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Author Topic: D17 having trouble with emotional regulation and respect in midst of DV drama  (Read 592 times)
Radcliff
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« on: February 15, 2018, 02:33:15 AM »

Hello parents,

I've been a regular over on Bettering for the last year as I've been coping with my BPDw, but this is going to be my first, fumbling, newbie post on the parenting board.

We don't have a diagnosis for D17, and many things are going well in her life, like success in school and sports, but she has been highly emotionally reactive since she was a toddler, and as the daughter of my BPDw has been raised in an environment that can sometimes be very invalidating.  My BPDw has been out of our home for the last three months on a domestic violence restraining order for abuse against me that included heavy parental alienation.  So in this environment where I've just been the guy to pull the fire alarm and separate the family, I'm trying to establish parental authority over a highly reactive and independent teenager (I have a D12 and a D19, so I'm no stranger to "typical" teenage daughter drama; D17 is at a different level).  Particularly for the last two years, my wife has been battling against me and undermining me when we should have been working together on D17's behaviors.  Now we have just a few months before she launches to college.

My goals are very modest, I think.  I want her to treat everyone in our home with basic respect, and I need to know where she is at all times.  With my wife out of the home, respect is the new rule in this house.  Sneers of contempt, yelling in response to gentle inquiries, threats, name calling, that stuff has to go.

Tonight we had an incident that is going to lead me to ask my lawyer to include D17 on an emergency custody screening order (we had been planning on only using it for D12, and leaving D17 as a free agent to come and go as she pleases). 

Some background to understand the story below: my mother is terminally ill with lung cancer, and has been visiting for a few days, due to fly home tomorrow morning.  This may be the last time she sees our children.

Tonight D17 snuck out of the house to go to her mom's apartment to work on a scholarship application.  A wholesome activity, but she ducked out without hugging my mom goodbye, a very selfish and thoughtless move.  And she didn't tell me where she was going, I just discovered my daughter was missing late in the evening, and I had to guess where she went.  I went to my wife's apartment, saw D17's car, and texted that my daughter needed to drive 5 minutes home to hug my mom good night (I don't know if this is sounding silly, but we're working on basic respect behaviors with D17, and a caring goodbye to a dying grandmother seemed like a stand worth making, for D17's sake, even if she doesn't realize it now).  D17 angrily refused, and said I was totally unreasonable, and she was going to move out.  Eventually, she went home to hug her grandmother good night.

I had a text conversation afterwards with BPDw where she wasn't making complete sense (she probably was pretty upset), but was trying to be constructive, where she said that she is trying to help D17 regulate her emotions.  It sounds like BPDw is recognizing from her DBT training that D17 has some similar issues.  BPDw said D17 left the house without telling me where she was going because D17 was upset and didn't want to say something to me that she regretted.  Before D17 left the house, I'd said a couple of things like, "You look like you still feel sick," and, "Can I get you anything?"  If that upset her, then DBT is definitely what she needs.  Or she was lying, or warping facts to fit emotions, in which case DBT is definitely what she needs (I realize I may be setting myself up for a "hammer looking for a nail" comment  )

My plan in reaction to this is to ask my lawyer to add D17 to the custody screening we were just going to do for D12, which can include mandatory therapy.  I'm thinking we want to get D17 to a DBT therapist, there are too many behaviors like her mom.

D17's lack of empathy, emotional regulation, and abusive verbal behaviors are setting off alarm bells, and I feel like we need to figure out how to respond to this as a family crisis, in the middle of dealing with two other family crises (my wife's removal from our home, and my mother's terminal illness).  I want to make as much progress as possible before D17 heads off to college in the fall.

I feel like the newbie I am on this board!  It's late, I'm tired and feel like I just got run over by a truck.  I focused on the most recent painful incident, and am not sure I gave you enough background or correctly identified the most urgent problem.  I don't know what I don't know.  I would welcome any advice or questions.

