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Author Topic: Mr & Mrs Dragon72 go to counselling (Part 1)  (Read 1018 times)
Dragon72
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« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2018, 06:14:26 PM »

So more silent treatment this morning, my last vacation weekday before going back to work on Monday. And, according to my wife, one of the last days before she moves out with our son to her brother's house.
I broke the ice by saying, "Hey, I'd like to take our son to the park this morning. Would you like to come too, or did you have other plans for today?"
"I'm going to stay here to organize things," she said. Presumably to start to pack.
Then she turned to our son and said, "Later this afternoon we're going to your cousin's house".
"Oh yeah?", said I, "you staying the night?"
"Might be."

Just before I left for the park, my wife said to me that she plans to move to her brother's for a year.
":)uring that time," she said, "you are going to get therapy to fix you because you are seriously mentally ill and you need to work out whatever happened to you as a child".
"Right, ok, wow!" I replied "Listen, I think the best thing for us to do is give this couple's therapy a shot. Once is not enough to give up and separate. Besides, I think the therapist was beginning to touch on some issues from both of our childhoods, and I think we need to work through that.  Let's work it through in the session on Wednesday. Anyway, what time are you going to your brother's today?"
"Are you so desperate to get us out of the house?" she said aggressively.
"No. I would like you to stay. I was just asking so that I can plan the day better.  Please don't be so aggressive. The T said we should work on communicating, and communicating in a civl manner."

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« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2018, 06:22:23 PM »

Son & I went to the park and had a great time.

We got back and as we arrived, we saw my wife's sister in the house who answered my cheery "Hi!" with a self conscious "Hi, I was just leaving... ." as she hurried out the door.
I cooked lunch for son & me (wife said she would eat her special diet separately).

After lunch I got changed to go for a run. As I came downstairs my wife told me to sit down.  Uh oh.  
She said she wanted to negotiate.

"Great!", I said, "Let's talk this through".
"I want you to give me the same amount of money you used to give me."
"That doesn't work for me, I'm afraid, as that would be going back to the way we did things when you were in control of all the money that I earn that doesn't go on bills. That was when you offered me a loan of money so that I could buy the family groceries.  I wasn't happy with that situation."
"But all Mexican wives manage their husbands' money!"
"Really? I mean, really? Besides, I'm not Mexican".
"But I need to be able to make purchases!" she said.
"And I need to know where our limited resources are going."
She pressed on, "I need to buy clothes for our son, and yes, clothes for me too, and food" she insisted.
"I tell you what, I would like you to make a list or better still a spreadsheet in which you list all the things that you anticipate needing to spend money on, then come back to me, and we'll work out a plan about how to fit that into the family budget. Be sure to include some spending money for you too. Then we can discuss it."
"Why are you being so closed off about this? Why don't you just give me the amount you used to give me?", she whined.  She also accused me of robbing money from her while she had control.  Total nonsense.
"I'm being far from closed off," I said. "I am offering to have ongoing dialog, cooperation and compromise through agreement, which your offer doesn't.  Besides, these are things perhaps that we can talk through with the T on Wednesday. You're still coming right?"
"I want us to look for another T," she said.
"What? After just one session?"  I don't think that my wife had been prepared for the fact that the T might identify HER as having issues that contribute to our marital problems.
"Yes, she was a nice lady and everything, but I think we should shop around," said my wife. Yeah, I thought, she didn't like the spotlight on her own issues, for sure.

In the end I managed to persuade my wife (just!) to have at least one more session with the same marriage therapist and I said that I would continue to go in any case even if she didn't

I was determined to shut down the conversation. "Make a list," I said, "of what you think you need to spend money on, with actual amounts, and we can talk about it. And we'll be going to the T on Wednesday to talk more about us as a couple."

Then I went for a run, came back home, wife and son nowhere to be seen.
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GaGrl
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« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2018, 06:36:14 PM »

I was wondering how far she might push the "moving out to live with brother" situation. She might have thought it would result in your capitulation on the money front. Good job on holding to your values!

