Starting a new chapter. I have no idea where things will go from here

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hey everyone,

It's been a long time since I posted here on this board. I posted a lot on the Improving board, but things have changed, and so I wanted to come over here and share an update on how things have been going.

For anyone who is new or just wants to catch up, I've been in a relationship with my uBPDw for 18 years now. We've been married for 15 years. The "first phase" of our marriage was from 2002 until 2006. We took a 2 year "break" in the middle of the marriage where we lived on opposite sides of the country. The second phase of our marriage started in 2008. After trying for 3 years, we had our first and only daughter in 2013.

Most of my posting here focuses on the stuff that's happened in the "second phase." For starters, it was only after starting the second phase that I finally discovered BPD. Also, I really gave up the last bits of my self esteem and my personal boundaries to try and create a "second try." I ended up cutting off my entire family or origin, went into extreme debt buying all sorts of jewels and vacations and other tokens, all in an attempt to satisfy demands my wife made.

I've come to realize these things that I blamed my wife for were all my decisions to make. Instead of deciding to stand up for what I believed was right, I gave in and gave up on myself. I lied and tried to manipulate my wife to achieve "better" conditions. I borrowed money and took out credit cards that I knew I couldn't pay for. And worst of all, I let my daughter down by not being the kind of solid, trustworthy, available father she deserves.

So with that really quick summary as a backdrop, here's what is going on right now.

About a month ago, my wife spent a week apart from me and our daughter to attended her bi-yearly graduate school residency. This was a turning point for her, she says, and while she was there, she decided that she could no longer stay married to me. Up until last week, I was still trying really hard to keep the relationship functioning at some level. But she insisted that *I* start drawing up agreements for custody arrangements, and her demand was for me to hand over full physical custody while giving me the right to visitation any time I wanted it. The argument was that somehow my family of origin would try and harm our daughter, emotionally, physically, any way they could. So the only way my wife could protect our daughter was to keep her by her side 24/7.

Through the incredible support here, and some really good professional intervention, I stopped myself from doing one of the most profoundly stupid things of my entire life. I told my wife it would never happen. I told her that I'd agree to nothing less than 50/50 physical custody, and furthermore, I'm not really the one who wishes to proceed with divorce. So, I said, I'm not going to initiate any process. She said that she doesn't think I'll get what I think I'll get, and that if I won't cooperate, she'll do what she needs to do. She said it just like that.

She decided it was time for us to sleep in separate bedrooms and I should move my stuff downstairs. I didn't argue. I just did it.

This was a week ago.

Righter after this discussion, I left for a 2 day trip to another state on business. While I was gone, we texted for approximately 5 minutes. I reiterated my 50/50 position, and told her I'd be willing to let her know when my parents visited so she could be informed. Her very surprising response was "that's something I can work with, thank you. we still need to discuss the details, though."

The next day was almost complete silence from her.

The day after that was Valentines Day. I was flying home in the morning and had planned on having dinner with her. When I woke up, I found that she had deleted me and blocked me from all her social media feeds (something she's never done, even when we were "broken up" the first time). I emailed her and asked, "why did you do that?" She didn't reply. When I landed, I got a text from her that said "Happy Valentines Day!" with a picture of my daughter, followed by "I won't be able to join you for dinner."

Soo... .yeah... .something is brewing. I have a lawyer, but right now all I have done is keep her on standby. I really don't know what's going to happen next. I'm pretty anxious. I really miss the companionship, but on the other hand, the relative silent treatment is SO much better than the constant fighting we've gone through, constantly, for almost 9 years now. Ever since this second phase started, it seems, we haven't been able to figure things out.

Is this the start to some new third phase where we can come back together and finally work it out? That seems unlikely, but it would be nice if we could. It would have to mean a lot of acknowledgement on her part and change for both of us. I feel like I've admitted I have a huge role in what's went wrong, but I still feel like she's seeing herself as fully a victim here. Would that kind of self introspection even be possible?

Or, am I about to get served with divorce papers? I'm determined to not get caught off guard here, so I have to look at this as a real strong possibility. Over the years, she's managed to siphon away a pretty large chunk of cash from our account. I, on the other hand, have drained every cent I had - retirement, 401k, credit cards maxed, credit rating is below 500 - so my only resources are my income and possibly borrowing from my parents, but I really need to avoid this.

It's a long long post, I apologize, but it's a really confusing time for me. Maybe you all can see something I don't, or maybe just tell me I'm not crazy and this is confusing. Thanks for reading this far. You guys are all great and I really appreciate the support you've given me and each other. I feel like there's a new energy on the boards and I hope I can help you guys as much as you've helped me.

~DB

[DaddyBear77]

Hey everyone,

It's been a long time since I posted here on this board. I posted a lot on the Improving board, but things have changed, and so I wanted to come over here and share an update on how things have been going.

For anyone who is new or just wants to catch up, I've been in a relationship with my uBPDw for 18 years now. We've been married for 15 years. The "first phase" of our marriage was from 2002 until 2006. We took a 2 year "break" in the middle of the marriage where we lived on opposite sides of the country. The second phase of our marriage started in 2008. After trying for 3 years, we had our first and only daughter in 2013.

Most of my posting here focuses on the stuff that's happened in the "second phase." For starters, it was only after starting the second phase that I finally discovered BPD. Also, I really gave up the last bits of my self esteem and my personal boundaries to try and create a "second try." I ended up cutting off my entire family or origin, went into extreme debt buying all sorts of jewels and vacations and other tokens, all in an attempt to satisfy demands my wife made.

I've come to realize these things that I blamed my wife for were all my decisions to make. Instead of deciding to stand up for what I believed was right, I gave in and gave up on myself. I lied and tried to manipulate my wife to achieve "better" conditions. I borrowed money and took out credit cards that I knew I couldn't pay for. And worst of all, I let my daughter down by not being the kind of solid, trustworthy, available father she deserves.

So with that really quick summary as a backdrop, here's what is going on right now.

About a month ago, my wife spent a week apart from me and our daughter to attended her bi-yearly graduate school residency. This was a turning point for her, she says, and while she was there, she decided that she could no longer stay married to me. Up until last week, I was still trying really hard to keep the relationship functioning at some level. But she insisted that *I* start drawing up agreements for custody arrangements, and her demand was for me to hand over full physical custody while giving me the right to visitation any time I wanted it. The argument was that somehow my family of origin would try and harm our daughter, emotionally, physically, any way they could. So the only way my wife could protect our daughter was to keep her by her side 24/7.

