Home page of BPDFamily.com, online relationship supportMember registration here
March 28, 2024, 02:33:21 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Board Admins: Kells76, Once Removed, Turkish
Senior Ambassadors: Cat Familiar, EyesUp, SinisterComplex
  Help!   Boards   Please Donate Login to Post New?--Click here to register  
bing
Books most popular with members
104
Stop Caretaking the
Borderline or the Narcassist
Stop Walking
on Eggshells
Journey from
Abandonment to Healing
The Search for Real Self
Unmasking Personality Disorders

Pages: [1] 2 3  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: She called me "my ex boyfriend Joe" but she can't move out  (Read 865 times)
JoeBPD81
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 709



WWW
« on: February 09, 2018, 03:01:18 AM »

Yesterday it was my last College exam for this semester. I hadn't studies much the last 3 days because the kids were with the flu, and I couldn't leave.

I had the exam in the evening, so I went out to study intensively for the day. After some silence, she kept texting me about how wrong it is that we keep trying to be together, how it was a mistake to try, how I don't get her... .That she's gonna keep trying to talk to her ex-husband to drop the kids with him, because she is a failure as mother, and they have to be away from her influence.

Bear in mind that we fought 3 years to get the custody for her. I was by her side all this time, and I spent my money on it. The ex is alcoholic, abusive, and too old to take care of two hyperactive kids. On top of all, he has no interest at all, he hasn't called them, or visit, or want their visit even when we take them to his front door.

If he gets them, he's gonna give them to the system. And no jugde would give them back to her, when she's renounced them to the ex after the court grant the custody to her. It is a decission with no return. She's suicidal already, and she says she's gonna be 10000 times worse without the kids.

But she can't stand living with me. She can't stand depending on me. She can't stand hurting me and being abusive in front of the kids and setting that example. She can't stand how "weak, and dirty and unworthy" she was for falling in love with me, and wanting "a guy". She says she changed so much in order to attract me, that she changed into someone she completelly hates.

I tell her I've been acomodating, and supportive, and encouraging, I helped her to survive and have a chance at being free, independent. I'm not her enemy. She takes every line like that and answers: You want to save your ass, to be the better man, you are always right and I'm wrong, it gets old, I'm tired of telling you it's all my fault, I'm damaged, I'm flawed, I'm crazy, it has nothing to do with you, it has to do with me, and it's very humillliating having to repeat this over and over again.

The exchanges go like that:
GF- I'm so mad that you are in the kitchen.
Me- But I'm here, on the other side, in the bathroom.
Gf- Yeah, you are so perfect, and I'm guilty of everything. Why do you need me to humiliate myself like this?

2 years later: Gf- When I remember when you were in the kitchen, I get so mad I want to kick you in the balls.

Please, tell me you understand that I'm not telling her I'm right, just that I'm not in her way, and she can stop being mad and just go in the kitchen.

I can't go and re-read that "ex-boyfriend" text again, I'm broken, I went into the exam crying, I left crying and walked a long way like a zombie, walking like a 90 year old drunk, bumping into things and people and not being able to care. I wanted to drop to the floor and not move or talk again.

I think I can take a break up, I could even welcome it. But she's gonna end up dead, and the kids, my family, are going to lose their lives. Their father already had two older kids, one in a psychiatric ward in and out, with multiple suicide attemps, and one given to a foster family. The kids, MY kids, are terrified of him.

Logged

We are in this together.
Harley Quinn
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 2839


I am exactly where I need to be, right now.


« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2018, 05:19:34 AM »

Joe I'm replying on the go, so will come back to say more to you when I can. I just want to let you know you're not alone in this and that we're here to help you work through. It sounds like what you're dealing with here is increasingly becoming a practical problem requiring practical solutions and it may be wise to also put a post on Family Law to see what advice can be given there.

How did you find the exam itself? Were you able to answer the questions and focus for the time you were there? You've put a great deal of effort into this and I'm so sorry to hear that you were put in this awfully upsetting situation at such a crucial time for you. I'm afraid that your gf is unable to see past her own crisis to be able to understand her impact on you. In an ideal r/s our partners would be supportive of us when we are at such an important point in our lives. That's not something that can be relied upon in a BPD r/s and puts a real strain on the non partner. What options do you have if the exam has been affected by an emotional crisis? It might be worth speaking to someone now to establish your best course of action should you find the result doesn't reflect your efforts.

I know others will join with support, so I'll leave it at that for now, but feel your anguish and pain in your post. Hang in there Joe. The exam pressure is off now, but the time you've been carving out for yourself is ever important. Being immersed in the r/s without time to weigh up actions and take care of yourself isn't going to be helpful so do what you must to ensure some downtime still.  

Love and light x
Logged

We are stars wrapped in skin.  The light you are looking for has always been within.
Notwendy
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Posts: 10440



« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2018, 05:36:58 AM »

Joe, this is tough.

I don't know your whole situation or how to fix it but wanted to say I see some JADE in your responses to her.

GF- I'm so mad that you are in the kitchen.
Me- But I'm here, on the other side, in the bathroom.
Gf- Yeah, you are so perfect, and I'm guilty of everything. Why do you need me to humiliate myself like this?


I tell her I've been acomodating, and supportive, and encouraging, I helped her to survive and have a chance at being free, independent. I'm not her enemy. She takes every line like that and answers: You want to save your ass, to be the better man, you are always right and I'm wrong, it gets old, I'm tired of telling you it's all my fault, I'm damaged, I'm flawed, I'm crazy, it has nothing to do with you, it has to do with me, and it's very humilliating having to repeat this over and over again.


JADE ( even if you are right) can be very triggering.

