Sex: How should I handle the mixed messages and rejection?

[HouseDad3]

Valentines Day is tomorrow. Yet another holiday will end with me feeling rejected and low like on my Birthday, Father's Day, Christmas, New Years, and any of the days ending with the letter "Y."  (Ha, in my perfect r/s the wife and I would have daily intimacy. Wishful thinking, I know!)

We have had sex four times in 12 months - all from her initiation. I have attempted to initiate sex with her weekly only to be rejected. The basis of her rejection, she has told me is "knowing you think I'm Borderline when everyone else including multiple therapists, Psychiatrists, and others say I'm not!"  She will also add that I'm untrustworthy and she'll never see herself getting over the thought or possibly having sex with me again.

As I've been learning about BPD, being consistent is a key component. "Be empathetic, be sympathetic, be consistent for the pwBPD."

In trying to maintain consistency, I fulfill my wife's requests for snuggles. She asks daily to snuggle and she tells me, with a very loving and seductive tone, "I prefer naked snuggling."  Yet, when any attempt by me at foreplay is detected, it is quickly met with, "I know what you are trying to do!  We are not doing it."  She will allow (actually demands) me to spoon her, kiss her cheeks/neck, cup and squeeze her breasts.  She'll moan and move in tight with pleasure. She'll roll toward me and wrap her legs around me so we are in the missionary position - laying naked, parts touching. If I attempt to kiss her on the mouth, gyrate hips, or otherwise move for "insertion" it is quickly shut down.

So there I am - hurt, naked, and feeling like she's manipulating me.  I've had numerous talks with her about my feelings and desires. I've told her how wonderful, beautiful, and sexy she is and my emptiness/hurt when I am rejected. She will either say, "You've NEVER told me those things before. Wow, this is a shock, why are you being so nice? You're just saying that to get in my pants!"  Or she will say, "I've told you, I can't trust you! You continue to assert that I'm BPD when I'm not!"

Then the next morning, she'll be upset when I didn't naked snuggle her awake.  I've told her how difficult it is for me to be so close to sex with her, daily, only to be reminded that I'm untrustworthy and all the other hurtful things she'll say. Her response is usually, "You're telling me you have no control over yourself?  Are you weak?  Why can't you respect my desires?"

I'm stuck trying to be consistent and meet her desires in hopes it will show/prove I'm trustworthy, loyal, and loving.

What are your thoughts and experiences?  
Should I stop snuggling?

Continue the naked snuggles and except this is how it is until she seeks treatment on her own terms?

If the stars did align and she wanted sex should I accept (which is what I've done in the past because it doesn't happen often)?  

Should I say, "No thanks, I'm good."

Or again share my hurt feelings?  

I already know there will be no chance of sex on Valentines or the following week because her BPD mother arrives this evening for a week long visit. (That's an entire other issue/story/post/topic/nightmare full of hypocrisy)

Thanks to all on this board!  I'm thankful to have found you and your advice!

HD3

[Thejones]

Not sure if I have any advice as such. But I totally get what you are going through. 

I think sex and intimacy is a difficult one with a BPD partner. I too never get to initiate any activities. All usually on her terms. It really does depend on what state of mind she is in. Sometimes it is very regular over the space of a week or two then there’s a drought for longer than that and there’s no real reason why.

I think. And I am just assuming here, that it’s all about how my wife feels in herself. The BPD over exaggerates any self consciousness that she has which makes her feel that she isn’t attractive enough or she isn’t satisfying enough for me and there’s no amount that I can say that changes her mind with this. I don’t know if it is the correct thing to do but I just let it ride out - parden the pun.

As for refusing sex I don’t think that’s anything that has ever crossed my mind to be honest. I think that if I ever was to, that would send her into a spiral where she feels that I no longer want her anymore.

I think it is a good therapy for her and I do feel that post coitus she is at her most relaxed and chilled out. Could you talk her into it for medicinal purposes .

I hope you manage to get something sorted out with her. Choose your time and speak to her openly - maybe not leaving it until there is naked snuggling going on.

First response to someone’s post as I am a newbie so hopefully not spoke too much nonsense.

The jones
 

[Fian]

Not sure if this is good advice or not, but I would not do the naked snuggles (to be honest, I am amazed that you allowed it to happen in the first place).  I would tell her something to the effect if she wants you to meet her need for snuggling, then she needs to meet your need for sex.  You are not interested in an unbalanced relationship where her needs are important and yours are not.  Don't let her FOG you into continuing to do what she wants.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey HD3, Let's face it: having sex with one's spouse only four times in the past year is a red flag.    Presumably she is angry with you, which seems confirmed by what she says about you being untrustworthy.  I'm sorry that you are stressed out about Valentine's Day due to your expectation that any physical romance is unlikely.  I wonder whether you are taking the concept of consistency too far?  I don't think it means that you should be a doormat for your W's angry feelings.  What are your boundaries?  See Tools, above.  In my view, it's not OK for your W to use withholding sex as a weapon to hurt you.