Through the incredible support here, and some really good professional intervention, I stopped myself from doing one of the most profoundly stupid things of my entire life. I told my wife it would never happen. I told her that I'd agree to nothing less than 50/50 physical custody, and furthermore, I'm not really the one who wishes to proceed with divorce. So, I said, I'm not going to initiate any process. She said that she doesn't think I'll get what I think I'll get, and that if I won't cooperate, she'll do what she needs to do. She said it just like that.

She decided it was time for us to sleep in separate bedrooms and I should move my stuff downstairs. I didn't argue. I just did it.

This was a week ago.

Righter after this discussion, I left for a 2 day trip to another state on business. While I was gone, we texted for approximately 5 minutes. I reiterated my 50/50 position, and told her I'd be willing to let her know when my parents visited so she could be informed. Her very surprising response was "that's something I can work with, thank you. we still need to discuss the details, though."

The next day was almost complete silence from her.

The day after that was Valentines Day. I was flying home in the morning and had planned on having dinner with her. When I woke up, I found that she had deleted me and blocked me from all her social media feeds (something she's never done, even when we were "broken up" the first time). I emailed her and asked, "why did you do that?" She didn't reply. When I landed, I got a text from her that said "Happy Valentines Day!" with a picture of my daughter, followed by "I won't be able to join you for dinner."

Soo... .yeah... .something is brewing. I have a lawyer, but right now all I have done is keep her on standby. I really don't know what's going to happen next. I'm pretty anxious. I really miss the companionship, but on the other hand, the relative silent treatment is SO much better than the constant fighting we've gone through, constantly, for almost 9 years now. Ever since this second phase started, it seems, we haven't been able to figure things out.

Is this the start to some new third phase where we can come back together and finally work it out? That seems unlikely, but it would be nice if we could. It would have to mean a lot of acknowledgement on her part and change for both of us. I feel like I've admitted I have a huge role in what's went wrong, but I still feel like she's seeing herself as fully a victim here. Would that kind of self introspection even be possible?

Or, am I about to get served with divorce papers? I'm determined to not get caught off guard here, so I have to look at this as a real strong possibility. Over the years, she's managed to siphon away a pretty large chunk of cash from our account. I, on the other hand, have drained every cent I had - retirement, 401k, credit cards maxed, credit rating is below 500 - so my only resources are my income and possibly borrowing from my parents, but I really need to avoid this.

It's a long long post, I apologize, but it's a really confusing time for me. Maybe you all can see something I don't, or maybe just tell me I'm not crazy and this is confusing. Thanks for reading this far. You guys are all great and I really appreciate the support you've given me and each other. I feel like there's a new energy on the boards and I hope I can help you guys as much as you've helped me.

~DB

[AskingWhy]

I am so sorry to hear this, DaddyBear.

Finally glimpsing the futility of life with a BPD spouse is heartbreaking.  It's worse when there are children involved.

The pain (for me, at least) is a quiet sort of private pain.  One feels like a fool to have kept up the charade for so long. 

The silent treatment might seem simple, but it actually affects us on the cerebral level in the cingulate cortex of the brain.

https://exploringyourmind.com/silent-treatment-psychological-abuse-disguise/

All I can advise is to wait and see what happens.  As you know, pwBPD are people of extremes.  The social media blocks might be her way of making her unhappiness with you as painful as possible.  No one can really predict the future.

In the meantime, look out for yourself and protect yourself and your children.  I wish you the best.

[AskingWhy]

I thought I'd add this link:

https://exploringyourmind.com/identify-psychological-abuse/

[Notwendy]

Hi DB,
I am impressed that you stood up for what you valued- your 50/50 time with your D, and to put the divorce in her hands.

I do not know your future with her , but I have experienced the escalation of behaviors/threats when we change the patterns in the relationship. These escalations can lead to behaviors such as even going so far as to initiate a divorce- but an aspect of your situation is that she came to you with this idea after her graduate school week, not after something you said or did.

She went away for a week and then came back wanting a divorce. What went on at this time? I am not insinuating another man,  but there is a lot of positive reinforcement, intellectual stimulation, social interaction and a sense of freedom from responsibilities during these types of business/grad school weeks. This is different from the day to day 24/7 responsibilities of family and dealing with an intimate relationship. An emotionally mature person knows the difference. Someone with BPD may just feel happy and not connect why. Also, I have been on business trips and some people do act differently than when they are at home, maybe more flirtatious- not that anything even happened but it may have felt flattering to be flirted with. In a nutshell, the trip could have been an ego boost.

Or it was a time for her to think and she realized that she really wants a divorce. Maybe she does. We can't know what any one is thinking,  but - what you did- leave the work of arranging a divorce in her hands- was (IMHO) an important step in letting her be responsible for her wishes and actions.

I am pleased to see that you have taken responsibility for the over spending and getting in debt. As you know my story- my father did this too and it created a lot of stress in our family. On the other board - I wrote a post recently where I found some notes I wrote as a young teen about Dad being angry at all the bills and yelling at us kids.   I am glad to see that you are taking steps to avoid the stress of debt in your family and having financial boundaries.

Will your marriage survive your boundaries? I don't know. People are free to make their own choices-both of you. If you choose to have boundaries, your wife then has the choice- to accept them in her marriage or not be married to you. When we establish boundaries, we take that risk. It isn't a choice we can control. For me, we make it when we feel we are between two difficult choices- to continue to be an enabler and give up things that are important to us or to stop being an enabler. We enable as a way of managing our own fears that the other person will be upset or angry with us and then not like us or leave us. This may bring a sense of comfort to us. We choose to stop enabling when the personal cost of enabling is higher than the benefit of it.

What the other person chooses to do about that is out of our hands.

[Red5]

DaddyBear77, very sorry to hear all of this, as I only have a moment hear, and off a cell phone, just wanted you to know we are all here and to echo what other two ladies have said. Hold your set boundaries - hold on to your belief system and moral code- we certainly cannot direct others intents or thoughts / desires / hearts.

But have a contengecy plan. As others have said do not enable or let yourself be railroaded trying to keep the peace.

Most important take good care of yourself and your daughter, and believe your wife in what she is saying to you, this is serous buisiness this divorce diatribe... .

