Treading Water...

[mama-wolf]

Hi all... .I haven't posted much in the past few weeks, mainly just popping in and leaving a few replies here and there.  I haven't  really felt like I have had much to share, since right now I very much feel like I'm just treading water in my own r/s with uBPDw.   Or maybe slogging through mud would be more accurate.

She's continuing with her DBT, and I have started seeing some results at home as far as how she is acknowledging the need to give me space to deal with my own emotions.  I still sense a very strong need from her for my emotional support, and while she has verbally referenced my emotional burnout, she clearly struggles with a reluctance to accept what that actually means as far as my capacity to help her meet her emotional needs.

For myself, I know I continue dealing with the ongoing anxiety (situational, not generalized) of being 99% certain our marriage is over but not being able to actually do anything about it yet.  We continue working with a couples T, though I'm starting to think the couples T sees this probably isn't going to work out.  At the very least, she provides us with a safe environment to try to discuss very sensitive topics... .especially the ones that we seem to be gridlocked on, which spark massive arguments at home.

We're headed out for a trip to Disney this coming weekend.  It'll be just the two of us, to celebrate her upcoming 40th birthday.  She loves Disney and wanted a chance to go as just grown-ups, not chasing kids, not worrying about how long we were out or making sure they got enough rest, etc.  I agreed to the trip since I had a big trip of my own last year for my 40th.  From her perspective, I got a trip so she should get one too.  Plus when we went 1.5 years ago with our kids, we brought my mom along and uBPDw and I basically argued the whole time.  So I sensed this was also her attempt to make up for the family vacation that was partially ruined (in large part because my mom was with us).   At least I really enjoy Disney myself, even if I don't feel like we should be spending the money.

I'm pretty sure we'll be able to have a good time since we get along pretty well when removed from the day-to-day stresses of life.  I'm just sad that it's in the middle of everything else that we're going through, and concerned there will be some subconscious (or conscious) pressure from her for this trip to "fix" our relationship.  I'm determined to make the trip as positive as possible, but also have to make sure I have some boundaries in place. 

My T wanted me to bring up my concerns in session with our couples T, which I did on Friday.  So at least the concerns are on the table, but I also want to make sure (per my T's recommendation)  that I have opportunities to get some space if I needed.  I floated the idea of going for a run a couple times while we're there, which uBPDw didn't like very much at all.  Nevermind the fact that I'm trying to exercise more in general (self care) and also training for my first sprint triathlon in June... .she focuses more on the fact that I didn't go running on my bday trip back in October.  I'm going to stick to my guns on that one, but it suggests to me that any time I might want to get away on my own even for just a quiet drink at the bar will be very poorly received.

Once the trip is over, I'm still stuck for various reasons.  She's still building her new business, which will start to bear fruit soon, but that will depend on her motivation and how well she continues driving it forward.  We have a lot of debt to deal with, which could really hurt my chances of qualifying to buy out her interest in our house.  It just sucks all around, and all I can do is tread water until income picks up and we get closer to summer.

Thanks for reading... .
mw

[Lucky Jim]

I floated the idea of going for a run a couple times while we're there, which uBPDw didn't like very much at all.  Nevermind the fact that I'm trying to exercise more in general (self care) and also training for my first sprint triathlon in June... .

Hey mw, You don't need her permission to take a run on your vacation, so I suggest you just take that run when you feel like it.  Waiting around for your BPD SO to agree to let you go running is likely to be a thankless vigil.  You're the Captain of your Ship, not her.

LJ

[mama-wolf]

You're the Captain of your Ship, not her.

Thanks LJ!  Yes, I will be running at least once, hopefully twice.  And I have a feeling I'll need to find other ways to take a breather, too.

[Lucky Jim]

Thanks LJ!  Yes, I will be running at least once, hopefully twice.  And I have a feeling I'll need to find other ways to take a breather, too.

Sounds like a plan, mama-wolf.  It's crucial, in my view, to recharge your batteries by taking time out from your BPD SO.  I didn't do that very well and ended up driving myself into the ground, which was no fun.

In my experience, one has to forge ahead and "do" meaningful things (e.g., taking a run, having a drink at the bar), without permission from one's BPD SO, because that permission is unlikely to be forthcoming.  Sometimes this requires a ":)amn the Torpedoes" approach, but it's worth it!

LJ

[Red5]

Good Morning Mama Wolf!

