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VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?" Parental alienation is when a parent allows a child to participate or hear them degrade the other parent. This is not uncommon in divorces and the children often adjust. In severe cases, however, it can be devastating to the child. This video provides a helpful overview.
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Author Topic: My husband found Jesus, again, going through a manic phase  (Read 796 times)
snowglobe
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« on: April 13, 2018, 04:55:07 PM »

My uBPDh found Jesus when he was 17 yo, it was somewhat coerced conversion. His parents didn’t know what to do with him anymore, he was out of control, often depressed and manic. In their efforts to reign his madness they found Christian Orthodox Christianity as way of dealing with his behaviour. Repetitive resighting, weekly attendance, according to my uBPDh helped him tremendously. By the time I met him, he no longer attended church regularly. In my efforts to solidify our marriage I proposed to have an additional church blessed ceremony, as I knew from him, a marriage that was blessed by the higher power had a stronger chance of surviving. I was mistaken. Being married in a church played in no favour when it comes to BPD behaviour, outbursts and manic episodes. During his manic episodes, with glaring glassy eyes he was talking about going to church regularly. His hypocrisy has no merit, one minute he tells our autsitic son 10 to smear spaghetti all over “mommy’s hair” (after s10 was Pranking him with fake moustache, I just happened to stand nearby) to saying that he is going to church on Saturday.
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« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2018, 04:56:53 PM »

My uBPDh found Jesus when he was 17 yo, it was somewhat coerced conversion. His parents didn’t know what to do with him anymore, he was out of control, often depressed and manic. In their efforts to reign his madness they found Christian Orthodox Christianity as way of dealing with his behaviour. Repetitive resighting, weekly attendance, according to my uBPDh helped him tremendously. By the time I met him, he no longer attended church regularly. In my efforts to solidify our marriage I proposed to have an additional church blessed ceremony, as I knew from him, a marriage that was blessed by the higher power had a stronger chance of surviving. I was mistaken. Being married in a church played in no favour when it comes to BPD behaviour, outbursts and manic episodes. During his manic episodes, with glaring glassy eyes he was talking about going to church regularly. His hypocrisy has no merit, one minute he tells our autsitic son 10 to smear spaghetti all over “mommy’s hair” (after s10 was Pranking him with fake moustache, I just happened to stand nearby) to saying that he is going to church on Saturday. I have nothing against religion as an idea. If he were to attend church and keep his Christian commandments, I would be the first person to support his effort and calling. In reality it’s him splitting on me, because I am a non believer (converted Jew), and painting me black. In his black and white thinking, confession automatically cancels his sins and his soul is cleansed. He also began to take money from our account to “donating to church’s needs”.
Now million dollar question- taking aside the aspect of me believing or not, he could just as well joined a religious sect. He is trying to get the kids to come to church, which I’m very apprehensive about. Again, if in 17 years he didn’t celebrate religious holidays or code of conduct, I don’t want to confuse children that were brought up in a all inclusive household. I don’t want to puzzle and disappoint them when he snaps out of it and no longer goes to church because it’s inconvenient or doesn’t fit his schedule. I also don’t want to preach something that he doesn’t follow. How do a weather this storm and make it bearable for myself and the kids?
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« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2018, 06:15:37 PM »

  His hypocrisy has no merit, one minute he tells our autsitic son 10 to smear spaghetti all over “mommy’s hair” (after s10 was Pranking him with fake moustache, I just happened to stand nearby) to saying that he is going to church on Saturday.

Couple things

I notice you posted on bettering and my understanding is you usually post in conflicted.  Is the change in board intentional or was it an oversight?

About the hypocrisy comment... .can you connect some dots for me.  What does discussion of pranks and going to church have to do with hypocrisy? 

I'm conservative Baptist Christian... .I'll confess I'm not all that familiar with Christian Orthodox (is this the same as "eastern orthodox"?)

If he is interested in going... why not go with him.  Listen... .ask questions.  I will say that there is usually a big gulf between what "people say" religions believe or mean... .and what those religions say they believe or mean.

So... .like most things in life, if you want to understand it, go to the source... .and understand it from them directly.

As for the rest of your questions... .I would resist trying to predict the future.  Disaster (confused disappointed children) versus victory (unconfused undisappointed children)

Children (people in general) will be exposed to wide assortment of belief systems as they grow up and continuing into adulthood.  Would you agree it is wise for parents to be involved in that? 

If so... .take them to church... .let them ask questions... .perhaps you take them to other churches.  Perhaps people end up believing different things and you have a wonderful opportunity to demonstrate tolerance.

Who knows what will happen... .cross that bridge when you get to it.

Thoughts?


FF
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« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2018, 06:40:20 PM »

Couple things

I notice you posted on bettering and my understanding is you usually post in conflicted.  Is the change in board intentional or was it an oversight?

About the hypocrisy comment... .can you connect some dots for me.  What does discussion of pranks and going to church have to do with hypocrisy? 

I'm conservative Baptist Christian... .I'll confess I'm not all that familiar with Christian Orthodox (is this the same as "eastern orthodox"?)

If he is interested in going... why not go with him.  Listen... .ask questions.  I will say that there is usually a big gulf between what "people say" religions believe or mean... .and what those religions say they believe or mean.

So... .like most things in life, if you want to understand it, go to the source... .and understand it from them directly.

As for the rest of your questions... .I would resist trying to predict the future.  Disaster (confused disappointed children) versus victory (unconfused undisappointed children)

Children (people in general) will be exposed to wide assortment of belief systems as they grow up and continuing into adulthood.  Would you agree it is wise for parents to be involved in that? 

If so... .take them to church... .let them ask questions... .perhaps you take them to other churches.  Perhaps people end up believing different things and you have a wonderful opportunity to demonstrate tolerance.

Who knows what will happen... .cross that bridge when you get to it.

Thoughts?


FF

Point by point:
I’m not conflicted regarding this topic, I only need tools and option of experienced members such as yourself. Do you think it belongs to the conflicted board? I am not opposed to religion and Christianity in particular. In fact, I would much rather prefer my uBPDh to attend church regularly if this would help to stabilize his mood and affect. As someone who has been baptized, but doesn’t practice I pass no judgement at the religious aspect. What is quite frightening is that “religion” as a whole is a “get out of jail free” card for committing transgressions against his family.

He lies on the couch watching YouTube pranks of women being pretend kidnaped, belittled, fights and gun practice, a second later he retorts that Saturday is a confession time, so he is attending church. He is demonstrating behaviour that has very little to do with religion, taking solace that, as if majically, G-d forgives him, no matter what he does, as long as he attends the mass. IMHO swearing, child neglect, insulting and occasional cocaine use don’t paint a picture of a devoted Christian in my mind.

Eastern Orthodox- if you mean Greeks, Ukraineians and Russians sounds about right. It’s very, how should I say, orthodox, people aren’t alowed to sit, they have to stand or kneel, the fasting and holidays are more regious if you will.

I support your suggestion of going with him, I’ve done it for Easter service. What I saw wasn’t a soul cleanse, he is in a midst of a hypomanic episode with glassy gaze, splitting and devaluation. It will surely pass, and so will his commitment to church. Which is unfortunate, he could really use Jesus a role model. I read it at another post here, which I loved. Next time he says or does something atrocious, I will ask him “ is this what Jesus would do/say?”