LuckyJim

[formflier]

So... .big picture.  Trying to convince someone that they are something they don't think they are is problematic, as you have found out.

I would stop talking about it... .totally.

The way she is going about this is torturous... .

"We're married, I willing to snuggle and have sex.  Being used for snuggles and sexually rejected doesn't work for me anymore.  I'll respect your choice of which pathway you want to follow."

I think she likes to know you want her... and she likes to reject you.  That "works" for her is some sort of dysfunctional way.  Big picture, stop dancing her dance.  Offer another dance... .she may  or may not want to dance differently.

I'm sorry man... .please be kind to yourself.     

FF

[Lady Itone]

Ouch. There's got to be some way you can set a boundary that you won't be sexually teased, tormented, and left unsatisfied. Immediately cease physical contact if she tells you no? Tell her you need to sleep on the couch until you cool off, disengage, and go?

[pearlsw]

Hi HouseDad3,

This sounds oh so difficult! She clearly seems angry with you and is using sex as a weapon. That is so difficult!

This issue of her not wanting to have sex, she claims, because you see her as BPD, is there more to that? What are her "trust" issues with you as she sees them? Is there any way to disentangle those issues from the sex?

take care, pearl.  

[Notwendy]

Sex can be a difficult issue. Both have to respect the other person's autonomy and yet, also be considerate of the other person's needs. It's not so simple when these needs are beyond the scope of marital relations. For instance if one person wants to not be monogamous and the other one needs monogamy, there's an issue. Or if one person does not want to have sex at all and the other one does- that either needs some sort of resolution or one spouse has to agree to a sexless marriage. I am not talking about temporary times- over the course of a marriage there could be lulls but the long term.

I don't know what your wife's intent is with her spooning wishes, but I think you have the right to decide what feels abusive to you and have boundaries on that. Basically what she wants goes against your biology, and if you go with your biology she interprets some sort of other motive to that and is verbally cruel.

You do not have the right to violate her boundary on intercourse, but you also can have boundaries on your body. You are a healthy straight male, and if a naked woman is rubbing against you, acting sexual, your body will respond in the way it is biologically designed to do and she is expecting you to stop at this point. It is also hurtful to you emotionally as you wish to be bonded with her in this way. IMHO, you have the right to have a boundary on your body and your emotions and say- this is physically and emotionally tough on me. I respect your wish to not have sex, but I can not put myself through this. Hugging, kissing, with clothes on is OK. Naked spooning is not.

[BasementDweller]

This is a tough topic, and I can imagine how upsetting this rejection must feel.

I agree with some of the other posters' answers. Of course you can not coerce her sexually, but you can refuse to stop being used for "partial intimacy" which only suits her needs, but with no reciprocation. I also think it sounds like she is using sex as a punishment/reward system, and that is not healthy.

I would hardline this, and say "I will be there to talk with you if you need to express yourself, and I will hold you if you need a hug. I will do nothing further if you do not wish for sexual intimacy." And I'd stick to it. And come to bed in huge, frumpy pajamas! 

There is no part of me that would recommend or condone marital infidelity, but since your wife is refusing intimacy and you clearly still have these desires, I would also say to my spouse if I were in this situation, "As married partners, we should be fulfilling each other's sexual needs. I have certain needs and desires and you are no longer participating in these things with me. I want to preserve our relationship, and therefore I believe we need to go to marriage counseling to get things back on track. I do not want to live like this. Your thoughts?"

And see what she says... .there may be an extinction burst that follows, but she may come around. I don't advise letting yourself be used and taunted this way any longer, though. Boundaries need to be set up, as she is taking advantage of your affection and desire for her.

[HouseDad3]

Thank you all for your input!

Thejones - You make a great point I’d never thought of: What if she’s fearful she isn’t attractive enough or satisfying enough. I too, have told her how wonderful, beautiful, and desirable she is over and over and over. I do think she displays some NPD traits, as she’s often said, “I’m comfortable in my own skin.”  Perhaps that’s just masking her true feelings.  As for refusing sex, I also worry it will deepen the rift. In what way I don’t know.

Fian/LuckyJim - I agree, I should set and hold true to boundaries there to protect me. Truthfully, I am weak at this skill. I AM willing to work on my ability to use the tool though. 