This is my take on these conversations ( and not really knowing all of it). When she gets into you, it is in a sense a way to get your focus- negative or positive is still focus. At some level, she has to feel a poor self esteem. One thing I learned from co-dependency work is that rescuing behavior can also potentiate resentment on the part of the one being rescued and the rescuer- even if it is a situation where it was necessary for survival as it seems to be the case with your GF.

As much as it hurts to hear her accusations, and how tempting it is to JADE, what is she actually saying?

"I feel so much less than you"

And when you JADE, you actually point out how "wrong" she is ( because the accusation may be wrong). She hears that you are more concerned with pointing out your being right and her being wrong than to hear what she said in terms of feeling. When this happens, it escalates your situation as in the moment, she can't stand to be feeling more less than you and the only solution she is thinking in the moment is to not be with you.

You do a lot for her,  but the other side of doing so much for a person is it diminishes their sense of competence. She has a disorder, which makes it hard, and then she also lives with someone way more competent than she is.

How do I sense this? I observed this between my parents. My mother is severely BPD and it appeared that my father did everything for her and I don't think she could survive on her own. She has many good qualities- she's actually very intelligent, but her BPD leaves her functionally disabled. My father, and then her kids, grew up doing just about everything for her and it became apparent that her children were more competent at tasks than she is. I eventually realized that she knew this, but it was so hard on her self esteem, she preferred to pretend she was competent- have us do things for her and then she'd say to others that she did it. It took me a long time to be able to listen to her from her point of view without being "triggered" myself. How could she be so ungrateful? But doing too much for someone takes away their self esteem and creates resentment.

This doesn't mean you toss your GF out on her own. I certainly wouldn't suggest that for my mother. One day my parents were visiting and my kids were little and getting rowdy. I had been in the habit of doing for my mother, not asking her for anything, but this time, I asked her if she could make the kids sandwiches. Had I asked her to make me one she'd probably act up, ( so much baggage between us) but I think the request somehow made her feel needed and she seemed pleased.  It must have been decades since she felt that, as we all looked at her as somehow pathetic and damaged. ( we didn't know about BPD for a long time).

It must feel pretty bad to feel pathetic and damaged.

I know it is hard, but perhaps trying to not listen to what she says about you, but the feelings behind it. You can't fix the feelings, but trying not to JADE may let her express them and not escalate things. Also, you do a lot for her and probably better than she can- but are there spaces you can step back and let her try doing some things?
Logged
JoeBPD81
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 709



WWW
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2018, 06:21:46 AM »

I know all that, trully.

The problem is that when I'm validating, and I don't engage, she still won't go in the kitchen, because she believes I'm there.

My point is not for her to know that I do a lot for her. I'm a ghost at my own home. My point is that she knows I'm not on her way.

I engage when I am at the end of my rope. When I see her suffer so much for things that I didn't do, and those things don't go away in months of years.

And here I am, JADEing to you.
Logged

We are in this together.
Notwendy
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Posts: 10440



« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2018, 06:48:12 AM »

Yup!
 

Looking at the drama triangle. - when you bring up all the things you do for her, it puts you in victim mode. She is approaching you feeling bad about yourself- and she is feeling in victim mode.

There was a great line in a David Bowie song. " Putting out the fire with gasoline". If the drama triangle was a fire, JADE would be like throwing gasoline on it.

I understand being pushed to feeling at the end of the rope. It must feel bad to think she can't go in a room with you. Consider in that moment, she is feeling shamed triggered and may need to get a grip on herself. I don't suggest moving our or breaking up-but maybe in these moments she needs some space- to not be in the same room as you or to avoid you when she is feeling shamed. Maybe her feelings are more about her than you- and she is trying to cope with feeling triggered. This makes you feel rejected but it may not be all about that.

Logged
JoeBPD81
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 709



WWW
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2018, 07:19:13 AM »

She sees no improvement, no hope, and more and more undeserved resentment towards me. She doesn't think she's punishing us, but freeing us from her presence. She is seeing that the kids watching our dinamic is very harmful, and as she is not anticipating any improvement... .

I give her all the space in the world. I study at my car! with gloves and a hat, because it's freezing. I do free extra hours at work, just to not cross paths with her at home. I don't linger around her, nor expect her to say, or answer good morning, or good night. I can't give her more space unless I move out myself.

Logged

We are in this together.
Skip
Site Director
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 8817


« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2018, 07:34:39 AM »

I know all that, truly.

Good. That will help in sorting this. Notwendy has mapped it pretty well.

Sounds like she is melting down... .ready to punish herself, you, the kids.

Do you know what happened in her world to drive this?

And switching away from her for a minute, because you are the second wounded human being in this relationship. There is some melting down on your side - sick children, exam pressure, no time to study, no spousal support, threats of family destruction. Stress is stress and no matter how well we intellectualize it and when stress points pile up on our shoulder we eventually our knees buckle - and down, down, we go.

Even the Twin Towers in New York could be brought down... .


Controversial Sculpture by Eric Fischl

I agree with Notwendy analysis of your wife and the dynamics there.  And I agree with you that you can't save anyone else when you are going down yourself... .

Is there anything you can do to find respite? Can you send her off to mum for a week to rest herself and you can rest two? Maybe she takes one child you keep the other (so that this isn't a breakup)... .

Do you have any thoughts on something like this that you can do?

We're here for you, man.
Logged

 
JoeBPD81
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 709



WWW
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2018, 07:40:52 AM »

Her mother bought a dog the minute they left her house. She can't visit more than 10 minutes, or she ends up at the ER. Let alone a weekend. Kids get sick too, only not as bad as her.

I'd have to leave, which will put more presure on everyone. I've thought about it. Having to lie or explain to my family is something that would stress me way more, not less. No one knows she's BPD.