WW
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« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2018, 02:51:10 AM »

Hi Wentworth sorry to hear of your problems,

Your Daughter is going to have a very hard time keeping regulated with the exit of your wife, and now ( regrets ) your ailing mother, she will find it hard to see anyone's perspective but her own, and it might be shaping up to be a perfect storm scenario,

I wish you all the best.
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WWW
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2018, 04:33:56 AM »

Hi!  I too have a D17 and you describe your D17 similarly to mine.  Her father is a uNarc, for real, at least that is what all the licsw and my own therapists say (he left when D17 was just 3years old but the kids were with him a lot, he was just a few doors down and ultimately custody arranagements forced them to be with him at least every other wknd - but that is for another thread!)

I also have D20 and S4.  I hear you!  The kids, including D17, witnessed DV as a result of uNarc and S4's father (neither of whom we are now with) but sadly I am certain that is part of what has made D17 act exactly as you describe your D17 (being disrespectful, almost missing her grandmother's good bye, disappearing to places and her not telling me where she is, etc)  but what I have learned is that she in fact is dealing with the trauma of a uNarc and of the DV (my stupidity allowing S4's father around, and of course he is still in picture often coming by to pick up S4 for custodial visits thanks to courts but he does not live here).

But there is no question that D17;s reactions are more trauma response than BPD.  I am thinking, her exposure to narcs may be similar to her exposure to your D17's exposure to her mother. 

I finally found her a good weekly therapist she can walk to from school and that has seemed to ease a little of what appears to be BPD stuff.  Also, she is doing DBT at school because of having missed a lot of school last year due to physical illness.  DBT is used for helping kids dealing with anxeity and depression often fm missing much school.

before her counselors and i figured out what was really going on, i was begging her father to assist in her behaviors.  he would respond all concerned, and even have good ideas on what to do (though he never followed through), and finally so many counselors pointed out to me that his actions are very much self-focused (god, was i in denial about the narcissism too?

So, I did a google search today, and found there is a lot of research out there that points to the very difficult way to see the difference between ptsd and BPD.   i am guessing that the love and constancy you have given D17 through the years has at least kept her free but also has given her internal personal tools to deal with her mother.  DBT is also helpful for teen trauma, anyway, just my 2cents, hope i am not breakng any board rules by talking of ptsd. i am newbie to the boards! 

i guess i am especially saying:  treatment for ptsd is very different than treatment for BPD.  therapists with the best of intentions who cannot discern the difference, do their patients a disservice.

Of course I dont' know her whole story!  Maybe it is teen BPD?  but just wanted to share I too am going through tremendous dealing with my D17 and your post just coincided with my own investigations tonight so thought I'd chime in.

wishing you all the joy your family can muster!  and i am so sorry to hear of your mum. 

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« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2018, 06:47:18 AM »

Hi Wentworth,

I would not be thrilled by all of your daughters behaviors either, particularly leaving without telling you where she was going, but I did want to share the experience of a young sensitive Panda... .Hmmm who could that be? Being cool (click to insert in post)

I was about your daughter's age when I lost my Granddaddy to cancer.  I loved my Granddaddy dearly but it was the first death of someone close to me.  I had a hard time dealing with his loss and I handled it by acting as if it wasn't happening , I did of course understand he was dying. When he finally died I didn't attend his funeral... .seems like a horribly insensitive thing for a granddaughter to do.  I just couldn't go because I couldn't face/deal with the loss there in front of the world.  I handled in my own way.

I tell you this so that maybe you can let your daughter handle your mother's illness in her own way.  It may not be the way you would handle it but it is her way.  A final hug and good bye would be extremely painful and I as a young girl would have avoided that like the plague.  Not because I didn't love my grandmother but because the thought of saying good bye would have been intolerable.

In terms of getting your daughter into therapy I would encourage that due to all of the change going on her life, having someone to talk to would be helpful no matter if she has bigger issues or not.

Panda39
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« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2018, 07:48:55 AM »

You have a long list of behaviors you want your D17 to change, WW.

She sounds like a difficult kid, and I understand your concern that she may be developing antisocial behaviors that will harm her in life. But there is also a lot of stuff in there about how she's just rude and unpleasant, and it feels like you want to send her to charm school boot camp.

She's practically a legal adult at this point, and your ability to influence her to change her personality is limited at best.

