Feel guilty for wanting minimum contact with my father who has broken my heart

[Depression = 72% of members]

I am here out of a strong desire to heal. I live with my BD father, non-BD mother and younger sibling. I have known my fathers illness only by schizoaffective and recovering self treatment alcoholic. The latest fiasco led to my father becoming paranoid about my mother. In turn leaving and has been gone for two months, hoping she will let him come back. Because of course, as soon as he said he wanted out he then said, it was my mother who kicked him out. This behavior has led all of us BD included to realizing and accepting that we are dealing with BPD. He comes back next week and I don't know if I can actually live with him again, I told them both that at the beginning of this last she-bang. But the reality is I couldn't just ditch my mother and sibling when they were both broken and I feeling irrational for feeling hurt and not strong. It is hard to find balance, between caring for myself and setting healthy boundaries. While also, feeling guilty for wanting to have minimum contact with the BD my father who has broken my heart. Where does the line between healthy boundaries and risking disowning a family member stop and start?

[deirdre]

I am here out of a strong desire to heal. I live with my BD father, non-BD mother and younger sibling. I have known my fathers illness only by schizoaffective and recovering self treatment alcoholic. The latest fiasco led to my father becoming paranoid about my mother. In turn leaving and has been gone for two months, hoping she will let him come back. Because of course, as soon as he said he wanted out he then said, it was my mother who kicked him out. This behavior has led all of us BD included to realizing and accepting that we are dealing with BPD. He comes back next week and I don't know if I can actually live with him again, I told them both that at the beginning of this last she-bang. But the reality is I couldn't just ditch my mother and sibling when they were both broken and I feeling irrational for feeling hurt and not strong. It is hard to find balance, between caring for myself and setting healthy boundaries. While also, feeling guilty for wanting to have minimum contact with the BD my father who has broken my heart. Where does the line between healthy boundaries and risking disowning a family member stop and start?

[Harri]

Hi Dierdra.  Thanks for posting.  I think you will find that a lot of people here can relate to your situation, having already navigated a similar situation or who are still going through it. 

As I am sure you have heard before, the desire to change and heal is the first step to recovery.  Your situation sounds very stressful and I too would be apprehensive about your father moving back.  Has he received any help during the time he was away?  Is there anything he did at his end that would indicate this next time around will be different?  I am trying to get a feel for how the situation will be next week so we can better support and guide you to some excellent resources we have here on this site.
 

But the reality is I couldn't just ditch my mother and sibling when they were both broken and I feeling irrational for feeling hurt and not strong. It is hard to find balance, between caring for myself and setting healthy boundaries.

Having boundaries **is** self-care.  Boundaries are not bad, they help us survive and can help us even thrive in some difficult situations.  I understand your desire to help your mother and brother.  It is admirable but you need to take care of yourself first.  As a first step, sometimes we have to accept/learn/understand that we are allowed to self-care and set boundaries and doing so does not make us bad.

What sort of boundaries have you tried to help you cope with your father?  Are your mother and brother on the same page as you in terms of trying to set boundaries?

Where does the line between healthy boundaries and risking disowning a family member stop and start?

I think it depends on the individual.  I am not trying to be difficult here or avoid your question.  The truth is that I do not know the answer for you.  For me, sometimes having healthy boundaries meant walking away.  I never did go no contact (NC) but I did take breaks from my mother and the rest of my family.  Actually, my mother is the one who went silent on me and I just used it to my advantage by working on myself.  So again, it varies.  We can help you answer that question for yourself as you read and post and ask more questions.  So many here have great insight and can share what worked for them and their own answers to your excellent questions.

I hope you feel free to roam the boards and read and post as you feel the need.  Like I mentioned above, you can do a lot of healing here.  We have a lot of resources we can refer you to as well as we get to know your situation better and as you set your own goals.

[Fie]

Hello Deirdre, welcome !

Where does the line between healthy boundaries and risking disowning a family member stop and start?

This is a very good question and I believe a lot of members, including me, have struggled with this.

If that's ok with you, I will copy paste a passage you posted in another post on here, so that we have a full picture of your situation.

It is hard to financially make it alone, my BD Father who out of fear of losing my "love" in my perception. Always says what will go wrong if I leave and makes sure I know I won't be able to support myself. In some ways it is true, it is really hard to be a young 20 something year old trying to make it alone. Never impossible though, I fear going through the situation you have of having roommates that are as crazy a my family. Jumping out of one chaotic situation that you know all the ins and outs of to one that you don't know all the rules too sounds terrifying.

It is very natural for people in their early twenties to move out of the house. I'm sure some people have mixed feelings when they go, others are relieved, other are scared. But one thing is for sure, it's the normal thing to do. We all go our own way.

Of course it's not an easy thing to do. But do you think that your way of thinking is influenced by your dad's comments ?

When I was small my dad used to threaten they would put me in an institute for children. I believed that. Everything our parents tell us is hard wiring our brains. But what they are telling us is not always in our best interest. Somehow maybe your dad is hoping you won't move out. So he uses everything he can think of to make you stay, also void comments.

You are not obliged to do unnatural things and stay with your parents for the sake of your mum and siblings. Of course you love them. But you *are* not them. Maybe one day, they will leave too. Also, I don't see how you staying will help them. It sure will not make your dad any less BPD.

You can do other things to help them. You can visit them, and take them out on outings.

What do you think ?

[deirdre]

Hi Harri and Fei, thanks for commenting on my post! (I seemed to have accidentally answered both of you in one post and probably missed some questions along the way, still on a learning curve with this site)

    Yes I am very apprehensive about my fathers return, he has done some productive research into BPD and has been reading books. Since he has uBPD he is only just admitting that it is an issue, after he left and we brought it up as a possible cause for our chaos. Since schizoaffective and NPD (not that he would admit that) did no quite cover all the bases of behavior. So yes if self help books are considered help he has gotten to the first step of help but still refuses outside treatment and would rather it never be mentioned as a stipulation of his return.

