Mr & Mrs Dragon72 go to counselling (Part 1)

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

A day of silent treatment yesterday during which all 3 of us (her, me & son) went to the park, but she chose to stay apart from us the whole time. Later she ate separately too.

This morning more monosyllabic treatment except to criticize me about how I was doing the hhousework.

Then she suddenly announced she had set up a meeting with a therapist. And we're heading there now.

[Dragon72]

A day of silent treatment yesterday during which all 3 of us (her, me & son) went to the park, but she chose to stay apart from us the whole time. Later she ate separately too.

This morning more monosyllabic treatment except to criticize me about how I was doing the hhousework.

Then she suddenly announced she had set up a meeting with a therapist. And we're heading there now.

[Dragon72]

Should I tell the T that I think she shows signs of BPD?

[formflier]

Should I tell the T that I think she shows signs of BPD?

Describe behavior in great detail... .ask the T for help in sorting out conclusions.  Describe how perplexing this is to you... .the impact on your feelings.

I would advise you to stay away from announcing your own conclusions.

FF

[formflier]

In the off chance that she announces she quits T or this is bad idea.  Stay dispassionate... .make it clear that you will keep going.

My wife "quit" several times... .once it was obvious it wasn't stopping me she would usually return.

FF

[Red5]

Then she suddenly announced she had set up a meeting with a therapist. And we're heading there now.

So she has set up therapy sessions with a therapist, wow & awesome !... .some random thoughts, and observations;

*Sometimes the pw/BPD (albeit undiagnosed) will try to "own" the "T" session, ie' try to paint you the non as black from the git-go, ie' blame blame blame blame... .so as to turn and direct the course of the session, and or subsequent sessions for further control and or subjugation of the non.

*Don't think that the first session is going to be the big break through, it will take a long time to even get at the core/root issues.

*"T" sessions may actually trigger worse behaviors from your BPD/w, be prepared for that.

*Is this, .going to be under the auspices of marriage counseling, relationship counseling, certainly not that your BPD/w is going to march into the office and announce that she has BPD and wants to be cured, what are your thoughts Dragon72?

*If she goes and then quits, and as formflier says, YOU keep going, and at that point all source data between you and the "T" is now classified, and not the liberty of your BPD/w to know about, unless you want to tell her, but beware here as well, as she may be "mining" for further control information to use against you, .further tools for subjugation (controls).

*If BPD/w protest that you are going without her, I would use the line, ."this is for me", and say nothing else.

*And to further concur with formflier, I would NOT say anything to the "T" about BPD, only answer what the "T" may ask, and then follow up with "what behaviors you are concerned with, relationship dynamics, short term/long term goals, and what to / and or want to work on;... .and or improve for the long-term emotional health of the relationship marriage"... .and leave it at that.

*I am very glad for you and your BPD/w that a therapy session is forthcoming, just be careful, this is not going to be easy, or a "quick fix"... .but good luck anyways! 

*I do find it very interesting that your BPD/w would set this up, after everything we have been following in your story thus far, .it does peak the curiosity, and I do sincerely hope it is a positive outcome for you and your family Dragon72

Keep us posted !

Red5

[Dragon72]

Thanks for the words of encouragement all.

I really feel positive after our first session today!
I know it's very early in the process and really, I think my wife's problems are so deep-rooted, that I fear our relationship will never be a healthy one.  Nevertheless I feel good after today's first session.  Here's why:

I had my say first and I tried to stay as factual and as calm as possible.  I explained many of her behaviors, with examples, that fit into the BPD mold, without once mentioning the condition itself: fear of abandonment, jealousy, profound mistrust, fear of intimacy, difficulty in managing emotions, how I'm either 100% good or 100% bad in her eyes.  I explained my own wishes for a relationship: emotional intimacy, cooperation when trying to overcome challenges, a sense of interdependence, rather than control and dependence.  I confessed that I am naturally codependent and prone to making choices to keep the peace rather than imposing limits to protect what I think is right. I mentioned that recently when I have been clumsily trying to set boundaries that my wife has appeared to dial up the hostility.

My wife, of course dismissed all I said as lies and set about ranting about what an awful way she has been treated by me.  She explained how she is 100% victim and that she has no reason to feel anything she has done has contributed to our marriage problems.  It's all my fault, apparently. The therapist let her talk a good while, probably double my time, but I could see the therapist taking a keen interest in little give-aways that my wife said in her rant.  In fact, much of what my wife was saying seemed to confirm that she's displaying all the BPD traits that I set out earlier. 