I do not know if you are into Tom Petty, but I loved these lyrics, and thought I would share;

This one's for me, this one's for me
Not for anyone else, I need it you see
I threw all I had into the sea
Now I want a little back, this one's for me

Lover I found the mistakes I've made
Will follow me down into my grave
So much has gone by, so many to please
Well this one I'll keep, this one's for me

And you don't even know what you got
'Til it's walking away
Yeah, you don't even know what you had
'Til it laughs in your face

Some other time, some other day
We'll sing this again some other way
So much has gone by, don't know where to start
Well this one I'll keep here in my heart

And you don't even know what you want
'Til it's walking away
Yeah, you don't even know what you had
'Til it laughs in your face

This one's for me, this one's for me
Not for anyone else, I need it you see
I threw all I had into the sea
Now I want a little back, this one's for me

And you don't even know what you've got
'Til it's walking away
Yeah, you don't even know what you had
'Til it laughs in your face

Best Regards, Red5

[mama-wolf]

Thanks, Red5... .

She stunned the hell out of me this evening... .in a good way, but it also leaves me feeling SO conflicted!

We went over an update of the trip itinerary, since she had been making some updates to a few of our reservations.  Those updates include the fact that she found out about a Sunday morning Beignet Fun Run that she signed us (both!) up for.  AND an immersive VR Star Wars experience/ride at Disney Springs on Monday, called Secrets of the Empire.

Now, she doesn’t run, and the length of the fun run is half of what I run for a typical workout... .but she says she’s fine walking it while I run a double-loop.

And she has enjoyed the latest installments, but she’s not nearly the Star Wars (and all-around sci-fi) geek that I am, so it says something that she actively sought out and arranged the experience for us.

Ugh—it can be so hard to remind myself that this is not the day-to-day uBPDw that I have known for years and years.  This is uBPdw excited about a vacation, and looking for ways to repair/solidify our damaged relationship.  I do think she’s genuinely happy for the joy that I’ll get from these things, but I also know there is supposed to be a price to pay.  At least, there always has been... .and I really don’t look forward to the discussion when she comes to collect.

Or am I being unfair?

[formflier]

  At least, there always has been... .and I really don’t look forward to the discussion when she comes to collect.

Or am I being unfair?

What would Yoda say to you?

Listen... .enjoy yourself... .there is not going to be a price to pay.  Seriously... .going forward you are Han Solo.

Whenever she wants to collect... .she can be Greedo.

https://youtu.be/la7uuFsCIrg

Seriously... .did Han get all emotional?  Did Greedo get under his skin? 

Let her think you owe her all kinds of stuff... .you do your own thing.  Let her connect the dots... .or not.

FF

[mama-wolf]

Seriously... .going forward you are Han Solo.

Whenever she wants to collect... .she can be Greedo.

Ha!  Thanks for the smile this morning, FF.  And I appreciate the general message as well.  I think I have been bracing myself for major conflict and emotional breakdown, and am really trying to step back and just enjoy the trip.

mw

[formflier]

So... .what is my general message? 

How might that change your approach to the future... ?

FF

[mama-wolf]

So... .what is my general message? 

I'd say it's to do what I want to do/enjoy the experience and not take on ownership of any feelings she may have about it.  To recognize that she can't create a debt that I don't agree to, and she can't force me to "pay" on that perceived debt.

mw

[formflier]

I'd say it's to do what I want to do/enjoy the experience and not take on ownership of any feelings she may have about it.  To recognize that she can't create a debt that I don't agree to, and she can't force me to "pay" on that perceived debt.

mw

That's all good stuff... .

I was hoping to get you to think about bigger picture things... .and tie it into Han (seriously).

Han runs with some interesting characters... .you would think that would cause him a great deal of stress... .you would think he would worry about it... .a lot.

Does he?

Han strikes me as a very "in the moment" guy that is confident in his ability to move himself forward... .I don't see him worrying much about the rest of the world (ok... .when it really... .really really matters... .he does the right thing for others... but that is rare)

So... .instead of worrying about all the horrors that others will do to him... .he just moves through life and acts on whatever is presented to him.

Let's tie this into what you are facing now.  There is obviously a lot of worry about a "debt" you are building up and how bad it's going to be when you have to pay that debt.  I mean... it's going to suck... .  I mean... .she's mean.  She has fangs... .  And a blaster... .and Jedi mind tricks... .  And flying monkeys... .and... .her skin is green... and we know that green skin people are bad... .Did I mention she is mean to me... .not like mean... .I mean... .mean mean... .it's horrible... .whenever she decides to cash in the debt... it's going to ruin my whole day... .which will ruin my week... .which... .now that I think about it will ruin my month... .so why even try anyway... .I'm so screwed... .

Seriously... .would Han ever have that train of thought?

So... .with that train of thought... .when she actually comes to cash in the debt... .you have been pre-programmed to see all the bad stuff... .and let's assume he is a bit grumpy... .it will validate all the horror you have built up for so long... .and you will react to your thoughts... .versus what actually happened. 