    Knowing the cause of our pain might help this next round be better but I have lost a lot of trust in him and my parents situation. Me and my mother are both going through Randi Kreger's books as requested by my Dad. I am only halfway through "the Essential Family Guide To Borderline Personality Disorder". I worry that my Dad hopes we can absorb all of the information in less then a months time and apply it, miraculously fixing "our problems". As he also worries that we will judge him harshly for any mistakes made upon his return and relative sanity for the time being. So everyone involved is struggling and anxious.  Shame from my mother for taking him back, fear from my Dad of us abandoning him after he "won" his way back in, unresolved anxiety and hurt from myself. I wish I knew how my sister felt about it all, but she is special needs and delayed in her ability to communicate fully.

    I know my Dad and his ability to be on his best behavior after a blow up, so I am relatively unworried about major happenings, just the small slights of daily life. I am moving hopefully in less than two months (I was hoping to be gone before he came back). So I know his fears and paranoia will be projected onto me non stop for doing something so independent and against his nature of what is comfortable. Despite being told often that my parents want me to move out and live on my own. Those words fall flat when a day later it is all about what will go wrong and how I  will be too careless and wind up broke or dead in a ditch. Even though I try to let the words roll of my back and not settle, a few do and it has been easier having a reprieve from constant fear being projected all day long. But due to my current situation I have 5 days to prepare myself for this and to strengthen myself to be caring and validating yet uncaring and not absorbing. Since moving with 2 weeks notice was not an option for me.

     I haven't quite figured out how to do quotes yet, but Fei you mentioned how you can't see my staying helping. You are right, my staying is in a sense feeding into my mothers ability to stay. My emotional support and childcare given in a way enables her and my fathers unhealthy relationship. Since if something goes wrong well, I am there to support them and pick up the slack. Maybe they can learn how to live healthier lives either together or apart once they have to either lean on each other or find another support system. I never meant to feed into the crazy roller coaster, I just thought I was doing what was right and what had to be done. I remember about 5 years ago there was an "episode" he lost his marbles and my mother broke some bones falling. My sister had to still be cared for so we got PCS hours and at least I got payed a little. But the main memory that dug in deep and hurt me was standing outside with my uBPD Dad. Him telling me that I should quit doing school (I was Home-school and had to be self-motivated 100%) because I was struggling in math and trying to catch up it took too much of my time. My valuable time that in my Dads opinion should go towards focusing 100% on taking care of my parents and sister. Luckily I didn't give in to that request all the way, but I did still provide emotional and physical support to a mother who cried all the time, my unpredictible BD Dad and my high care special needs sister. but the fact that a request like that happened still hurts.  I know that things like that have nuzzled their way into my brain and thought patterns, resulting in anxiety, emotional breakdowns and panic attacks as a result as of late. I also work at home now, as a caregiver and other odds and ends for work and schooling. Working and living in this environment has been unhealthy for myself, I would have done things differently but now I can do things better later on and now.

     I just need to find a balance, I can't fix my family but my emotional and physical health need some work and those are partially if not fully in my own control.
 
     Oh also Harri, I don't know that I have had very solid boundaries. Besides not acquiescing to every paranoid whim and deciding my myself (as best as I could in the situations) what I will and will not do. One of the main boundaries I set and kept was that I wouldn't let others derail me from achieving the academic goals i chose. I don't know if it really counts as a boundary but I feel like it should. 
    

[Harri]

Hi Deirdre.  Wow, that is a lot of stuff to be managing.  I understand what it feels like to be the one looked to to hold the family together emotionally and financially.  It is hard and on top of that you are also helping with your sister (I'm so sorry I magically twisted your word 'sibling' to brother.  Not sure why I did that.  Regardless I do apologize)  

The situation of you being instilled with fear about moving out hits so very close to home for me.  I stayed with my family until I was about 38 (leaving for several years for undergrad and grad school).  The manipulations, instillation of fear and the almost crippling sense of guilt and responsibility was so hard to fight off.  On top of that there were other aspects that kept me tied to 'The Family' (think of The Godfather when you hear those words in your head  ).  Many years later I am still trying to figure out exactly what was going on for me.  To get out, for me, I had to tap into my anger and use it to help me stay firm in my decision to move.  Changing a lifetime of care taking behaviors, enmeshment, parentification, and guilt was and still is the most difficult thing I have ever had to deal with.  It is doable though.  It takes time though and will not happen over night.  Sometimes as we change our role in the family there will be a lot of push-back to get you to resume your usual role.  That push back (called extinction bursts) is to be expected and in a weird way it is a normal/expected response when confronted with changing long standing patterns of behavior.  So I am going to link you to an articles on Boundaries.  At the bottom of the page is a link that says  "Read More" in a green box.  Click that too and read another article on Boundaries that is also very good.  

There are a lot more resources on this site that can help you depersonalize some of your father's behaviors and learn communication strategies that can help *you* to interact with him while remaining compassionate and taking care of yourself.  We have a board titled Library:  Tools and skills workshops that you may want to look through as so you can pinpoint which you would like to focus on in the next week or so.  I don't want to give you 100's of links!  Though there is another one titled Karpman Drama Triangle that you may want to read.  

It sounds to me like you are familiar with the term projection (tho we have articles on that as well! ) and I think your value surrounding your education is excellent.  You had something that was important to you and you made sure you followed through.  After reading a bit more on boundaries we can talk things through if you like.  They can be tricky for me sometimes but we can all brainstorm.    

Those small daily slights you mention can be the most difficult to deal with IMO.  The big outbursts are easy to recognize and easier to deflect.  Like you said, the little slights sort of sneak in and can affect us greatly.  Of course they do!  What helped me was to remember most of what my mom would say was about her, not me and she was simply projecting her fears and biases and anger on me.  I used to picture a protective bubble around myself while repeating over and over 'this is about her not me' and 'she is not even seeing me at this point'.  Would something like that help you?

Deirdre, I hope some of this helps.  If there is something specific you want to work on, post and we can figure things out.  