We are here, sorry so short but IM on the run road myself this morning Red5

[BeagleGirl]

Maybe you all can see something I don't, or maybe just tell me I'm not crazy and this is confusing.

Daddybear,

I want to echo much of what has been said.  I'm sorry you are going through this.  I know that your deepest desire has been to make this work so that you can provide a family for your daughter.  I also know that you love your wife. 

So first of all... .You're not crazy.  This is incredibly confusing, and it probably always will be. 

Secondly, GOOD JOB on holding your ground on custody discussions.  I think we share a similar tendency to pay too high a price for peace, hoping our pwBPD will see that we aren't the horrible persecutors they seem to believe us to be and will suddenly appreciate what we are giving up for them and will love us back.  I would go so far as to give you "permission" to continue doing this in other areas if it helps you reserve your strength for fighting the good fight on this battlefront.  As a daughter, I can tell you that the influence of a father is far greater than you can imagine.  Some day I hope that your daughter will rest in the knowledge that ":)addy did everything he could to stay in my life and make it better". 

As for seeing things that you don't; I tend to agree with Notwendy.  It's possible that things happened during that week away that provided an image for DBw of what life without you could look like.  Whether that be attention from other men that provided a message that she could "do better than DB" or a conversation with someone that helped her solidify a story that allows her to feel okay with not trying anymore, there's a strong possibility that something external brought her to a place where her new treatment of you makes sense to her.  Threat of divorce and deleting and blocking on social media could be part of the push/pull process (I'm so angry I want him out of my life/Maybe the threat of losing me will make him start to treat me the way I want to be treated) or it could be a way to make room for the new life she caught sight of during her week away.

One word of advice.  You shouldn't count on this shift being permanent and should take this opportunity to decide what you want.  While I hear a higher degree of willingness to let this marriage end in your post, I also still hear a pretty high level of desire to work this out and come back together, if certain criteria are met.  It would be great if she would consistently tell you which she wants and take responsibility for moving things in that direction, but my experience is that this is HIGHLY unlikely.  And I don't think that would be the best for you, even if it were possible.  It would leave you feeling passive and potentially victimized, neither of which is a healthy state for you.

It took me a long time (not that I'm done with the process) to come to a decision that, while I wanted to stay married to dBPDstbxh, I was not willing to take responsibility for fixing my marriage.  I decided that the very act of taking responsibility for fixing my marriage would make it a marriage I did not want, because that would mean that it had not fundamentally changed from what I had before.  dBPDstbxh probably could describe me as "incredibly confusing" over the past year, because I have been imperfect at holding to that decision consistently, especially in the first 6 months.  I kept falling back into behaviors that looked a lot like taking responsibility for fixing the marriage.  I picture those times as me trying to hand the "marriage fixing tools" to dBPDstbxh.  He'd drop them.  We'd both stare at them for a while, then I'd pick them up and start showing him how to use them, only to realize what I was doing (or have a friend or counselor tell me what I was doing) and drop them again.  Then we'd both stare at them again.  Eventually I stopped picking them up and shifted to repeatedly asking dBPDstbxh if he saw them.  Eventually I stopped doing that.  I don't know how long we would have stood there staring at them.  I was getting to the end of my willingness to stand there.  Then dBPDstbxh decided to turn away.  And I'm not stopping him.  I am trying to prepare my heart for a day when he turns back around and tries to hand me the tools and begs me to fix the marriage.  I'm trying to prepare my heart for a day when he picks up the tools and starts working on the marriage without guidance for me and asks me to join him.  Mostly, I'm preparing my heart to say goodbye to the marriage.  So I totally understand how confusing it can be to feel like you are moving in multiple directions all at once. 

You may decide that you want to focus your effort on patching holes that will keep your marriage afloat, no matter how diligently BPDw pokes new holes and rips patches off.  In that case, you will be asking "How big a hole can I patch.  What tools do I need to have on hand to continue to patch these holes?  How will I recognize the hole that I'm not willing to patch?" 

I would encourage you to spend some time deciding that you won't be pushed/pulled in any given direction and defining the criteria for what will make you willing to take steps in any given direction.  It sounds like you're starting to do that, but it also sounds like this is a crossroads for you and the BPD bulldozer may be revving up it's engine to push you somewhere you may not want to go.

Sorry for the mixed metaphors/analogies.

I'm sending you prayers for peace and assurance today.  And an extra prayer for some joy.

P.S. I'm also in a place of scratching my head saying "Where did this willingness/eagerness to divorce come from?"  I have a suspicion that he's found someone else and I have a suspicion of who that someone else is.  I'm trying really hard to shift my thoughts away from that as I prepare for church today because my suspected "she" attends the church and it's been hard enough for me to worship without letting my mind roam in that direction.

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi DB,

You are not crazy. This behavior is confusing. BPD is confusing! it can also be quite frightening to "wait for the other shoe to drop", so to speak. Change is uncomfortable and scary at at times, and not being able to see down the tracks sometimes makes us feel like the train is heading right for us.

That being said, I totally agree with this:

But have a contingency plan. As others have said do not enable or let yourself be railroaded trying to keep the peace

You have a lawyer on "standby." Perhaps a conversation to discuss a strategy if you are served with divorce papers would help you feel prepared in case this does happen. In that way you will not feel so "caught off guard." A game plan is a good idea, even if you end up not needing it.

I commend you for being able to look back and see the decisions you made and own your actions instead of blaming. It takes maturity to do that. You also mentioned how you "gave in" to your wife and "gave up" on yourself. It seems as though she may have expected you to do that again with the custody of your child. I am so glad you did not do that! Stick to your guns on that one. You may or may not be in the marriage for the rest of your life, but you will always be a dad. Take whatever precautions necessary to preserve that. I wish I had.

My heart goes out to you, DB, and I wish you the very best. You have support here, keep posting and keep your head up.

Redeemed

[Cat Familiar]

Up until last week, I was still trying really hard to keep the relationship functioning at some level.

So sorry to hear what you're going through, DB. As it now stands, ball is in your wife's court. If she wants to proceed with a divorce, then it's on her. You've got an attorney ready, so you're prepared.

Take all that energy you've been using to keep the relationship afloat and focus on your daughter and your own survival needs--financially and emotionally. At this moment, there's no point in investing any more trying in the relationship, until you know exactly where you stand.

As others have pointed out, this may be a BPD-related flight of fancy after her excursion. Where she ends up, who knows? But she will notice that you've stepped out of the familiar pattern. And that will give you an edge you didn't have before.