FF - I think you are right, she’s gaining some sort of dysfunctional  satisfaction and it is “working” for her.

Lady Itone - I have gotten up and ended the snuggles after being rejected on several occasions. The snuggles usually happen in the mornings so I’ll say, “I have to go wake the kids and get them to school.”  But I rarely, in that moment, tell her how hurt I am. I felt it would seem like I’m sulking and pouting.

Pearlsw- I have no clue how to disentangle one issue, her trust perception, from the other, our sexual relations. She is across the board with example on how untrustworthy I am. Not doing a task I said I would is one of her often cited examples.

 Here is an example, days before Christmas, I said I was going to run errands on the south end of town and asked if she needed anything. (We had already spoken about going to the north end of town, where her office is, later at a set time to pickup our son from a function.) She said, “If you’d like, you can stop by my office and pick up some documents. I don’t need the documents for a few days, so it’s no rush.”  I left the home to begin my errands at the south end of town when she texted asking if I could deliver Christmas cards to her office. The Christmas cards were back at our home. I returned home after completing the errands, knowing we would drive toward the north end of town to pick up our son near her office. I felt I could deliver the Christmas cards and pick up the documents at the time I went to pickup our son. Again, this wasn’t a rush in her own words.  She blew up and yelled, “I wish you would be honest with me when you say you’d do something but then REFUSE to do it!”   So there I was trying to explain how I didn’t think time was of the essence. And that I was going to complete the tasks later when we were heading that way to pick up our son. She grabbed the cards, got in her car, and left to the office herself stating, “I guess I’ll have to do it! “She then did not pick up our son and I had to drive out there to do so.

Notwendy - I agree, I am able to respect her stated desire to not have intercourse. I do recognize I need to set a boundary for myself and hold true.

BasementDweller - I like your hardline suggestion. One of her triggers is any attempt by me to encourage therapy. I have some other posts about it. That has caused big blowups.

In closing, this morning, Valentines Day, after taking the older kids to school, I went into the bedroom and snuggled her. I was fully clothed on top of the bedding while she was naked underneath. I dozed off and woke a short time later when she softly said, “Hey, these are not make snuggles. I’ve been tricked.”  I remained silent and she dozed off to sleep. A few minutes, later I began to get up and she started whining, rolled toward me, opened the bedding with another request to snuggle. I did give her a hug while telling her I needed to get the youngest kid to school. She held on, gyrated her hips into me and said, “Five more minutes.”  I told her we were late leaving and removed myself from the room.

I am going to work on setting and holding on to my boundaries. I have to.

Thanks, have to run, thanks for the input!

[Fian]

It is good to hear that you are no longer participating in her game.  However, I do think you need to communicate with her what you are doing and why.  Otherwise her BPD will fill in the blanks in the least flattering way for you.  I think FF put it best above.  You are attracted to her and want to have sex, but you are not interested in naked snuggles that don't result in sex.  She can choose to either have sex or no snuggles, the choice is up to her.

[Notwendy]

When speaking to her, I would be careful to make it about you, not her. It is best to not have this be a reaction to her, but to come from your own boundaries and self care. "I will not do this to myself" rather than "you will not do this to me".  This tends to not play into the drama. Reacting might take on victim role and that feed the drama. Taking a stand for yourself is not in victim mode.

I imagine you go along with this hoping ... hoping... .that maybe in the middle of it, she just might ... .but I don't think this is the way to get what you are hoping for. (IMHO). You know the results of what you are trying over and over again. It isn't working.

I don't know what will, but you have the right to not put yourself in this situation- one that is physically and emotionally difficult for you.

[BasementDweller]

Excellent work! You held your ground!  I am curious as to how this is going to play out, I must admit.

[formflier]

.  You are attracted to her and want to have sex, but you are not interested in naked snuggles that don't result in sex.  She can choose to either have sex or no snuggles, the choice is up to her.

There seems to be consensus of advice.  

I would encourage you to be "proactive" about this conversation and do it at a time and place of your choosing, vice being reactive and having the conversation during a rejection or other time of distress for one or both of you.

I realize this is tough for you.  I would encourage you to practice this conversation several times by yourself.    Focus on being succinct.   Do not focus on "convincing" her.  Focus on do the words you choose state your values.

Hopefully you can find a time when you KNOW you are calm and ready.  Hopefully you can find a time when you wife also appears to be calm and open.

In your practice... .if you find yourself trying to "explain"    ... .I would shy away from that thinking.  