[peachtree487]

Hi, I don't know your exact circumstances, but wanted to give you some reassurance. You dont have to 'disown' your father, you can still have a relationship if you decide to move out. My sister left home as a teen, still in high school, because of our uBPD mom and the whole dysfunctional lifestyle created by our mom, and ironically, she has a 'better' relationship with our mom than anyone else in our family does. Even though my sister does not openly acknowledge my moms illness, they get along because my mom respects my sister's boundaries more because she wants to see her as much as she can because she lives so far away, and does not know as many details about her life due to being far away. My mom actually picked up and moved to be near my sister years ago, but it did not last, she moved back after a dispute she had with my sisters husband.

So do not worry about settung your boundaries, you have to take care of yourself, and you could end up having a wonderful relationship with your father in the near future, especially with knowing about & acknowledging his illness.

[pbnjsandwich]

I am here out of a strong desire to heal. I live with my BD father, non-BD mother and younger sibling. I have known my fathers illness only by schizoaffective and recovering self treatment alcoholic. The latest fiasco led to my father becoming paranoid about my mother. In turn leaving and has been gone for two months, hoping she will let him come back. Because of course, as soon as he said he wanted out he then said, it was my mother who kicked him out. This behavior has led all of us BD included to realizing and accepting that we are dealing with BPD. He comes back next week and I don't know if I can actually live with him again, I told them both that at the beginning of this last she-bang. But the reality is I couldn't just ditch my mother and sibling when they were both broken and I feeling irrational for feeling hurt and not strong. It is hard to find balance, between caring for myself and setting healthy boundaries. While also, feeling guilty for wanting to have minimum contact with the BD my father who has broken my heart. Where does the line between healthy boundaries and risking disowning a family member stop and start?

Welcome! So glad you're here and willing to share your story with us. Realize, you're not alone.  BPD is a very difficult disorder and often times impossible to live with. The story you told is similar to mine, although my father has been deceased for several years now. Back when I was a teenager, my father made a huge scene during the holidays and my brother had no choice but to kick him out of the house. He lived in a hotel for weeks until my mother allowed him back home.
I'm an adult now with a good understanding of BPD.  When dealing with boundaries, understand that they are a requirement for someone with BPD. They require it, because it gives them a clear sense of limits and when you deal with someone who is BPD and an alcoholic, limits are incredibly important and pave the way into respecting you, not only as a daughter but as a human being. He may not enjoy having a daughter who sets strong limits, but he will, above all, respect you for it.
My father was never happy when I sat him down and told him what my limits were, but he always felt he could talk to me and, to me, that was important. I realized that he wasn't going to be the father I wanted and I'm sure he felt I wasn't going to be the daughter he wanted, but we managed through it the best we could.
Stay close to BPD Family. Ask lots of questions, read, research and lean to us if you need to. ♥

[pbnjsandwich]

Hi, I don't know your exact circumstances, but wanted to give you some reassurance. You dont have to 'disown' your father, you can still have a relationship if you decide to move out. My sister left home as a teen, still in high school, because of our uBPD mom and the whole dysfunctional lifestyle created by our mom, and ironically, she has a 'better' relationship with our mom than anyone else in our family does. Even though my sister does not openly acknowledge my moms illness, they get along because my mom respects my sister's boundaries more because she wants to see her as much as she can because she lives so far away, and does not know as many details about her life due to being far away. My mom actually picked up and moved to be near my sister years ago, but it did not last, she moved back after a dispute she had with my sisters husband.

So do not worry about settung your boundaries, you have to take care of yourself, and you could end up having a wonderful relationship with your father in the near future, especially with knowing about & acknowledging his illness.

Beautifully said! Yes, boundaries are really important and actually make for a better relationship! ♥

[Turkish]

That he has encouraged you to read that book is hopeful, "a blade of green grass" as my therapist once told me.  Randi is a professional member here,  and we expand upon those tools and others developed by other professionals in the links Harri posted. Those links also have discussions by members here and how they were applied: what worked,  what didn't,  etc.

I'm curious about one thing you said.  How did your father break your heart?

[deirdre]

Harri,
Thanks for the links I browsed through them the other day and have been mulling over the information in my head on boundaries. I found the threads of conversations talking about application of turning values into boundaries most helpful. So I have been doing a lot of soul searching about what values I have and how I already apply boundaries in accordance with those. Also what type of values I will need and how to set boundaries with new ones. I think one I need to put into place is my value of time and real communication. The boundary related to that would be figuring out how to kindly bow out of conversations where I am being talked at and not to. This happens with my father but with other people in my life often too and I just haven't figured out how to keep my value of being kind and a good listener. While also not wasting my time and energy on a one sided hour long discussion when I am actually busy and need to be places.

I like your idea about imagining a protective bubble around myself. I think I will have to practice imagining that and hopefully I can put that in place when my dad returns! Maybe that would help me deflect more of the words instead of internalizing and silently simmering in unspent anger. I am just now coming to terms with having anger, I never thought I did since I never outwardly expressed it but on very rare occasions. It seems anger that has been ignored and denied is just as vile as anger that is expressed.

[deirdre]

Hi Peachtree487,
Thank you for your encouragement! It is good to know of other circumstances where distance has helped instead of hindered a relationship with a BPD. I have seen that in my siblings with my non-BD mother even where when they moved out early as teens two of them ended up having great relationships. Even when there was not a good relationship during the time spent living together. I hope that it helps in my case, I think I will have more patience to be affirming and not as easily absorbed in his hysterics. When I am not living in the trenches of it day in and day out that is. But for now I need to learn how to live in the trenches  for a couple more months. The end is in site and I have to hold tight to that.

[deirdre]

Hi pbnjsandwich,
Thanks for the encouragement and sharing your kinship in having gone through similar. I am sorry to hear about your father, also very glad to hear that you seemed to have created a more meaningful relationship with him though. I hope to create a more meaningful relationship with mine and not waste the time I do have with him. I hope I can have to strength the set and enforce boundaries with him as well, sitting down and talking about my boundaries terrifies me. I am glad you reinforced that I really do for his sake and my own need to set boundaries. I need to figure out what they are and how to even sit down and verbalize them to him without breaking down. I am generally a good communicator with people and can set boundaries when I need to (not always when I should, yet). But I tend to end up in an emotional break down crying when I try to actually meaningfully communicate with my dad. Which just confuses him and makes him feel bad and then I shut down. This is something that I need to find a way to work through. Any ideas from your experience?