At least the kids want me there. So, I spend time with them, now that I can park the studies for some days.

She has no-one to go to. That's why she lives with the hardest person for her to live with.
Logged

We are in this together.
Skip
Site Director
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 8817


« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2018, 08:06:42 AM »

She has no-one to go to. That's why she lives with the hardest person for her to live with.

There is no one in the world she can visit for a week? Maybe extreme exercise camp? (kidding)? Barcelona's Disney World?

You leaving is not a good idea... .it rewards bad behavior.

Be creative. What can you do?
Logged

 
Harley Quinn
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 2839


I am exactly where I need to be, right now.


« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2018, 08:57:44 AM »

I agree with SkipNot Wendy has some excellent points and is giving you great advice for the long term in how things might be turned around.  Right now, you need some space to gather yourself and take a breath.  We all need that sometimes. 

What's the reason that your family are unaware of your partner's BPD?  Do they spend any time with the two of you and the kids?  Maybe they have more of an idea than you know?  I was going to ask if maybe she could go stay with your family if they are close but it doesn't sound as though that's the case.  Does she have any friends/siblings?  A change of scenery might do her a world of good as well as giving you a break to recharge.

Love and light x 
Logged

We are stars wrapped in skin.  The light you are looking for has always been within.
Radcliff
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 3377


Fond memories, fella.


« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2018, 10:49:05 AM »

Joe,

I'm so sorry that you're under such an immense amount of stress.

While we will give you advice on how we think you might raise your game, for example by lessening JADE, we are limited in how much context we can understand.  Things like tone of voice matter.  We cannot hear your tone, and things like "I'm on the other side" can be said in a JADE tone or not in a JADE tone.  It sounds like you are bending over backwards to be accommodating and stay out of her way.  In fact, I am sure that you are contorted into a pretzel.  At some point, things get so bad that it seems like it is difficult to do anything right.  Just looking at you may trigger her.  And that feels terrible.

I have a feeling you need to improve your local support system.  Do you have folks there who you can lean on for support?  Perhaps someone a few years older who can help you consider the laws of your country and how best to protect the kids?  I'm sorry for my ignorance, but is your dad living, and are you able to talk to him about things like this?  Any uncles or older relatives you can talk to?

WW
Logged
heartandwhole
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 3592



« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2018, 11:48:12 AM »

JoeBPD81,

Im so sorry this is happening. I can completely understand how low you must be feeling.  . I know it doesn’t feel like it now, but this can turn around for you, and get better. Please don’t give up on yourself. In your shoes, I’d feel similarly—afraid that my partner would fall apart, or worse, if I left. But people often surprise us, when confronted with the responsibility for their lives and choices.

You are getting excellent advice in this thread, so I’ll simply say keep posting and reaching out. We are listening and we care.

heartandwhole
Logged


When the pain of love increases your joy, roses and lilies fill the garden of your soul.
JoeBPD81
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 709



WWW
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2018, 06:20:06 PM »

Thanks everyone,

There are a lot of questions... .Although not as many answers that I could give.

By the way, the kitchen example is not real, it is an example of the structure of the conversations. To illustrate that it can be something so domestic and shallow, and so easily seen if you are getting mad at something that it's not there. And how after checking that it's not true, she remembers it months later as if it had been.

Once I told her she had great legs. She interpreted great as "big", so I was a cruel a-hole calling her fat. I was always praising her legs and caressing and kissing them if I had the chance. I loved them. I was crazy about her. It made absolutely no sense that anyone would mean big when they say great in that context, and least of all, me. This was before knowing about BPD or even her anorexia. Then I argued back a lot. I couldn't believe she wouldn't be convinced that I meant beautiful legs. All the other previous times I had said something positive about them, it got reinterpreted as lies in the light of the new impression. So I was insensitive, and a liar. Instead of the other way around: "I have hundreds of pieces of  evidence to know he loves my legs, so this interpretation must be misled". Three years later she gets absolutely mad when she remembers this.

So "cruel,insensitive, liar... ." were labels that she was hanging on me, and they accumulated, when they were all based in untrue things. I felt her getting away and fighting me back based on those interpretations, accumulated. My understanding was that she is disliking this guy more and more, and that guy is not me. If she knew I wasn't like that, she wouldn't need to dislike me or fear me. She never believed me, so she ended up forgiving (but not forgetting) things that I didn't do, in order to keep going. This made me crazy. How could she love the guy she thought I was? Does this mean she doesn't love me?

At this point all the good things she sees in me, are in a different dimension from the things she thinks about me. I make no sense to her, because half of her image is false.

She got mad ,because she thought I wouldn't stay with the kids while she went to the doctor,without asking me. Something I always do. She assumed I wouldn't, and then got mad, and told me she was mad. And told me that she no longer wanted me to stay with the kids (in a rude tone in front of them). When she had never given me the chance of saying "of course I will".

I am tired. And I get offended after so much dealing with me as if I was that guy. Insensitive, liar, sneaky, selfish, sarcastic, fake, cruel, cheating, womanizer, horny, spiteful, revengeful (is that a word?), uncaring... .Even gay, girly!, oversensitive, coward... .All of that based on different lies. And I have my own true flaws to add to the fake ones!

After a hundred times I can't keep thinking about her feelings and her triggers. And once in a hundred, I explode, and I JADE and I compare what she does with what I do,and I take weeks of progress to the trash. I lose control. I get 5% of the rage she has towards me, but the consequences are way worse. I would never hit her, or insult her. But I tell her she is wrong, or that she is mad about something I do when she does it to me tenfold, everyday.