Regarding confused children to be specific- younger s10 is on a spectrum for asd. It’s a strong recommendation from his child psychologist to keep to one language only (we are trilingual) and stay away from any religion. Adding “a men/entity/higher power” puts him at greater risk for anxiety and dysregultion. In a world, which is 2d and literally black and white, it’s not a good idea to mingle with unknown. So I’m simply considering recommendations of a professional. I want to emphasize that I’m not against Christianity/religion in general, but in our specific case it can’t be a matter of convenience and religious fanatism
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« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2018, 06:53:14 PM »

 What is quite frightening is that “religion” as a whole is a “get out of jail free” card for committing transgressions against his family.

Says who?  Please be specific in what exactly was said... .and what is an interpretation of what is said?


He lies on the couch watching YouTube pranks of women being pretend kidnaped, belittled, fights and gun practice, a second later he retorts that Saturday is a confession time, so he is attending church.

What does church and youtube have to do with one another.  Frankly... this and the spaghetti prank thing have me befuddled.

Please... .connect the dots on this.   Small steps... I'm not getting it.



 He is demonstrating behaviour that has very little to do with religion, taking solace that, as if majically, G-d forgives him, no matter what he does, as long as he attends the mass. IMHO swearing, child neglect, insulting and occasional cocaine use don’t paint a picture of a devoted Christian in my mind.

Does he say he is demonstrating this?  :)oes he say he believes this?

or is this an interpretation of his actions by someone?

How does he describe his Christian walk?  Would he say he is "devoted"?

Eastern Orthodox- if you mean Greeks, Ukraineians and Russians sounds about right. It’s very, how should I say, orthodox, people aren’t alowed to sit, they have to stand or kneel, the fasting and holidays are more regious if you will.

I'm onboard... .I wish I knew more.  Offhand I know they swing the incense a lot and focus on traditions.  After that... .I'm out.

As opposed to my ability to describe the generally accepted differences between southern baptist, cooperative baptist, regular baptist... .(I could go on)... .we Baptists entertain ourselves with differences things that we claim really... really... .really matter a lot.


I support your suggestion of going with him, I’ve done it for Easter service. What I saw wasn’t a soul cleanse, he is in a midst of a hypomanic episode with glassy gaze, splitting and devaluation. It will surely pass, and so will his commitment to church. Which is unfortunate, he could really use Jesus a role model. I read it at another post here, which I loved. Next time he says or does something atrocious, I will ask him “ is this what Jesus would do/say?”

I would stay away from the WWJD question... .for now.  My opinion it is unlikely you would be able to ask it in a way that is NOT provocative or inflammatory to him.

This would be something to discuss and role-play with your T if she gives you clearance to ask it... .go for it.


Regarding confused children to be specific- younger s10 is on a spectrum for asd. It’s a strong recommendation from his child psychologist to keep to one language only (we are trilingual) and stay away from any religion. Adding “a men/entity/higher power” puts him at greater risk for anxiety and dysregultion. In a world, which is 2d and literally black and white, it’s not a good idea to mingle with unknown. So I’m simply considering recommendations of a professional. I want to emphasize that I’m not against Christianity/religion in general, but in our specific case it can’t be a matter of convenience and religious fanatism

So... .please look at the bold.

Let's be crystal clear here... .you have advice from a medical professional to keep your child away from religion?  

That seems shocking to me... to give that professional the benefit of the doubt... .I'm sure context really matters.  Why would that even come up?

Can you fill in some blanks there?

FF
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« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2018, 06:13:00 AM »

Snowglobe

In your other thread were two good ideas that might have gotten lost.   The first was:

So... .what is your role in this?
Why do I ask?
You don't control his thinking... .you do control yours.

and the second is:

Stop caretaking the borderline.

We get it,   people with BPD are usually impulsive in ways that are not helpful.   But seriously Snowglobe, what is your role in this?    That's not a rhetorical question.     What are your responsibilities, where do they start,  where do they stop?   How much do you control?   How much should you control?

I understand you want tools and options.    here are my suggestions, picking up from your other thread.

  • don't predict the future
  • don't catastrophize, don't indulge in disaster thinking
  • work to manage your reactions, not his actions
  • begin to create internal, emotional, psychological resilience in yourself
  • don't over identify with his thinking
  • work to create a reality independent of distorted thinking

You can't predict the future.  there is no way to know if attending church will make help stabilize him or not.  there is no way to say how he can or might 'use' religion to get out of jail free.  is it possible that his retort that Saturday is confession time started a spiral in your own thinking?   from what you wrote here, what started as Saturday is confession so I am going became a maniac phase, get out jail free, stabilization, possible impacts to children, hypocrisy.  and that was all before anything had actually happened.

When enabler said "stop caretaking the borderline"  what did that mean to you?   What does caretaking the borderline mean?   How do you do it?   Where do you see it in this conversation?

I know those are hard questions.   For me caretaking includes all those other 'c' words.   Control.   Cure.    Change.   

What do you think is your best possible, healthiest response to him attending church or going to confession, for you?   Not for him or for what might (or might not) happen.  For you and the health of your relationship which you are a partner in?

'ducks
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« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2018, 09:10:49 AM »

Snowglobe

In your other thread were two good ideas that might have gotten lost.   The first was:

and the second is:

We get it,   people with BPD are usually impulsive in ways that are not helpful.   But seriously Snowglobe, what is your role in this?    That's not a rhetorical question.     What are your responsibilities, where do they start,  where do they stop?   How much do you control?   How much should you control?

I understand you want tools and options.    here are my suggestions, picking up from your other thread.

  • don't predict the future
  • don't catastrophize, don't indulge in disaster thinking
  • work to manage your reactions, not his actions
  • begin to create internal, emotional, psychological resilience in yourself
  • don't over identify with his thinking
  • work to create a reality independent of distorted thinking

You can't predict the future.  there is no way to know if attending church will make help stabilize him or not.  there is no way to say how he can or might 'use' religion to get out of jail free.  is it possible that his retort that Saturday is confession time started a spiral in your own thinking?   from what you wrote here, what started as Saturday is confession so I am going became a maniac phase, get out jail free, stabilization, possible impacts to children, hypocrisy.  and that was all before anything had actually happened.

When enabler said "stop caretaking the borderline"  what did that mean to you?   What does caretaking the borderline mean?   How do you do it?   Where do you see it in this conversation?

I know those are hard questions.   For me caretaking includes all those other 'c' words.   Control.   Cure.    Change.    

What do you think is your best possible, healthiest response to him attending church or going to confession, for you?   Not for him or for what might (or might not) happen.  For you and the health of your relationship which you are a partner in?