[deirdre]

Hi Turkish,
I agree that his encouragement to read these books about BPD are a "blade of green grass". I did find the discussion sections about how other members applied the available information and techniques very helpful. I was having trouble seeing the "how" in some of the articles until I read through the discussions.
To answer your question about how my father broke my heart, a life time of small slights/cracks finally shattered. His leaving this last time, though I wanted him to go because I was so done with how he was treating my mother. Still felt him him abandoning me. It felt like he left me and expected me to clean up the mess he made. All while not feeling any hurts because he is ill and I should understand. Illness or not though, things do get taken personally sometimes. All in all, never feeling like I was doing quite good enough, that I had to be just a little bit better. That I would have been better if I was born a better gender. That I could do school better, do relationships better, have  better friends. Through all of that he still gave a surprising amount of affirmations, both my parents did. Yet somehow I still felt like I needed to be more to have him accept me fully and love me. Along with all the times I had to pick up the pieces and never expressed my own feelings.

So in a way my broken heart is a good thing, a good sign. It broke because I finally accepted that I had feelings and that I could be hurt. My superwoman facade finally crumbled in a very personal and emotional way. Even though it is a good thing, I am quite unsure about all of the emotional breakdowns i have had the last couple months. It seems my body has decided it will make up for 20 years of denying them and not having them.

[Tattered Heart]

Looking at your own boundaries is a great place to begin looking at how you are affecting by interactions with your pwBPD (and all people in general).

What would you say is the difference to you between a conversation in which you are being talked at vs talked to?

What physical or psychological feelings do you start to have when you find yourself in a conversation that you are being talked at?

When you are being talked at, how are you dishonoring yourself in these conversations? What self talk is going on inside your head while he talks at you? What fears begin to go through your mind?

How can you honor yourself best in a conversation you are being talked at? And remain empathetic to you father?

[deirdre]

Looking at your own boundaries is a great place to begin looking at how you are affecting by interactions with your pwBPD (and all people in general).

What would you say is the difference to you between a conversation in which you are being talked at vs talked to?

What physical or psychological feelings do you start to have when you find yourself in a conversation that you are being talked at?

When you are being talked at, how are you dishonoring yourself in these conversations? What self talk is going on inside your head while he talks at you? What fears begin to go through your mind?

How can you honor yourself best in a conversation you are being talked at? And remain empathetic to you father?

For the first question, for myself I think the difference is when the other person is talking to me and checking in at least once in awhile to my status as a listener. If I respond to something in the conversation it is processed at least a little bit and responded to. Instead of my response being talked over or the reply not relating to my whole response but maybe a word out of a sentence if that. If there is little regard for me as a listener if turns into a moment of the speaker preaching at instead of conversing with me.

When I am being talked at I tend to start zoning out (my problem not necessarily theirs) about 20 minutes into the "conversation". I tend to feel really guilty when I do notice that I checked out. I get anxiety about responding to the speaker or asking questions, because I assume that my response will be unappreciated, twisted, or ignored. Physically then I usually start fidgeting, my heart starts racing, sweating a bit and sometimes get slight shakes. So then sometimes my internal dialog about the conversation becomes more bitter and sarcastic. This thought process further perpetuates the cycle of me getting talked at because of internal response and anxiety then cause me to shut down and take it instead of doing anything about it and strongly leading the conversation to something two sided and productive. All in all afterwards I feel like even if the topic was interesting that it went 10 minutes too long and I feel a bit bitter and guilty.

By allowing this cycle to happen I am dishonoring my inherent value to be respected and talked to as an adult. I am also belittling all of the work I have done to become not just a good listener but a good communicator. By allowing myself to be talked at I am letting other people know that I don't respect my own intelligence. It also furthers others perceptions that I must just be dull and too shy to talk, thus reinforcing them thinking that I must need to be talked at instead to get my "social points". I think I answered the second part of this question above. Basically I start to become a bitter person and I fear my thoughts and ideas being rejected.

I still don't know how to fix the problem, because I have such deeply ingrained anxiety during these situations. Me walking away would make him feel unheard and that I don't care. Me staying would have to involve me finding a way to assert myself despite my physical and psychological reactions. This also leads to the question of how to be affirming to him when so far when I have tried to validate his opinions and not agree. He immediately takes it as an affront to him and his intelligence that I do not agree with him. This is another layer of anxiety I have on trying to figure out how I can assert myself and be empathetic/validating. To be honest, the way I deal with it is I try my best to just avoid conversations when at all possible. This hurts both of us and our relationship. But I am reinforced by it because I get to avoid all of the anxiety and unpleasant emotions. So here I am answer-less to this very important question/puzzle that I need to figure out.

[Fie]

Me walking away would make him feel unheard and that I don't care. Me staying would have to involve me finding a way to assert myself despite my physical and psychological reactions. 

I personally don't see how you can stay while being verbally abused / talked at. Sometimes it's better to take a little step aside in such cases. How about 'I don't really feel comfortable being talked at like that, I will come back in a little while' ?
This way you are not saying 'you are being mean' or so, since you are bringing a 'I feel' message.   You are also immediately assuring him stating that you will come back.
It's actually very ok to have your own needs and wants... .is this something you are struggling with sometimes ?  You seem to be focused a lot on the feelings of your dad, but you have feelings too I imagine... you are not a robot !

To be honest, the way I deal with it is I try my best to just avoid conversations when at all possible.
This hurts both of us and our relationship

Does it ? Or do you think it does ?
Some people do not need to have a lot of conversation all of the time. As a woman, I notice I do . But I also see that a lot of people, maybe especially men, are not like that... they 'do stuff'.
Sometimes it amazes me seeing two male friends meeting up and all they do is 'hang out'. At first side, not a lot of meaningful things happen. But for them, it's meaningful...   Would you see you and your dad 'hang out' doing some activity together ? No idea what exactly... .play pool ? Go for a walk ? Practice a sport together ?