The T picked her up on a few of the irrational things my wife was saying, which made me feel slightly vindicated, and also made me feel like hopefully, finally someone, apart from me (and you guys!) might be aware of what sort of person she is.

I think what really was clear from what my wife was saying was that she engages in a lot of catastrophic and  paranoid mind-reading.  The T picked up on that too. 

I got a real vibe from the T that she could see a lot of distorted thinking in what my wife was saying.

We talked about the money situation and I said that it was a big trigger and that cooperation had proven to be well nigh impossible. My wife kept insisting that I have stolen money from the family.

At the end of the session, the T invited us to suggest something to work on before next week's session.  Within a second or two my wife suggested "How to divide up the money".  I suggested, that maybe after barely communicating for nearly three weeks, we should work on starting to talk to eachother and in a civil manner. The T agreed with me that that was a better and more realistic goal to aim for.  I think my wife's behaviour in the session showed that she's not so much interested in a reconciliation with me, as a husband and a human being, as a regaining of control in the marriage.

She was really dysregulating during the session.  Throughout the session, my wife referred to me as "this man". I always referred to her by name.  Her lack of respect for me was clear.

Anyway, since the session ended, my wife has been grumpy and monosyllabic, only answering me with single words and only when absolutely necessary. I have tried to be cheerful, approachable and friendly with her, but I haven't been pushing it.  When I saw her heading upstairs to bed, I called after her "Good night!". She did answer with a "Good night" but it had the tone of a curse word.

We'll see what happens next week in our next session.  I don't expect progress any time soon. And I'm probably throwing away money on this.  But at least we're trying.

[GaGrl]

It's good that you are realistic about the therapy experience.

With patience and time, you'll either see improvement, or you'll gain insight into yourself and what you can do within the marriage and family dynamic (regardless of what your wife chooses).

[formflier]

  I think my wife's behaviour in the session showed that she's not so much interested in a reconciliation with me, as a husband and a human being, as a regaining of control in the marriage.
 

You are likely right on this.  Please use this knowledge to have and express empathy for your wife.

Imagine what it is like to really believe the rest of the world should be at your beck and call... .then have that world fall apart.

Good job shifting to communications... .vice money.

FF

[Enabler]

Control over the marriage or control over the money?

[Red5]

My wife, of course dismissed all I said as lies and set about ranting about what an awful way she has been treated by me.  She explained how she is 100% victim and that she has no reason to feel anything she has done has contributed to our marriage problems.  It's all my fault, apparently.

The therapist let her talk a good while, probably double my time, but I could see the therapist taking a keen interest in little give-aways that my wife said in her rant.  In fact, much of what my wife was saying seemed to confirm that she's displaying all the BPD traits that I set out earlier. 

The T picked her up on a few of the irrational things my wife was saying, which made me feel slightly vindicated, .

I think what really was clear from what my wife was saying was that she engages in a lot of catastrophic and  paranoid mind-reading.  The T picked up on that too. 

I got a real vibe from the T that she could see a lot of distorted thinking in what my wife was saying.

I think my wife's behaviour in the session showed that she's not so much interested in a reconciliation with me, as a husband and a human being, as a regaining of control in the marriage.

She was really dysregulating during the session.  Throughout the session, my wife referred to me as "this man". I always referred to her by name.  Her lack of respect for me was clear.

We'll see what happens next week in our next session.  I don't expect progress any time soon. And I'm probably throwing away money on this.  But at least we're trying.

Hang in there Dragon72,

As I read your "after action report"... .it reads just as I would have expected, from what I have been reading in your posts, in regards to your relationship with your BPD wife.

From what I gather from your post, I think your T is very much already aware (BPD behavior traits) and on point as to what is going on, so that is a good thing.

To the aware, experienced and informed person (BPD, or any other pd), .it does not take very long for one to recognize these behaviors, patterns, and expressions in language, action, and as well voiced opinions as BPD exhibits itself almost immediately when the subject person is in the "que"... .ie' your BPD wife sitting in the hot seat as it were in the T's office... .but to have a third; educated / informed / professional / neutral party “privy to”; is pretty good medicine there !