Kaboom... .

What I recommend is that you relax a bit... enjoy things.  When Greedo shows up... .be a bit shocked... .quizzical perhaps... .debt... .pay you?  Huh?  Goodness Greedo... .I'm going to have to think about this for a while... .this is really strange.

Instead of blasting Greedo... you slip out and let Greedo do whatever Greedo does... .you go enjoy life.

Done consistently Greedo will start to understand that threats don't work... .debts don't work.

Either way... you are much happier and much more relaxed.


FF

[Red5]

She stunned the hell out of me this evening... .in a good way, but it also leaves me feeling SO conflicted!

Ugh—it can be so hard to remind myself that this is not the day-to-day uBPDw that I have known for years and years. 

This is uBPdw excited about a vacation, and looking for ways to repair/solidify our damaged relationship. 

I do think she’s genuinely happy for the joy that I’ll get from these things, but I also know there is supposed to be a price to pay. 

At least, there always has been... .and I really don’t look forward to the discussion when she comes to collect.

Or am I being unfair?

Good Morning Mama Wolf,

Hope all is well in your grid square !

Cool, we are all rabid sci-fi fans, that’s pretty cool !

The phenomena of BPD and “gifting”… this can be treacherous waters to navigate as we all know, it comes down to… I guess”… how we as “nons” choose to accept, interact, and handle these situations.

We must always remember that the pw/BPD has this issue with “processing” their thoughts and emotions… as in if they do not get the appropriate and perceived response from the non, then the non can then stand the ___ by, black and white, all or nothing, no processing,

I too am in a period of “gifting”, as I posted in another thread, I just “RTB” (return to base) from a week long work trip, and I was punished for it before, and after I had left, and on the eve of my return, I was granted a “furlough”, and was split white (Knight) again  ?

No explanations were given for the “treatment”, other than she said she was “furious” with me, so fast forward to day eleven of the up-cycle, I am back to getting sandwiches, soup in my lunch bucket, and all sorts of affection, hugs and kisses (on demand by her)… ordered off to bed with her at 21:30 hours each evening, and promises of never ending honey-do lists on the weekends, life is good at the moment,

However, I am well aware of the “intermittent positive rewards” facsimile modus operandi of my r/s with u/BPD wife. There was a time when I got off punishment, and I was given back my codes, passwords, and hall passes, that I thought to myself, “well, musta been me”, I have learnt my lesson, and it won’t happen again, ~> happily ever after from here on out (silly Red5)… these daze, when I get the keys to the kingdom back again after have been thrown out… I am very leery of the “new” promise of "we are alright now", I now know to expect more of the same [treatment] at a future date, most likely sooner than later, as I can pretty much predict now when it’s on its way (BPD’ism’s)… so now when I get the positive goody good treatment, known as intermittent positive rewards, I am not very trusting anymore about it, and I know, that when she slips her rail again, and she will !, .that all the “presents” will be hauled out and used as a shillelagh to whop Red5 over the head with… ouch  

At the moment, my u/BPDw is all exited about planning a trip for us all, to the region just south of the Canadian border to go and see her son who lives there, its eighteen hundred miles one way, () she wants to drive, and take the dogs, and stay a week, and then RTB another eighteen hundred miles… Red5’s radar warning gear is screaming … oh’ boy… this is going to be painful…

I totally get what you are experiencing Mama Wolf, sounds great, awesome in its construct, the planning, the trip, the run participation, the star wars, Disney … “gifting”… but, .is it a shillelagh disguised as interment positive reward… I think you may be like me, you know that this may only result in further conflict at a later date yet to be determined.

I think formflier is right on target as usual, enjoy it, participate in it, act as though everything is a-ok, enjoy what I call the up-cycle, but just be prepared that things may go awry, you will have to “let go” of some stuff, thus is what I do when my u/BPDw goes off her rails and starts acting out, I “let it go”… and retreat a little, and take care of myself… but that’s not any easy order when you are on a trip, miles and miles and miles of interstate, or airways/airports away from home, trapped, nowhere to go, no escape really… and all you can do is just sit there, and stand by to stand by as the sig-other comes unglued right before your eyes, and also at you… and everything, and everybody, no not fun at all... .sabotage sabotage sabotage... .

Gifting, you know, the term “Indian Giving” just came to mind, as in I love you, here is a shiny object, and tickets to dinner and the show, SHIFT… I hate you, you make me miserable, I gave you XYZ and you could careless, project project project… you you you you… as the non stands by and thinks to themselves… “see, I told you so!”… "when will you ever learn, to ENFORCE that boundary"... ."you knew this was going to happen, how many times has she/he done this to you"... ."lets open the journal and count the incidents"... ."how about that for some "intermittent positive reward"... .ouch!