Don't expect this to be a smooth ride.  Boundary enforcement rarely is.  She may take it well... .then a week from now "poof" she takes it badly, then "poof" she may act as though it doesn't matter.  

This is all "normal".  Your job is to be consistent.  

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=63989.0


https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61921.10


It is critical you understand why consistency is key.  If you aren't ready to be consistent in upholding your values, wait until you are ready.

Thoughts?

FF

[HouseDad3]

Thank you for the advice and support!

FF - You are correct. I have been working on specific wording and keeping away from the "you" words and using "I" words instead.  Rehearsing in my head during drives, etc. Thinking about timing and emotion. Working on "What ifs."

I do struggle with figuring out the timing and emotion though.

I am also seeing the other areas where I need to work on my boundaries. Make adjustments, set some, and follow though.

How does this sound as a starting point?

"I'm happy to hear you love snuggling, I love to as well. Lately, I've been getting aroused while snuggling and realize I need to make adjustments to find balance for my sexual needs."

(The above statement took me far too long to put on screen than I thought!  Just goes to prove, I need continued practice in my head to be strong to say it to her."

Thanks again!  (Her mother is here and it's been a wild ride with those two. A subject of a different post in the future for sure!)

HD3

[formflier]

Remind me again... how long has the sex gone to " a weird place"?  

How long were you guys "normal" or you were satisfied by your sex life?

How long has it been since last since last sexual intercourse?

Have other things been on the "menu" (less than intercourse)?  Bjs, Hjs... etc etc.

What I'm basically getting at, has she been making an effort to satisfy your sexual needs?  It's obvious she has expressed her need (sexual or otherwise) for naked cuddling and you have stepped up and tried your heart out.  (good work on your part for trying)

I would suggest you decide your going to spend a week or two thinking about your message and crafting it and then just do it.

I would evaluate using one of these techniques.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=145806.0

I would also evaluate "just saying it succinctly".  My one comment on your proposed thing is there are lots of words that talk about feelings.  That's dicey... .

Note:  I'm not trying to use any of the techniques in the link.

"I'm conflicted with our naked snuggle time.  I need to either have our time together lead to sexual intercourse or find another way for us to come together to meet your physical touch needs."


As I "designed" the above statement.  You own your feelings and you are taking action to take care of those. (without apology).  You are referencing "time together" and "coming together" and you are talking about taking care of her physical needs.

Yep... there is a lot left unsaid, which you may eventually need to "get to".  Such as... ."Help me understand how you don't reciprocate the effort to take care of our physical needs"?

Anyway... .there is more than one "right answer" as to how to do this.  

FF

"I'm happy to hear you love snuggling, I love to as well. Lately, I've been getting aroused while snuggling and realize I need to make adjustments to find balance for my sexual needs."
 

[Fian]

"I'm happy to hear you love snuggling, I love to as well. Lately, I've been getting aroused while snuggling"

I would encourage you to change the wording above.  Her likely line of response will be for you to go back to what you were doing before where you weren't getting aroused.  I would recommend something more along the lines of, "I enjoy snuggling with you but it arouses me, and it is frustrating to then have to stop and not move on to intercourse."

[formflier]

There is some brinkmanship to dealing with pwBPD, especially around boundary issues.

I get it that people can live without sex, so there is an argument against calling it a "need".  On the other hand, I'm not aware of many romantic relationships that can survive without sexual fulfillment of some kind.

With that, I'm comfortable calling it a "need".  

I'm a fan (obviously) of incorporating the word "need" into this at the start.

You may have her say that the cuddling is no big deal and she'll just stop, at which point (for now) you need to be nonchalant about it and "respect her choices".

Or

Be ready for her to demand you meet her needs and you don't get needs (very likely and common BPD response).  This is a shocking display of selfishness, but I would advise you to not be shocked.  Perhaps more befuddled or confused, sort of a shoulder shrug type of thing.

"You mean you expect your needs to be met and me to deal with having my needs ignored?  Is that really what you want me to hear?"  tone is important here... .not accusing... perhaps more curious in a "how can that be" type of thing.

The goal here is to present the information, exit the conversation and let her connect the dots without you "in her face" pushing an agenda.

Thoughts?

FF

[Notwendy]

IMHO, I find the term "adjustments" to be vague. It opens the door to - what kind of adjustments? and I think that might lead to JADE. It almost feels like a threat " I have to make adjustments to meet my needs".

I also wouldn't speak in terms of "my needs". To me the next response might be what about MY needs? In my experience, pwBPD tend to be overwhelmed with their own feelings which makes it difficult to consider someone else's feelings or needs.