----

The exam was just a semester, I could take it again in September, it is not important in the big picture. But I think it went well, considering. I wasn't in my brightest moment but they can tell I studied. It was 4 essays, so it depends on how they like what I wrote,it's not an objective thing. Thanks for asking.
------

The 3 of them have a complex that they are not wanted anywhere, the kids are noisy, unruly, can't learn manners,  and they break and stain things wherever they go. All kids do! but these take things over the limit, and they are used to hear a lot "shut up" "that is wrong" "that is unbearable"... .Their own father has told them to their faces that he doesn't want to see them again. Their other relatives, grandma and aunts, they get tired after 2 minutes, and they avoid their presence all year long. When they see them, it's complaint after complaint. Their very poor impulse control gets them in trouble also at the school, and with friends. They are labeled as weird short-tempered and immature by kids their own age. Their mum feels these rejections amplified.

She prefers not to expose herself to people, at all. She has severe social anxiety. She thinks no one could like her company. And she can't even believe that I want to be with her or them for real.

She doesn't believe friends would like to see her.  And she doesn't want to burden anyone with talk  of her problems. In time this has made that there isn't anyone around, she has no friends.

The sister is very treacherous. She planted doubts about me in the beginning, about the chance that I could be cheating, that hurted us forever since. She would talk about food and clothes,sizes, etc when my GF is anorexic and gets triggered and very sick after hearing that. Even after asking specifically not to do that, she kept on doing it. She lives in a 4 bedroom flat, rent free (their grandmother owns the flat) that was completely empty when my gf reported her ex-husband for abuse to her and the older kid. She asked the grandmother to rent that flat, and was told no, homeless and with 2 kids (2 and 6 then), because the plan was to give it for free to the sister,who has no kids and a good job. When my gf's washing machine broke (you know how much laundry 2 kids need) she wasn't even allowed to go there to wash the clothes. The flat is upstairs from her mother's.

Her father is an exconvict, we know he has money, has several houses, and shady businesses. She asked him for help once, for some cash and/or help getting any job. And he laught and told her what she needed was a feminist lawyer. He has no permanent residence, that we know of. We never know when he's even in the country.

To illustrate how her family seems like an unreal nightmare, the mother gave her sister, for her name-day the payment for a full year car insurance (remember,the sister with job and no rent to pay or kids to feed). The same year, to my GF who slept on her floor in the same room with her kids,she gave some cash to have a coffee and leave her alone for an hour.

So,no, there is no support at all from them, and many traumas, revolting and frightening abuse. And when your own family and husband has treated you like that, you expect that every person is a monster.

We spend more than we earn without any luxury. So we can't afford a trip, or a stay at a hotel.

My family has taken them with open arms. The kids love their cousins and playing with them. But family gatherings stress my GF to scary highs. When she comes, she loves it, and she is relaxed and happy afterwards. But the previous 4 days are hell for her and me. And many times she cancels, or she comes telling me we are done, and we won't see each other anymore after that.

She has a big issue with privacy. She hates the idea that I could be talking about her. And her diagnosis is a secret outside the couple and the T. It is not my secret to tell. My family is nice,but they are not invested to the point of understanding. They avoid getting into uncomfortable conversations. They either give me a pat in the back, or suggest I leave them. They would say things like "tell her to not be silly" "tell her she has to eat"... .They are all strong old fashion Catholics that don't believe in depression or psychology in general. This goes way over their heads.

I had only one personal conversation with my dad, and it was about the evil of masturbation before I knew what it meant. I was like  He hasn't been close to any of his kids. When I've tried to get serious with them, they get uncomfortable and quickly change the subject. I was never able to connect with them. For years my mother thought I was on drugs, when I don't even smoke tobacco or drink past a beer. I don't speak, I'm introvert, so they can't figure me out, and it makes them uncomfortable. Even when I went to church regularly and even taught catechism.

So betraying my gf's secret when I know they are not going to care enough to understand, it is not worth it. If I scare them as often as she scares me, about leaving, or killing herself, they wouldn't have any faith in our relationship. And they wouldn't be as nice to her or the kids. Same goes for my friends. I don't want us to be seen as "Joe and the woman who's abusing him". Of course people suspect, but they can't imagine. Some friends who I confided with,without mentioning BPD, they ended up saying "this is too complicated for me, sorry", and went no contact, as if drama were contagious.

She wasn't like this when I met her. And all the people in her life had left her before the rage came to be. She was sad and introvert. But she was polite, and sweet, and helpful. Her father left the family (to go to prison, she later learned) and she blamed herself. I wanted to be the one that didn't left, but she makes it really hard, she fights me every step of the way.

She was polite today, in a distant way, and she threw a couple of baits, but I didn't bite/JADE.

Stopping the JADEing has help me a lot in the past. But at this point I have no say in their future. I can't force them to stay, I can't claim the kids of my GF.

I can't change things, so I come here for support and understanding. I don't see how after a long time of letting go your anger against one person, you can go back to love them or feeling attracted to them, after being afraid or even disgusted. I almost have no hope of being a couple again. But I would like her not to die. And the thing keeping her alive are the kids, and the kids want me in their lives.

I know I can make things more livable, for me and her. But in order to be a couple, it would have to be something that she at least wants to try. If she doesn't want to be my GF, then I'm just a friend helping out.

But who knows, we've been here before. And somehow she convinces me again that she loves me. So I can't say this is the end for sure, although it feels like it.
Logged

We are in this together.
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2018, 06:38:56 PM »



I know I can make things more livable, for me and her. But in order to be a couple, it would have to be something that she at least wants to try. If she doesn't want to be my GF, then I'm just a friend helping out.

But who knows, we've been here before. And somehow she convinces me again that she loves me. So I can't say this is the end for sure, although it feels like it.