Predictable behaviors/patterns, the track records are clear, no surprises there.

I say enjoy yourself, and your sig-other, life is short, so have fun !… but be prepared mentally and emotionally for what may come on at a later date… “part and parcel” they say,

Oh to have the wisdom of Master Yoda !

Red5

[mama-wolf]

Thanks again, FF... .the additional detail on your thoughts (and the analogy) was helpful.

The phenomena of BPD and “gifting” … this can be treacherous waters to navigate as we all know, it comes down to … I guess” … how we as “nons” choose to accept, interact, and handle these situations.

I say enjoy yourself, and your sig-other, life is short, so have fun ! … but be prepared mentally and emotionally for what may come on at a later date…. “part and parcel” they say,

And thank you Red5 for chiming in as well!  It has taken me a long time to become aware of this BPD thing, and only as I have learned more over the past few months have I started identifying and developing a better understanding of her patterns of behavior over the years.  I had never thought much about the "gifting" dynamic... .only knew that as she brought these plans to me for our trip that it was making me really uneasy.

So yes, roger that on enjoying myself and what the trip has to offer.  You are too right that life is short.  I also think that spending any energy worrying about what the future conflict will look like is pretty useless... .as you both have identified, I can mentally prepare myself for how to react, and otherwise let it be what it will be.

I hope your pwBPD's proposed trip goes ok.  I can't imagine spending that much time in the car with uBPDw plus dogs, etc. 

(And thanks for expanding my vocabulary!  I had never heard of a shillelagh and had to Google it

mw

[mama-wolf]

Well, our trip to Disney is over, and things went reasonably well.  The first day was pretty rough in that I was annoyed or frustrated by her most of the day.  She was excited about the trip, so she was even more talkative than usual... .making observations about everything, trying to engage in discussion on topics I just didn't have any interest in talking about, etc.  I know part of my problem was the fact that I had built up so much anxiety over how the trip would go, it was hard to let go of that and just try to enjoy myself.

Things settled down a bit after that first day (which was still fun, don't get me wrong).  I was able to get out and exercise a couple mornings, and we took our time enjoying the parks.  We ate and drank way too much, but I sort of expected that, and at least the drinking didn't result in any emotional blow-ups.  I did get frustrated with how drunk she got a couple times, but didn't really feel like I could say anything since this was "her trip" to celebrate her birthday.  So I slipped into caretaker mode and clamped down on my feelings as usual.

It was exhausting overall.  Lots of walking through the parks of course, but even more exhausting was me walking the emotional tightrope of not getting into any deeply emotional discussions about where our relationship is right now while still trying to be present in the moment and help her enjoy her birthday trip.   I am at least very thankful to have set some expectations before going (thanks to my T) by discussing my concerns in couples therapy about there being pressure for this trip to be some relationship saving get-away.

Surprisingly, she respected my need for space (physical and emotional) throughout the trip.  There was one moment when she clearly wanted to be more intimate, but she didn't press the point when I pulled away.  I just feel like that's lost now.  Even though we got along well enough, it's the lack of physical affection and intimacy from me that I see becoming more and more a source of contention as we move into the next few weeks.  I'll kiss hello or goodbye, but she clearly wants more.  She wants to sit close together on the couch, hold each other... .and much more.  And I just don't.  I just don't feel that way towards her anymore, and yet I'm not able to pull that trigger and start the separation process.

So now we're back home, back at work, back to co-parenting, and trying to work through our disagreements.  I can see how hard she is working on her own reactions and how she approaches conflict with me differently now.  I'm thankful that she's doing that work and making that effort, even though it makes me feel even worse for being where I am mentally and emotionally (ready to separate).  I know some things are going to take a lot of time... .and I just feel stuck.

mw

[formflier]

So... .since you guys are each doing your own work... .and apparently making some progress.

Why not take a step or two towards her?

While it's important to use boundaries to protect yourself, it's also important that you do your part for the relationship... .especially when there is behavior to be reinforced.

Important to succinctly mention that when you take steps toward her.

So... perhaps a date night.  Cuddling affection and all that, although I would suggest the focus be more on "fun" than "romance" (hope that makes sense)

"It means a lot to me that you gave me space when I needed it, I want to reciprocate by drawing closer to you."

something like that.

Thoughts?


FF

[mama-wolf]

Why not take a step or two towards her?

While it's important to use boundaries to protect yourself, it's also important that you do your part for the relationship... .especially when there is behavior to be reinforced.

That would be the logical step if I thought saving this marriage was an option anymore, but I don't see it.    I have already identified with the help of my T that my uBPDw is not the person for me to explore emotional intimacy with... .due to her own issues and due to the history of control and emotional manipulation.  So that leaves me in a very difficult place of needing to improve our relationship from a co-parenting standpoint, but struggling with the possibility of building false hopes in her mind.