I would keep it to the situation:

"I'm happy to hear you love snuggling, I love to snuggle as well. However, I am attracted to you and when we snuggle without our clothes on, I get aroused. When this happens, it is physically and emotionally painful for me to have to hold back. I love and care about you, but I do not want to continue doing something that is painful to me. "

[Notwendy]

Also, be aware that when setting a boundary, the response may not be pleasant. Read about the extinction burst.

Boundaries are not for the other person. We can not control them. Boundaries are about protecting what is important for us- our personal values. This boundary is not for her, but for you. It's physically and emotionally hurtful for you to do this. You are not asking her to do something but stating that you do not wish to do this. Your reason is about you.

As to her, I do not know why she is doing this. Does she feel sex is somehow a bad thing for religious reasons?  ( it isn't in marriage) Does she do this as proof that you love her "if you loved me you would overcome your biology and feelings and stop? " Whatever it is you can also love yourself enough to not do this to yourself if it is painful to you.

I also don't think you need to explain the biology. There is nothing wrong with you. You are a male and wired to be aroused in this situation. It doesn't mean you get to be a brute about it, but you also don't need to apologize for the way you were created. She's a married woman- she isn't clueless about something most of us figured out during the first slow dance with a boy in middle school. Why do you think the teachers made us dance at arms length?  

[HouseDad3]

Thank you all, great feed back!

I only have a couple minutes before jumping back into the chaos!

Sex began to taper off a couple years ago, about the time we learned though therapy about BPD. Looking back the BPD signs were there but realizing it was a defined disorder was a major eye opener. She has devolved in her willingness for treatment since. I flip back and forth between hope and despair but I’ve maintained my therapy.

We had great sex in the past. I’d be content getting back to what we had.

I really appreciate your comments on crafting my statement. I’ve been doing some “soul searching” because of your feed back. Like the recommendation about not using “ adjustment” in my statement. I agree it’s vague. It got me thinking, “Why did I pick that word?”  I think it is a passive aggressive word to use. I wanted her to wonder “what adjustment?”  Looking at it now, it would cause her to think I’m unfaithful, when she has never accused me of that before. I’ve been faithful and I am not willing to go down that road. So, thanks again. That was a poor word choice and a hard realization I need to look at MY motives and desires.

Does that seem... .sound?  I don’t know.

I do know I prefer to “not deal” with problems and as my therapist said, “How’s that working for you?”  It’s not.

Gotta run and prep mentally for this evening’s events which are sure to be filled with unpredictable behaviors.

HD3

PS. There has not been any snuggling - but it’s also been chaotic at home with her visiting BPD mother, so we’ve all crashed in bed exhausted and gotten up to hit the day running. (I’d like to film my wife and her mother’s exchanges - such an alarming example of BPD and JADEing between them and watching their increasing frustration. Witnessing their exchanges has been hard and despair sets in at how overwhelming this must be for the pwBPD.  It is also sad and I won’t film it because it feels like exploitation.)

[Red5]

Well guess I will chime in,

I have been married before, and am ten years into my second marriage.

I have always had a good sexy drive if that’s what we want to call it, after all I am a guy, a hot red blooded male,

I remember my first marraige in which I was married to a damaged but yet beautiful young lady, she had lots of issues, won’t go into all that here... .I got rejected all the time in the waning years of that marriage... .

Had a hot GF in the meantime, learned a lot from her besides sex, and I am talking about behavior disorders, she wanted to get married, but I was too gun shy due to the ink being still wet on my divorce papers, so she moved on to the next Mark... .

Then I met u/BPD stb wife, wow! Sex Sex Sex ie’ Love Bomb  !

Now, it’s back to rejection, teasing, snuggling, and rinse wash and repeat... .

So now, I ain’t nineteen, or twenty two, or even thirty three, now I am fifty plus, and I have consigned myself to “no more sex for you old man”... .when she does want it, the build up has gone on for so long, that it’s just another friggen chore, it’s for her and not me, so put away those naughty thoughts Red5 and just assume the position... .

Kind of sad really, as I was labled quite a “lady killer” back in high school  .

Now I am just another old race horse looking at the front door of the glue factory.

Don’t take it so hard man, just part of life... .and good luck!

Red5

[Notwendy]

Hey Red, I doubt you are ready for the glue factory yet. Is she older too? As a post menopausal woman, I admit the hormones aren't there like they used to be but that doesn't mean the end of sex. They say when it comes to being ready for sex, if men are like microwaves, women are like ovens. Well, menopause can make it like slow cookers. Sometimes we just aren't ready, but if someone takes the time to get us in the mood- well then we are.