'ducks

Wow, @ducks,
Thank you for turning the mirror on me!  Your bullet points pretty much sum up my 3 weeks therapy sessions. I’m gonna try to explain point by point:
My reaction started as you said on Saturday, for two reasons; first, subconsciously I already knew he was hypomanic. It actually began a week before. What I didn’t expect, that this time, instead of buying a rifle at the same cost as the car, he was going to start preaching to the children and going to Church, after 17 years of non attending. Second, my reaction is very “ptsdish” in its nature. I reread my posts and see it clearly. Several times prior that he has taken the religious approach, he made my life unbearable. Those episodes made a long lasting ripple effect, that I fear now. From taking money from family budget, on the “needs of the church” something we couldn’t afford, to telling me that I was repulsive, because I was born Jewish, to “Israel should be wiped from the face of the earth, because 1.they killed Jesus, 2.jews are manases of the Earth, and that he wishes that Hitler finished what he started”    do you see now? It was said in front of my children. He also talks, with religious fanatism tht no other religion deserves to exist, that this religion is what brings him closer (to his BPD foo).
It’s not his actions that I am trying to stop so much, I now realize that I dispise the person he becomes when he is in this state. These words about Holocost and Jews and anihilation of Israel cut me like a knife. With instability all over he world I value human life, I believe that everyone deserves to live in a safe and well nurturing environment. My grandparents from both sides were orphaned by ww2, I first hand saw what this kind of thinking does to families, generations and what kind of demographic effect it has on countries. In the part of the world where I was born, to clearify, being Jewish isn’t a religious practice. It’s ethnicity. People who haven’t practiced Judaism for generations, as mine, still considered to be Jews and that is written in their passports.  That is why it’s creating a very powerful emotional charge within me. Is he a ricist? I am not sure... .sadly, it can be something he feels and comes up every five years, or something he says because his identification with Jesus is so strong. Either way, you are right, I need to work on my emotional state, and identification of my own triggers.
My overthinking stems from my past experience, I know that it isn’t going to be pretty for a while. He is manic-> become devoted Christian-> hate Jews, they killed Jesus and now bombed Siria, which he sympathizes with-> Jews are bad, he will preach to whoever listens, they should cease to exist-> tell the kids, that being only Christian Orthodox is good, everyone else is bad and outsiders-> mom was born a Jew, she is bad, she is a parasite, like all other Jews -> (oh, wait a a minute, she is baptized) even so, Jews were converting all the way from Spanish Inquisition to save their necks, this only shows how spineless they are, how conniving your mother is. These are the ideas he expresses during the religious moments. It turns me away from any kind of spiritual moment I might have, it frightens me and belittles me in front of my children, it makes my defiance rise up and suddenly I’m in a defence stance and I’m ready to attach abd distroy him (defeating sigh).
@babyducks, please tell me what is a healthy response to him going to church and confessions, for me? I feel no desire going and pretending to have a religious extaze when I hear all those things before and after. What I actually feel, is an overwhelming need to take my kids and flea (fight or flight natural response that I work hard at suppressing)
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« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2018, 09:28:30 AM »

Says who?  Please be specific in what exactly was said... .and what is an interpretation of what is said?


What does church and youtube have to do with one another.  Frankly... this and the spaghetti prank thing have me befuddled.

Please... .connect the dots on this.   Small steps... I'm not getting it.


Does he say he is demonstrating this?  :)oes he say he believes this?

or is this an interpretation of his actions by someone?

How does he describe his Christian walk?  Would he say he is "devoted"?

I'm onboard... .I wish I knew more.  Offhand I know they swing the incense a lot and focus on traditions.  After that... .I'm out.

As opposed to my ability to describe the generally accepted differences between southern baptist, cooperative baptist, regular baptist... .(I could go on)... .we Baptists entertain ourselves with differences things that we claim really... really... .really matter a lot.


I would stay away from the WWJD question... .for now.  My opinion it is unlikely you would be able to ask it in a way that is NOT provocative or inflammatory to him.

This would be something to discuss and role-play with your T if she gives you clearance to ask it... .go for it.


So... .please look at the bold.

Let's be crystal clear here... .you have advice from a medical professional to keep your child away from religion?  

That seems shocking to me... to give that professional the benefit of the doubt... .I'm sure context really matters.  Why would that even come up?

Can you fill in some blanks there?

FF
Dear @formflier,
It’s his “get out of jail free card” because he has been doing these things in the past.
In analogy with spaghetti, it’s only a glimpse of his behaviour, no, it doesn’t have anything to do with Christianity. My idea of a religious person is someone who practices and lives their lives guided by commandments. In any monotheistic religion, it teaches to be kind to other, love others as you love thee, forgiveness, patience, showing the other cheek. None of those are present in my uBPDh. Christianity is a way of him justifying his racist views (read my previous post).
He says that he is now becoming devoted, with ferocity and full commitment, standing there and speaking to G-d, he is ready to protect his faith (from who? Likely from me, because I’m not a devoted Christian)
Regarding our son, I want to explain, he’s been diagnosed as Asd at the age of 2, over the years he has monthly visits from clinical child psychologist who tracks his progress. As s10 takes everything literally (if you say it’s raining cats and dogs, he will be looking for animals falling from the sky). We had a conversation about Christmas, Santa and the story behind it. Clinician advised us to keep it a winter holiday, as the idea of G-d being born, man climbing through a chimney at night, crucifiction and rebirth isn’t something that his mind can tolerate. Which we did, we don’t speak about religion, I read bible with him as a story, he didn’t enjoy them, so we stopped.
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« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2018, 10:01:30 AM »


I would think the entire question of what YOU do with regards to religion, and going to church or not... .is an issue that you "slow down" on... .reflect on for a while... .and spend time with your therapist sorting out how you feel about your religious beliefs... .

I would specifically ask for your Ts thoughts on how much time and brainpower you should spend considering your husbands beliefs.





on the “needs of the church” something we couldn’t afford, to telling me that I was repulsive, because I was born Jewish, to “Israel should be wiped from the face of the earth, because 1.they killed Jesus, 2.jews are manases of the Earth, and that he wishes that Hitler finished what he started”    do you see now? It was said in front of my children. He also talks, with religious fanatism tht no other religion deserves to exist, that this religion is what brings him closer (to his BPD foo).


Please read this... .

Then read it again with an idea of separating out stuff to put in a separate bucket.  There can be lots of buckets here.

And... .seriously... .there needs to be a discussion in therapy about what you do with "crazy a$$" stuff that BPDish people say... .

Let's be clear... .what are the chances that your husband is actually going to "continue hitlers work"?  I'm not at all condoning anything your hubby says... .but... .I hope you can agree that the way YOU have been working through what YOU do... when other people say wacky stuff is not working for YOU.

I get it... wouldn't life be easier if he didn't say crazy stuff.    Chances that he is going to stop?

Especially when he gets such strong reactions from you that are in some fashion "fulfilling a need in a dysfunctional way"




It’s not his actions that I am trying to stop so much, I now realize that I dispise the person he becomes when he is in this state.

Since we are being religious... .let's look at the four horsemen of the apocalypse

I'm going to be frank with you.  It's clear you despise your husband.   If it's clear to us... what do you suppose the chances are he understands that you feel that way?

These words about Holocost and Jews and anihilation of Israel cut me like a knife.

Likely a good topic for therapy.  There are bad things in this world you should NOT take personally... .and there are things you SHOULD take personally.  

Why does this matter?

The relationship dynamic that you and your hubby has goes kinda like this.