On the spreadsheet... .you are asking for her list of wants and needs, with costs. On the income side of the equation, does she know exactly what you are works my with each payday? Gross, net, deductions, Bill obligations? I ask because it sounds like the cash she used to get was detached from the reality of the actual income.
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Dragon72
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« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2018, 06:51:11 PM »

Only yesterday evening I went through my online bank statement line by line, showing how much comes in and explaining where everything has been going and has to go, including the money I gave her. I explained that after all the expenses and bills in the last week, we have x amount left until next Friday when I get paid again, and that we have to be wise about where it goes.

Yet this morning she said to me "Where did all your last paycheck all go?  Why do we have so little in the bank now?"

Either she has the memory of a goldfish, or she's living in denial. Or she has BPD.
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« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2018, 07:00:07 PM »

Either she has the memory of a goldfish, or she's living in denial. Or she has BPD.

This was hilarious, however, very sad that we all go through this. You are holding up real good Dragon. I am seeing my ex tomorrow after a month apart, and I am a wreck trying to figure out how to handle it.
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Dragon72
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« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2018, 07:14:39 PM »

I was wondering how far she might push the "moving out to live with brother" situation. She might have thought it would result in your capitulation on the money front.

To be honest, I need a break from her, so her moving out, for a while at least is a merciful release. I will miss my son dreadfully though.


I have a confession to make.  I voice recorded the last conversation about the money and the not wanting to go to the T.  I probably won't ever "use" the recording, but it just made me feel better to know I have proof, to me at least, that I am not the unreasonable one.  Also I feel quite proud of myself for holding firm and it's a souvenir of that.
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GaGrl
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« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2018, 08:47:49 PM »

On the question as to where the money went, maybe she was not fully tuned in. When she comes back with the spreadsheet, have her match the wants/need to your take-home and figure it out. She may have to wrestle with it long enough to accept reality.

And I agree... .let her take a break at her brother's house. You need it, and she can compare life with you (under new family rules) to life without you (and the financial situation that comes with living apart).

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"...what's past is prologue; what to come,
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Dragon72
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« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2018, 09:00:07 PM »

When she comes back with the spreadsheet... .


She's not going to come back with a spreadsheet.  I knew it when I said it.  She will maybe come up with something deliberately incomprehensible and vague on the back of a napkin, but she will not cooperate in the way I suggested. She doesn't do cooperation. It's her way or the highway. That's why we're in this mess.
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« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2018, 09:21:40 PM »


Hey man... I get it you want a break from your wife... .I don't understand how you have "ceded" that the son goes with her.

If he goes to your school... .wouldn't it make more sense for him to stay with you... .and you take him to school?

 Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post)   that she is deciding this... .

FF
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« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2018, 09:22:16 PM »

She's not going to come back with a spreadsheet.  I knew it when I said it.  She will maybe come up with something deliberately incomprehensible and vague on the back of a napkin, but she will not cooperate in the way I suggested. She doesn't do cooperation. It's her way or the highway. That's why we're in this mess.

And that's her choice... .so... .you run the money... .let her figure out if and when she wants to be reasonable.

FF
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GaGrl
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« Reply #40 on: April 06, 2018, 09:52:56 PM »

OK, so... .no spreadsheet.

If she shows up for the therapist appointment on Wed, and wants to pursue the money question, you have two points from this week:

1) Agreement was to work on respectful communication. She wants to move in with Brother and find another T.

2) You made full disclosure of income and bank statement and invited her to list wants/needs.

And go from there.

(By the way, the only reason my DH's marriage to his former wife, uNPD/BPD, was that he deployed regularly as an Army Infantry Officer. He knew it provided a stable living yet meant he didn't have to live with her 365 days a year.)
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"...what's past is prologue; what to come,
In yours and my discharge."
Dragon72
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« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2018, 12:07:57 PM »

I'm not 100% cool with her taking our son like that.  Yes he does attend the same school as me, but he is in the Kinder section, which is actually across the road from where I work in the High School side of things.  I start my day an hour earlier than him and he finishes about 2-3 hours earlier than me, so it makes sense, with a non-working SAHM, for her to take him to school and pick him up.