In my humble opinion, I perceive and understand that BPD is a spectrum type disorder, and if there are so many as ten behavior traits (of)... .and if the person who exhibits; is displaying five or more traits of, then the further to the right is the shift in the spectrum... .towards... .bad choice of words maybe... ."malignancy"... .ie' not much chance of any type of "come to Jesus " moment, .but at least your situation, relationship, is being vetted out now to some degree via sessions with a Therapist... .it still puzzles me why your BPD wife would “all of a sudden” want that, but it’s none of my business beyond curiosity, but thank goodness anyways right !

 I only hope one day my own u/BPD wife would agree to this (T)... .but I know that she never will, too many other things going on right now, if I see her, on the spectrum line, left to right, as right is severity from left... .and I observe her behaviors, over time (ten years)... .then indeed my own wife is never going to change, in fact she may even get worse as her life problems (health issues), FOO, and many other variables far beyond my control, or ability to remedy take their toll.

Anyways Dragon, keep us posted, and good luck my friend !

Red5

[Dragon72]

Update:

Well the session with the T was probably a bit too much emotionally for my wife to handle.  She has now gone into full war mode. She announced at the breakfast table, by saying it to our son, that she and he are moving out of this house and in with her brother who lives half a mile away. And they "never coming back".

"OK", I said. "I don't want this to happen, but it's your choice.  I hope we are still going to the next therapy session. Are we?"
"You can go. I don't care. Are you going to keep paying for our son's school?"
"Of course I will."

She then began to tell me how awful I am to her, how I aways claim to be the victim, how I made a promise to her parents to look after her, and how I ruined everything.

She has not moved out yet, but has taken our son off to the shops to buy something he needed.
I just took a call in the house from her brother. We didn't really talk at all. He just asked if my wife was in and I said no but he could find her on her cellphone. He said thanks and we said bye.

So today could be the first day of my separation.  I feel very sad that it could mean that I will see much less of my darling son.  But, being honest, I don't feel the remotest bit of sadness that my relationship with my wife seems to have come to an end.  I think the bad times have outweighed the good by 1,000 to 1, and it has taken so much emotional effort and self sacrifice to get just a few moments of pleasantness between us.  My only way out was to begin to assert myself and set boundaries, and that has resulted in this situation.

[formflier]

Have you had a discussion with a Lawyer? 

Are you really ok with her living with him... .without you around... .and nothing to modify or monitor what she is turning your son into.


The biggest question for the L (IMO) would be about mandatory counseling for your son, wife and you.  That the counselor specifically evaluate and comment on parenting styles and decisions... .

Where this is going is that you and she will eventually allege that very different visions for how to raise your son... .you need to understand how courts view that.

FF

[formflier]

"OK", I said. "I don't want this to happen, but it's your choice.  I hope we are still going to the next therapy session. Are we?"
"You can go. I don't care. Are you going to keep paying for our son's school?"
"Of course I will."

Hey... .I would stop talking about or agreeing to unrelated issues... unless you are going to relate them.

I'll pay for school as long as we are in therapy... .(very appropriate I think).

Why reduce her anxiety about doing the wrong thing?

FF

[Dragon72]

I want my son to continue his schooling in the school where I work because it is one of the top 5 private English language schools in Mexico and I receive a huge scholarship for him to attend. 80% this year. going up to 90% next year, and 100% free after that so long as I am an employee.  This school will give him the best opportunities in life where we live. I don't want him to move to another school for his sake, not hers. And I will continue to make sure that he goes to this one whether or not we're in therapy. 

She has already started to badmouth me to him while I'm around, she has already been parenting badly while I'm around.  But I do not want to cut my son off from his mother and when she's alone with him I cannot control her actions.

I will arrange to see a lawyer a.s.a.p.  Especially because I think she might allege inappropriate behaviour. yesterday with the T she said that she doesn't like that our son sits on my lap because "of course he's going to feel his penis".  And remember just recently when she told our son who had his foot on my lap, while he was lying on top of the bed, to get his "foot off Daddy's penis".

I've read the books. I know she's going to come out with an all-out smear campaign.

[GaGrl]

Any smear campaign she might attempt won't sound good next to her do-sleeping with your son at age 4.

[formflier]

Listen... .you are doing the right thing with your sons schooling.