If you want to find her a therapist or BPD program and try to sell her on going as a way to help her to deal with the stresses of her family situation -- that might be the best approach to gain her cooperation. Getting her into therapy because you dislike her behavior & attitude and want it to change -- that's not going to go anywhere, even if you can get a court evaluator to recommend it.
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« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2018, 11:06:39 PM »

I didn't mention this earlier , however since no one else has

Either you or your wife, if your daughter is BPD will be painted black, or both

Your daughter will not be happy ( things are not going well ) and someone will be blamed, there is no grey here.

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Fond memories, fella.


« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2018, 11:51:12 PM »

You have a long list of behaviors you want your D17 to change, WW.

flourdust, I have a very short list:
1.  Do not scream
2.  Do not speak to anyone in the home with contempt
3.  I must know where she is at all times.

I really don't think I'm overreaching here.  But I do appreciate your point that she is just months from being an adult, and I need to understand the limits of what I can achieve.

Panda39, I really appreciate your perspective.  This is a complex situation, but some of what you are talking about may be at play here.  In fact, when I was 19, my mother's mother died, and I was very stressed out in college.  I stuck my head in the sand and didn't reach out to her -- I was scared of the situation.  That lifelong regret is one of the things driving my desire for D17 to make the connection and do better than I did, but in my determination to do that I was not appreciating that she may feel much like I did.  Thanks for giving me that perspective!

birdbird and SlyQQ, thank you for your replies!
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« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2018, 05:16:34 AM »

Hi Wentworth, welcome to the parenting board, I’m sure you will find lots of help and support here.

The thing that I picked up on is what you said to your daughter before her disappearing act. Do you think that you may have triggered her by saying to her “You look like you still feel sick”? I interpret that as you telling her how she is, you are making a statement about her. I understand that you said it because you care about her, maybe better to have said something like “I’m worried about you, are you still feeling sick?” Whatever it was, she was definitely upset enough to leave without letting you know.

I am very sorry to hear about your Mum, you certainly have a lot to contend with at the moment. Add to it the fact that you have given yourself extra pressure by wanting to address your daughters behaviour in just a few months. I understand that completely, I have been there, done that with my own uBPD son.
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« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2018, 11:57:30 AM »

Hi there Wentworth 

I join others here welcoming you to the parents board WW, I'm really glad you've joined us here for support. 

I relate to what Panda says for your D17 to find her way how to deal with your mothers terminal illness in her own way, you can support her doing this. The opposite happened to me - being the youngest I was not told my uncle was dying, all my sibs went to see him before he became noticeably unwell, I was told in the very last days, taken to see him which was shocking, I was 14 and felt emotionally and physically excluded. It's really important to step into our children's shoes and understand how they feel, can bring us close together. And you need support through this too WW, we are here for you. 

Always aiming to improve core relationships with family members what you learn here you can apply to all relationships, I use them at work. We can't change others, we can only change ourselves and how we communicate in ways that can help improve the relationship so they know we are on their side, we are listening to them. Does your DD17 talk to you about her feelings about what's happening to her family, understand what is happening and why, that your objective is to keep the family together, she's onside with that? Can she see how hard you are working? Do you get to have a heart to heart with her, to reinforce what she needs to hear from you, to gain her confidence?

Start here WW - Lessons: what can a parent do? I'm sure you'll recognise some from the Bettering board.
Then take a look to your right at the tools and lessons, quick links  Bullet: important point (click to insert in post) are you familiar with these, can you see any that might help you? Some feel counter intuitive and require practice, practice. Some are tools/skills used in DBT, your wife is learning.

You say you appreciate DD is just months from being an adult, and you need to understand the limits of what you can achieve. 18 is not a cut off date, there are no limits to what you can achieve  - this is a life long relationship, what you start now, the changes you make, you continue - am I making sense to you?  I'm unclear what you want to achieve by a temporary custody order WW for a couple of months? Could this inflame the situation, as at 18 you can't force someone into therapy and it is not recommended we tell our loved ones we think they have BPD, traits. I know this is a condition you asked of your wife and she's accepted your conditions, but that's a completely different situation. Looking at it from your DD's position I wonder if your DDs likely to feel a custody order is received that you don't trust her as a result of going out once without telling you. What do you think WW?