So, since you've been here before, how can you blend that knowledge with the knowledge you are gaining of the drama triangle so that in 4 months you look around at your life and relationship and say "I've never been here before."

Knowing that it may not be the "final" answer, but at least you will be on a pathway to somewhere new.

Thoughts?

FF
Logged

Harley Quinn
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 2839


I am exactly where I need to be, right now.


« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2018, 06:39:33 PM »

Joe, what medical help does she get for her anorexia?  I hear a great deal of low self esteem from her when you describe what she says to you.  Is she engaging in treatment?  Going back to your first post, comments like this stand out:

Excerpt
I'm tired of telling you it's all my fault, I'm damaged, I'm flawed, I'm crazy, it has nothing to do with you, it has to do with me


She has awareness of her issues, despite summarising them in the way she does.  What is her stance on getting support and help to overcome them and give herself and the kids a chance at a better future?

Love and light x
Logged

We are stars wrapped in skin.  The light you are looking for has always been within.
Radcliff
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 3377


Fond memories, fella.


« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2018, 02:11:44 AM »

Joe,

Thank you for taking the time to explain your situation in such deep detail.

In your spare time  you might want to take a look at the book, "Transforming the Difficult Child:  The Nurtured Heart Approach."  I've found it's been very helpful for adjusting my parenting and reducing some of the drama with my D12.  I think you'll find it very informative.

WW
Logged
JoeBPD81
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 709



WWW
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2018, 05:03:08 PM »

FF,

My thoughts  are that that would be wonderful, I still don't know how to get there though. It looks like a big mountain to climb.

HQ,

she refuses to get treatment for anorexia or change anything in that regard. She uses all her will to maintain and not lose more weight. She eats at night when we are all in bed. And she tries to eat healthy food (or what she thinks it's healthy), she used to have empty calories. This is the best she has eaten in the time I know her, so I feel I can't push that front anymore.

Lack of vitamin B12 and other nutrients (minerals), and fats, can really mess with her brain. The most stable time in her life, she was eating normal (to please others). It is really scary.

She calmly says that she'd rather die before gaining any weight. She knows it is an illness, and she hates herself more for how irrational and immature it sounds. But she can't help it.

After many approaches, I think the only solution is that her life becomes more enjoyable. Because now, dying is more attractive. If she wanted to live, she would also have a motivation to fight that illness that wants her dead.

Her self esteem is lower than low, it is self loathing. But on the other hand she doesn't want to change, she wants to remain true to herself. And Anorexia and BPD are part of herself. Her sense of identity is frail, so she is very afraid of becoming someone that she is not.

She oscillates between not wanting to be aggressive and rude, and proclaiming this is who she is, and she shouldn't have to change.

I know there is an enormous amount of pain and fear. So big it gets out anyway it can. I can get angry at everything, but mostly I want to comfort her, and take the pain away.

When she is aware, she has great insight. We have many long conversations about her emotions, her thoughts and theories, her symptoms, everything.  But I see spots where she can't go there, and she is completely blind about them. It's like there are some areas in her mind, and memory, that are locked away.

So her great intelligence, contrast with those spots where she is completely irrational about them. She has this great insight, so you think, you feel, she is gonna understand any reasoning, but there are some places she won't go. It's like the truth is there, but she somehow gets repeled and believes something else, without remembering she was searching for the truth and about to find it.

Watching many people with mental disorders and trauma in  Dr. Phil , many react like that. They are presented with the truth, one that they can't accept, and when they see the evidence their minds go anywhere else. They change the subject, repeat their truth, or stare at the wall looking lost.

My gf's stand changes. Overall, she takes the help, doesn't take the medication. But she doesn't believe she has a chance at overcoming this. She sees some advances, but too slow, and feels like one step ahead and two back. She doesn't believe there is a future, she's beaten and broken and she wants to die. But she can't do that to the kids.

The kids focus her. They are a pain in the behind, but she is great with them. She never neglects them, she doesn't oversleep, or fail to take them anywhere, She doesn't drink or take anything to numb her pain, in order to be alert in case the kids need her. She enables them and rewards them all the time regardless of their behaviour. Their leisure is more important than her health. But this is doing too much, not too little.

She doesn't split on them, or acts in an irrational way with them. But she thinks she does.

When I thought about it, I realize she only acts BPD-like with me. As Wentworth said, just looking at me it's a trigger.

WW,

Thanks for the book recommendation. And for taking the time to read my long posts :-)

This time is very bizarre. I think she has relaxed now that she has broken up with me. Yesterday she asked me if we could do something  the 4 of us. She rarely does. Of course, the kids wanted to play some video-game and not be with us. So it wasn't as armonious as it sounded. But it was OK.

Today we did things together too. We even watched a couple of episodes of a tv show, just the two of us. She said: If the kids are busy, do you want to do something the two of us? That is weirder than yesterday.

I felt like crying several times. Because she's not my GF, and I don't know where we are and how long I would be still seeing her. I didn't seat very close, I didn't touch her... .But I miss doing that very much, specially if I think it's over. But I didn't want to cry.

She kept looking at me and then turning when I saw her. When I took her bed out, she kept staring, and I gave her a little hug and a kiss on the cheek, and she said thank you. That's a lot of contact for us. And her response is usually very far from "thank you".

When the kids were in bed, she came to my room and kissed me on my cheek, and said good night.

I don't want to read into that, it's all very confusing. Other times after breaking up with me she has started acting as if the break up never happened, and started talking about the future together. But if I asked, then she would tell me that we were broken up and that nothing had changed.

I don't know what to think, or what I want, or what I'll do. Also, it is weird to have some days without study duty after it was a responsibility for so many days. So I feel extra disoriented.
Logged

We are in this together.
Radcliff
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 3377


Fond memories, fella.


« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2018, 10:55:30 PM »

You gave her a kiss.  She gave you a kiss.  That's nice.  Try to be OK with not knowing exactly where it is going.  It seems like she values having her own space yet wants to cross the distance a bit, safely, in a way she can control.

I can relate to how confusing it is to be with a pwBPD who seems brilliant and insightful in so many ways, yet blind in others.  I don't think I will ever understand it intuitively.

WW
Logged
JoeBPD81
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 709



WWW
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2018, 03:32:10 AM »

Sunday started wrong, we were browsing through Dr. Phil episodes to watch one, and she said "they could make 60 programs with how dysfunctional we are". I asked her "As a family?" "Including your past?" and she said no, just our RS. I kept doing what we were doing, but she noticed I was sad. She asked ":)id I say something harmful?"

If you are familar with the Dr. Phil show, the most outrageous things are brought to it. Big shocking betrayals, secrets uncovered, very disturbed people... .If something is extra complicated, they do 2 shows.  So saying we'd need 60... .It's not a nice thing to hear when you are trying not to cry in front of the kids when Valentine's day is coming, and your GF has dumped you 2 days ago.

Also, she has all those shocking things in her past. She could write a saga of novels with her past. Her family seems out of a Stieg Larsson's book. Her ex-husband is a monster... .And we two are the most dysfuctional thing in her life.

I tried to explain that it's not easy to hear that, but trying not to make a big deal. That only hurt because of the moment we are in, and because the kids were present and I'm already trying to not look sad in front of them.  She said that we are so toxic for each other, because what helps her cope, saying those things, hurt me and what helps me hurts her very much. She started talking about how she can't trust me and she's waiting for me to cheat on her, if I hadn't already (I'm thinking "what cheating if you broke up with me already?".

I have to say, even as she treats me like... .whatever. I woundn't cheat on her. I have no interest on being with anybody else. If we finaly part ways, I'm gonna need a lot of time to even think about the posibility of being in another RS.

Well, right there, in the middle of the conversation, her ex called. He never calls! But he did then (well, she's been trying to get a hold of him for weeks). I didn't wanna hear the conversation, so I went to my room. She kept coming later, and saying she was sorry, and saying she didn't blame me for anything but... .(It sounded like I had brought the subject up). She started to cry, and saying she was the one that was gonna be alone forever (she never said that as in something sad, she always said she wanted to be alone always.)

I closed the door. And I huged her. I asked her "Am I close to you?" "Am I someone important in your life?" (yes and yes). And I told her she was my best friend, and the most important person for me. I asked her for 10 minutes when she didn't answer negaive things about herself to everything I said. I told her I wasn't going to try to kiss her or touch her in any way. And we were there in a hug for those 10 minutes. She cried in my shoulder, and she didn't get away. She says it is wrong that I'm comforting her when all she does is hurt me. I told her, that she could say those things later, but just forget them for just 10 minutes. Also that when she lets me comfort her, I'm happy.

The rest of the day we were busy with the kids. We had another hug moment, and she was feeling miserable, hopeless. She had to cancel one appointment  with the T, and they gave her another one month from now. She has no hope in getting any better.

I wish she could really get help. She has no other source of support than me, and the T once or twice a month. It's not nearly enough. The presure of finding a job, two very demanding kids (S6 saw us hugging, and went very mad, screaming he didn't love her, and such). And no support. She thinks she is better alone, but I think she's a terrible company to herself, a very bad friend, you know?
Logged

We are in this together.
Notwendy
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Posts: 10440



« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2018, 04:50:36 AM »

Joe, what I read in your post ( and I could be mistaken) was a misplaced sense of self care. You were feeling sad, and yet, you comforted her. Nothing wrong with that, but what about your feelings? What she is feeling- or saying- dominates the tone of the post. One moment she is thinking critically about the relationship, then her ex calls and you are comforting her.


Whether the two of you are a couple or not, is determined by her feelings. Yes, it takes two to decide to be a couple. You can't be a couple if she doesn't want it, but her feelings change and the dual message- you "break up" and next thing she is in your arms for 10 minutes.

This has to be confusing and very tough. From your posts, I think if she came in your room wanting to be a couple again, you'd agree. Nothing wrong with that,  but again, the choice is up to her.

I think it is possible to be so focused on a partner's feelings that we just lose track of our own. In the beginning, you were watching TV and she said something hurtful and you felt sad. At that point, you could have taken a self care step- focusing on you ( using "I" statements, not "you" statements). The Dr. Phil show may be triggering to her, or even both of you. Things you might have said include "this show's a bit heavy for me right now- I'd like to change the channel" "I'm not up to discussing the relationship right now, let's watch a comedy" if she persisted, you could say " I am not up to watching TV - I need a moment to myself- and go to your room or even take a drive.

This isn't a boundary for her, it is for you. If you are feeling sad, upset- it is you that needs a "hug" from you. I know you can't actually hug yourself but whatever you can do for self care- time out in your room, watching something light hearted on TV, a short walk. You are a caring person to her, how about giving some of that to you as well?
Logged
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2018, 07:11:09 AM »

  two very demanding kids (S6 saw us hugging, and went very mad, screaming he didn't love her, and such).

Hey man... .I get it that you mean well here.  You seem to understand that much more T sessions and accountability are needed.  She won't do that and yet you continue on. 

Ask yourself, what is the incentive for her to change?  She gets all this support "for free" and she gets to be in a relationship with no consequences for bad behavior (see Notwendy post) at any moment she chooses.

Why would anyone give up a deal like that?  I certainly can't think of a good reason to.

Someone needs to have a firm sense of values here.  Little chance it will be her. 