What I think you need to evaluate is how quickly you reassure your wife that her crazy ideas will have no impact on the parts of what you do... .that she wants to continue.


her  "I'm taking your son away... regardless of what you say... "

you "That makes me so sad... ."

her  "you will still pay for his school... right?"

you (old you)  of course i will... don't worry yourself in the least

you (new you) "gosh... I don't know, so much his happening so quickly.  I'll have to give it some thought.  Likely best for us to discuss this in our next therapy session."

Do you see the difference... .?

FF

[formflier]

So... .wow... .what did T say about son sitting on lap and feeling penis?

Wow...


Hey... .any thought that your wife may have been abused growing up?  This seems really specific and really odd. 


FF

[Dragon72]

When my wife mentioned that about my son sitting on my lap and feeling my penis, I saw the T's eyebrows jump up.  When my wife finished what she was saying, the T asked her some questions that revealed that my wife has a very complex and difficult relationship with the concept of sexual relations. The T then began to ask questions about her childhood. 

The T was savvy. I could see her reading a whole lots between the lines of what my wife was saying.

It has certainly occurred to me that my wife may have undergone some sort of traumatic sexual experience as a child.  I have also heard from one of her siblings that their mother was really mean to her when she was growing up.  But who knows? 

From many of my wife's behaviors, such as difficulty with intimacy, obsession with what people say about her, inability to relax, it's clear that she suffers from real core shame.  It's so sad.

[formflier]

  it's clear that she suffers from real core shame.  It's so sad.

Perhaps... .

Let the T guide you in figuring out core issues... .versus symptoms of core issues.  That is a delicate process.

So... .what kind of answers did your wife give that showed the complex ideas?

Which of these were you aware of and which ones were news to you?



Did your wife's issues with intimacy show up after kid was born, or were there some odd things before then.

Did the issue of your wife sleeping with the boy get mentioned or talked about in the session?

FF

[Dragon72]

What suggested to the T the complicated relationship with sex?

The fact that she's been sharing a bed with her son rather than her husband.  That she mentioned she was a virgin until the age of 46 when she started seeing me.  That she has never had an orgasm. That she expressed disgust that, on the few occasions we managed to get someone to look after our son, I seemed to "only want to stay at home and have sex".

The issue of the impact on our son of her sleeping with him wasn't really discussed. The T's focus was more on her dysfunctional relationship with me.

My wife's intimacy issues did show up before our son was born. But I just thought they were either down to her relative inexperience, or the fact that she's a Christian goody-two-shoes or perhaps due to a painful but unmentioned past experience.  Either way, I felt I ought to be accepting of her whatever the reason.  That's what couple's do isn't it? Accept and love the other person, their good parts and their damaged parts?

[formflier]

Were you aware she was a virgin when you two started your r/s?

Do you believe her?

How did she explain that?

(note to all... .not saying anything wrong with being a virgin at that age)

FF

[Dragon72]

I wasn't aware she was a virgin when we started our rs. Actually I got her age slightly wrong. She was 43.
I do believe her. The first time, which she initiated and led, was pretty painful for her.  That's when I realised.
She has always been no good at sex. Not very active. Very passive. I don't think she ever saw it as fun or playful.

I agree with you, nothing wrong with being an virgin at 43.  A little unusual, but nothing wrong with it.

[Harri]

Hi Dragon72.  What a difficult situation for you and your young son. 

You have received excellent support and feedback so I don't have much to say except to ask if you have thought about working out what days/evenings you get to have your son stay with you, including overnights?  I understand you do not want to keep him from his mother but he needs his Dad as well, especially as you are the stable parent.

Wishing you and yours the very best.

[formflier]

So... .

What is sex life like now?

Can you chart changes in sex life over the period of your relatonship.

If she never thought it was "fun"... .was there ever a time she enjoyed it? 

Do you see her view of sex having changed over the course of your r/s... .or relatively stable.

FF

[Dragon72]

We haven't done it since January.

Assuming it's all in the past now, she would want it every two or three months or so and we would do it maybe a couple of times that week, then another dry spell.  The longest dry spell lasted I think 7 months.

There were times when she seemed to be into it and enjoy it, but, as I said, it was all very missionary and passive. After the first couple of years of refusing it, she ended up enjoying me going down on her. 


But all in all, there was never a sense of "play" or "fooling around". 