[Harri]

Hi again Deirdre.  Tattered Heart asked some great questions that can help you focus and determine just how you want to define your value and establish boundaries.  Boundaries are tough too establish.  That commonly goes hand in hand with being raised by a mentally ill / dysfunctional person.  Part of your difficulty of solving this puzzle may be this next part here:

... .so far when I have tried to validate his opinions and not agree. He immediately takes it as an affront to him and his intelligence that I do not agree with him.

Okay, I understand what you are saying here, I think.  The thing is you can't let his reactions to what you do define your intentions, meaning, or who you are.  He will respond the way he responds.  When you validate while disagreeing with him, is it really an affront or is that the way he perceives it?  Don't let another person's reactions define you. 

Now, all that is easy for me to say.  I know that anxiety and fear, the shutting down, the guilt and resentment, the sweating and shaking hands.  It feels horrible.  Yet all of those feelings are perfectly understandable when someone is showing you disrespect and when no matter how hard you try they take offense to what you say. 

His reactions are his.  All you can do is try your best.  So often we twist ourselves all around trying to find just the right words and tone and some perfect way of saying something and none of it matters sometimes.  He will react the way he reacts.  Let him.  That is his stuff.  Speaking up and saying something simple like Fie recommended (I do not like being talked at like that so I am going to step away for a bit) is a good place to start.  It is not rude or demeaning to him.  It is not cruel.  It may not be what he wants to hear but that is for him to deal with.  You can't control his reaction(s).  It is not your job to regulate his emotions or fix things for him.

But I am reinforced by it because I get to avoid all of the anxiety and unpleasant emotions.

As for your own reactions, that will take a bit of time and repetition to lessen the anxiety.  Avoiding anxiety is not a solution (generally).  There is no rush, you do not have to change the way you respond over night but you can't keep doing what you have been doing, right?  Avoiding the anxiety and unpleasant emotions has not helped and as a matter of fact have hurt you.  You are worth so much more that that. 

I am going to challenge you a bit.  Yes, you get to avoid the unpleasant emotions but what else are you avoiding by doing what you have always done?

What do you think?  Does what I have said apply for your situation?  Lets keep talking this through. 

[deirdre]

I personally don't see how you can stay while being verbally abused / talked at. Sometimes it's better to take a little step aside in such cases. How about 'I don't really feel comfortable being talked at like that, I will come back in a little while' ?

I will have to try this and see if I can make it work. It sounds so easy, yet when I think about doing that I feel sick to my stomach. Part of me says I would just mull over the conversation until I came back. But then again I do that anyways even if I don't walk away. Maybe it would give me a chance to actually come up with something to say back and then say it. I learned about the use of "I" instead of "you" statement about 4 years ago when my parents did therapy all about my Dads verbal abuse. I still can't quite wrap my head around how changing "you" statements to "I" statements can work. I guess I need to practice the theory more to prove it to myself that it does work.

Does it ? Or do you think it does ?
Some people do not need to have a lot of conversation all of the time. As a woman, I notice I do . But I also see that a lot of people, maybe especially men, are not like that... they 'do stuff'.
Sometimes it amazes me seeing two male friends meeting up and all they do is 'hang out'. At first side, not a lot of meaningful things happen. But for them, it's meaningful...   Would you see you and your dad 'hang out' doing some activity together ? No idea what exactly... .play pool ? Go for a walk ? Practice a sport together ?

I guess maybe it doesn't because what I want fixed, can't be fixed. I think the fix I want is a dad who doesn't have communication problems related to his illnesses. Because in reality I relate best to people by just hanging out. I need and like conversation sometimes, but don't have the strong need to talk to people like a lot of females naturally do. I usually even with close friends feel most content when we are just "hanging out" doing things together, conversation is optional. I think my issue with wanting more communication with my dad is that I feel like he expects it more. But he might not either, I can't even begin to guess what he expects from me or not. But I guess all the time anyways. Your idea of finding things I can just "do" with him is a good one, the best times I have had with him have been times we have just done something together. Going out fishing with him or working on cars with him have been the good times.
I guess I need to change my expectations of myself and my relationship with my Dad. I seem to want to make it something that it is not. When really I should be working on making what it "is" better. Maybe I have a skewed expectation of myself that I should talk to him and other people more just because it is expected. Not because it is something I need and am lacking. This is something I have tried to fix in myself for a long time.

[Turkish]

Going out fishing with him or working on cars with him have been the good times.

This maybe all that he is capable of giving,  yet it may be his way of connecting because he knows nothing else. And it is something rather than nothing,  yes?  What do you think?

[deirdre]

The thing is you can't let his reactions to what you do define your intentions, meaning, or who you are.  He will respond the way he responds.  When you validate while disagreeing with him, is it really an affront or is that the way he perceives it?  :)on't let another person's reactions define you.  

I try hard to remind myself of this, I know it logically isn't an affront to him when I disagree. It is my right to have my own opinions. I still fear his reactions anyways, I have and do express a lot of my differences with him. But I still have that deeply seeded want to have his approval. I need to find a way to come to terms with the fact that I may never get the type of approval from him that I want. Coming to terms with that might help me not take his reactions so personally.

 
I am going to challenge you a bit.  Yes, you get to avoid the unpleasant emotions but what else are you avoiding by doing what you have always done?

What do you think?  :)oes what I have said apply for your situation?  Lets keep talking this through.  

That is challenging. Because I have been avoiding a of things in a lot of ways. I am avoiding unpleasant emotions yes. I am avoiding good things as well, like giving him the chance to know his daughter better. Since by his recent comments he doesn't actually know me, but that is also due to his thought process being twisted. But really I think a main thing I am avoiding, is when I don't respond to him I am not giving him any ammo or words that he can throw back at me later. does it matter did? Not really but I care still anyways. I do know that I have a problem with not wanting to share anything with people anymore because of my fear of people being more capable of hurting me if they knew who I really was inside. This fear comes from the dealing with my Father and family mostly. This just means I have to work harder to overcome those and respect myself and my opinions anyways.

[deirdre]

This maybe all that he is capable of giving,  yet it may be his way of connecting because he knows nothing else. And it is something rather than nothing,  yes?  What do you think?