He cuts you with the knife... .you get cut with the knife... .wash rinse repeat.  For some reason this dynamic works for both of you.  You are beginning to change that... .and beginning to understand there is a different way.

Given that you have seen the power of the tools in your relationship so far... .(seriously... .there is hope in this... right?)

What do you think will happen when he uses his knife... and you don't get cut?



  In the part of the world where I was born, to clearify, being Jewish isn’t a religious practice. It’s ethnicity.
People who haven’t practiced Judaism for generations, as mine, still considered to be Jews and that is written in their passports.
 

I would hope you can acknowledge that others have a different point of view.  How many other ethnicities have a covenant with God?

Why not locate Israel in a different part of the world?  Why is Israel where it is?



 I know that it isn’t going to be pretty for a while.


BPDish stuff will likely be here for a while... .so... .other than that... .stay away from predicting the future.



   it frightens me and belittles me in front of my children

He shouldn't do this... .but he does.  This is something to roleplay in therapy... .and I would defer to your therapist... .but I can see an eventual point where

1.  He belittles you in front of your children.
2.  You send kids to their rooms and then you leave his presence as well.
3.  He gets to react to you taking action on your values regarding people belitting you in front of your children or not.


Note:  I believe eventually this will be a "hill you will and should die on".  I do not believe you have the skill or are ready to take action on this yet  Please let your T guide you.


 
I feel no desire going and pretending to have a religious extaze when I hear all those things before and after.

Who specifically has asked anyone to pretend?  I certainly have a hard time thinking about where "pretending" is ever helpful.

What I actually feel, is an overwhelming need to take my kids and flea (fight or flight natural response that I work hard at suppressing)

IF YOU need to take space... .take it.  Please leave others out of this.  

Another part of T that will be uncomfortable.  When you realize that you have a "normal" feeling to you and you start to realize that you want to do something to "fix" that feeling and you REALLY want to do that, yet you are understanding on some level that what you want to do is NOT helpful.

Grappling with your part ... your actions... .etc etc is not comfortable.    

FF
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« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2018, 10:10:53 AM »

  crucifiction and rebirth isn’t something that his mind can tolerate. 


Right... .many peoples minds can't... or need this to be done in an age appropriate way... .or will spend a lot of time grappling with these (an other religious things).  And... .that many people come to different conclusions or beliefs about Crucifixion and rebirth... .and other religious issues.



To be clear... .the way it was explained in this post and in a previous post (psychologist said no religion)... .is very very very different.

Am I accurate is saying that what your psychologist means is that, like many other areas in life, religious expression/experience may look very different for your child... .than it does to other children.

FF
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« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2018, 10:32:59 AM »


I would think the entire question of what YOU do with regards to religion, and going to church or not... .is an issue that you "slow down" on... .reflect on for a while... .and spend time with your therapist sorting out how you feel about your religious beliefs... .

I would specifically ask for your Ts thoughts on how much time and brainpower you should spend considering your husbands beliefs.






Please read this... .

Then read it again with an idea of separating out stuff to put in a separate bucket.  There can be lots of buckets here.

And... .seriously... .there needs to be a discussion in therapy about what you do with "crazy a$$" stuff that BPDish people say... .

Let's be clear... .what are the chances that your husband is actually going to "continue hitlers work"?  I'm not at all condoning anything your hubby says... .but... .I hope you can agree that the way YOU have been working through what YOU do... when other people say wacky stuff is not working for YOU.

I get it... wouldn't life be easier if he didn't say crazy stuff.    Chances that he is going to stop?

Especially when he gets such strong reactions from you that are in some fashion "fulfilling a need in a dysfunctional way"




https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-recognizing-criticism-contempt-defensiveness-and-stonewalling/


Since we are being religious... .let's look at the "four horesman of the apocalypse."

I'm going to be frank with you.  It's clear you despise your husband.   If it's clear to us... what do you suppose the chances are he understands that you feel that way?




Likely a good topic for therapy.  There are bad things in this world you should NOT take personally... .and there are things you SHOULD take personally.  

Why does this matter?

The relationship dynamic that you and your hubby has goes kinda like this.

He cuts you with the knife... .you get cut with the knife... .wash rinse repeat.  For some reason this dynamic works for both of you.  You are beginning to change that... .and beginning to understand there is a different way.

Given that you have seen the power of the tools in your relationship so far... .(seriously... .there is hope in this... right?)

What do you think will happen when he uses his knife... and you don't get cut?



I would hope you can acknowledge that others have a different point of view.  How many other ethnicities have a covenant with God?

Why not locate Israel in a different part of the world?  Why is Israel where it is?




BPDish stuff will likely be here for a while... .so... .other than that... .stay away from predicting the future.



He shouldn't do this... .but he does.  This is something to roleplay in therapy... .and I would defer to your therapist... .but I can see an eventual point where

1.  He belittles you in front of your children.
2.  You send kids to their rooms and then you leave his presence as well.
3.  He gets to react to you taking action on your values regarding people belitting you in front of your children or not.


Note:  I believe eventually this will be a "hill you will and should die on".  I do not believe you have the skill or are ready to take action on this yet  Please let your T guide you.


 
Who specifically has asked anyone to pretend?  I certainly have a hard time thinking about where "pretending" is ever helpful.

IF YOU need to take space... .take it.  Please leave others out of this.  

Another part of T that will be uncomfortable.  When you realize that you have a "normal" feeling to you and you start to realize that you want to do something to "fix" that feeling and you REALLY want to do that, yet you are understanding on some level that what you want to do is NOT helpful.

Grappling with your part ... your actions... .etc etc is not comfortable.    

FF

@formflier, I appreciate your honest observance and voice of reason. Yes, you are absolutely correct on all of the aspects. I have my own very complicated relationship with the Devine, which is irrelevant in this contest. To me it boils down to live by what you preach, or have a seat. Agnostic, is the way I like to think of myself. If we all have two pairs of eyes, two kidneys, one heart and one brain I refuse to believe that one religion is “more righteous” then the other. Instead of separating people, I choose to see things that are fundamental and universal in all of us, including my own family. I want to see my children united in their desire to show compassion and love for people of all backgrounds, religions and ethnicities. My uBPDh’s approach is if you aren’t with me, you are enemy. It’s hard to believe he is anti- Semitic, although just like racism it exists in the world. Perhaps it’s more political statement and geo economical issue for him. Would he do/say/ the same things if I didn’t react, I’m not sure.
Regarding dispising, yes, it’s clear to me that i non verbally send that message to him, which he very well receives and ampts up the volume. I need to stop fighting him, without realizing it, I have been non validating and passive aggressive with him. My boundaries have been crossed and I couldn’t recognize it. I should have left every time he started, but I didn’t. Now I have those hateful words stuck in my head. Perhaps I just can’t find the evidence of his love for me, at the moment. The fact that I’m nothing but a habit and convenience for him. Maybe it’s my own believe that I’m like a parasite that won’t let go of the host, that saddens me. It’s just like T told me, I don’t believe I’m worthy of love. Thus, I’m begging for it with an empty cup. Tonight he will be going to church, I have not made up my mind if I will accompany him there. I think it’s best if I don’t. My sullen disappointing gaze won’t help him find his inner peace and bring him to his base line. I can’t help but judge him, I accept this as my flaw. My schema dictates that a deeply religious person shouldn’t have any hate within them. I will read up on the 4 horses
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« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2018, 11:38:09 AM »

I have my own very complicated relationship with the Devine, which is irrelevant in this contest. 