   Cat

[GaGrl]

If your wife has been in her grad program for awhile, she obviously has had a plan for using that grad degree in some future way... .with or without you. This latest long-distance may have speeded up her plans and thoughts of (imagined) better future.

Do you know what her plans are for resuming a career after finishing this degree?

[formflier]

DB77,

   

Sorry for the relationship stress.  My first reaction is that this is her attempt to get you back in line, although unlikely she has "intellectually" thought this through.

We'll never know.

I would focus on being extra kind to her. 

Unless YOU actually want to be divorced, I would stop talking to her about it.

If you want a divorce, then file... stop negotiating.  A common theme seems to be pwBPD that harangue their  partners into doing "their dirty work" for them


FF

[DaddyBear77]

AskingWhy, Notwendy, Red5, BeagleGirl, I Am Redeemed, Cat Familiar, Gagrl, formflier - wow, thank you. You all made so much sense. This helps so much.

First of all, we went out to the diner together tonight. I don't know why I didn't notice this before, but it appears my wife has stopped wearing her wedding band and her brand new engagement ring. I don't know whether to be angry at the serious amount of money I just spent on those items to have them become another item that sits in a drawer, or to be hurt that she's announcing to the world she's single, or maybe a little of both. It certainly didn't feel great to see it, but I can't say I'm surprised.

some people do act differently than when they are at home, maybe more flirtatious- not that anything even happened but it may have felt flattering to be flirted with. In a nutshell, the trip could have been an ego boost.

Notwendy I think you're spot on with this. I know part of a story of what happened, and it had to do with a married man who was also dating a different married woman (not his wife). MY wife got into the middle of this somehow. The way she tells the story, the married man flirted with her, but she rejected him. Regardless of whether or not this is true, the ego boost combined with the vision of a new, "single" life was probably an irresistible allure for her.

In any case, I need to stop obsessing over this part of the story. I'm blocked from seeing what's going on, and it's her choice. I could spend all my time trying to figure it out, searching for clues, maybe even snooping and crossing a line that I'd really regret (I refuse to do that, by the way) - but it is what it is. I can't stop it, and I don't think I would want to.

Which leads me to... .

I picture those times as me trying to hand the "marriage fixing tools" to dBPDstbxh.

I love this analogy, BeagleGirl - thank you. BTW, I'm so sorry you're having to face the possibility of dBPDstbxh finding someone else and having to face her every week. When I was in the separation period with my wife, the part that caused the most pain was thinking about the new boyfriend.

The thing about "fixing" the marriage is really relevant to my situation. The thing is, I don't think I've ever really had a chance to hand any tools to my wife. I came here and learned some really good ones, for myself. These same tools would have probably saved things if she had been willing to listen. She has been SO stuck in being the victim the past 3 or 4 years especially, I don't think she heard a thing I said.


I can feel some anxiety and fear building up, and at the same time I feel like I have a LOT of prep work I need to be doing. Historically, this has been a very bad combination for me. The fear and anxiety build up so much that I freeze. I'm not going to let that happen this time, though. I'm getting at least a few hours every night to relax, breathe, and mentally prepare myself. This week I will take some specific actions - I want to write down a draft of a parenting plan, and I also want to get some financial documentation pulled together. I also want to journal everything that happens from now on, too.

formflier, to your point (and others), I haven't talked about divorce with her AT ALL in the past week. I haven't decided to file, but I honestly don't know WHY I haven't decided. But I haven't. So I won't bring it up.

Anyway, I'm up way too late again. Thanks again everyone. You are all really amazing. I'm so glad to be here with all of you.

[Notwendy]

I think the reason you have not filed is that you aren't convinced that filing is what you want to do. I agree with FF and others that have said- if she wants to file, then don't do her work for you. Filing may also be perceived as you being persecutor. Not that you shouldn't file if you want to because of that if you were committed to that path, but I don't read that you are.

That said, I do think it is important to take steps to protect your interests in the case that she does file or things get to the point that you want to file. I think it is wise to take inventory of finances, compose a custody plan and have a set plan of actions determined with your lawyer. The legal board here may be helpful to you for legal questions- but it is good that you have a lawyer.

I also think you can allow yourself to have feelings about her not wearing the ring.

[formflier]

I also think you can allow yourself to have feelings about her not wearing the ring.

. 

I'm a bit conflicted on whether or not you should ask her about the rings.  I'm leaning towards not asking.
At the same time... .the wedding ring is a big symbol... .and it "feels" weird to me to ignore it (when usually I would suggest "not engaging" on an issue).

IF you bring it up... make sure you are centered and she appears to be.

Ask it in an open kinda way...

"I've noticed you are not wearing your wedding ring(s).   The new engagement ring meant a lot to me.  Help me understand your decision not to wear them."

Something like that.  No suggestion whatsoever about her feelings

Full disclosure:  I'm dealing with this in my r/s.  My wife says the rings need to be resized since she has gained some weight.  I've set up  a couple of times for us to go together to a jeweler and "other things have gotten in the way".  50/50 if they were "legit".

Ultimately, I'm not going to argue about it.  Monetarily the rings are insured.  There is no way to figure out if this is legit or some sort of "symbology test" that I'm supposed to "get".

I'll end with this advice.  "Winding the clock... " is always a good idea.  Perhaps observe and think until end of the week and then figure out if you are going to ask.

How long has she not been wearing it?

FF


 

[Enabler]

Howdy DB,

Your story sounds very familiar to mine although my W removed her rings back in Jul17. It was a horrible hopeless moment the day I saw her naked wedding ring finger and very emotional. It was tough at the time, and still is, to determine what the meaning of this was. Legal proceedings did not begin until Oct17 and she has not petitioned for divorce yet. My take on the ring removal was that she was trying to feel herself divorced. She actually backdates her feeling of being married to the beginning of 2016. She was/is having an affair (don't know if it is physical or not). By removing the ring I think she felt that it was okay to be courting someone else irrespective of what the religious guidance she sought was. It helped soothe her guilt and shame.

Do not expect her resolve to get the divorce she wants to be consistent. It may drag on for a long period of time unless you assist with the process... .which she may well want you to because she can guilt shift the responsibility of the marriage ending to you. As others have stated, decide what you want, and stick by that. Do everything that points to that. If you decide that you want to stay in the relationship write a mental list of things she must do and things you will not do. e.g.