WDx
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« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2018, 02:41:05 PM »

WW I forgot to share with you my 29DD is a quiet borderline, she internalises, a high achiever in structured school, college, uni environment, though obviously struggling throughout till she hit meltdown - crisis at 27 now working well to remission,  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

As a quiet pw BPD my DD has not subjected me to screaming, contempt you are experiencing.

As she is quiet pw BPD my DD

likely screamed at herself, less these days following DBT, she gets it
likely held herself to contempt, less these days following DBT, she gets it
She tells me where she is when it fits her - out late/staying over as I asked her to when she was 15/16, I gave her, her rope - she knows I care for her and appreciates that, safety here in London is a must. I handed her the responsibility to text me at 11pm to let me know if she's making her way home (in cab) or staying with her friends. She knows I'm here if she gets unstuck. She has occasionally reached out to me in a big pickle, she also has good friends to call on who understand her diagnosis, as a single child that what's I've encouraged healthy friendships, even not knowing of her struggles.

What do you think your DD17 needs most from you at this time? Tough question I think.

WDx
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« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2018, 11:44:03 PM »

Hello all,

So, the other night D17 moved into my wife's apartment.  Or at least, she announced she was moving there, and has slept there the last three nights, but I haven't seen her move her stuff.  So I have had almost no contact with D17 since then.  I texted to invite her to stay in our home tonight, and she never responded.  I understand that the best thing I can do is to remain calm and interact with her positively at every opportunity.  I understand that I don't have a lot of levers to pull, and need to just be patient.  But I cannot help but feel that after telling me she would take the kids from me, my wife has stolen D17.  I already had so little contact time with her because she hid in her room.  Already there wasn't enough contact time to do the relationship work I needed to do with her (working through the approach in "Transforming the Difficult Child -- The Nurtured Heart Approach".

Last night, my wife invited me to help D17 with a scholarship essay, remotely over the computer.  I did, and her essays were amazing, so I was able to give her a lot of positive feedback for that.  In the midst of that, my wife went far into inappropriate territory by text with me, discussing the future of our relationship:

This evening my wife and I were texting about bills and helping D17 with something, and my wife got into relationship territory.  (Yes, oddly, we can text about bills after she has launched a nuclear salvo.)  I let myself gets sucked into a conversation, which I am not supposed to do.  She said she wants us to get to a better place, and she's done everything I asked, and why won't I work on the relationship.  She does not understand the damage that has been done, and cannot fathom why I have been standing back from the relationship for three months.  I said the letter made it pretty hard to work on the relationship.  She asked what part of the letter.  She has absolutely no ability to use logic or empathy to understand this situation.  Utterly absent the ability to understand my perspective, or that perspectives other than hers can exist.  I have known her for decades, but yet, tonight, somehow was still surprised at the extent of the disconnect.  She said she is confused.  I was so sad.  She is cannot be a partner.  She is not safe to be with.  But she is not evil.  Don't confuse my empathy with a desire to get back together with her.  It was almost simpler to feel like she was evil.  That she just does not have the capacity, that is even more depressing.  And just as damning to any potential for a relationship. 

My point is that when we were supposed to be focusing on D17, and my wife had invited me to participate, she then derailed it with her own needs and her inability to grasp anything else.

So I feel like I have lost D17.  It's only been three days, and she may swing back this way, but I know my wife is doing everything she can to get close to D17 and make it cozy over there.  To face the prospect of losing the relationship with D17, to fracture our family even further, is devastating.  This is why I kept our family together for so long, because all of the relationships revolved around my wife.  If I asked for help, I knew it could blow everything apart and I could lose the children.  That is why I stayed in an abusive relationship.  D12 is a bright spot.  We ate dinner tonight and laughed and had fun.  Tomorrow I'm getting on a plane to go to an oncologist with my mom and meet her minister to talk about funeral arrangements for a few months from now.  All of this loss is hard to handle at once.