Or... perhaps it is the most relevant topic of all.



FF
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« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2018, 03:31:01 PM »

Snowglobe

Can you see this pattern?   Your husband lands on a very highly charged,  emotionally fraught, difficult topic and expresses himself inappropriately displaying his distorted thinking.    Adultery, finances, religion, gun violence, the Shoah.    and you react in a highly charged emotionally fraught way.  and round and around it goes.

I understand why he does that.   I understand what's in it for him.   He gets to dump his intense and harmful emotions.   He gets to shift the power dynamic, to one where he feels more powerful.   He creates a world of chaos that matches the chaos he feels internally.

What's in this cycle for you?    Why do you accept his bellicose nonsense as legitimate?   When he drives a conversation off a cliff why do your thoughts follow his right off the cliff?

Let's unpack this some more okay?

Excerpt
what you do with "crazy a$$" stuff that BPDish people say... .

Let's be clear... .what are the chances that your husband is actually going to "continue hitlers work"?  I'm not at all condoning anything your hubby says... .but... .I hope you can agree that the way YOU have been working through what YOU do... when other people say wacky stuff is not working for YOU.

I get it... wouldn't life be easier if he didn't say crazy stuff.    Chances that he is going to stop?

Especially when he gets such strong reactions from you that are in some fashion "fulfilling a need in a dysfunctional way"


I am also not condoning the statements your husband makes.   To me, in my opinion they are abusive and deliberately so.    It appears he pushes on these type of outrageous statements until you react and then he has the satisfaction of saying and thinking 'oh look how badly she is acting'.

Stop joining him in distorted thinking.   When he says some of his outlandish stuff, stop and think.   Try to isolate where you reaction is coming from.   Ask yourself if the thing you are frightened about is real or not real.    Is the thing that you are frightened about happening right now, in this moment?

Find a way, any way to challenge that what he says or thinks is 1) a valid description of your reality, or 2) predictive of something that will happen soon.

What do you think you should do when he says the next wacky thing?   

'ducks
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« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2018, 04:09:44 PM »

Snowglobe

Can you see this pattern?   Your husband lands on a very highly charged,  emotionally fraught, difficult topic and expresses himself inappropriately displaying his distorted thinking.    Adultery, finances, religion, gun violence, the Shoah.    and you react in a highly charged emotionally fraught way.  and round and around it goes.

I understand why he does that.   I understand what's in it for him.   He gets to dump his intense and harmful emotions.   He gets to shift the power dynamic, to one where he feels more powerful.   He creates a world of chaos that matches the chaos he feels internally.

What's in this cycle for you?    Why do you accept his bellicose nonsense as legitimate?   When he drives a conversation off a cliff why do your thoughts follow his right off the cliff?

Let's unpack this some more okay?

I am also not condoning the statements your husband makes.   To me, in my opinion they are abusive and deliberately so.    It appears he pushes on these type of outrageous statements until you react and then he has the satisfaction of saying and thinking 'oh look how badly she is acting'.

Stop joining him in distorted thinking.   When he says some of his outlandish stuff, stop and think.   Try to isolate where you reaction is coming from.   Ask yourself if the thing you are frightened about is real or not real.    Is the thing that you are frightened about happening right now, in this moment?

Find a way, any way to challenge that what he says or thinks is 1) a valid description of your reality, or 2) predictive of something that will happen soon.

What do you think you should do when he says the next wacky thing?  

'ducks

Dear @babyducks,
Thank you, your validation soothes me. Your explanation allows me to feel a glimpse of compassion towards him, instead of hurt and anger.  It exactly as you say, this torment within him is being expressed outwards on me, and things I feel important about. Kids, religion, fidelity, he hits all of my boundaries with a precision of a sniper. His remarks puts the very idea of my existence into question, when he says “why didn’t Hitler finish what his started?.” I hear “if he would be successful, you could never come into existence, you aren’t worthy to be alive”. On an emotional level I almost fight for my right to be alive. I react negatively, and he allows himself to shift his hate from internal source to external - me. I’m being stonewalled as we speak. He always does it during the cycle. He doesn’t look me in the face, it’s easier for him to continue hating and emotionally abusing me when he doesn’t see the pain and anguish he is creating. We are acting like two shadows, I’m making half a$$ attempts into speaking to him, try to hold on to conversation, he sluggishly comes to the bedroom and lies beside me. In the middle of the night, as I shift and move in bed he begins to yell “don’t touch me, move to the other side of the bed”. Half asleep, but already frightened I mumble “we don’t speak to each other rudely”. I wake up, my heart pounds from unexpected rude awakening, he drifts off, or pretends to... .he doesn’t sleep very much at all, as long as I’ve known him, he gets up 2-3 times at night to eat. In the morning he complains from being tired.
Why do my thoughts follow him from the cliff?. Hard to say, maybe that’s what “normal” seemed to be for me. I’m used to hearing all kinds of nonsense from my BPD and np parents, and tried to make sense of it. I try to validate him, and usually do. In these instances, however he looks for a bold spot in my armour and hits it precisely. I don’t have an answer as to what to do, other then leave his presence when he does it. If I’m not jedying, what do I do when he dumps this all over me. No, I don’t want my kids to hear the things he says, no, I don’t want them to believe that life full of suffering is the right one to live. My uBPDh has never been content with what he had, finances or relationships. While chasing after another luxury, whether it’s a car, house or a rifle, the high never lasts long. He tries to rub it in other people faces, only to be disappointed, no one cares. He tries to put people down emotionally, look at me, I’m so accomplished, far beyond anyone, leaves people who truly cared for him confused, as to why he puts them down and even brings this comparison into conversation. He is miserable 80% of the time, while I try to be the whole circus de solei for him, distracting, entertaining, soothing, providing assurance and unconditional love. When high, which he is about every 4 months, on cocaine, he tells me that he sees that I’m a “saint woman” and questions how can I stay with him? He tells me that he doesn’t have a back up plan, and that he can’t imagine being without me. Yet, our day to day life is filled with him trying to destroy any hope of growing old together.
Can you help me unpack?
Next Time he says something along the same line I will reply in the same manner I do when he tells me how badly he wants to have sex with a hot 18 yo brunette- I’m not listening to nonsense. If he continues I reply in the same neutral tone, the same statement. I will try to keep my poker face, maybe in time some of the topics will become not as exiting to press for?
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« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2018, 04:10:31 PM »

 He gets to dump his intense and harmful emotions.   He gets to shift the power dynamic, to one where he feels more powerful.   He creates a world of chaos that matches the chaos he feels internally.

    Why do you accept his bellicose nonsense as legitimate?    

Bellicose nonsense... .that is a perfect description.

So... .I'll add that personality disordered people "see" or "experience" the world in a vastly different way than we do.  They appear to spend a lot of time and effort "bending" the world around them into something that matches their "vision" or "experience".

Can you see that?  