You seem to understand the kids are in a bad spot, yet I wonder if you have reflected on the difference in enabling a bad situation to continue versus moving a situation towards something healthier.

What specifically are you doing that will result in healthier/more well adjusted kids that are not as demanding?

FF


Logged

JoeBPD81
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 709



WWW
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2018, 07:27:21 AM »

You are absolutely right.

It has to have to do with the fact that if I'm offended I get even more rejection. "Yeah, you are hurt, because I do nothing but hurt you, and I'm horrible... ." I almost never get a hug. It's very weird for her to start physical contact.

You are right that I should do it for myself. I felt lost and I was looking for that thing to do to focus on myself, and nothing felt right.

I know I'm sad, and I'm a sad person anyway, so it's not a big deal. But I know she gets sad or ashamed and she wants to die. So I quickly turn to worry about her (not healthy, I know). She worries me more than I do. I trust I'll be fine eventually, she won't.

There was no indication that she would welcome a hug. But I sensed that we should stop apologizing and digging into our flaws, and adknowledge that we care about each other. Maybe we can't or we shouldn't be a couple, but we surely don't want to hurt each other. She wasn't crying about the phonecall, she was crying and apologizing to me, she came and went, and each time she came back was to say sorry for something else she thought it might have hurt me.

I had gone to my room, and I had my computer, even though I hadn't decided what to watch. She could nave left me there, but she tried to comfort me in her way (blaming herself for everything), and saying she's sorry.

Dr. Phil, we both enjoy it very much. She has seen before most of the shows that we watch together. We laugh, and we talk a lot during them, we pause and we discuss, in a good way. It is triggering in a constructive way. Rarely it makes her cry, and we are united. It was never cause for conflict between us. It is dysfunctional in itself that we watch that, more than any other show. But it is a teaching tool. She has compasion for people that are way more hurtful than herself. And I'm hoping she learns to have compasion for herself.

I would have just kept on watching, and feel OK in 5 minutes, but she asked, and she was baffled that what she said could be hurtful to me. And I was baffled that she was baffled. She claims that is "Irreverence" and it helps her take the weight of the issue. I get the concept, but it wasn't the time for me to hear it. She didn't want to discuss it.

Am I in denial about how incompatible we are?(As she says) Or does she tell herself we can't work together so she gathers the streght to leave me, thinking it is the right thing? She mentioned several times that she has strong feelings towards me, and that she would miss me, but she doesn't deserve otherwise.

Lately she is saying she would never have sex again. And that I shouldn't put up with that. I'm used to long periods without it, but forever is another matter. Nothing has happened between the last time we had sex and now, she uncovered some wounds from her past. She resents me for things she admits are completely normal for anyone, but hurt her when she thinks about them. Mainly just desiring her. When she wants me, or gives in, and enjoyes it, she feels dirty and unworth it (in her own words) in a way that is unbearable. She doesn't want to feel like that again. After sex she is a completely different person. She is happy, affectionate, energetic... .For about 2 days. But she says that's her "12 year old self". And eventually, she feels like a 12 year old who had sex, something completely wrong.

She has a very negative concept of sex and men. For me it's about closeness, and caring. But I can't change how she sees it. In any case, closeness and caring also scare her. Feeling are dangerous.

I can't stand seeing someone so bright, such a devoted mother, someone that was so generous and sweet... .And someone that had all the bad luck in the world, feeling like she doesn't deserve anything good in life. It breaks my heart more than my own suffering.
Logged

We are in this together.
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2018, 07:35:44 AM »


I can't stand seeing someone so bright, such a devoted mother, someone that was so generous and sweet... .And someone that had all the bad luck in the world, feeling like she doesn't deserve anything good in life. It breaks my heart more than my own suffering.

Penalty flag... .

How exactly does such a devoted mother get demanding kids that scream when the Mom hugs someone else.

How is it that her suffering is more important than yours?  Where have those values taken the relationship?

FF
Logged

JoeBPD81
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 709



WWW
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2018, 08:08:33 AM »

Hey man... .I get it that you mean well here.  You seem to understand that much more T sessions and accountability are needed.  She won't do that and yet you continue on. 

She would take a T season a day if she could. She want's help, and she works DBT tools by herself. Healthcare in our country doesn't know a thing about DBT. She goes to the appointments even when she hates to go. I know we have little results, but I believe in giving her points for trying.

Excerpt
Ask yourself, what is the incentive for her to change?  She gets all this support "for free" and she gets to be in a relationship with no consequences for bad behavior (see Notwendy post) at any moment she chooses.

You are right, and I need to be in a different place myself to change that. I'm too worried about putting out fires, I react instead of acting according to a plan.

Excerpt
Why would anyone give up a deal like that?  I certainly can't think of a good reason to.

She's giving up, all the time. That's what breaks me.

Excerpt
You seem to understand the kids are in a bad spot, yet I wonder if you have reflected on the difference in enabling a bad situation to continue versus moving a situation towards something healthier.

What specifically are you doing that will result in healthier/more well adjusted kids that are not as demanding?

That's hard. I don't have much attention to parenting when I'm worried she's leaving, or thinking about killing herself. They are in a good place now, but they KNOW their bio-father doesn't want them at all.

We try to follow what the T and teachers say. I can't lead here. She has read books and attended conferences about ADHD, and we try all the good things. There hasn't been two years since they have a house they can call their own.

We don't try to fix all at once. We try to pay them more attention when they behave well. We validate a lot. But we strugle to teach them values, when they don't seem to care at all about good or bad. They also seem to not be able to learn. They get in trouble for the same things over and over again. They don't respecct me much, but with her, it's like she is furniture, nothing hints that they adknowledge that she is a person.

It's all real. But now I'm in the middle of the fire that next month they can be out of my life and influence. Or tomorrow.