This was a difficulty for us. Actually always was. My H complained it wasn't enough when we were young and there was plenty of it ( I thought there was) but somehow his memory lapsed about that and he would complain that we "never" have sex, even if it was two days before that. The complaining resulted in resentment on my part. Like you, I did it just to keep the arguments down at night and not wake up the kids, plus, I wanted to sleep. I felt more like a sex provider than a wife who is loved.

Fast forward to menopause. The drive becomes even more emotionally driven and less hormonal driven. Yes, we still have sex but frequency is less. He isn't happy about that, but he wasn't happy about it even when it was more frequent. The bottom line: I don't think he'd be happy no matter how much and the truth is- even he can't keep up with his 20 year old abilities either.

My idea of what sex should be like after 50 is two people who can relate to each other emotionally and physically- perhaps less frequently but as satisfying as compared to sex that is both hormonal driven as well as emotionally driven for younger people. With less hormones, there needs to be more of the other stuff- emotions, connection, more physical time to warm up- ie more cuddling.

We've been able to work on a lot of stuff in the marriage and make it better thankfully. Sex has been difficult- it is getting better. What is difficult for me to get over is the years of complaining- something he hardly remembers but it took a toll on my self esteem- which also affects sex drive. Personally, I would love some of that cuddling, but I feel it is all about getting down to business so I just get to it- might as well just do the job. He knows it and doesn't like it and wishes I felt differently but it seems that what I needed- more cuddling, he just didn't want to do. I don't know how to change the years of conditioning. I always cared about the marriage and wanted to keep sex in it, but felt I had to meet his idea of that without being able to ask for mine. My own co dependency played a part in this.

Guys, I know you want sex, but we probably need more cuddling than you do. I don't think it is right or fair to naked cuddle and with hold sex, but cuddling alone meets a certain need and to be honest, I wish there was more of that in my situation. If I bring it up- what I hear is " I am always thinking about your needs and we cuddle enough" . Different perspectives but what does one do after hearing that?

[HouseDad3]

... .”assume the position.” 

Is literally, word for word, what she says to me when she wants to snuggle!

For me, I don’t feel like sex is a chore. I do love to cuddle!  Where it falls apart is when I attempt to transition to the “physical warm up.”  When my wife is in the mood, it’s like I want to freeze time. I want to have all the time needed to ensure she is “warmed up” and having as great of time as I. (Honesty, I’m closer to the “premature” side of the spectrum than the “everlasting” so foreplay helped extend what I thought would be an enjoyable time for both of us.)  However, the most common scenario is her saying, “Just do it already.”  Then I’m left with the feeling she’s just tolerating me for a brief moment to get me to stop “bugging her.”  Our intimacy time could be recorded in seconds and I’m left wondering how I’ve failed.

Am I disappointing her with my physical appearance?  I’m of average build, active but not muscular, balding and gray, not the same look I was 20 years ago when we met. She has taken shots at my appearance to include the color of my teeth, shaving habits, and hair length (I keep my hair buzzed -bald is beautiful! But she’d prefer something longer - which doesn’t work for me and my male pattern baldness).  I realize these are MY insecurities.

I agree with Notwendy, the drive is more emotionally based. So that’s the difficulty with a BPD partner and all the emotional disconnects we have within our respective relationships. We struggle in a lot of our connections, not just sex, and that often leads me down the path to despair. I end up asking myself, “How will this relationship improve?  If we can’t even have a simple conversation about what we’d like for dinner, how are we going to work on the larger complex issues?”  The uprising of fear, frustration, and trust issues is haunting.

I understand allowing your partner time to be emotionally ready. But as the months tick by without intimacy and my previously mentioned arousing snuggle time leading to daily frustration, I can’t seem to see a clear path to resolution. Then I think about other areas we struggle to find common ground on, like child discipline, household finances, and the like.

I’m leery she won’t change her lack of desire for me if I set my boundaries. Then I’ll be out of sex and snuggles.

I’ve had the same thoughts as Red, “Do I consign myself?”  Is this how I live out my life?  I hope not.  There is more at stake then my sex life within my marriage.

I also need to confess a possible missed opportunity with my statement delivery this morning. Last night we had a late night event and me having a very early event today - leaving only about four hours to sleep.  Upon getting home late last night, she opened a sugary soda and guzzled it. I thought, “That sugar high is going to have her up all night.”  She often reads into the wee hours and she didn’t need to be up early like I did. While sleeping, I got awoken by her spooning me and rubbing up against me. She asked me to spoon her and in doing so my “now awake body part” touched between her legs and it was met with the all to familiar “nope.”  I turned away and she dozed off to sleep. I got out of bed about 30min later to dress for my early morning event and she says to me, “Where were my snuggles? I had to travel three days, pack a lunch, and cross the vast desert to find you.” (Her description of scooting from her side of the bed to mine to snuggle.). I say, “Sounds like quite the adventure.”  She made a pout and I continued dressing and headed out.