It is something that I have appreciated. It is what he is most capable of giving, since some days he is better at connecting through words then others. My reactions to his verbal communication attempts are skewed and scared now even with it is a good day. The days of just being together doing something more meaningful then watching tv (the family evening "quality time". He always wanted me to work with him more and help out in the yard. As a teen I never thought of it as his attempt at quality time. Looking back I think it was his attempt at trying to connect with me. I avoided manual labor as often as I could though, as a typical teenager in that regard. I saw it more as his way of mocking my lack of strength and trying to make me as strong and as helpful as the son he wanted me to be, instead of the daughter he got instead. This could still be part of it, but maybe it really was just an attempt to find a way to be a better father and connect with me more.

[deirdre]

Turkish
Still processing your comment mentally. I thought about the fact that he always felt like the greatest thing his Dad my grandpa gave him was a good work ethic. Since he was never emotionally their for my dad either. Because of this he didn't learn how to give emotional support it wasn't shown to him. So he has tried in his own way to connect the way he learned and was taught. Since he took away a good work ethic as his best asset he I think wanted to pass that along as well and connect through imparting a family tradition to me since he couldn't with a son. He probably felt like it would be the best thing he could give him. Which is also probably why I feel like I couldn't add up since I was never too keen on that kind of work, since I am much more of an artist type.

[Turkish]

. I avoided manual labor as often as I could though, as a typical teenager in that regard. I saw it more as his way of mocking my lack of strength and trying to make me as strong and as helpful as the son he wanted me to be, instead of the daughter he got instead. This could still be part of it, but maybe it really was just an attempt to find a way to be a better father and connect with me more

Maybe there was some of the former,  but I think you are saying there could have been some of the latter, and I would add "given his limitations viewpoint."

In the present, do you think there might be a chance to connect, realizing who he is, while accepting who you are?

Despite his hurtfulness, I sense that he does love you,  in his way. You haven't described a deadbeat dad from my view, despite your hurt and his likely obliviousness.

[deirdre]

In the present, do you think there might be a chance to connect, realizing who he is, while accepting who you are?

I won't discount their being a chance, I hope here is a chance. But in the present I feel like such an emotional mess that I don't know if I will be capable personally of connecting with him, even if he tried. Not until I heal, move away for awhile and then come back and try again. Maybe after he comes back tomorrow I will find a new found strength to try to mend my relationship with him as well as myself. Currently I only have enough strength to feebly attempt fixing myself.

I think I have a better understanding now then I did two months ago on his mental state and my own. I've realized more realities about him, but I also realized a lot of realities about myself. I realized that I do have limitations, I had to push my limitations to the limit to finally accept that I had them. Because I pushed my limitations so far though, I don't know how quickly my emotional responses and state of mind will bounce back.

[Turkish]

It's ok to give yourself a break and space. It really is ok.  We will support you here.  

[deirdre]

Despite his hurtfulness, I sense that he does love you,  in his way. You haven't described a deadbeat dad from my view, despite your hurt and his likely obliviousness.

He does love me I know that, even if it isn't the way I wanted to be loved. I am grateful to have that love anyways. Despite all the hurt and problems that come with having a father who suffers from sometimes crippling mental illness. He always has done his best to be far from a deadbeat Dad, at least in my life time. I have a lot to be grateful for since he did make sure he provided for us and was capable of keeping a job long enough to be able to retire. Though that turned to isolation which turned to mental health deteriorating. So that was a catch 22. Anyways I am getting off topic, the last part of your statement about his "likely obliviousness" I feel is very fitting to my situation and him.

It's ok to give yourself a break and space. It really is ok.  We will support you here. 

I appreciate that, it doesn't always feel okay. Glad to have support in this journey

[Harri]

Hi Deirdre.  It is hard when we realize our parent loves us but the love was not what we needed. 

How are you doing today?  I know he is back today so I am concerned and sending you very positive energy.  Don't forget to breathe. 

It's ok to give yourself a break and space. It really is ok.  We will support you here. 

Yes.

[deirdre]

Harri
Thank you for the reminder to breath, deep breaths are good at this point.
He got back yesterday, but I had to work and am now staying with a friend until next week. I have to go home and see him tomorrow, for work. I haven't heard how it is going with him back or where he is at emotionally etc. I am nervous about going home tomorrow and seeing him. I am very unsure how I will react, with as many emotional break down I have been having. I am worried I am just going to get there and not be able to hold it together. Because I pridefully don't want him to see me breaking down and think I am weak. Also since I need to be able to hold it together enough to get work down while I am there. A very small part of me is worried about how he will behave, a big part of me is worried about how I will. Considering for the past two months I haven't really spoken to him and I walk out of the room when my mom is talking to him and has him on speaker phone, because I just haven't been able to handle it.
On a really happy note! I got accepted into a program that starts in a couple months and am hoping to move cross country in about a month to get set up before that. So I really need to keep in sight that I don't have to live with him for more then a month more. That way maybe I won't be so hyper-sensitive waiting for the next terrible episode to happen.

[Harri]

Dierdre, give yourself permission to just Be.  Do your best when you see him, but allow yourself to Be.  If that means being angry, sad, crying, happy, indifferent, cold, allow it.  There is no wrong in this.  His reaction does not define the value of your response.  I can't say that enough.  Holding things in is what has led to your emotional overload.  Obviously do not spew things out if you are angry, though do not hold your anger in either, but I do not get that vibe from you.  I get a lot of sadness, compassion and self-flagellation from you (perhaps your anger turned inward?).  It is the latter that I am concerned about. 

Remember to keep breathing.  Remember to try the protective bubble (or whatever variation works for you) and just let yourself Be with a capital B. 

When you see him it may be a huge relief you know.  After avoiding and not seeing him for two months or so, the anxiety builds.  If you can, try to see the visit as a good thing, a relief or sorts.  Each time you see him and interact you get practice in feeling your feelings, allowing yourself to Be and learning new ways to interact.  It will be hard and sure you will feel anxious just like with anything else that is new.  It gets easier after time and practice.  You do not have to be perfect the first time or even the tenth. 