Excerpt
How exactly does such a devoted mother get demanding kids that scream when the Mom hugs someone else.

She's given them too much. She wanted to compensate for the abuse they got from theid dad, and granma, from her sense that other kids laugh at them... .

The kid, I think he senses that if mum is not watching, he's gonna get some beating from the older kid. He's not wrong about that. We was mad that he needed to finish some homework before playing videgames. When he saw we weren't worried about his desires, he demanded attention. So, it's not that he gets angry when mom hughs me, they usually just add themselves to the hug. But yes, jealousy is a big part of their lives.

Excerpt
How is it that her suffering is more important than yours?  Where have those values taken the relationship?


Aggg! I don't know how to feel differently! I'm working on it. That's one of the reasons I think I shouldn't have another RS after this one. I can't put myself first. I have to force it, and that's not being me.
Logged

We are in this together.
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2018, 08:22:42 AM »



It's all real. But now I'm in the middle of the fire that next month they can be out of my life and influence. Or tomorrow.
 


Can you explain this a bit better? 


Why can't you lead on the kids?  Or at least set conditions for YOUR continued support of the situation. 

FF
Logged

JoeBPD81
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 709



WWW
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2018, 08:41:03 AM »

She's looking for any chance to leave our house, with the kids. We are done. But today, she doesn't have anywhere to go.

I'm guessing the ex told her yesterday that he won't take the kids. Or else, that was the plan and she would have taken it.

I'm the ambassador of tough love towards the kids. If we set a rule, I don't back up. I want them to learn to be more independent, and consecuences.  But anything I say about that, it's taken like "you hate the kids". And it makes her be even less consistent with them. She believes in infinite chances.

If we don't have a future together, they don't need me to challenge what she says. She needs all the authority she has left in their eyes. The kids only have her.

I set my rules and my space, independent of their education guidelines. And she sees that they respect them. But more than that, it only brings more trouble.
Logged

We are in this together.
Radcliff
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 3377


Fond memories, fella.


« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2018, 12:04:58 AM »

We are done. But today, she doesn't have anywhere to go.

There's a saying... ."It ain't over 'till it's over."

She is still in your home.  You still have a relationship, even if the name for that relationship is uncertain.  You are in a situation where the demand for your energy far exceeds the supply.  Like one of those nature shows, where the animal must carefully preserve energy in order to survive.  You are wasting some precious energy deciding whether you are a couple or not, whether to discipline the kids or not.  Yes, it is crazimaking.  But stop trying to guess.  Keep working on your boundaries, on your self care.  You have some insights into why you are acting the way you are.  Try not to yo-yo back and forth with her.  That means not believing that you are "done" when she is still in your house, but also not surrendering yourself to make any possible connection with her.  Like it or not, you are learning how to have boundaries and practice self care in a terribly difficult situation.  But that is where you are.  You have a lot of strength and intelligence to bring to this problem.  You can make progress here.

WW
Logged
JoeBPD81
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 709



WWW
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2018, 04:43:30 AM »

Well,

admiting that is over gives me some peace. I can only go up from there, in a way. Hoping and wondering, that's what takes my energy.

I already started studying for the next semester, and I'm proud of that. I'l keep trying to have the best life I can in these circunstances. I''ll see about that progress.
Logged

We are in this together.
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2018, 06:14:30 AM »

  I''ll see about that progress.

So, you need to have a time of reflection.

If we are done then... .

It's obvious you care for her and recycles are commonplace.

The best chance for us to be a couple is... .

Is it fair to say that you guys don't see eye to eye on parenting?  If that is not accurate, please describe how you see it.

I do think you are making progress in understanding the situation and in considering boundaries and living out your values.

Solid work on studying.  Let's also "study" for real life... .for YOU.

FF
Logged

JoeBPD81
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 709



WWW
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2018, 07:54:02 AM »

Excerpt
Is it fair to say that you guys don't see eye to eye on parenting?  If that is not accurate, please describe how you see it.

Not a 100% accurate. I don't think any two people would be.

I agree with her goals, and concerns.
I agree with how consistent she wants to be, but not with how consistent she actually is.

The difference is that I held them accountable for what they do, in a kid's measure, not as adults. She thinks it's all her fault.

When they misbehave, and she grounds them. They are upset or sad. Then she thinks she is hurting them ("because she is a horrible mother" and she gives them a lot of attention, or lifts the grounding.
I believe being upset and sad, it is a part of the process or learning.

The second fundamental issue is that the same thing, if she comes from her it's OK, and if it comes from me, it's mean (to be mild).

It's crazy the amount of screams that go on in any given day among they 3. The day I raise my voice, I'm a bully, I completely loose control, etc.

So the issue is not the view in education, as much as me being an outsider, an intruder, and therefore, a menace. If I say the same as her, coming from me is an attack to her kids, and she turns into mother lion.

This gets better little by little, IF she is regulated. As I'm taking more time and space for myself, the number of conflicts also decreases.
Logged

We are in this together.
Can You Help Us Stay on the Air in 2024?

Pages: [1] 2 3  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Our 2023 Financial Sponsors
We are all appreciative of the members who provide the funding to keep BPDFamily on the air.
12years
alterK
AskingWhy
At Bay
Cat Familiar
CoherentMoose
drained1996
EZEarache
Flora and Fauna
ForeverDad
Gemsforeyes
Goldcrest
Harri
healthfreedom4s
hope2727
khibomsis
Lemon Squeezy
Memorial Donation (4)
Methos
Methuen
Mommydoc
Mutt
P.F.Change
Penumbra66
Red22
Rev
SamwizeGamgee
Skip
Swimmy55
Tartan Pants
Turkish
whirlpoollife



Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2020, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!