I will not file/petition for divorce
I will contact a lawyer, discuss the process and ensure that I can protect my best interests with the empowerment of knowledge.
I will prepare my own documentation as required by the divorce process as requested by the process my W will initiate.
I will not concede on divorce points that are not in my best interests, I will negotiate as if my W was a commercial acquaintance, not someone I have spent 18 years of my life with. My needs are as important as my wife in this legal process. The is not about love.
I will not yield to emotional or verbal manipulation in pursuit of the above resolutions
I will act with integrity throughout the process
I will not entertain cake and eat it solutions.


So sorry your journey has come to this, it's not over yet though.

Time to read 'The Man in the arena'... .daily.  

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

[toomanydogs]

DB,
  I'm so sorry you're going through this. I've been on this forum since June or July, and I've read your posts. I know you wanted to keep the marriage intact.
  I echo just about about everything that people have written here: Definitely, determine what you. This is no longer about your wife; it's about what you need in order to work through the fear and anxiety (been there. totally understand freezing.) and being present for your daughter. Terrific on refusing anything less than 50/50 custody.
  The observation being made here about pwBPD not wanting to do the dirty work, I also echo. Before my STBX filed, he'd tell me repeatedly, "I want a divorce." And I always always always answered (paraphrasing here), "Then do something about it."
  And now... .He filed Aug 31, and his side has asked my lawyer and me to make the first offer.
  I also think it's quite possible that your wife will change her mind several times before she files for divorce, if she indeed does file. That's why I'd suggest focusing totally on what you want and what you have control to get. I mentioning the part about 'control to get,' so that you avoid focusing on wanting the relationship because having the relationship may not be a possibility. If she really wants to be divorced and she can maintain focus long enough to make that happen, there isn't much you can do except focus on yourself and your daughter.
  I am so sorry you're going through this. I know from experience how painful a divorce is, and I don't have kids with my STBX. Adding a daughter into the mix... .I can't imagine.
  I will keep you in my thoughts and check the boards to see how you're doing.
TMD   

[BeagleGirl]

It appears my wife has stopped wearing her wedding band and her brand new engagement ring. I don't know whether to be angry at the serious amount of money I just spent on those items to have them become another item that sits in a drawer, or to be hurt that she's announcing to the world she's single, or maybe a little of both. It certainly didn't feel great to see it, but I can't say I'm surprised.

I'm going to give you a bit of insight into how I view the wedding ring thing on the off chance that DBw may have motives other than the ones you might think of.  Ultimately, DBw is the only one who knows why she is not wearing them and I echo FF in being a bit conflicted on whether to advise ignoring the absence of the rings or initiating a fact finding conversation.  What I do suggest (though I wonder if it's humanly possible) is to not react to what you assume her motives are. 

So here is what BG did with her ring and why.  I'll preface by saying that I'm not proud of my actions in this area, but I still struggle with the urge to justify them.  We'll see how well I do with explaining and not justifying.

My current wedding ring was purchased in the weeks after I revealed my affair to dBPDstbxh.  He took me to the jeweler and we spent quite a bit of time selecting the perfect setting and stone.  It's a beautiful ring that fits me in every way.  It's also a very expensive ring.  We had the money and I chose to spend it on the ring, but I know I was hugely influenced by the desire to make feel more secure in my recommittment to our marriage and his ability to "give me nice things".  That latter part is a bit ironic because he was not only not contributing financially to our family, he has maintained a pattern of financial irresponsibility that has left me in the "bail out" position over and over.  In a way, this ring became another representation of that pattern in my mind.  He didn't work hard and earn/save the money to purchase it.  It didn't "cost" him anything and I was the one figuring out if we could afford it.  (As I type this, I struggle with the thought that he "earned" the right to buy me the ring by forgiving my infidelity and agreeing to rebuild our marriage, but that's something to deal with in a different post.)

So in the three years after the purchase of the ring it took on meanings that should never be attached to a wedding ring.  These were meanings that I attached to the ring, justified or not.

-Symbol of financially irresponsibility
-Symbol of his willingness to let me do the hard work and enjoy the benefits of it
-Symbol of the years when he would spend thousands of dollars on a whim on stuff he wanted with no thought of buying something nice for me.
-Symbol of my betrayal of him and what I felt I owed him (sad that I twisted this in my mind, when it should have been a symbol of a new start)
-Symbol of his "ownership" of me
-Symbol of what our marriage should have been, but wasn't (I kept flashing back to the times he was trapping me and I felt afraid of him)

I got to a place where I felt a feeling of revulsion when I would glance down at my finger and see the ring.  So a chose to stop wearing it.  This was during our separation.  I knew on some level that not wearing it could be interpreted as me communicating that I was not married.  I can honestly say that wasn't my intention.  I just wanted to stop being constantly reminded of the brokenness of my marriage.  I sometimes wore a different ring (especially if there was a chance that I might run into my former affair partner), but he hadn't bought that ring for me and it wasn't my wedding ring, so it didn't feel any more comfortable.

dBPDstbxh confronted me a couple times on how it made him feel that I wasn't wearing the ring.  I tried to explain (JADE) that I wasn't trying to advertise availability and stubbornly refused to wear it.  It took a few months before I felt conviction that I was wrong to do something that I knew hurt him and made him (understandably) fear another betrayal of my vows.  I also felt strongly that I owed him an apology, so I met with him and apologized and promised that I would wear the ring as long as we remained married. 

I'm sad to say that I haven't kept that promise faithfully.  There have been days when I have chosen my comfort and anger over my promise, but I've always put it on when I knew dBPDstbxh might see (hypocrite that I can be).  I can tell you that it's easier for me to wear the ring now that I have a count-down on the days I have left to wear it.  I can also tell you that I've looked into selling it and know that I would use the money to go on a trip with my two best girlfriends. 

I guess my point in writing all of this is to help you see the level of meaning a non can assign to a ring and the act of wearing or not wearing it.  Trust me, this is just a summary.  I could go on for days and days.    So I would steer you away from assuming you understand why DBw isn't wearing her rings.  If you want to know, ask.  If you're not wanting/ready/able to hear what she responds, don't ask.

BG

[formflier]

So... I'll tell my story.  I was the one that didn't wear it for a while.

And... this was early in the marriage... way before BPDish stuff showed up.