She would always do it like this: she's come out of our son's room, undress in the dark in "our" bedroom, then (most often) text me, or phone me downstairs to call me up. ":)o you want to?" is how she used to phrase it.

After we'd finish, she would get straight out of the bed, clean up in the bathroom, say goodnight and go back to bed with our son.  No post coital cuddles.  I often felt a bit used as if I were some sort of rent-boy.

[formflier]

So... any pattern or "reason" you could figure out she was ready?  Or any reason she would then quit?

It doesn't sound like there was any history of you being interested and she responding?

Boy... this is tough to wrap my head around how she would feel sometimes is OK and then other times she would need to withdraw.

Was there something in particular that she was after... or that you agreed to after sex?

FF

[Dragon72]

Whenever I expressed an interest/desire, she wasn't interested.  I think everything about her has to be on her terms.

I couldn't figure out a pattern.  Maybe it was at certain stages of the menstrual cycle. Some women get hornier on particular times of their cycle.  She would never talk about her menstrual cycle and never left any evidence of sanitary products either. 

We would do it generally when we were on good(ish) terms with each other.

AFAIK, there was not anything she was after, nor that I agreed to, but maybe I'm just not connecting the dots.  But I don't think she used to ask any special favors before or afterwards, so I don't think she used it to trade for a service.

[Dragon72]

Update:
I got back home, to find her and our son at home.
"Weren't you going to go to your brother's?"
"That's going to be from Monday. Why, do you want us out sooner?"
"No, I don't want you out.  Will you be coming to the T on Wednesday?"
Silence.

Later, my son said that I need to give more money to Mommy because his mommy told him that I have lots.
I managed to persuade my wife to listen to me as I showed her the online bank statement and explained the outgoings and current balance. 

I finished by saying, "So you can see now how much we have and maybe that will help you to understand why I'm being very careful with it right now".

She listened impassively, but did pay attention, however it was with a "sick and tired" expression on her face. When I finished, she said, "It's your money" and walked off.

At least she listened. Every time I have tried that in the past, she has refused to hear a word.

[GD39]

In the off chance that she announces she quits T or this is bad idea.  Stay dispassionate... .make it clear that you will keep going.

My wife "quit" several times... .once it was obvious it wasn't stopping me she would usually return.

FF

You are the guru! I need to learn that!

[GD39]

I am really happy for you Dragon. I sure hope it works for you.

[Dragon72]

So more silent treatment this morning, my last vacation weekday before going back to work on Monday. And, according to my wife, one of the last days before she moves out with our son to her brother's house.
I broke the ice by saying, "Hey, I'd like to take our son to the park this morning. Would you like to come too, or did you have other plans for today?"
"I'm going to stay here to organize things," she said. Presumably to start to pack.
Then she turned to our son and said, "Later this afternoon we're going to your cousin's house".
"Oh yeah?", said I, "you staying the night?"
"Might be."

Just before I left for the park, my wife said to me that she plans to move to her brother's for a year.
":)uring that time," she said, "you are going to get therapy to fix you because you are seriously mentally ill and you need to work out whatever happened to you as a child".
"Right, ok, wow!" I replied "Listen, I think the best thing for us to do is give this couple's therapy a shot. Once is not enough to give up and separate. Besides, I think the therapist was beginning to touch on some issues from both of our childhoods, and I think we need to work through that.  Let's work it through in the session on Wednesday. Anyway, what time are you going to your brother's today?"
"Are you so desperate to get us out of the house?" she said aggressively.
"No. I would like you to stay. I was just asking so that I can plan the day better.  Please don't be so aggressive. The T said we should work on communicating, and communicating in a civl manner."

[Dragon72]

Son & I went to the park and had a great time.

We got back and as we arrived, we saw my wife's sister in the house who answered my cheery "Hi!" with a self conscious "Hi, I was just leaving... ." as she hurried out the door.
I cooked lunch for son & me (wife said she would eat her special diet separately).

After lunch I got changed to go for a run. As I came downstairs my wife told me to sit down.  Uh oh.  
She said she wanted to negotiate.