[formflier]

    I have already identified with the help of my T that my uBPDw is not the person for me to explore emotional intimacy with... .due to her own issues and due to the history of control and emotional manipulation.  

Add to this... .as things stand right now  Correct?

Did you T say she will never change?  Did your T say you will never change?

I'm not arguing with your T... .but I want to make sure the advice is put in proper context. 

Last... perhaps you don't see it... .see the way forward, because you are too far away.  Wouldn't it be smart to take a step or two forward... .and see what it actually looks like?

Do you really think it will "always" be the same? 

Was the trip as bad as you "feared"?  Do you think a date night with some fun and closeness will be as bad as you "fear"?

FF

[Lucky Jim]

She wants to sit close together on the couch, hold each other... .and much more.  And I just don't.  I just don't feel that way towards her anymore, and yet I'm not able to pull that trigger and start the separation process.

Hey mama-wolf, It seems like your r/s at present is more about co-parenting than about romance.  Is that accurate?  It sounds like you were walking on eggshells during your trip.  Presumably there's something that keeps you hangin' on.  What do you think it is?

LJ

[mama-wolf]

Yes, LJ, right now it's all about co-parenting and getting through each day.

There is no romance in it for me at this point.  I feel like my trust in uBPDw has been so damaged as it pertains to emotional intimacy and vulnerability that there is no path forward for us in that regard.  And the worst part is, I know it wasn't all intentional on her part... .but intentional or not, the manipulation and controlling behaviors have done significant damage.

As far as hanging on... .my focus has been for us all to reach a more stabilized state, both emotionally and financially.  The conflict in our house had risen to an intolerable level up until very recently.  It was less than two weeks ago that we had two massive blow-ups less than 48 hours apart, but we have made some progress on that front.  She has been very diligent in her DBT therapy, and I am starting to see some impact there. 

Now my focus is on D9, whose relationship with uBPDw is extremely strained.  The kid is immediately and intensely annoyed/frustrated/angry at just about every encounter with uBPDw.  For years, uBPDw's approach and interactions have been so laced with criticism of D9's behavior, motivations, choices, etc. that D9 flat out doesn't seem to like uBPDw most of the time.  So you might imagine that co-parenting on that front is a little tricky.  And S5 is starting to get more defiant, I think in part because the conflict has been impacting him as well.

uBPDw left her job a few months ago and has started a new business with some associates (not a direct partnership, but it's on the path towards that).  Financial stability is key here.  We have run up a bit of debt... .both before she left her job (due to her spending habits and inability/unwillingness to establish and stick to budgeting), and since then (due to little or no income on her part so far).  It's not crushing debt, but I need to get her to a place of more stable income, both to reduce overall stress as well as alleviate my concerns for potential financial obligations upon separation.  (Side note: Even with our financial situation, I did agree to still go on our trip for multiple reasons that I can get into another time).

FF, your points are valid... .things change, and currently appear to be on a positive trajectory.  I just don't know that they can improve enough to overcome the damage that has already been done.  I know there has to be a certain willingness on my part to let that happen... .which I'm still trying to work through with my T.

mw

[formflier]

   which I'm still trying 

What would yoda say about trying?  Perhaps you saw that on your last trip?

https://youtu.be/BQ4yd2W50No

FF

[mama-wolf]

Well, the most recent session with my T was a little eye-opening, because she has now made specific reference to me being traumatized by my relationship with uBPDw, and also specifically referred to some of her behaviors as emotional abuse.

I think it has hit me pretty hard because I haven't thought (or allowed myself to think) in these terms before now.  Poor impulse control?  Absolutely.  Emotional manipulation?  Sure... .but abuse?  No way.  No one abuses me.  I wouldn't let that happen.  How could I let that happen?  Why wouldn't I realize that and do something about it sooner?  I feel like I have asked these questions before in a post, but whether I have or not, they're still rolling around in my head.

After the session, I also found myself thinking over and over again about a scene from the movie Abyss.  For those who haven't seen it, some Navy SEALs end up on a deep ocean rig, and they bring along a fluid breathing system for extremely deep diving.  One of the rig's crew asks about it, and one of the SEALs decides to demonstrate how it works with the guy's pet rat.  Being fluid, it's harder to move in and out of your lungs, but you supposedly get used to it.  After the rat calms down, the SEAL is like "he's digging it"... .and what just keeps rolling through my mind is Hippie's (rat's owner) rather p*ssed off response:  "Shes doing it, she ain't digging it!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MdlyM7w8PM&feature=youtu.be

I feel like the rat... .I'm going through each day, breathing the fluid with great effort and staying alive, but I'm really not digging life.