We are 1 night into the "separation". I don't know if they are coming back today. Yesterday morning my wife said she would be moving out "on Monday for a year". But who knows if that was just bluff to try to shock me or if she meant it?  So I don't know. We haven't discussed custody or visitation rights in the event of a separation.  We have to actually be talking to eachother and in the same place for that to happen.  I'm hoping that some things will be resolved on Wednesday in the couple's T session.

I also hope that some of her family members who haven't been sucked in by her sob story and turned into flying monkeys will approach me and hear me out. But I have no expectations on them seeing my side of things, and I'm not going to approach them to try to plead my case.

I'm meeting a lawyer tomorrow.
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« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2018, 05:00:50 PM »

Lawyer meeting will be key.  What questions do you have for him. 

Is there an option for you to take your done to and from school... .so she is not needed. 

Even if that option costs you money... .it will likely be well worth it.

I would be cautious of family members approaching you.  Triangulation is bad.

FF
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Dragon72
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« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2018, 05:45:38 PM »

I'm not really sure what questions I have for him.

  • I want to know if he has any experience with personality disorders or high conflict cases. If not, who can he steer me towards.
  • I want to discuss the issues around custody. I don't want to deny my son his mother, so I wouldn't want to go for 100% custody for me.  But is equally split custody necessarily a good thing?  50-50 could be very disruptive to him but I don't want to be the "every other weekend for 48 hours type dad either. 
  • I'm not even sure if she'll be that bad of a mother with me out of the picture.  I think it was my wife's fear of intimacy with me that drove her to share his bed. But what do I know? 
  • I want to know what my responsibilities towards my wife are, given the fact that she's a SAHM relying on me for income.
  • I want someone to talk to me about what my options are and how the whole system works, especially as it's here in Mexico.
  • I also want to know if I'll be able to afford it, given that I have pretty much zero savings and a few hundred bucks worth of credit card debt.
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Dragon72
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« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2018, 09:28:27 PM »

This is the second night I'm alone in the house.  They did not return to the house at all today.  My wife left the money I gave to her "for her" on the kitchen table. It's still there, so in theory she has no money right now and no doubt she is telling her brother that I have cut off all funds to her and to our son, which is just not true.
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GaGrl
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« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2018, 09:50:17 PM »

What is your relationship with your BIL?

Can you contact him and say something like, "I am concerned that Wife left xxxpesos of her personal account on our dining room table. Does she need funds?" I

Could border on tiangulation. On the other hand, why should BIL think that he's taking in a charity case?

Also, what is BIL's patience level with your wife? How long will be tolerate her at his residence? Is this your wife's entitlement at work?

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« Reply #46 on: April 08, 2018, 05:35:06 AM »

I think it’s important to allow your W FOO to come to their own conclusions, invited advice/information is infinitely more welcomed than uninvited. I like Gagrl’s suggestion of sending your BIL a message showing concern but also highlighting that your W had left funds that you provided at the family home. At a later date if this continues maybe send something suggesting some money for upkeep. This heads off her rhetoric of control and financial restriction.

If he wants to ask further questions then answer them in a factual way with no advice or interpretation. That way he can tie together what he hears from her and what he hears from you. Obviously you have to deliver on what you say you will else your credibility diminishes.

This is not so much about triangulating him, he has already been triangulated by your W, this is about moving yourself from the perpetrator role into the centre. The more your BIL sees you not participating in the drama, being constructive and acting as a healthy adult, the less the drama triangle makes sense and more your W behaviour becomes visible, her inconsistencies apparent and ultimately the more likely your BIL is to challenge her.
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« Reply #47 on: April 08, 2018, 08:55:07 PM »

Make sure you ask how to force therapy for child and your wife.

Ask if the sleeping thing can be put in a court order.

Basically... how is healthy parenting monitored and forced by court.

What happens if one parent is making healthy choices and one is causing developmental delays.

FF
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Dragon72
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« Reply #48 on: April 09, 2018, 07:54:43 PM »

Update:
I had a good meeting with the lawyer.  It could be quite a ride, whenever it is I decide to pull the trigger.