Now... add on top of that, that they honestly don't "think that through".  Said another way, I don't think there is a thought process that says "I'm going to do this so my wife acts crazy and my world is "right" for me".  It's a "emotional process not a "rational thought process"

Last:  Your "battlefield" (with your husband) is not in his rational thoughts.  It's in his emotions... .or his ability to regulate those emotions.  

Most of this is his deal... .but YOU need to gain an understanding of how YOUR actions "affect" his emotions/emotional stability.  

FF
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« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2018, 04:18:08 PM »

Bellicose nonsense... .that is a perfect description.

So... .I'll add that personality disordered people "see" or "experience" the world in a vastly different way than we do.  They appear to spend a lot of time and effort "bending" the world around them into something that matches their "vision" or "experience".

Can you see that?  

Now... add on top of that, that they honestly don't "think that through".  Said another way, I don't think there is a thought process that says "I'm going to do this so my wife acts crazy and my world is "right" for me".  It's a "emotional process not a "rational thought process"

Last:  Your "battlefield" (with your husband) is not in his rational thoughts.  It's in his emotions... .or his ability to regulate those emotions.  

Most of this is his deal... .but YOU need to gain an understanding of how YOUR actions "affect" his emotions/emotional stability.  

FF
@formflier,
Yes, thank you, I have a delayed comprehension and understanding of when the switch occurs. The switch doesn’t get flipped with a warning, I usually attend to him and his words with careful attention and consideration. It’s exhausting to be constantly on guard. By the time I realize that it’s a provocation it’s already too late, I’ve shown him fear, disbelief and bewilderment. How do I stop the bleeding in a current case? How do I approach him when he isn’t speaking to me or looking my way?
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« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2018, 04:20:02 PM »


Next Time he says something along the same line I will reply in the same manner I do when he tells me how badly he wants to have sex with a hot 18 yo brunette- I’m not listening to nonsense.  

Certainly discuss in detail with your T... .

I would suggest... .

"I'm not going to listen to your bellicose nonsense.  I'll be in the kitchen if you want to talk about a pleasant topic"  

Leave... .

I would suggest it be said calmly.  I don't think you should express hurt or disappointment.  :)ispassionate would be accurate.

Now... .I'm aware of and would support many other responses.  I'm sure your T can help you through them.

But in general... .think of this analogy.  Your hubby is coming up to you and saying "Can I dump some emotional garbage on you?"  you are saying "no"... .

Let him connect the dots... .

FF
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« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2018, 04:28:04 PM »

 How do I approach him when he isn’t speaking to me or looking my way?

Ummm... .in general... .why would you want to approach him.  The logical, rational and normal outcome of being an a$$hole is that people don't want to be around you... .don't save him from himself

That being said... .there is value in understanding how to "dip your toe in the water" and see where he is at.  Sometimes you really need to discuss something, if even to figure out if you need to act unilaterally.

I use "the water glass trick"

I usually get two fresh glasses of ice water.  (one for me... one for her) I walk in and put the water next to her... .take a sip or two of mine and then talk about some sort of admin detail.

"Hey... .we've been talking about trying that new salmon recipe for a while.  Care if I pick up what we need and we try it tomorrow for dinner?"

From the response... .you'll get an idea if "it's over"... ."still up there"... .or "still going higher".

Make decisions about your life (for next day or two) based on what you get.

This doesn't "fix" anything... .it's a pretty bulletproof way of "taking the temp"... .with an built in offramp should things go bad.  "interesting... .I'm heading to the grocery store... ."  Yet... .if "it's over", you can sit and talk more.

FF
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« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2018, 04:29:05 PM »

Hi Snowglobe

Why do my thoughts follow him from the cliff?. Hard to say, maybe that’s what “normal” seemed to be for me. I’m used to hearing all kinds of nonsense from my BPD and np parents, and tried to make sense of it.

I think that's important.    You are used to hearing all kinds of nonsense from your BPD and npd parents and trying to make sense of it.   When you were a kid, your comfort, your success and probably your survival depended on how well you could make sense of it.  

That's not true anymore Snowglobe.   You are not a kid and you have the talents and skills to make yourself comfortable, successful and thrive without having to translate distorted reality into emotional currency.

Still with me?   that's a lot to digest.    You grew up in a traumatic environment.   I did too.   Things were never what they seemed to be on the surface.    There were always a lot of tense under currents running around the room.   I got conditioned to them.

Being conditioned to them doesn't make them real.   No one gets to over write my reality with theirs anymore.

I agree with FF when your husband comes up and wants to dump more bellicose nonsense, or emotional garbage or whatever you want to call it, calmly and compassionately disconnect from the conversation.   Leave.   Got to the kitchen.   Once in the kitchen work to calm your own emotional reactions.    Go to the kitchen and tell yourself what a wonderful job you are doing at making better choices.

make sense?

'ducks
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« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2018, 08:30:18 AM »

Hi Snowglobe

I think that's important.    You are used to hearing all kinds of nonsense from your BPD and npd parents and trying to make sense of it.   When you were a kid, your comfort, your success and probably your survival depended on how well you could make sense of it.  

That's not true anymore Snowglobe.   You are not a kid and you have the talents and skills to make yourself comfortable, successful and thrive without having to translate distorted reality into emotional currency.

Still with me?   that's a lot to digest.    You grew up in a traumatic environment.   I did too.   Things were never what they seemed to be on the surface.    There were always a lot of tense under currents running around the room.   I got conditioned to them.

Being conditioned to them doesn't make them real.   No one gets to over write my reality with theirs anymore.

I agree with FF when your husband comes up and wants to dump more bellicose nonsense, or emotional garbage or whatever you want to call it, calmly and compassionately disconnect from the conversation.   Leave.   Got to the kitchen.   Once in the kitchen work to calm your own emotional reactions.    Go to the kitchen and tell yourself what a wonderful job you are doing at making better choices.

make sense?

'ducks
Dear @babyducks, thank you, I will be more cautious to listen attentively, and try to separate real from “reactive”.
What a night, I must tell you, things came to the forefront and center and now my uBPDh is the star of his own circus.
Last night, upon his own insistence, I agreed to come to church. Our mutual friends, who happened to practice the same faith encouraged us to visit a remote location of a wooden, candle lit, perish for an intimate and personal service. We agreed and came with them. The church was everything they said it is, standing in a beautiful picturistic spot, it was a picture of tranquility and peace. We walked in, and the site took my breath away, it was very intimate, not a soul other then the priest and the church quire. First time, in a very long time I prayed. I prayed to give me strength to accept the kids I can’t change and focus on what I can, I prayed for G-d to give me kindness and compassion to forgive him and myself, myself for putting 100 %, and him not putting any effort, I tried to get rid myself of resentment and bitterness. I prayed and had a crying session, realeasing negativity around and within me. When the service ended the priest invited all of us to his house for tea. It was a lovely evening, where he preached about modern struggles of the church, interrupted only by my uBPDh talking about himself and his business and his success and his view and position on the religion. He never gave a chance for any of us (3 people) to intersect. It was narcissistic rant if I ever saw one. Me, I, successful businessman, this is what I do for living, these are my views on science and religion. It ended as you probably expect, with a priest hinting, or more openly asking him for a donation cheque to write off the tax. No surprise there. From there, we went out for late dinner, where he continued speaking religion. He went on saying that because that perish speaks in both, our mother language and English, and some service is in English he isn’t used to it and now wants to go to “the church he went to as a teenager”. He was speaking about his family a lot, his brother, and then I finally had all the dots connected in my mind... .it’s his way of reaching out to his foo and satisfying their dysfunctional family dynamics. All the while we were “poor” for simplicity reasons, they didn’t want much to do with us. They were canceling plans, didn’t want to help with our children, his brother high on marijuana 24/7 had to be kept at bay, for the sale and well being of my children. Many stories to share, but you get the picture, high and drunk person with 3 children and emotionally abused wife, who gets yelled at and belittled every time we see them.
Now, that he “made it”, they will finally see the use and purpose in him, and he can satisfy his push and pull dynamic. Wow. What a revaluation. It was never the church, it was never religion. All this time it was about “coming home” for him, something I also dreaded. And I finally see that i can’t stop this, nor will I try. I also understand that I don’t want to be with a person so shallow and sick. So I’m going to focus on getting me and the kids out safely.
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« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2018, 08:39:50 AM »