Initially I wore it all the time.  Naval regulations say you aren't supposed to wear any rings while flying and in many situations around the ship, for safety reasons.  :)uring "safety stand-downs" there were many grisly videos of dudes without fingers because a ring was important to them.

Well... I was bullet proof... .so I wore it.  Then one day during some horseplay I was sliding my hand down a railing, my ring caught and it cut my finger.  Honestly, it wasn't a bad cut... .but it got me to thinking.


So... .I stopped wearing it, unless I was dressing up.  I kept it safe with my class ring, nice watch and other keepsakes.  If I was going to be in my dress uniform or dress up in civilian, I would put on my wedding ring, class ring and my watch and off I would go.

Had zero to do with my marriage... completely practical.

Bads on me:  

(I regularly allege I was a cool naval aviator... .I don't allege I was smart, especially about relationships)  It never crossed my mind that I should mention any of this to my wife.  By nature, she is not detail oriented and didn't notice for a long time.

She was very tentative when she did notice, seemed accepting of the explanation but then got scared when I also mentioned I had been doing this for a long time (and she connected dots that she didn't notice).

The part about her not noticing bothered her more than all the rest.

Over time she would bring it up here and there, my memory says this went on for years.  I knew several guys who would put the ring on their dog tags necklace instead of finger.  Many of those guys lost the wedding ring and had to get another.  I wanted nothing to do with that risk.

The ring from the ceremony really mattered to me.  The idea of "upgrading" to nicer rings has come up a time or two.  I want nothing to do with that.

Anyway, in likely what was a precursor or "hint" of BPDish stuff it came to a head.  She accused me of not knowing where my ring was and not caring.  It kinda came out of nowhere.  So... I invalidated her (didn't know at the time) by walking to the place, getting the ring and putting it on... in less that 30 seconds.  

She had said some other things that were over the top and I kinda "fought back" against it.  I told her I was tired of the entire discussion and the ring would stay on my finger.  Furthermore... .should my finger ever become detached due to the ring, she would be expected to do a daily sex act on me for the rest of my life while I cared for my stub.

Ladies... .right now... I know you all want in my harem... .yes it's still full.  I know... I know... .the tenderness with which I approach things in mind boggling... .

Well... she started to demand I remove it, which I wouldn't... .and that went on for a while.

All of this was years before BPD officially showed up.  Long winded FF story to say that me taking it off had nothing to do with my feelings for her and both of us got a bit too wrapped up in the symbolism, when we would have been better focused on the actual relationship.

So... .give it a couple days to get yourself ready.  Be neutral and open and ask her about her ring.  You own your feelings... no accusations.  Should she want to blame you... .don't engage.  

So... yeah... .I'm officially changing my position to you need to ask, but don't fight about it... no circular arguments.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Put me in the "don't ask" camp about the ring. But that's my style. I get very strategic when I've been in a situation such as yours and I'm very aware of the power plays and I don't want to be seen as vulnerable.

Right now, she's in control. She's announced a change of game plan with comments on divorce and removal of rings. Either this is according to plan or she's trying to elicit some behavior from you--maybe begging her to reconsider? offering some concession? (I haven't closely followed your story, so I'm clueless here. But you have mentioned how she has manipulated you to cut off your family and go into debt buying her baubles.)

It's easy to play Monday morning quarterback from a detached cyber-view, but she's threatening your marriage and family structure. If it were me, I'd say to myself, "OK, you claim you don't want this, then I'm going to emotionally detach and still remain very polite and kind, but I'm going to give you a taste of what you're going to be missing if you follow through on your threats." (But again, I'm a thinker, rather than a feeler, so this is an easier strategy for me than it is for someone who is very emotionally expressive.)

The thing that bothers me about your situation is that she has got you on "Hold" in that she's determining how this marriage plays out without currently moving forward or fully disclosing what's on her mind.

[Notwendy]

The thing that bothers me about your situation is that she has got you on "Hold" in that she's determining how this marriage plays out without currently moving forward or fully disclosing what's on her mind.

True, but I also think DB is uncertain at this time about what he wants to do. I think it is better to not follow the lead of a disordered person, whose emotions can change quickly, but to do this, one needs to be certain about the direction they want to take.

We can't make anyone stay married to us, but filing, unless we feel it is the best decision to do at the time is also doing their dirty work for them.

On the other hand, and this is just my observation, a person with BPD tends to take victim perspective with boundaries and/or a decision such as a divorce.  If any decisions are made, I think the perspective of believing this is the right thing to do- regardless of who will be blamed for it- would help rather than base it on the pwBPD's feelings about it.

There was a time during a difficult time in my marriage where a woman at my husband's workplace had an obvious crush on him. I worried about this, felt a lot of jealousy and insecurity. I don't know if anything happened between them- I have no proof that anything did, but I do think the ego boost diminished his incentive to invest in our relationship. I also noticed that his public persona was nicer to people than he was to me. I had some fear that if they were together, she would get the good part of him that I so wanted back in my marriage.

After reading about relationships, attraction, and the idea that if you leave your dysfunctional marriage for another relationship without doing the personal work to change, you are likely to repeat the dysfunctional pattern. I was able to see that the grass would not be greener in another relationship at the time, for either of us at the moment, and not him if he did choose her. I felt less threatened by the situation. If that was his choice, then it was his choice, but also it would be likely he would end up in the same pattern. Eventually this person moved to another town, but by that time, I didn't feel threatened by her attention to my H. If he wanted that, I could not have stopped it anyway.

If your wife feels flattered by another man, I'd be willing to bet they would end up in a similar pattern, since she is part of that. It might help to not think that it would be better than with you.

I still wonder if your wife will go through with this or not, DB. My mother threatened divorce many times. It didn't happen. I can't tell what your wife will do. You can't control whether she files or not, only if you choose to do it.

[Enabler]

If you can call it a risk (assuming you don't want a divorce)... .the risk is that she seeks and gets support from well meaning "healthy" rescuers (if there is such a thing) in your community who whip and drive the divorce process in the belief this is what she wants and needs. Ultimately that is her choice and out of your control but a risk that can be similarly traumatic as the threats themselves. The divorce boat is carried towards the waterfall not through conscious decision making (which is tough for a pwBPD) but through the current of do gooders seeing a damsel in distress.