"Great!", I said, "Let's talk this through".
"I want you to give me the same amount of money you used to give me."
"That doesn't work for me, I'm afraid, as that would be going back to the way we did things when you were in control of all the money that I earn that doesn't go on bills. That was when you offered me a loan of money so that I could buy the family groceries.  I wasn't happy with that situation."
"But all Mexican wives manage their husbands' money!"
"Really? I mean, really? Besides, I'm not Mexican".
"But I need to be able to make purchases!" she said.
"And I need to know where our limited resources are going."
She pressed on, "I need to buy clothes for our son, and yes, clothes for me too, and food" she insisted.
"I tell you what, I would like you to make a list or better still a spreadsheet in which you list all the things that you anticipate needing to spend money on, then come back to me, and we'll work out a plan about how to fit that into the family budget. Be sure to include some spending money for you too. Then we can discuss it."
"Why are you being so closed off about this? Why don't you just give me the amount you used to give me?", she whined.  She also accused me of robbing money from her while she had control.  Total nonsense.
"I'm being far from closed off," I said. "I am offering to have ongoing dialog, cooperation and compromise through agreement, which your offer doesn't.  Besides, these are things perhaps that we can talk through with the T on Wednesday. You're still coming right?"
"I want us to look for another T," she said.
"What? After just one session?"  I don't think that my wife had been prepared for the fact that the T might identify HER as having issues that contribute to our marital problems.
"Yes, she was a nice lady and everything, but I think we should shop around," said my wife. Yeah, I thought, she didn't like the spotlight on her own issues, for sure.

In the end I managed to persuade my wife (just!) to have at least one more session with the same marriage therapist and I said that I would continue to go in any case even if she didn't

I was determined to shut down the conversation. "Make a list," I said, "of what you think you need to spend money on, with actual amounts, and we can talk about it. And we'll be going to the T on Wednesday to talk more about us as a couple."

Then I went for a run, came back home, wife and son nowhere to be seen.

[GaGrl]

I was wondering how far she might push the "moving out to live with brother" situation. She might have thought it would result in your capitulation on the money front. Good job on holding to your values!

On the spreadsheet... .you are asking for her list of wants and needs, with costs. On the income side of the equation, does she know exactly what you are works my with each payday? Gross, net, deductions, Bill obligations? I ask because it sounds like the cash she used to get was detached from the reality of the actual income.

[Dragon72]

Only yesterday evening I went through my online bank statement line by line, showing how much comes in and explaining where everything has been going and has to go, including the money I gave her. I explained that after all the expenses and bills in the last week, we have x amount left until next Friday when I get paid again, and that we have to be wise about where it goes.

Yet this morning she said to me "Where did all your last paycheck all go?  Why do we have so little in the bank now?"

Either she has the memory of a goldfish, or she's living in denial. Or she has BPD.

[GD39]

Either she has the memory of a goldfish, or she's living in denial. Or she has BPD.

This was hilarious, however, very sad that we all go through this. You are holding up real good Dragon. I am seeing my ex tomorrow after a month apart, and I am a wreck trying to figure out how to handle it.

[Dragon72]

I was wondering how far she might push the "moving out to live with brother" situation. She might have thought it would result in your capitulation on the money front.

To be honest, I need a break from her, so her moving out, for a while at least is a merciful release. I will miss my son dreadfully though.


I have a confession to make.  I voice recorded the last conversation about the money and the not wanting to go to the T.  I probably won't ever "use" the recording, but it just made me feel better to know I have proof, to me at least, that I am not the unreasonable one.  Also I feel quite proud of myself for holding firm and it's a souvenir of that.

[GaGrl]

On the question as to where the money went, maybe she was not fully tuned in. When she comes back with the spreadsheet, have her match the wants/need to your take-home and figure it out. She may have to wrestle with it long enough to accept reality.

And I agree... .let her take a break at her brother's house. You need it, and she can compare life with you (under new family rules) to life without you (and the financial situation that comes with living apart).

[Dragon72]

When she comes back with the spreadsheet... .

She's not going to come back with a spreadsheet.  I knew it when I said it.  She will maybe come up with something deliberately incomprehensible and vague on the back of a napkin, but she will not cooperate in the way I suggested. She doesn't do cooperation. It's her way or the highway. That's why we're in this mess.

[formflier]

Hey man... I get it you want a break from your wife... .I don't understand how you have "ceded" that the son goes with her.

If he goes to your school... .wouldn't it make more sense for him to stay with you... .and you take him to school?

    that she is deciding this... .