 Go to the kitchen and tell yourself what a wonderful job you are doing at making better choices.

I made the habit of being "deliberately kind" to myself.

Perhaps it was an extra cup of coffee, or a (small) sweet treat, or perhaps I would take myself out to breakfast and linger over coffee while doing reading or paperwork that I took with me.

Basically... something extra that I would enjoy as a "reward" for making a good or perhaps just "different" choice.

Sometimes you only know "what not to do"... .an so you try something different... cross your fingers and watch for results.  Evaluate... .wash rinse repeat.

An example... ."so I'm not going to follow him off the cliff... .so I will (fill in the blank)"  Don't be surprised if fill in the blank takes a while.

FF
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« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2018, 08:44:32 AM »


Can you read your last post again?

How much time do you spend "connecting and explaining his dots"?  How much time connecting and explaining yours?

Let's fast forward to a (notional) interview with you and with him.

If we asked him to connect and explain his dots... .do you think they would look like how you connect them... for him?

If we asked you to connect and explain your dots... do you think they would like like how you connected them a few days earlier?

FF
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« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2018, 09:05:35 AM »

Can you read your last post again?

How much time do you spend "connecting and explaining his dots"?  How much time connecting and explaining yours?

Let's fast forward to a (notional) interview with you and with him.

If we asked him to connect and explain his dots... .do you think they would look like how you connect them... for him?

If we asked you to connect and explain your dots... do you think they would like like how you connected them a few days earlier?

FF
His dots came rather quickly, as the whole picture infolded. He wasn’t content with the service or church, which he so eagerly sought out. It was the particular location and people that he is craving. He talked about them after, and the tooting his own horn, was rather repulsive in a narcissistic display. There wasn’t any humbleness or spirituality that I was expecting to see. If anything, I was surprised at my own reaction and thoughts I was observing while in the church. Paradoxically, I wanted to forgive and let go of resentment. I thank him for that. In terms of my own dots, I don’t think they are all connected yet... .I think that I’m reliving my childhood trauma of a wealthy father, forsaking me for his foo and leaving me and my mom broke and penniless. My mom wasn’t Jewish enough for my dad, as I’m not “Christian” enough for my uBPDh. My uBPDh is such a symbiosis of both, my mom and dad. He isn’t interested in me or my feelings, like my dad, demanding constant attention, np, and hot/cold just like my BPD mom. I’m living in fear of “returning” him to his foo, as they want him now. I’m waiting for the other shoe to drop, for 17 years. At times, I feel it would be easier if I cut him loose, and instead take the waiting part out.
If you asked him to connect the dots, I think he would tell you that he is depressed and out of control. That he is trying to go back to what sustained him during his challenging formative years. That I’m being a b$&ch and he has nothing in common with me. These are certainly things he expresses.
Nope, things wouldn’t look the same as I wrote initially, now my own trauma and pain is on the forefront of it all. I feel out of control and fear for what kind of choice he will make.
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« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2018, 09:15:16 AM »


If you asked him to connect the dots, I think he would tell you that he is depressed and out of control. That he is trying to go back to what sustained him during his challenging formative years. That I’m being a b$&ch and he has nothing in common with me. These are certainly things he expresses.
 

You "think" he would tell you that?  Did you guys not have a conversation where he shared this thoughts about the church service?

How was it you were able to connect his dots?

FF
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« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2018, 10:10:00 AM »

You "think" he would tell you that?  Did you guys not have a conversation where he shared this thoughts about the church service?

How was it you were able to connect his dots?

FF
He is sharing it openly with our mutual friends, rational is to why he is seeking the church experience. Regarding his opinion of me and the our differences he shares with me
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« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2018, 12:20:30 PM »


This is actually a hopeful development... a place that you two can potentially use as a conversation starter.

He is sharing it openly with our mutual friends, rational is to why he is seeking the church experience. 

I think he would tell you that he is depressed and out of control. That he is trying to go back to what sustained him during his challenging formative years. 


So... .to make sure I have this right... .within earshot of you he used the word "depressed" and "out of control" as a reason to get back to church and what sustained him in his "challenging" formative years.

Did he use the word challenging?  How does he usually describe his formative years?

FF
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« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2018, 05:31:00 PM »

Snowglobe,

His dots came rather quickly,

What happens quite frequently in high conflict relationships is the more dramatic acting out partner is used as a shield to protect us from our own issues.    That's pretty easy to do.  Often their behavior is so shocking it's easy to focus on them, and figure them out.     I'll continue to suggest that your turn the focus on you.   What you want.    What you can do better.    What's important to you.

He talked about them after, and the tooting his own horn, was rather repulsive in a narcissistic display.

So why did you stay and listen to the narcissistic display?   Could you have excused yourself and gone to the ladies room.   Browsed a book shelf?    Gone outside and checked on the kids via the phone?    You have choices.


In terms of my own dots, I don’t think they are all connected yet... .I think that I’m reliving my childhood trauma

What does this mean to you?    What do you plan on doing with this insight.    Which I think is a good one by the way.    How can you use this to make changes that will make you more comfortable in your daily life now?

my childhood trauma of a wealthy father, forsaking me for his foo and leaving me and my mom broke and penniless. My mom wasn’t Jewish enough for my dad, as I’m not “Christian” enough for my uBPDh. My uBPDh is such a symbiosis of both, my mom and dad.

when marriages collapse it is almost never just one person and just one problem.   it's just not that simple.   

Have you ever heard of repetition compulsion Snowglobe?    I'll give you the short explanation but I would encourage you to explore it more fully.   

Excerpt
Repetition compulsion is a psychological phenomenon in which a person repeats a traumatic event or its circumstances over and over again. This includes reenacting the event or putting oneself in situations where the event is likely to happen again.

People who experienced trauma in their young lives tend to repeat it in the adulthood looking for the resolution they didn't get as children.

My mother was bipolar.    And so was my Ex Partner.    and that was no accident.    I distinctly remember when my Ex told me she was bipolar.    I thought to myself Oh Good Something I Can Handle.    and no I couldn't.   Not any better as an adult than I did as a kid.