[Notwendy]

Enabler makes a good point, but it is also the natural consequences of the behavior. My mother tends to trust and take advice from remote strangers rather than her family. If my kids are looking at a college, my mother will ask around to see if it is a "good" one rather than trust my child and us to choose one that is best for the child. "My hairdressers sister says its a good school" or a bad school in that case she won't be happy if we chose it. What makes the hairdressers sister the expert to ask?

When my father was ill, the discussion of assisted living places came up. I looked into them and even visited some of them and my suggestions were rejected. But the neighbor's mother in law liked one so that had to be the one rather than trust that I would not choose a place I didn't feel comfortable with my own parents in.

My mother is able to find other well meaning "rescuers". Sadly, some of her caregivers have taken advantage of her willingness to trust a complete stranger -she either paints people black or white. We- her kids- are troubled by this, but we also have no control over her choices. She is an adult in the legal sense and since she tends to be triggered by our suggestions, we just have to accept the situation. I even called social services about my parents and what they said was " your parents are legally competent to make their own bad decisions". They were not legally incompetent nor was anything they did illegal- they could make their own choices.

DB- your wife is legally competent to make her own decisions, good or bad. The person who needs protection is the legal minor- your daughter. Someone has to look after her best interests and that is you- along with looking after your own best interests.

[formflier]

If you can call it a risk (assuming you don't want a divorce)... .the risk is that she seeks and gets support from well meaning "healthy" rescuers (if there is such a thing) in your community who whip and drive the divorce process in the belief this is what she wants and needs. Ultimately that is her choice and out of your control but a risk that can be similarly traumatic as the threats themselves. The divorce boat is carried towards the waterfall not through conscious decision making (which is tough for a pwBPD) but through the current of do gooders seeing a damsel in distress.

Can you give examples of this?

Can you further break it up into examples that you "are sure about"

and

Examples that you have made some assumptions about and it "fits the mold".

Generally, it's best not to engage with these third parties or "advocates" for your wife.  Like most rules... .they are not 100%.  You need to think through each situation.

FF

[Red5]

I have been listening to a person named Kris Godinez on her YouTube channel, she talks about such outsiders or else potential “would be rescuers”; to the disordered relationship, who really haven’t a clue as to what is going on, and want to “help” and usually more time than not causing more confusion and mayhem to the situation, Kris uses the term “flying monkeys” to refer to these outside SNM experts... .this is a lose reference of course to the old movie “The Wizard of Oz” .

Keep posting Enabler we are all listening,

Red5

[toomanydogs]

The divorce boat is carried towards the waterfall not through conscious decision making (which is tough for a pwBPD) but through the current of do gooders seeing a damsel in distress.

Honestly, I see this as the reason my H filed. If he hadn't had the support from his P, who attends every single lawyer's meeting with him, I don't think he would have filed.
Additionally, I was one of those "healthy" rescuers when I first met him. (What I've learned from my marriage: DO NOT RESCUE!) I believed what he said and tried to help him get away from his "toxic" family. About a year into the relationship when I met all those "toxic" people, I realized just how much my H had lied to me.
TMD

[JoeBPD81]

Hi, DB

You've been super kind to me while you were experiencing this turmoil of emotions and fear. That speaks volumes about you.

I think after years of our "virtues" not causing any effect on our pwBPD, we start to believe we might have no virtues, or they are not as important, or who knows? The point is that we doubt ourselves. You ARE a good person, and you have a value that doesn't depend on this RS, or its outcome.

I hate that despite our efforts they seem to be drifting away, to a point that they are so far, that they can't even see us anymore. Do you think you have been replaced in her mind by a version of who she believes you are? (that's my impression)

You love her. And you don't want to continue the fight. As time went by, she kept putting things in the wrong side of the scale. So everyday, what she would need to do to be the person you loved, and be at peace with you, seems less likely. She needs a reset button, an epiphany, a 180º turn. We hold on to the hope that they will do it, while we see them getting further and further away from that posibility. We also see the person we love hurting herself with every decission.

I bet that if you could picture your w happy after the divorce, working alongside you in a co-parenting plan with the interest of your daughter at heart. You would go for it. Painful as it would be.

The only sure thing is the confusion. We love someone that is constantly changing, is insecure, and ilogical. So we fear that if we act based on what she does today, tomorrow it will be the complete wrong thing to do.

Accountability seems to be a crucial step, but I can tell you it might not change things at all. My GF is diagnosed, and she embraces the D completely. She adknowledges she behaves horribly with me and that I don't deserve it. But she also says that during the anger, she doesn't care at all about my feelings. And that the guilt that she feels after, when she can think clearly, urges her to go back to the safe place of "not caring". In that cycle of guilt-shame-indifference-rage, it's very hard to introduce love. Just seeing me reminds her that she should care, and treat me like a human being, so I'm annoying as F... .(Imagine a friend that everytime you see him tells you "hey, you are a bad person, you have to change".

About the ring, when I was married I rarely put it on. I used to do more massage, and taking it on and off was a risk of losing it, so I wore it Frodo style. One night she lost hers in the snow. And to me it was a bit hurtful that she never cared to have a new one. But it wasn't in my mind often. She didn't care at all.

In your case, I think you have enough on your plate to be worrying about why she took it off. Symbols are as powerful as we want them to be.

It's not an easy task, in the middle of this confusion, to find out what YOU want. It seems easy to say "what's best for the kid". Yeah, but what's that?

I can only advise you that you don't do something that is strongly against your values. You are gonna feel trapped or pushed to do things, but you have to live with yourself for the rest of your life.

I was the one who filed for divorce, after years of her complaining she wasn't completely happy, and her socializing a lot, and flirting (being together she confessed to fall in love, with another guy, a couple of times), we would spend our money in her wishes, she hated my family and her own... .Then when we started drifting appart, I got new female attention, and I was the one who cheated. I had a hundred excuses at the time, but it will never go away from me. I failed myself, and wherever I go, I have to live with that.

I don't say you are going to do that, but keep your eyes open to any action you feel strongly against. You already have avoided filing yourself for divorce when you are not the one asking for it. Great for you. You have been able to ask for 50/50 custody, more points for you.

From my experience, when I was in that state of confusion, thinking my marriage was over, and in a lot of pain. I don't think anything my wife had done would have influenced positively my state. If she was kind, I felt more guilt, if she was angry, I felt angrier, if she cried, I felt like a monster. I needed to navigate through my own crisis. I think your wife needs to do it too. It's not in your hands. You can ask her if she thinks you can do anything to get to (the goal you want). If not, you can feel OK focusing 100% in yourself and the girl.