I think it's time to move off this board and finally start detaching.  My T had encouraged me to set a time limit on how much longer I would hold out for more stability/improvement in the relationship, which I did... .estimating late June as the outer boundary.  I'm still conflicted about a lot of things, and have to keep tolerating the situation for at least a while longer.  But my T is now saying she thinks I'm a lot closer to a breaking point than I realize, so that timeline may have to move up... .

mw

[formflier]

I think it has hit me pretty hard because I haven't thought (or allowed myself to think) in these terms before now.  Poor impulse control?  Absolutely.  Emotional manipulation?  Sure... .but abuse?  No way.  No one abuses me.  I wouldn't let that happen.  How could I let that happen?  Why wouldn't I realize that and do something about it sooner?  I feel like I have asked these questions before in a post, but whether I have or not, they're still rolling around in my head.

 
I think it's time to move off this board and finally start detaching.  My T had encouraged me to set a time limit on how much longer I would hold out for more stability/improvement in the relationship, which I did... .estimating late June as the outer boundary.  I'm still conflicted about a lot of things, and have to keep tolerating the situation for at least a while longer.  But my T is now saying she thinks I'm a lot closer to a breaking point than I realize, so that timeline may have to move up... .

Few thoughts/questions.

Did you have any thoughts about if there is/was an intention on the part of your partner to abuse you?  Do you believe your partner understood/understands what was going on as abuse?

The reason you didn't realize it at the time (per your question) is that you didn't understand it at the time.  That sucks, but it is what it is.  It's the past.

You do seem to realize this now  I would focus your energy on what you will do now with the realization of what has been going on.  Because... .you can affect what is happening now.

You can't affect the past.

It's very likely you can affect the future, although it depends on what you do now, to position yourself for the best chance of affecting the future.

Can you describe to me what and how your T has challenged YOU to change the relationship?  Did she really encourage you to decided how long you will "hold out"?  Are those really the words she advised you to use or are they the words she used to describe your current decisions/behavior?

   

I well remember "seeing more clearly" and being shocked and disappointed in myself... .my past self.  Not a fun time... .but an important one.

FF 

[Red5]

Well, the most recent session with my T was a little eye-opening, because she has now made specific reference to me being traumatized by my relationship with uBPDw, and also specifically referred to some of her behaviors as emotional abuse.

I think it has hit me pretty hard because I haven't thought (or allowed myself to think) in these terms before now.  

*Poor impulse control?  Absolutely.  
*Emotional manipulation?  Sure... .but abuse?  No way.  
*No one abuses me.  I wouldn't let that happen.  

... .How could I let that happen?  Why wouldn't I realize that and do something about it sooner?  

I feel like the rat (movie Abyss)... .I'm going through each day, breathing the fluid with great effort and staying alive, but I'm really not digging life.

... .My T had encouraged me to set a time limit on how much longer I would hold out for more stability/improvement in the relationship, which I did... .estimating late June as the outer boundary.  

I'm still conflicted about a lot of things, and have to keep tolerating the situation for at least a while longer.  

... .my T is now saying she thinks I'm a lot closer to a breaking point than I realize,

... .so that timeline may have to move up... .

Good Morning Mama Wolf,

Yes, an “eye-opener”… pretty sobering is it not; to have someone outside of the relationship tell you (us) something along those lines.

I have a friend who tells me quite often, when he see’s I am in the midst of yet another pbd event with my u/BPDw, he says to me, “brother, I could not do what you are doing”…

Several have written here of late about the “jump reflex” when pw/BPD gets home, maybe we got home first, or else pw/BPD left for a while, shopping, appointment, a short day or two trip someplace… so you are in a relaxed mode for a little while, pw/BPD is gone for a while, so you can breathe, you can let your guard down, and turn off the radar for a while so it can cool down… maybe you switch your phone to vibrate and leave it in another room, you have a chance to “wash out your head gear”… take a short nap, “take your shoes off, set a spell”… and then you hear the garage door opener start running, and your friggen heart JUMPS…

Yeah, are you friggen kidding me… ugh, and WHY !… because now you got to suit back up, turn the radar switch from OFF back to OPERATE… you got to put your armor back on, you got to put your pack back on, because pw/BPD is about to come back through that door, pw/BPD is just mere seconds away from being back in your grill again… break time is OVER… Ugh !

This is not normal, this is dysfunctional, this is emotionally destructive, and this is no way to have to live… no it is not.

Like you wrote, "I'm going through each day, with great effort; and staying alive, but I'm really not digging life."