Congrats on being accepted to the new program and the potential move.  What an exciting time!  That really is great news.  Yes, there is an end in sight plus everything you learn will help you when you move.

Hang in there Deirdre.  We've got your back.

[deirdre]

Thank you Harri for your encouragement and advice!
 
It went really well seeing him yesterday, I woke up in a good mood that morning. Not full of the anxiety and tears that I had been waking up with. Going at the situation with a brighter outlook helped so much, I reminded myself the day before and day of what you said.
I kept giving myself permission to just Be and imagining myself in a protective bubble. His behavior didn't matter, though slightly frustrating at times. When he would get short tempered and act like his normal self, I would just remind myself it wasn't about me, its about him.

Having gotten the initial visit over with it is a major relief. I know it won't continue to be easy, moving and packing is stressful there will be a lot of struggles this next couple months.

But today I will just Be even when Being means being content sometimes happy, sad, pissed, whatever comes. Today contentment is fabulous. I have struggled with as a side effect of denying a lot of my negative emotions I also then denied many good emotions. Showing happiness at times has been as hard as showing tears. I am a work in progress, I just hope to continue progressing.

[once removed]

hi deirdre, i want to join the others and say

i have a few someones in my life that are big time talkers and hard to exit a conversation with. i react very similarly, i zone out, i get fidgety, irritated, etc. social cues dont work. i can literally be exiting the room, in another room, facing the other way hanging out of the room and it continues 

i got two pieces of advice from others, and ill share them.

1. mindfully, actively pay attention to your feelings around these situations and the discomfort they cause. when we learn to do this, we can learn more about ourselves, how we react, how we might react otherwise.

2. start practicing exiting conversations. find what works for you. "excuse me for a moment", "youll have to excuse me", head for the bathroom, whatever. likely, this will be uncomfortable at first. likely, though not necessarily, youll find that it goes just fine, and it should get easier from there.

[Fie]

start practicing exiting conversations

That's such a good idea and counterintuitive for children of BPD !
I tried it some time ago with my BPD mother and it was very effective. She was baiting me and I suddenly got it... .so I said : 'I have to go to the toilet, let's discuss this in a minute'.  She looked very confused that I abruptly ended the conversation but said nothing. When I came back, she didn't raise the topic again.

[Harri]

Hi Deirdre!  I am so glad the first encounter went well for you.  I was hoping it would so that you can build on positive experiences (I mean positive in terms of you and your responses and being okay with whatever happens).  My T is all about building on positive interactions with me and I find it works well to increase my confidence and decrease my anxiety.  Managing those tow things makes a world of difference.

Protective bubbles are awesome!  Visual imagery is so helpful to me.  It is just another sense I can use to change my programming.  Glad it helped you.  Once removed and Fie both offered great strategies for exiting conversations gracefully (despite the bathroom!  LOL) So simple yet effective. 

Once removed mentioned mindfulness and I think he is so right.  We have an article titled Radical Acceptance for Family Members  Radical acceptance includes mindfulness.  Here is an excerpt:

Mindfulness is “allowing” experiences rather than suppressing or avoiding them. It is the intentional process of observing, describing, and participating in reality non-judgmentally, in the moment, and with effectiveness. Ethereal as it may sound, Linehan's methods have been independently studied by clinical researchers and shown to be effective.

This is a great aide to getting accustomed to feelings especially after having been shut off and then so overwhelmed (understandably so!) by them. 

Feelings just are.  Feelings are allowed.  Feelings need to be felt.  Feelings are healthy and should not be suppressed (nor should they always be expressed either). 

Just Be.

 

[Fie]

(despite the bathroom!  LOL)

Hahaha Harri I always like your sense of humor   

[deirdre]

Once Removed Thank you for joining the conversation and adding your advice! It is quite the balance to strike being a non-judgmental observer, while also feeling my emotions. I am generally better at the first one, but I am working on it. I love utilizing mindfulness practices, I need to remind myself to use them more. Maybe start re-reading some books I have read. I took a class all about inter-personal relationships in hopes that it would help, it did. But I still wasn't able to tackle my inter-personal relationship with close family, that is a challenge that I am ready for now though. But class was very centered on mindfulness and well done it was a lot like being in group therapy haha.

Speaking of that I really need to find a support group, have any of you tried NAMI? I was also recommended Al-Anon because of the past alcohol problems. I would like a little feedback about them, though I know every group dynamic will be different. I am off to read the radical acceptance article now.           

[deirdre]

Okay, so already the beginning of this radical acceptance article speaks to me.

We live in a trance of unworthiness. It’s a trance because the pain of KNOWING the unworthy feelings is rather deep. So we keep really busy, so there’s no time to sit and know. We embark on self-improvement projects to try to be good enough. We avoid risks to avoid more pain. We withdraw from knowing our current experience.

The beginning of this last episode I tried really hard to just keep busy, I even got my 4th part time job. I didn't go into it thinking I was avoiding, but two weeks in I realized what I was doing. Much to the chagrin on my employer I quit only a little over a month into the job. Because I didn't have time and I knew that I had to make time to face my situation, not avoid it. Not everyone understood why I would quit a good job I just started, when it would make me more money then the other part time jobs I have. But that is okay, not everyone will and can understand. Becoming all work/school etc, to avoid catastrophic situations, is a coping strategy I have had for a long time that I am trying to break.

Deep down I think besides avoiding the situation, I wanted to prove that I was worthy. That I could make enough money to survive in my Dad's eyes, I realize nothing I do can actually accomplish what I want there. Because I will always either make too little money, or make to much and then I have to pay taxes which is almost at the level of being a "sin" in his eyes. No-win situations I need to accept and move on. Then I can focus on situations that will be good for me, without the fear of falling short in other peoples opinions.

[deirdre]

fei and once removed, thank you for giving me examples of exiting strategies! It helps a lot to have examples, the bathroom one. Honestly is great, because that is a situation that won't be as easily twisted as me abandoning the conversation. When nature calls it is important haha.

[once removed]

so hows it going at the moment deirdre? have you had an opportunity to practice new strategies or techniques?