WW
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« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2018, 04:35:09 AM »

WW

I hear your sadness   you want to spend time with your DD17 to work on relationship, you have a heavy load to bear and will be away visiting your mother for the next few days. Have you considered how to connect with your DD17, perhaps by inviting her for dinner with you and DD12 the day you return? Do you think it likely she'll take advantage of the empty home while you are away, is that allowed? It may help move things past the last few days.  I'm so sorry your wife said she would take the kids from you, statements like that stay in mind and situations like DD17 staying over not responding can make it feel real. Though if your wife had never said that and the situation happened like it did your focus would be just on your DD17's behaviour. As you say patience and calm is what's needed right now, you are there for the long haul and there are opportunities ahead for you to work with your DD17, right now everything is upon you, pace yourself. While you say all relationships revolve around your wife, ok they have but not in a healthy way, she's undermined your parenting and this is what you are addressing, taking back your right to be the father your children need. We are standing strong with you.

When the time is right for you, do share with us what you find helpful from the approach in "Transforming the Difficult Child -- The Nurtured Heart Approach".

WW do you have family, friends of your mothers for support?

My thoughts and prayers are with you. 

WDx
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« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2018, 10:41:43 AM »

Hi Wentworth.  There is one thing I want to comment on as I think you are placing far too much pressure on yourself:

Excerpt
So I feel like I have lost D17.  It's only been three days, and she may swing back this way, but I know my wife is doing everything she can to get close to D17 and make it cozy over there.  To face the prospect of losing the relationship with D17, to fracture our family even further, is devastating.  This is why I kept our family together for so long, because all of the relationships revolved around my wife.  If I asked for help, I knew it could blow everything apart and I could lose the children.  That is why I stayed in an abusive relationship
I may not be understanding your words well so correct me if needed but (!) the situation with your daughter today was set in motion a long time ago.  You did not fracture your family by following through on the DV charges.  The steps you have taken will actually help you and all your kids regardless of what your D17 is doing right now.  What was going on before was not healthy and offered no chance of a healthy outcome for anyone.

I am so sorry to hear about your mother.  You have a lot going on and I imagine the stress and grief are high.  so give yourself a break on the things you can.

Praying for peace.
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« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2018, 08:13:29 PM »

Hi Wentworth and these words may be hard so my apologies in advance.

After our family split up I raised my stepdaughters, the eldest of whom is BPD,

Despite being an A student she would melt down, at exam time and i struggled to get her

through highschool,

the same thing happened with her first year at uni, she blamed me one way or another went into hospital and when she came out went off to live with her mother, I realized at this stage i had to let her go,

sometimes people with BPD have to crash and burn ( and it is really risky )on the way to getting better,

After about ten months ( unsurprisingly )  she came back, everyone is happier and things are ok ( thats as probably as good as it gets )

hope this helps somehow
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« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2018, 08:51:50 PM »

Hello all, thank you so much for all of the kind and wise words.  I will read through them several times to make sure they all sink in.

 I had a short talk with D17 today.  She said that she feels like the supervisor restrictions on my wife are "bullsh*t".  I thanked her for being honest with me, and said that while I disagree with her, I appreciated that she was honest with me.  Interestingly, she had a level voice in a reasonable tone when she was saying all of this.  It made it much easier to talk with her.

I want dissent to be OK.  I'd much rather hear how someone feels than have them act out and not tell me why (I didn't say all of that).  I want her to be safe expressing herself to me.

There's no way I will change her mind now, especially when my wife is reinforcing that view.  Interestingly, five minutes after that conversation, D17 was perfectly nice with me about trading off with the laundry machine.  So perhaps she is not lost, and perhaps with time, her attitude will change.  But I'm still very worried.

I will do my best to be patient, and kind, and to contain my responses if I get triggered or overwhelmed with emotion.

WW
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« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2018, 01:14:09 PM »

Hi Wentworth

I haven't been logging in too often nowadays - probably because I'm not in pain!  But when each of my dd's were about to move out, and here and there in the years before that, the contempt/respect thing was a huge source of pain and conflict for me.  (I have two dd's who experienced abandonment and abuse as kids, and two who did not, so I can kind of compare reactivities; I don't know that any of them have BPD per se, but abandonment produces a lot of the same emotions and behaviors).  A teacher friend explained to me that often at-risk students would do the same thing when about to leave her class, that is was a form of rejecting-before-being-rejected.  I felt at times I was hanging on by a thread, and in fact maybe lost some parts of the relationship - but now, two years later, feel like we have a strongly respectful and positive relationship even if not as close.