FF

[formflier]

She's not going to come back with a spreadsheet.  I knew it when I said it.  She will maybe come up with something deliberately incomprehensible and vague on the back of a napkin, but she will not cooperate in the way I suggested. She doesn't do cooperation. It's her way or the highway. That's why we're in this mess.

And that's her choice... .so... .you run the money... .let her figure out if and when she wants to be reasonable.

FF

[GaGrl]

OK, so... .no spreadsheet.

If she shows up for the therapist appointment on Wed, and wants to pursue the money question, you have two points from this week:

1) Agreement was to work on respectful communication. She wants to move in with Brother and find another T.

2) You made full disclosure of income and bank statement and invited her to list wants/needs.

And go from there.

(By the way, the only reason my DH's marriage to his former wife, uNPD/BPD, was that he deployed regularly as an Army Infantry Officer. He knew it provided a stable living yet meant he didn't have to live with her 365 days a year.)

[Dragon72]

I'm not 100% cool with her taking our son like that.  Yes he does attend the same school as me, but he is in the Kinder section, which is actually across the road from where I work in the High School side of things.  I start my day an hour earlier than him and he finishes about 2-3 hours earlier than me, so it makes sense, with a non-working SAHM, for her to take him to school and pick him up.

We are 1 night into the "separation". I don't know if they are coming back today. Yesterday morning my wife said she would be moving out "on Monday for a year". But who knows if that was just bluff to try to shock me or if she meant it?  So I don't know. We haven't discussed custody or visitation rights in the event of a separation.  We have to actually be talking to eachother and in the same place for that to happen.  I'm hoping that some things will be resolved on Wednesday in the couple's T session.

I also hope that some of her family members who haven't been sucked in by her sob story and turned into flying monkeys will approach me and hear me out. But I have no expectations on them seeing my side of things, and I'm not going to approach them to try to plead my case.

I'm meeting a lawyer tomorrow.

[formflier]

Lawyer meeting will be key.  What questions do you have for him. 

Is there an option for you to take your done to and from school... .so she is not needed. 

Even if that option costs you money... .it will likely be well worth it.

I would be cautious of family members approaching you.  Triangulation is bad.

FF

[Dragon72]

I'm not really sure what questions I have for him.

• I want to know if he has any experience with personality disorders or high conflict cases. If not, who can he steer me towards.

• I want to discuss the issues around custody. I don't want to deny my son his mother, so I wouldn't want to go for 100% custody for me.  But is equally split custody necessarily a good thing?  50-50 could be very disruptive to him but I don't want to be the "every other weekend for 48 hours type dad either. 

• I'm not even sure if she'll be that bad of a mother with me out of the picture.  I think it was my wife's fear of intimacy with me that drove her to share his bed. But what do I know? 

• I want to know what my responsibilities towards my wife are, given the fact that she's a SAHM relying on me for income.

• I want someone to talk to me about what my options are and how the whole system works, especially as it's here in Mexico.

• I also want to know if I'll be able to afford it, given that I have pretty much zero savings and a few hundred bucks worth of credit card debt.

[Dragon72]

This is the second night I'm alone in the house.  They did not return to the house at all today.  My wife left the money I gave to her "for her" on the kitchen table. It's still there, so in theory she has no money right now and no doubt she is telling her brother that I have cut off all funds to her and to our son, which is just not true.

[GaGrl]

What is your relationship with your BIL?

Can you contact him and say something like, "I am concerned that Wife left xxxpesos of her personal account on our dining room table. Does she need funds?" I

Could border on tiangulation. On the other hand, why should BIL think that he's taking in a charity case?

Also, what is BIL's patience level with your wife? How long will be tolerate her at his residence? Is this your wife's entitlement at work?

[Enabler]

I think it’s important to allow your W FOO to come to their own conclusions, invited advice/information is infinitely more welcomed than uninvited. I like Gagrl’s suggestion of sending your BIL a message showing concern but also highlighting that your W had left funds that you provided at the family home. At a later date if this continues maybe send something suggesting some money for upkeep. This heads off her rhetoric of control and financial restriction.

If he wants to ask further questions then answer them in a factual way with no advice or interpretation. That way he can tie together what he hears from her and what he hears from you. Obviously you have to deliver on what you say you will else your credibility diminishes.