If when she gets out of the crisis, you are not there anymore, well, that would be because you have find your way in a different path. And it would be a good thing. If you are still there, maybe it is a stronger you, with better boundaries and clearer goals. And it would be a good thing.


Most of all I would like you to feel that you matter, that you are not alone in that kind of confusion. That we know it sucks. And we also know you have done your best to bring happyness to your family. With that best, 99% of RSs work like a charm. You did your part. You do more than your part, even adknowledging the responsibility for your mistakes, you've done more than someone can expect from a partner. It's not your fault that the results are not there. It's not a great comfort, but I hope it's some.

     hang in there brother.

[Enabler]

Can you give examples of this?

Local Mums - See my W as a kind, fun loving person. Assistance offered - buyers for our home, validating the invalid ("you're doing the right thing", one even came up to me and said "there's no way your W spends too much on clothes" to which I said "How much does she spend on clothes?"... ."I dunno", advice on lawyers, comments such as "how's the divorce coming along, too much has happened, you have to make a clean break now" "this must be really tough on the kids" "he's a monster (based on what exactly?". One of the women I named Lefty Feminist would literally translate a perfectly legit text message I sent into something completely different... .she's a armchair T as well. There are many people who have their own marital problems and live out their fantasies through giving advice to other people. Many people who might have legitimate reasons they should leave their husbands, but don't because they're too scared... .so, when an opportunity arises which looks optically similar to theirs arises they advise people to do what they haven't got the balls to do. Also, other divorcees... .they want people to be in the same boat as them so encourage it... .makes them feel better about themselves.

Sister - has always pitied my W, it's her way of feeling one up on her. She looks to rescue as that makes her feel important in an otherwise pathetic existence of buying shoes and faffing around. She also believes shhe is a superior parent to myself and my W even though she has no children of her own or any actual parenting experience. She will push the agenda based on "well we just want what's best for the kiddies".

People who have an axe to grind against you - very dangerous as they will maliciously and proactively pour fuel on the fire

The other man/woman - there are 3 ways these people push things... .firstly they assist in dehumanising you, which in turn allows your wife to remove any guilt or shame she might have in carrying out her actions. Secondly, they push the agenda as they want your wife for themselves and want unrestricted access to her... .and they want to win. Thirdly and probably the most importantly they validate the invalid or things they have no idea about... .especially in translating your motivations and actions.

The Church - The church is the last stop for many people and unfortunately it is not well trained in personality disorders. The Church for all it's doctrine is unfortunately a group of people and these people when confronted with a hurt emotional woman are very supportive of their views... .they offer help and validation,  again validating the invalid. e.g. "my husband is abusing me!" ... .is rarely ever met with the response of "What is he doing that is abusive? What are you doing that is abusive to him?", the assumption that emotions are real is fair, the assumption that emotions are proportionate to others actions and behaviour is foolish. A child comes in from the school yard with a scratch on his knee balling his eyes out, the teacher might say, "it's a scratch, you're fine", this doesn't happen so often with accusations of abuse and calls for divorce.

I have done some serious email and whatsap snooping, I see what people write, in what context. The general population hasn't the FIRST CLUE about PD's and it's totally beyond their comprehension that someone can be X to them and Y when the front door closes. They see what they want to see. It's a fact I was too slow to grasp. Explaining your reality to others will get you nowhere other than forums such as this or T sessions.

Just my observations, but I have the scars from the mistakes I have made finding out. 

[Red5]

Just my observations, but I have the scars from the mistakes I have made finding out. 

I agree, and can absolutely concur Enabler, great post !

... .and beware the "flying monkeys"

Red5

[Notwendy]

Enabler, I think that is one ( of many ) reasons we don't tell people to leave or stay, but support them through arriving at their own decisions whatever that is. Otherwise we may also be the "well meaning" rescuers in someone's marriage.

I get what you are saying though, with regards to my mother- she really can be wonderful to her friends. I have heard some of them say " your mother is such a wonderful person" wondering if she put them up to it. I also have inadvertently seen e mail discussions about me- they sound like they are describing my mother's issues, as she tells them I am the one in the family with "problems". Since I don't live near her, she can paint any picture she wants to of me to them.

With the tougher years of my marriage, there were women at work who would be quite happy to have my husband- his persona at work is amazing. The woman who had a crush on him was not subtle- other people noticed it. This kind of ego boosting can cause issues in a marriage- if my H didn't feel happy with me, he got a huge ego boost at work, even if nothing happened physically- he knew she wanted him and all he had to do was accept it. Fortunately he didn't choose her over his marriage.

It also has to do with boundaries. I try not to vent to my friends about my marriage and certainly not to anyone at work. If someone started to do that with me in the workplace, I think I would gently suggest a counselor to talk to. If someone had a crush on me, it would raise   - I am married- off limits- that is a boundary. If there is a silver lining to having to do this kind of relationship work, it is the firmer boundaries we can gain from it.

[Enabler]

I have a MIL that people believe to be a saint straight from heaven... .to paint a picture of reality:

My Wife was berated AS SOON as she walked in the door from a close friends (42, 2x kids under 10, amazing wife. He died of cancer in a month) funeral. The reasons stated was that we got the pick-up time wrong for her picking up our D6 from school and we "ruined her whole afternoon" by not telling MIL that she would be an hour later than usual. She didn't let it drop for 5 minutes in her face until W edged out the door make excuses.

I am not a instinctively violent man but I have never been so close to picking up a 65yr old woman and throwing her out the back door onto the patio... .and going back to punch my 70yr old FIL who said absolutely nothing.

[Red5]

... .and going back to punch my 70yr old FIL who said absolutely nothing.

Wow Enabler !

Ever hear the term "hen pecked husband" ?

I do believe this BPD phenomenon is multi generational,

I have two (step) brother-in-laws so to speak, as this is my second marriage, so the other two sisters husbands, .when I told then I was marrying their wives sister, they say to me... .get this,

SIL #1, "why are you marrying her, [I say], because I want to make her happy, the reply, "well good luck with that chuckle chuckle"... .

SIL #2, "so you and u/BPDstbw are getting married?, .[I say], yes we are in love !... .the reply, ."love !/?... .why would you want to do that?"

... .and the best was saved for last, ."well Brother they both said, watch our for MIL, she is the craziest of them all"... .

yeah... . 

That was eight years ago now,

Red5