that says focus more on actions and less on words.  Also to focus on what you can control and less on what you can't.

Can you see how that big picture thing applies here?

FF

[Cmjo]

I cant think of anything I have asked that has been agreed to.

And of course if he did say yes he might not stick to it.

Even if I go it would be impossible to agree any rules for kids visits, maintenance etc. That was chaotic last time and its one of the things that broke me down to go back.

So really the only option is starting court proceedings for an agreement on kids stuff (we are not married so no need for divorce or separation).I tried last time and a lawyer wrote to him but he didnt reply

Actually filing that and getting a court date could be an incentive for him to get his head out of the sand. Though judging by what happened in his divorce after his wife left, his Dad would step in and pay the maintenance to lessen his sons pain. Today his dad rang me and begged me not to go to social services.

I understand about the big picture, words are useless, he doesnt listen to mine, his are irrational and cruel. But what actions? Court?

[formflier]

But what actions? Court?

What actions worked last time?  Did the words work last time?  (2 years ago... roughly... is what I am asking about)

FF

[GaGrl]

What level of influence does your SO's father have with him?

It sounds as if you have some leverage right now.

[Radcliff]

I'm worried there will be more violent incidents with our son.

I'm sorry if I've missed details that you've told earlier, but can you please tell us more about past violent incidents with your son?  How many?  What was the worst?  When did it happen?  What was the most recent?  When did it happen?

WW

[formflier]

One of the big advantages of an anonymous forum is the ability to be open with the good and the bad without being judged or "told what to do".

We can guide and help you think about the issue in alternate ways, but ultimately the choices are yours.

I think it would be helpful for you to make a post about the bad stuff, the reasons you would go.

Towards you and each of the kids.

I would also make an inventory of the good, towards you and each of the kids.

Many times doing an inventory like that can reveal patterns.  Perhaps that can be used to your benefit.

Thoughts?

FF

[Dignity&Strength]

Hi,
"Actually filing that and getting a court date could be an incentive for him to get his head out of the sand."

I've had this thought before. Ultimately, I reminded myself that NOTHING I do can be counted on to get him to do anything. Since court has unpredictability and comes with consequences I might not be able to live with,  I made myself have a different motive than that. But I DO have that desire very often! And some people make that choice, for that reason because they decide they can live with whatever happens in court. I always love a nice hot shower to sort out my values and priorities, and options. It's major complicated relational chess. But in the end, I found myself. The strength and ability to make my own choices and live with the consequences. I LOVE ❤️ the "no stay or run" reminders here!
Dig.

[Cmjo]

What actions worked last time?  Did the words work last time?  (2 years ago... roughly... is what I am asking about)

FF

Moving out with one suitcase and staying away three years didnt work. He didnt change. Words, spoken, email, letters had no effect. He didnt answer, or if he did it was ranting.

[Cmjo]

What level of influence does your SO's father have with him?

It sounds as if you have some leverage right now.

His father walks on eggshells. He told me he is taking BPDh to a new doctor.  He probably has told him to behave himself.  But I begged him to ask BPDh to go and stay with him for a while, his father said no that would lead to BPDh having a breakdown? I understand he wants  to protect his son. I told him I need to protect my children but he accuses me of overeacting, says the children are fine. Told me I cannot ask BPDh to leave, its his house too.

But his father in laws behaviour is also very odd. He speaks for his son who is 51. BPDh cannot speak to me himself, I am negotiating the whole breakup through his Dad. He wants us to keep the status quo no matter how bad. He has seen two previous relationships of BPDh end in conflictual breakup, I believe for years after BPDh's exwife ledt it was his father that sent her alimony every month. So he must know his son has the mental age of a two year old.

the words of the counsellor of emotional abuse in the front of my mind.

[Cmjo]

I'm sorry if I've missed details that you've told earlier, but can you please tell us more about past violent incidents with your son?  How many?  What was the worst?  When did it happen?  What was the most recent?  When did it happen?

WW

Listing the bad as well as the good stuff is a good idea.

Violent episodes with son. Aged 14.

I think over the past year there have been maybe four. But at no stage has anyone been hurt but it gets very close and is frightening and aggressive.

These involve BPDh starting with criticism, for example about not liking his sons friends, or why he doesnt bring anyone home, or his low grades, and he gradually gets more and more aggressive, ranting until our son explodes or cries. I have always been there, desperately trying to get one of them to leave the room. I see BPD actually goading, saying more and more nasty things in a crescendo, egging his son to explode and even saying he should hit him. I even said "you are trying to provoke him" and he said "oh like women are blamed for provoking men by wearing a short skirt".

So twice my son did lose control and lunged for him. I got in the middle and was trying to keep them apart and I was scared. As his son tries to hit him his Dad keeps on with the verbal goading. After one incident last July I wrote to him the next days and said I cant stand the conflict and I want him to move out. Ignored me.

In the last incident we were in a hotel room in New Zealand and BPDh was shouting atbthe top of his voice, repeating about 50 times at his son "you piece of s*** ass". Up very close to him inviting his son to hit him. Daughter also there shocked and crying. Im desperately trying to get us all out of there, think about calling police its so heavy. Cant go near BPD as he is a big guy, I tried to stop him coming out of our bedroom by shutting the door so he would stay in, knowing he was going to verbally attack our son but he just roughly forced the door back open and carried on. Ended with son crying his eyes out. And the next day his Dad acts as though nothing happened and asks why his son isnt smiling or doesnt come and give him a hug. We are all in shock for days and I feel completely powerless.