Well it seems the separation was short-lived. After "leaving" on Friday, she was back on Sunday evening without saying how long she would be back for. Still not talking to me. 

I went to work on Monday, thinking that, as she had said, that would be the day that she "moves out". But no.  I came back from work this evening to find her very much here. She had prepared a meal for me. Still not really talking to me except to say how much she had spent in the market and she told me a believable amount so I reimbursed her for that (they don't give receipts in our local market).  It seems she stocked the fridge at least until next week, so maybe she's here to stay.

I must say I was disappointed to see her return. I was blissfullt stress free while she was away. But I missed my son terribly.

I'm looking forward to Wednesday's T session.  I want to see her show the T again how unstable and irrational she is.  That could be useful later in court if and when it comes to that.
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« Reply #49 on: April 10, 2018, 12:24:09 AM »

Dragon, my uBPD/uNPD H went to counseling years ago.  I was in tears when I spoke to the T (an LCSW) privately and she offered to give me the name of a divorce attorney.  Then she saw H one-on-one.  The next dual session was a surprise.  Clearly H had T eating out of his hand.

I wept during one session and shouted about H's behavior to me (emotional blackmail, name-calling, punching holes in the wall, upending chairs, divorce threats, etc.) and T stood up and pointed down at me and shouted, "This is supposed to be a safe place.  I will not let you speak to your husband in my office!  If you don't stop this you will lose this man who loves you."

BPDs have a way of lying and making themselves the victim.  All the way home, H had a satisfied smirk on his face, and said, "You see.  The T says you are wrong.   You're out of control.  Admit you are the wrong party in this."

pwPDs have a way of doing things like this.  That is why they call it "crazy-making" even though they are the abusers.

Again, this is a great book entitled, "Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder."  It's written by a man who is both a therapist and a lawyer.  :)r. Eddy deals with high-conflict divorces and is the main partner in his "High Conflict Institute."

https://www.highconflictinstitute.com/billeddy



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« Reply #50 on: April 10, 2018, 02:06:03 AM »

Dragon, you stood your ground, she threw a tantrum, you stood your ground, it didn't work, she's now sulking... .think 4yr old.

Focus 100% of your attention on your young lad, the relationship you have with him is the single most important thing at the moment regardless of the outcome of this drama. Continue to show her that you know your mind, have confidence in your thought process and avoid being bogged down by her games. It is incredibly tough but if you can keep "chipper" regardless of her stone walling you she will see that the games no longer work. Fish to see if the ST has ended but don't push it in the slightest, any resistance and back off.

My take is that moving out was designed to punish you, you were supposed to go chasing after her and admit it was all your fault... .that didn't happen so now the big threats she has made are nothing. On the money front, you have control and are being fair... .be sure not to abuse that and stay reasonable and hopefully she will continue to learn what works.

Others may disagree but try and reduce the number of issues you are trying to tackle at one time. The more she feels chastised by you about EVERYTHING she does the less likely she is going to be able to focus on her behavior about one individual issue.

Co-sleeping isn't great and I wonder if there is a more subtle way of dealing with this. "W, what if his school friends find out he sleeps with his mum every night? Wow he's going to get bullied". Just a thought, somehow it needs to be her... .or his choice that she doesn't share a bed with him.

Observe but don't comment, absorb information for a while.
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« Reply #51 on: April 10, 2018, 06:37:17 AM »



Well it seems the separation was short-lived. After "leaving" on Friday, she was back on Sunday evening without saying how long she would be back for. Still not talking to me. 
 

I would recommend against asking her about it.  She bluffed... .she blinked... .no need or positive outcome from rubbing her nose in it.

Understand the big picture... .she really "felt" like moving out for a year when she said it.  She didn't "feel" that way when it came time to actually do it.  That is likely very confusing to her... .

As always... .let her connect the dots on that.

How do the laws and courts support mandatory counseling and things like that in your country?


FF
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« Reply #52 on: April 16, 2018, 01:20:03 PM »

Staff only

This thread has reached its posting limit and is now locked.

A continuation thread has been started here.

Thank you for your participation.
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