I’m living in fear of “returning” him to his foo, as they want him now. I’m waiting for the other shoe to drop, for 17 years.  ... /... /... .I feel out of control and fear for what kind of choice he will make.

I understand.    Here is what I know about fear.    Fear only strengthens itself.   Fear will strengthen itself until we  work to see things differently.

There is a lot of fear in your posts.    When people we are close to are impulsive, chaotic, emotional, we fear.    That's normal.    What's not such a good idea is to linger in that fear for a long time.   We have choices, options, strengths,  insights.    There are ways to shift perspectives and loosen the bonds of fear.

Many of us do that by cultivating our wise mind.    That place between logic and emotion where we can be in touch with our feeling but not ruled by them.     

What do you think?   

'ducks
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« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2018, 07:07:09 AM »

Snowglobe,

What happens quite frequently in high conflict relationships is the more dramatic acting out partner is used as a shield to protect us from our own issues.    That's pretty easy to do.  Often their behavior is so shocking it's easy to focus on them, and figure them out.     I'll continue to suggest that your turn the focus on you.   What you want.    What you can do better.    What's important to you.

So why did you stay and listen to the narcissistic display?   Could you have excused yourself and gone to the ladies room.   Browsed a book shelf?    Gone outside and checked on the kids via the phone?    You have choices.


What does this mean to you?    What do you plan on doing with this insight.    Which I think is a good one by the way.    How can you use this to make changes that will make you more comfortable in your daily life now?

when marriages collapse it is almost never just one person and just one problem.   it's just not that simple.   

Have you ever heard of repetition compulsion Snowglobe?    I'll give you the short explanation but I would encourage you to explore it more fully.   

People who experienced trauma in their young lives tend to repeat it in the adulthood looking for the resolution they didn't get as children.

My mother was bipolar.    And so was my Ex Partner.    and that was no accident.    I distinctly remember when my Ex told me she was bipolar.    I thought to myself Oh Good Something I Can Handle.    and no I couldn't.   Not any better as an adult than I did as a kid.

I understand.    Here is what I know about fear.    Fear only strengthens itself.   Fear will strengthen itself until we  work to see things differently.

There is a lot of fear in your posts.    When people we are close to are impulsive, chaotic, emotional, we fear.    That's normal.    What's not such a good idea is to linger in that fear for a long time.   We have choices, options, strengths,  insights.    There are ways to shift perspectives and loosen the bonds of fear.

Many of us do that by cultivating our wise mind.    That place between logic and emotion where we can be in touch with our feeling but not ruled by them.     

What do you think?   

'ducks
Thank you @ducks,
I see how my childhood trauma is affecting my life more then 30 years later. Today I will speak to my T about that. I will also look for dbt therapy, as I can see that I’m easily swayed and persuaded to my own mood destabilizing when he is out of control. Mindfulness would certainly ease the reality for me. He has been the only consistent male figure in my life, so my overwhelming expectation is for him to live me, as my np dad should have. Bad idea, I know... .I’m also confused and catatonic in regards to what to do with my life. T and my friends suggest “getting busy” with my own life. To me “being busy” on top of kids, is getting back into the workforce. Yet, when I do occupy myself with something other then uBPDh, he dysregulates and wants to “divorce” me immediately, because I’m “useless” to him. Cooking, cleaning, taking care of kids, earning income and contributing to family budget is “not what he wants in the relationships”. Being “useful” can’t be described, I don’t think he know what it means other then taking care of him, babysitting him and being there at his back and call.
In terms of recreating the reality based on my previous experience sounds close to home. The fear of loosing him is amplified by the fear of the consequences for the children. No doubt, based on his behaviour and overall stats for no and BPD they will befall as collateral damage, to him “hurting me”. This “punish you”, “hurt you”, “buckle up, I’ll give it to you 100 times more” has been in our relationships from the get go. I no longer blame myself for not picking up the signs for dominant and emotionally controlling relationships. How could a 17 yo, who never knew normal, have an insight to what “normal ought to look like”. It was learning on the job, so to say.
@ducks, he also did something that again, surprised me, in a painful way. I saw him browsing through signnet rings on internet. While driving in the car I wanted to engage him in a non conflict conversation and admittedly satisfy my curiosity. So I asked him about it. He replied that he was thinking of designing his own ring with symbolism of the “home country” and his “family tree”. Over the 17 years he repeatedly told me that he hates jewelry, and doesn’t even wear a watch because it get on the way of working on the computer. All the things I ever got him, like bracelets, watches sit in the jewelry boxes. I continued to ask, almost as if observing myself, and noting my sado masochistic tendency: “what finger will you wear it on?” (I know he hates jewelry and only wore wedding band all these years” . “Wedding finger”, he replied, (shock, pain, displeasure and righteous rage raised in my mind). Me: “ but people are supposed to be wearing their wedding band on that finger?” (Our marriage and it’s symbolism is supposed to remind us daily and be on top of priority lists, in my mind”. Him: “I will wear what I want”, curtains closed. I sulked in my seat, probably visibly annoyed and bruding. Everything that our marriage stands for is being put into question, is there even one? If he is free to choose if and when to display it in the outside world, why do I need to rush home, follow him, like a faithful servant only to be challenged, tested for loyalty and commitment?. We are in such a bad place, it’s as if we are both bleeding out profusely. Every day it feels that the gap is growing wider between us and I don’t know how to close it. When I try, he is either immuned to my attempts or finds something that picks at the things that matter to me and tears through them. How do I stop the bleeding?
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« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2018, 07:20:36 AM »

  How do I stop the bleeding?

Stop poking around in the wound... . is step 1.

Figuring out how to consistently hold a bandage on it is step 2.

I would say for you "avoiding" lines of questioning where you are "proving" or "investigating" is critical. 

What if you had said "Oh that sounds interesting... .it would mean a lot to me to show the family crest when we get home"

In other words... .instead of "investigating" and combing through his responses until you find information you can use to justify a negative view... .be deliberate about building a bridge towards him.

Listen... .we all have responses and "stuff" that if someone looks hard enough, they will find "bad responses".  Add in BPDish stuff... .and (as you know)... .you don't have to look to far. 

You know it's there... .why keep looking to prove it still there?

FF
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« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2018, 07:25:05 AM »

We are in such a bad place, it’s as if we are both bleeding out profusely. Every day it feels that the gap is growing wider between us and I don’t know how to close it. 

Remember the comment that babyducks made about how a partners shocking behavior can be used to mask our own stuff or "hide behind" so we don't have to deal with our own stuff. (hopefully I got close to her intent).

Well... .I'm going to suggest that you find it more comfortable to be in dysfunction "with" him... than alone... .or perhaps to experience negative feelings with him... .than alone.

I was struck that "we are both bleeding out" as opposed to "I am bleeding out... "

Here is the thing... .he seems to be focused on "happy things" that are working for him.  Church, rings, building a company... .

Do you really think he would tell someone he is "bleeding out".  While I certainly don't know... .I'm making an educated guess... .I don't think he would describe it or feel it that way.

Thoughts?

FF
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