[deirdre]

once removed
I feel like I haven't gotten very far with implementing anything. But I think that is also my expecting more from myself in a month then I should. I am doing a lot of self-reflecting, trying to be aware of my emotions when they happen. The problem with being aware of myself is I am now extra aware of all the physical pain I am in, which I guess is a good thing in some ways but it doesn't feel like it right now. I am working on doing some meditative breathing and trying to relax my muscle groups that way to help, which should help my mental state too.

I am realizing that my non-BPD mother irritates me more then my nBPD father at this point. It's not really a conscious choice but I notice all of my muscles tensing when she is talking to me a lot of the time. Which in turn puts me in a more irritable mood. I feel guilty for my reactions to her, but I think it is because she is the one who had the choice. It was her choice to let my father come back and he his some old self (in my opinion) since he has been back (I didn't expect otherwise, but he is usually on even better behavior after a blow up). We are all trying to reintegrate back into the family dynamic, seeing what has changed and what hasn't, checking out boundaries. I think I am just upset that my mother lets her self by choice continue to be a victim, again. When I know I am powerless to their choices and I am trying my best to be okay with that. It still puts my younger sibling at risk though, because there seems to be a belief in my household that abuse of a parent doesn't hurt a parent, especially if the kid isn't physically abused.

I don't want to feel angry or bitter towards her for making the choice she made. I guess I also have to realize that even if she doesn't have BPD I still have to accept her flaws too. Its the pattern of abuse and why people go through it over and over again for a significant other. I seem to just have more grace for my father, because I've always known he is ill. So I am at a point where I feel like I need to in a way have less grace for my uBPDf and more grace for my non-BPDm. There is a lot going on in my head right now but this is what is at the front of it all in this moment.

[Harri]

Hi Deirdre. 

I think it is a good thing to realize you are angry with your mother too.  It is not uncommon for those of us with disordered parents to realize our anger is often greater towards the non parent than it is towards the disordered one.  Yes, your mother has made choices that affect not just her and your dad but you and your sibling as well.  Your mom is caught up in her own issues unfortunately.  I always think of the BPD/Non relationship as two people having interlocking wounds.  No matter how disordered and dysfunctional their relationship may seem on the surface there is a mutuality there that keeps them going back for more. 

Unfortunately a lot of people are unaware of how emotional and verbal abuse can affect kids.  You often hear on other boards that the kids are okay because the rage is not directed towards them or there is no physical abuse.  How to explain that it is the stress and tension in the house, or the unspoken emotions, and the hostile or cold looks passed between the parents that cause so much damage.  How to explain that the tone used can cut deeply?  Or that yelling and fighting can be very scary even when it is not directed towards a child?

You *can* feel anger towards your mothers choices.  It is actually a healthy response to the situation.  Yes, have compassion and care about her but that does not mean you can't feel anger and frustration.  Don't fight it.  Don't act on it but just sit with the anger, recognize it without judging and let it go.  Don't push it away.

I think you are doing very well Deirdre and I am so glad you continue to post here.  It really does help you and other people who read your posts.

 

[Fie]

I feel guilty for my reactions to her, but I think it is because she is the one who had the choice.

I think you are feeling something that is very normal and natural. I think I would feel the same. Angry and also frustrated. A feeling of 'it's not fair !'

And it *is* not fair ! Nor your father, nor your mother, are treating you very fairly - and I'm not saying they are doing it on purpose, or with an intention to hurt.

[deirdre]

Harri
Thank you for helping to validate my feelings about the situation. There are just so many emotions going on for me right now, quite the roller coaster. But anger is definitely one of them and atleast I can admit it now, I never could before. Now to stop judging my anger, that is a hard one.

Fie
Thank you Fie, it does feel like an "it's not fair" situation. I know they don't do it purposefully, still hard not to take it personally though.

[Fie]

still hard not to take it personally though.

Why are you pushing yourself to not take it personal ? How can you not ?
You are only just now allowing your anger. In my humble opinion... you have every right to take it personal. Emotions are what they are. Once you will have fully lived through them, there will be plenty of time for telling yourself 'they didn't do it on purpose' and there will be plenty of time for forgiveness, if you want that.

Don't you think anger can be cathartic ? Just my two cents...

[Harri]

Now to stop judging my anger, that is a hard one.

Yes, it is hard and one I am still working on so I can't even share what worked for me.  Anger just is right?  I have all sorts of bad associations with the word anger.  Loss of control, abuse, fear, terror.  I am not afraid of other peoples anger though.  I am (was?) afraid of my own.  It is a part of me and I realized the more I ran from it or even tried to talk myself out of it the worse it got.  I do seem to be getting a better handle on it as I accept the fact that I was helpless, a victim, and I am worth far more than what I was given.  As I work to accept that I have inherent value, I become more at ease with being angry and expressing it.  That in turns seems to allow me to release it without judging my value as a human being for even having it. 

I am always fascinated with anger and how we talk about it sometimes.  So many are afraid of anger and avoid it, but it seems that is the worst thing you can do at least IMNSHO. 

Fie, I really like your question: 

Why are you pushing yourself to not take it personal ? How can you not ?

Indeed, how can you not.  We talk a lot about depersonalizing the behaviors of the BPD so we can detach and begin to respond rather than react in the same old dysfunctional ways but I think that is different from not taking their choices and actions personally.  It was personal when my mother brainwashed me to give up all chances of having my own 'normal' life.  It was personal when she sexually abused me.  It was personal when she raged at me and beat me down with her words and accusations and delusions.  It was personal when my father watched and chose not to act.

Sorry.  I made this all about me!    

[deirdre]

Fie and Harri
Wow, the point about it being okay to take it personally. Kind of mind blowing, trying to wrap my head around the difference between depersonalizing and taking things personal. I guess I do have a lot of bad associations with anger, when it is a very natural emotion. Just hard to break the habit of feeling like it is "bad" to feel angry.
Fie that is a good point about anger being cathartic, it has been for me in the past. But then I also have the conflict of feeling like it is wrong of me.
Thank you both for helping to point out the fallacy of some of my thought processes. I have a lot of evaluating to do.