HD3

[formflier]

... .”assume the position.” 

 

Am I correct in saying that this is not a playful thing?  Stuff like this can be fun... .when both are on the same page... .it doesn't seem you are on the same page.

I don't think you should have this conversation anywhere near the bedroom or a snuggle.  Likely too much emotional stuff tied up in that.

Take her out to starbucks, get her a coffee and pastry.  Some pleasant conversation and then... .

"There is something important to me that I'd like to talk about... ."

Of course... .tone of voice, volume, relatively privacy all matter.

Perhaps this could be better on the couch at home after bringing her a water... or tea.

You know her best.  Other than bedroom, where would be best.

FF

[Notwendy]

That could be quite the topic for Starbucks!  I hope it isn't crowded  But I agree with FF, in the moment may not be the best time to discuss it. Better to be in a quiet, calm mood and place.

What is your wife thinking when she "snuggles" and then says no?  As a mature married woman, she knows what affect that has on you. Have the two of you ever discussed her wanting to do this?

It is said that pwBPD are emotionally younger than their years. Where is your wife emotionally? Is she at adolescence where it wasn't comfortable to go beyond second base? But then, we weren't naked snuggling either. Does she enjoy the tease? Does she have any awareness of how that is to you on a constant basis?

Also, she has hormones and a drive as well. What happens to her when she does this and how does she manage the arousal? You know, she is taking care of that somehow. Not insinuating it is anyone else, but solo- without you.  Do you know what she needs to be sexual satisfied? Is this part of it?  Perhaps this needs to be discussed.

If you set the boundary, consider how are you going to protect yourself from being spooned in the middle of the night and waking up a certain body part? It seems that if you are going to establish a boundary, there isn't much protection for you when you are asleep. To keep a boundary, you will need to also establish what you are going to do if she does this when you are sleeping, as you are wired to go for it and this gives her an opportunity even if you discuss it.

[reluctanthubs]

How have you avoided the "You must be getting it from somewhere else" conversation?  Thats for the both of you.  If my wife wouldnt let me have it and made me do that to her I'd be EFFING PISSED.  I'm already pissed with my level and that is about 4 times a month if I'm lucky.  I mean if you know you wife self serves then I guess thats a decent place to start, but if she wants to feel loved or desired by you, but giving it away to someone else GTFOT. 

Geez man if Ioose an erection during sex because thoughts of my wife's affair pop into my head I'm already banging someone else in her mind.

[HouseDad3]

Sorry for the delay, it's been very chaotic here with her BPD mother's recent visit. That's an entire different multi-post!

Quick update:  I have not snuggled her naked since my last update about it. I have not found the "right time," if that's even possible, to make my boundary statement either. I feel it's both my own issue and ability, not wanting to cause further conflict and also my pattern of closing off, and timing. I haven't snuggled (clothed) her much at all lately, either.

She's had some episodes, not related to the snuggling but other family/kid related stresses. One occurred two days ago, which for me was a big deal. She/We have been adamant teaching our kids to "not hate."  Whenever one of our kids said they hated something she would use it as a learning lesson and basically say, "We don't HATE or use that word lightly in this family. You may dislike something or prefer something else." (when the kids where young this usually was a food related topic). As the kids got older the topics and explanations broadened to include race, religion, sexual orientation, disability, etc.  My wife, even in private, rarely said she hated something.

Two days ago she texted a mutual friend, with whom we had plans for a visit, stating, "... .I f*cking hate my husband and my teenage son is a total d*ick to me." My wife then sent me the screen shots of her comments.

For me, that was extremely hurtful. For her to use "hate" and for deeper insult to add "f*cking" to it, while sending it to a valued friend was one of the most painful things.

I absolutely know she sent that while peaking during an episode. I didn't respond or show her that it bothered me. I felt she was looking for that rise or fight and I wasn't going to give in. Our friend saw through the BS and he and I had a great visit and we had some private discussions about her condition. He has a family member that is bi-polar so I felt he had a great understanding. He was great and his visit seemed to help bring her down as well.

To answer one of your questions. I don't feel my wife is unfaithful. I don't mind if she's self servicing but I don't see that either. She claims her medications have wiped out her sex drive. In the past, I would find her self servicing but it has been years since that has happened and does line up with her beginning meds. So I've been chalking it up to that.