So what things help? 

For me, focusing on one or two simple and concrete things helps, because we might not all agree on the way things should be said, but the simple concrete action is clear - like coming back to give her grandmother a hug.  The fact that she did it I think means she really does care, just that she was also upset and overwhelmed and acting out.

When the issue is that I am hurt or angry because of a disrepectful tone, going out without communicating, cutting off communication, etc, I've definitely handled it a lot of different ways, some of which I regretted.  The best way for me is if I can get to a point of expressing why the action hurt or affected me, without expecting a specific response; and also if I choose to applying a specific consequence without anger.  My rule for myself is I get to impose consequences if I can do it calmly!    Small step-wise consequences are better than really big ones.  Also it depends on the kid - one of my dd's would accept consequences, the other would accept them only if phrased as a request, that as a parent I am asking you to do this.  If its not phrased that way, it becomes a power struggle; but if put the right way she would accept being grounded for a week!

At 17 also things are changing so rapidly.  She's almost an adult, but not acting like one yet.  So explaining why things are important to you, and asking if or how she can address your concerns, can help.  There is a book called Explosive Child that I don't agree with some of the things, but it talks a lot about negotiating a 'plan B', kind of a problem solving approach that tries to address both parties' concerns, rather than a parent imposing rules.  This works for me when I can get the kid to sit down and talk about it, sometimes there was too much anger already so they wouldn't do the negotiating. 

Sorry this is so long!  But I definitely feel for where you are now, and I want to say there is hope at the end of the tunnel, in my experience after dd's went out into the world and got a few bumps and bruises I think they maybe appreciated family more, also just having that space just eliminated the anger part.  So now we just have no problem at all with disrespect, where that was a huge central thing before.  Its still not always easy for them being young adults, and I'm pretty hands off on their decisions in their lives, but the interactions we do have are positive.

Good luck and hang in there!
 


 

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Radcliff
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Fond memories, fella.


« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2018, 12:58:19 PM »

Hello all,

Thank you again for the wonderful support.  I had a difficult conversation with D17 last night where at my invitation she really laid out how she feels, and I listened.  I think at this point, issues of her emotional reactivity, and issues of parenting style, are secondary.  She is beyond upset about the supervised visits for D12, saying that I've taken D12 away from her mother.  D17 argued passionately for the benefit of D12, saying she needs to be with her mother.  D17 said all of the stereotypical things people say to abuse victims (it wasn't that bad, why did you stay if it was that bad, you are a grownup and shouldn't have let it happen, etc.).  She is 17, and does not understand entrapment and all that other stuff, but it was still devastating to hear.  I have no freaking idea if supervised visits for D12 are the path of least harm, if emotional abuse and parental alienation justify visit supervision or if it is just physical danger.  I just had to re-listen to an audio tape from last fall where my wife called D12 into our room and told her that I'm being ridiculous to complain about DV and because of what ":)addy's doing" a judge is going to tear the family apart.  That's the kind of twisted and toxic behavior I want to protect D12 from.  It's been four months since the restraining order and we've been trying to figure out how to get a custody evaluation started (we somehow wasted six weeks trying to figure it out on our own with a therapist I hired while the lawyers watched us).  Finally, we are on track with the official process.  D17 understands none of this, and feels that I've overreached with the supervised visitation.  Meanwhile, my therapist has just finished watching videos of my wife assaulting and abusing me and said the look on my wife's face is "chilling."  So there are multiple realities at play here, and they are painfully different.  Bottom line, we are going to get through the custody evaluation process this month, see what the recommendation is, and then try to heal from there.

My primary emotions now are grief and stress over the situation with D17.  I do not want to give up on that relationship.  I feel an urge to try to work with my wife's therapist (who I've had several constructive conversations with) in hopes of collaborating with my wife to get to a better place with D17, but I'm not sure that's a safe thing for me emotionally.  My wife's DBT therapist is good, experienced with BPD, and is wise to many of my wife's distortions, but inevitably when I talk to her I am exposed to my wife's distorted perspective which is pretty rough on me.  I am a problem solver, and it is just hard to see how to solve this problem or even take first steps given the players and their perspectives, and it makes my head hurt.  My best idea so far is to ask the custody evaluator to mandate parent-child therapy for me and D17.