This is the result of abuse I am sad to say… even the most conditioned, strongest, and level headed person will eventually fall to this… I remember back in service, maybe we had a tyrant of a Sergeant Major for a while around the squadron, he ruled with an iron fist, he was counterproductive to the mission of the squadron, he destroyed morale, he was abusive in his billet, and many of the Marines avoided any and all possible contact with him, at all costs, unless absolutely necessary… yes, a very slight form of PTSD… and if it continues, over a period of time, not isolated to just one or two events, then you got a form of CPTSD… same with living with a pw/BPD, they are like that bi-polar (npd?) Sergeant Major back in the squadron, a constant raging A$$ hole, nobody can even stand to be around him, same thing!

You wrote about “I'm a lot closer to a breaking point than I realize”…

With me, it’s like I am starting to see little things go by the wayside now, say we quarrel, we fight, so she takes down our picture and rips it from its frame, and rips it up and throws it into the trash, or removes it from a bookshelf, and where does it go then, the trash?… there was a time period that I would go and retrieve it from the garbage bin, or I would make re-prints, and restore it… but I do not do this anymore.

What’s done is now done for good, no more “re-prints”, no more rescue from the garbage bin, no “resets”… so one time she got mad at me a few months ago, and threw my new toothbrush she had gotten me into the trash… so we recycled, (see I don’t even call it making up anymore now)… we “recycled”… and I pulled out another one fresh and new that I’d bought for myself, but I put it into my own medicine cabinet and out of her sight… NOT in the “communal marriage” () couples toothbrush holder cup there on the counter as it has been for over eight years now, now only hers stands there, all by itself… silly  … maybe, but another little thing between us now gone, and for good, a “sign”.

I have noticed a myriad of things that I no longer do for her… some small, some inconsequential in nature, .some of a bit of consequence however, does she notice?, .do I even care if she's noticed?, .a small revolt maybe on my part, or is it that I am starting to shut down, as in unappreciated, means I now “remove services”, impose sanctions, do I have empathy for her, yes I do, but the prince charming attitude in me (?) has had his friendly good nature thrown back into his face a few too many times now… and poor prince charming is starting to feel a bit angry, even resentful, and has started to “journal” each new event, and has now started to remember the last event, and the one before that, and the one before that.

That breaking point may actually be something as simple as her throwing the roses I bought for her for valentines into the commode during another stupid fight, yes the $hitter, to channel Archie Bunker, “the twirl-it”… maybe nothing as spectacular as I built it up in my own mind, but yet another sign of the forever more presence of unrelenting dysfunction in our marriage… one would think; that certain things are, shall we say, “sacred”… but they aren’t… and now they all individually represent, as a whole, once trampled upon (slighted), .my “breaking point” reached.

What’s gone is gone indeed, and to do such things in the first place was indeed abusive, yes !

Hang In there, Mama Wolf
Red5

[mama-wolf]

Did you have any thoughts about if there is/was an intention on the part of your partner to abuse you?  Do you believe your partner understood/understands what was going on as abuse?

Thanks, FF... .I have thought about this a lot of course, and no I don't think it was all intentional.  After she had acknowledged the emotional manipulation over the past several years, I asked her in our couples therapy for clarification on whether she did it on purpose.  I do believe her when she said about 95% of the time it was not conscious... .but the rest she acknowledged was intentional.

Ultimately, how much does intent really matter to the end result--specifically, the apparently traumatizing impact on me?  I do recognize her efforts to put in a lot of work on herself through her DBT therapy.  That's a good thing.  But it doesn't remove what I have experienced, and doesn't remove how it seems to have changed me.

As to whether she understands now, as she is going through DBT, that some of her behaviors have actually been abuse... .I don't know.  I am not ready to confront her on that point right now, since I'm still grappling with it myself.

Can you describe to me what and how your T has challenged YOU to change the relationship?  Did she really encourage you to decided how long you will "hold out"?  Are those really the words she advised you to use or are they the words she used to describe your current decisions/behavior?

My T has helped me accept that I have "turned a corner" (to use her words), in that I'm no longer trying to repair the marriage.  I have been working mostly to stabilize a situation that has been deteriorating and escalating for years, hoping to at least repair how we relate to each other--especially as co-parents--but I do not see a future for the marriage itself.  We have discussed that I feel incredibly stuck due to our financial situation and some other factors, which is what leaves me enduring as much as I can for as long as I can. 

Given that I am in this place, she said it will eventually drive me crazy--uBPDw and I are currently working towards different goals since uBPDw is still trying to save the marriage.  So, when she acts "correctly" in support of that goal, the behavior ends up being triggering for me because I can't go there.   When she lapses back into the behaviors that brought us to this place, I'm triggered in a different way (just as Red5 was describing in his recent example of the "jump reflex".