This is not so much about triangulating him, he has already been triangulated by your W, this is about moving yourself from the perpetrator role into the centre. The more your BIL sees you not participating in the drama, being constructive and acting as a healthy adult, the less the drama triangle makes sense and more your W behaviour becomes visible, her inconsistencies apparent and ultimately the more likely your BIL is to challenge her.

[formflier]

Make sure you ask how to force therapy for child and your wife.

Ask if the sleeping thing can be put in a court order.

Basically... how is healthy parenting monitored and forced by court.

What happens if one parent is making healthy choices and one is causing developmental delays.

FF

[Dragon72]

Update:
I had a good meeting with the lawyer.  It could be quite a ride, whenever it is I decide to pull the trigger.

Well it seems the separation was short-lived. After "leaving" on Friday, she was back on Sunday evening without saying how long she would be back for. Still not talking to me. 

I went to work on Monday, thinking that, as she had said, that would be the day that she "moves out". But no.  I came back from work this evening to find her very much here. She had prepared a meal for me. Still not really talking to me except to say how much she had spent in the market and she told me a believable amount so I reimbursed her for that (they don't give receipts in our local market).  It seems she stocked the fridge at least until next week, so maybe she's here to stay.

I must say I was disappointed to see her return. I was blissfullt stress free while she was away. But I missed my son terribly.

I'm looking forward to Wednesday's T session.  I want to see her show the T again how unstable and irrational she is.  That could be useful later in court if and when it comes to that.

[AskingWhy]

Dragon, my uBPD/uNPD H went to counseling years ago.  I was in tears when I spoke to the T (an LCSW) privately and she offered to give me the name of a divorce attorney.  Then she saw H one-on-one.  The next dual session was a surprise.  Clearly H had T eating out of his hand.

I wept during one session and shouted about H's behavior to me (emotional blackmail, name-calling, punching holes in the wall, upending chairs, divorce threats, etc.) and T stood up and pointed down at me and shouted, "This is supposed to be a safe place.  I will not let you speak to your husband in my office!  If you don't stop this you will lose this man who loves you."

BPDs have a way of lying and making themselves the victim.  All the way home, H had a satisfied smirk on his face, and said, "You see.  The T says you are wrong.   You're out of control.  Admit you are the wrong party in this."

pwPDs have a way of doing things like this.  That is why they call it "crazy-making" even though they are the abusers.

Again, this is a great book entitled, "Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder."  It's written by a man who is both a therapist and a lawyer.  :)r. Eddy deals with high-conflict divorces and is the main partner in his "High Conflict Institute."

https://www.highconflictinstitute.com/billeddy

[Enabler]

Dragon, you stood your ground, she threw a tantrum, you stood your ground, it didn't work, she's now sulking... .think 4yr old.

Focus 100% of your attention on your young lad, the relationship you have with him is the single most important thing at the moment regardless of the outcome of this drama. Continue to show her that you know your mind, have confidence in your thought process and avoid being bogged down by her games. It is incredibly tough but if you can keep "chipper" regardless of her stone walling you she will see that the games no longer work. Fish to see if the ST has ended but don't push it in the slightest, any resistance and back off.

My take is that moving out was designed to punish you, you were supposed to go chasing after her and admit it was all your fault... .that didn't happen so now the big threats she has made are nothing. On the money front, you have control and are being fair... .be sure not to abuse that and stay reasonable and hopefully she will continue to learn what works.

Others may disagree but try and reduce the number of issues you are trying to tackle at one time. The more she feels chastised by you about EVERYTHING she does the less likely she is going to be able to focus on her behavior about one individual issue.

Co-sleeping isn't great and I wonder if there is a more subtle way of dealing with this. "W, what if his school friends find out he sleeps with his mum every night? Wow he's going to get bullied". Just a thought, somehow it needs to be her... .or his choice that she doesn't share a bed with him.

Observe but don't comment, absorb information for a while.

[formflier]

Well it seems the separation was short-lived. After "leaving" on Friday, she was back on Sunday evening without saying how long she would be back for. Still not talking to me. 
 

I would recommend against asking her about it.  She bluffed... .she blinked... .no need or positive outcome from rubbing her nose in it.

Understand the big picture... .she really "felt" like moving out for a year when she said it.  She didn't "feel" that way when it came time to actually do it.  That is likely very confusing to her... .

As always... .let her connect the dots on that.

How do the laws and courts support mandatory counseling and things like that in your country?


FF

[Speck]

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