WW
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« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2018, 02:39:10 PM »

Hi again Wentworth.  You did a great job listening even though what you daughter said was difficult to hear.  You said earlier that you want your daughter to feel free to talk (or something like that) and you certainly demonstrated that.

I don't have kids, so I have no parenting advice, but I may be able to offer some perspective (I am not too familiar with your story so I apologize if I what I say is already known).  Your daughter may be exhibiting BDHish behaviors but they are also the same sort of behaviors any teen who is going through big transitions, losses and has been abused will demonstrate.  

~She has witnessed domestic violence -- that is abuse.  

~She has an uBPD mother whose disorder is pervasive and therefore affects her parenting -- that is often abusive

~She may be enmeshed with her mother -- a sign of emotional abuse or emotional incest.  it is not uncommon for abused children to cling to, defend or show preference for the abusive parent.  It is very common for uBPD mothers to see their kids as extensions of themselves.

As I said previously, what you are seeing today has been years in the making.  I am not saying this to make you more sad.  I want you to take a look at the bigger picture.  She, and D12, grew up surrounded by abuse and mental disorders.  There will be damage and I think a lot of what you are seeing is the end result.

As you said, D17 does not and will not understand entrapment, enmeshment, emotional abuse, affects of domestic violence because it is what she grew up with and is what defined her normal.  Think about it; if it took you, an adult, this long to see it and be able to act on all of this, how will a child be able to see through all of it?

Have you given any thought to her question of "why did you stay so long if things were so bad?"  It is a very valid question and one that I thinks deserves an answer at some time in the future.

Again, I have no desire to cause you more pain Wentworth.  This is a difficult situation and you have taken steps to make corrections from here on out.  It is the past choices, actions, etc that you are going to have to come to terms with.  Look at your behaviors in context (ie, you being abused) but I think you also need to look at your choices in isolation to truly understand D17s comments and her perspective in addition to understanding and accepting that she too was horribly abused.

I wish you the very best Wentworth.  You are yours are in my prayers.
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  "What is to give light must endure burning." ~Viktor Frankl
Radcliff
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Fond memories, fella.


« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2018, 04:26:41 PM »

Have you given any thought to her question of "why did you stay so long if things were so bad?"  It is a very valid question and one that I thinks deserves an answer at some time in the future.

Harri, you make very good points and observations, thank you.  As to your question above, certainly I have thought about it.  It is not something she can understand now.  Perhaps years down the road.  Answering quickly, and surely I'll miss many more reasons, I will say:

* I wanted to try to make the relationship work; I wanted "happily ever after" with this 30 year relationship
* I was trapped by "toxic hope" and the abuse cycle.
* I wanted to keep the family together so we could all enjoy an intact family
* I wanted to keep the family together so I could spend more time with the children
* My wife threatened a domestic violence restraining order against me many times, so if I made any moves she didn't like, I faced the prospect of that.
* Moving out may legally have been seen as abandoning my kids, and would have impacted any claim for joint custody, yet living in the house with my wife during divorce proceedings would have been emotionally crippling (sleep deprivation, harrassment) and physically dangerous.

Many, many times in the past years, if I could have clicked my heels three times and been safely dropped into an apartment, divorced, with 50% custody, I would have done that.  I couldn't figure out how to exit safely.  My wife's control methods included taking my personal belongings like wallet, keys, cellphone, and work clothes.  They also included sleep deprivation into the wee hours of the morning, harassment while at work, limiting access to a car, limiting access to the children and sabotaging my parenting, destruction of support mechanisms (access to a therapist, access to this site), trapping me in rooms, blocking my exit from the house, and assault.  All done with the constant threat that if I reached out to the authorities, I would be in legal peril because she would claim I was abusive.

That's just off the top of my head.  I am sure I missed a bunch of things.  I was in a pretty bad spot.

WW
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