I see my therapist this morning. I'll have a lot to process. I know she was episoding. I know it's the disorder. I don't know if I can continue this with her. I don't see her getting better. I fear I'll have to leave to save myself but at the expense of my kids well being which terrifies me more. My kids are very close and we have great connection. I can see them pulling away from her as her episodes increase in frequency, intensity, and with them becoming the targets more.

Struggling, HD3

[Red5]

Two days ago she texted a mutual friend, with whom we had plans for a visit, stating, "... .I f*cking hate my husband and my teenage son is a total d*ick to me." My wife then sent me the screen shots of her comments.

Sometimes I really hate cell phones... .yes, they are capable of so many awesome and great things (tools), but they can also be the source of some really bad things too.

If in the right and as well capable hands, .one person can do; and effect a whole heap of damage with a cell phone in quite short order... . 

Red5

[Fian]

I really encourage you to talk to her about the issue.  Currently you have chosen a path where neither of you win, and that won't change until you talk about it.  While I think that talking in person is best, it seems you have difficulty doing that.  If that is the case, maybe it would be better that you wrote her a letter or email.  The key thing is you find some way to communicate with her.  This is key in any relationship.

[AustenJ]

I feel for you... .sexual rejection by a personwBPD is a staple of the disorder. Sex to them is a coping mechanism for them and a control mechanism for you by them. There is no real love or intimacy or compassion on their part when it comes to their partners' sexual satisfaction. They are not satisfied with their bodies so they are never really satisfied by the act of sex... .not like nons are.

Sex for me has always been about "making love' and fully taking care of the needs of my partner first. Sex for my diagnosed exgfBPD was always just sex, simply a coping mechanism to get out of her own head for a brief moment, never love-making, although it appeared that way to me in the early part of our relationship (all she was doing was mirroring me and my style and desires and reflecting them back to me).

She is a beautiful creature and is 28 years my junior, but I can honestly say that she has been the worst lover I have ever had. Her lack of compassion and empathy plus her sexual hang-ups were always a hindrance in the bedroom. She has been with close to 80 or more men and has never had an orgasm through intercourse, never. The only way she could have an orgasm was by masturbating in a very shameful lonely manner. She despised oral sex, giving and receiving. Vaginas are gross. She refused any manual manipulation of me. Being older, it always took more work to achieve my orgasms, which she was never interested in giving me a hand with... .so I was actually "faking" a majority of my orgasms so I wouldn't make her feel bad... .basically, when she was done having sex, we both were done... .she had no interest in fulfilling my desires... .as we know, sex must be a two way street in a successful relationship... .

[Daffodill]

Wow, I thought I was the only one who was having issues with sex.  I keep reading how everyone thinks sex with the BPD is so great, but it's not.  While it may have been good in the beginning, its been so long I don't really remember.  He stopped wanting to have sex with me early in our relationship saying we needed to slow down.  We went 2 months without it before he was interested again.  But, after that one weekend, he only wanted it once a month, at the most, and only he could initiate it.  He shut me down before I could even attempt to initiate, telling me that he knew I didn't want it because we were having problems.  I didn't know what to say, just went along with it as it seemed easier.  He would blame me sometimes, saying we didn't have it because I didn't initiate it, but even though he never stopped with the basic physical affection and cuddling, I never got any feeling that he was remotely interested in having any sort of sexual contact.  It was all so strange.  And then, I found out he was cheating on me with two other women at the same time.  That caused a breakup that lasted a month before he came back saying he had made a mistake and do would do whatever it took.  He even agreed to and actually went to counseling. But, still no sex.  This time, I didn't want it either since he had cheated, but he again told me he knew I wouldn't want it yet.  He took the decision away from me.  I figured he didn't want it for some reason, but I could never figure out why.  I still have no clue.

[AustenJ]

In our relationship our sexual intimacy ultimately engulfed her and triggered her core trauma--she could not handle the emotions swirling in her head--sex had become more than a physical coping mechanism for her. Sex was never a way for her to take care of my needs and increase the intimacy between us. Sex wasn't done out of her love for me, not in a way that I loved her. I was totally drawn to her in a close, intimate and loving way... .at the apex of our relationship, or so I thought... .to her that apex totally freaked her out and she destroyed our bond that I thought was unbreakable because we were so close and appeared so deeply in love. That's why it's so hard on nons... .we share and love deeply, finally allowing the pwBPD to enter our sphere, sharing in each other... .only for the pwBPD to suddenly dump us and run into the arms of another. , At the pinnacle of our love and caring, they sabotage and destroy in an effort to protect themselves... .