So my T encouraged me to identify a time limit that I will allow this to continue before I make a change (i.e. finally express to uBPDw that I want a divorce and start that process).  I understand her reasoning... .setting a time limit transforms it from being an indefinite Hell into a more limited period of suffering that I have more control over.  And based on our most recent session, she thinks that time limit may need to be moved up for the sake of my own mental health.

And Red5, I have noticed things falling by the wayside as well.  I don't want to do things for uBPDw, I rarely feel like offering encouragement (much less emotional support, given my burnout).  So that's a big sign for me as well... .I have nothing left to give in the context of a marriage.

mw

[formflier]

So... .if you didn't think it was abuse at the time

And she didn't think it was abuse at the time.

And now you do.

And now she does.

And she is actively working to repair and avoid those things.

I'm curious why you wouldn't try out actively trying to repair those things? 

Personally... I don't like the word "repair".  I like the metaphor of "building a bridge towards"... .

I like the word "improve" our relationship... .there is less judgment there.  Repair implies "broken"... .which then usually leads to blame... .

Better to take "responsibility" for improvement.

Let me ask it this way.  Has there been a time when both of you actively tried to "repair" your relationship and both were being guided by professionals?

If so... how long?

FF

[mama-wolf]

I'm curious why you wouldn't try out actively trying to repair those things? 

I like the word "improve" our relationship... .there is less judgment there.  Repair implies "broken"... .which then usually leads to blame... .

I’m not against making things better between us.  We absolutely and without a doubt have to do this because we will be part of each other’s lives for decades to come through our children.  But that does not mean repairing the marriage for me.  The foundations of our marriage were flawed to begin with, and the fact that we did get married does not mean that we should stay married.

I don’t blame her for her behaviors, but I also can no longer trust her in the way I need to be able to trust a spouse.  As someone with a predominately avoidant approach to emotions, I have determined (with my T’s support and agreement) that my uBPDw is not the right person for me to try exploring emotional intimacy and vulnerability with.  She is not the spouse I need, and I am not able to be the spouse she needs.

The work she has been doing so far is encouraging, but I can no longer pin my future on 1) whether she sticks with it, or 2) whether it results in enough improvement in order for her to be someone I want to be with.  She needs to improve and become someone she is happy to be.  I want that for her—I just don’t want to be married to her.

We were in couples therapy five years ago for several months with the result mainly being some improved communication skills.  Looking back, I see that as being the result of the first major escalation in BPD behaviors, with the prior years being thoroughly laced in the much more subtle versions. 

With the increasing escalations over the last couple of years, we finally initiated couples therapy again a few months ago.  I am not quite sure how much that T buys into the possibility of uBPDw actually having BPD, and the trauma/abuse revelation is too new to have addressed with her in session.  Now that I think about it, I think I would prefer to her to provide that update via email and not directly in front of uBPDw.  I’m not sure what path forward the couples T would see, but from my position it’s a matter of detaching as gracefully as possible and maintaining a focus on what’s best for the kids.

[formflier]

So... .reflecting back what I think I'm hearing from you.  Please let me know if this is pretty much accurate.

You don't want to be married to your wife.

You've figured out that you made a mistake marrying her.

It really doesn't matter what she has done or will do, that doesn't or won't change your feelings about being married to her.

Close?

FF

[mama-wolf]

You don't want to be married to your wife.

Correct.

You've figured out that you made a mistake marrying her.

Close. The marriage resulted in my two beautiful kids, and I will never regret that.  As discussed with my T, maybe if we had identified the problem several years ago and sought professional help then, we would be in a different place than we are today.

It really doesn't matter what she has done or will do, that doesn't or won't change your feelings about being married to her.

Correct.

mw

[formflier]

Does your MC know this?  Your feelings about your marriage?

Do your T and MC talk?

FF

[mama-wolf]

No, they haven't been in contact, but I plan to discuss that possibility with my T in our session next week.

The MC is aware from our initial intake that I was considering separation/divorce.  She asked when we began the process of counseling whether I would be willing to hold off on making any final decisions or taking any action for about six months, and I agreed.  You asked how I feel and I answered honestly, but I still struggle with it.

In the interim, things have continued to be extremely difficult between me and uBPDw, which I have worked on with my T as far as the impact on me is concerned.  We have also discussed our fights in couples therapy as we have worked on learning new approaches/tools to address the conflicts. 

I did recently express to the MC that I was having trouble seeing a path forward for the marriage.  This bit about having "turned a corner" according to my T is still relatively new.  My inner critic is being extremely hard on me for feeling like it's over, and my T is helping me work through that.  I still need to come to terms with this before I am ready to openly say to the MC (and uBPDw) that we're done.

mw