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Author Topic: One day home and back into chaos  (Read 616 times)
RolandOfEld
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« on: April 16, 2018, 07:47:24 PM »

My trip was intensely stressful as expected but also quite great. I needed to breathe the air of a different country and it put lots of things in perspective. Only some brief and mild dysregulation on my wife's part.

But one day home and back into chaos. We got into an argument Sunday night about how I didn't buy my wife Tokyo banana cakes at the airport (I offered to buy it and took one but she said it was too expensive and put it back, but evidently my face showed how unwilling I was). She went to watch TV, and I was on my way to make amends when my daughter woke up crying covered in diarrhea. I had to wash her and hand wash all the sheets and clothes and blankets and by the time I was finished my wife had gone to bed and the bedroom door was locked. She had also taken all the towels. I went out to check my wallet which I had put on top of our shoe cabinet and found my bank card, cash, and ID were all missing. I slept outside and the next morning knocked on the door several times to ask for them back but no answer. All my pants were also in the bedroom, though this is where they usually are, she didn't take them and might not have known I had no other pairs outside the room.

So I left the house in shorts and stopped by the police station to report that my wife had taken my things again. Evidentally the last time I had gone to the wrong station for my area and the cop there drove me to the right one. This time the officer in charge was fully willing to take my statement for record and listen to the situation in detail, even when I explained to him about BPD. He gave me his personal card and said I could call for him or his team directly with future incidents. So it was a happy result to gain a new ally.

I took the morning off from work and waited for the department store across my office to open so I could buy some pants to wear to work; thankfully I have some cash I've stored in a hidden account for this kind of situation. Towards the end of the work day I messaged my wife explaining I had gone to the police and as long as my things were on the shoe cabinet when I came home it need go no further and we didn't even need to talk about it. I gave her the officer's number if she wanted to confirm I went there. She exploded saying she had not touched my wallet that the kids had been playing with it and she had put it back without checking it. It all sounded extremely unlikely to me since I had been home all day and never seen them playing with it and only the things I needed were missing. I explained even if IF what she said was true, she had taken my things on countless occasions in the past so this time reporting to the police counted for those times. She keeps insisting those things are in the past and she doesn't do it any more (2 weeks).

I came home with a huge headache and she immediately wanted to search my bag and anything that might have my stuff. While we were looking together my son did in fact put a chair next to the shoe cabinet and start playing with things including our passports from the trip. We went back and suddenly my ID card was on the chair he'd been standing on. I accused my wife of putting it there while I was looking, though its possible it fell out of my passport when my son picked it up. She went crazy at this, started crying, begging me to believe her, locking herself in the kitchen with a knife asking if she needed to kill herself or cut off her hair to prove it to me. She also accused me of putting it there and of hiding everything in the first place.

Eventually she calmed down and went into the bedroom to listen to music and relax. I took care of the kids while my headache kept pounding. They started screaming again, demanding rice and demanding kiwi and yelling at each other. I got so angry and just ripped up the kiwi with my hands instead of cutting it and gave it to them. My daughter dropped the bowl on the floor and it smashed. I finally lost it and screamed like an animal. I put my daughter to bed and my son went to the bedroom with my wife. I heard him explaining how daddy got angry cuz little sister broke the bowl. I went in the bedroom to get something and saw my wife looking at me in a way I could only describe as fright. I noticed my headache had stopped the second I screamed. I've been having these stress headaches more and more recently. We all went to sleep without a word.      

Right now I'm in an extreme state of doubt. I never thought my wife lied before but now I think she can do it quite well. It's possible my kids messed with the wallet. But I think it's possible that her denial is so strong that she did it and actually believes she didn't. I knew there would be consequences to going to the police. I just really hope she stops. Till now the cash and bank card have not emerged.

So I'm pretty burnt out and scared today. I'm scared about the fact that I'm getting worse. I'm afraid I will lose it and hit my kids some day. I am working on my codependent rage with my counselor. I don't really know what to do right now.

~ROE        
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Speck
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« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2018, 09:43:48 PM »

ROE,

What an incredible tale. Wow. I am so sorry you're having such a hard time. It all sounds terribly frustrating, and I can understand why you're feeling out of control.

The constant stress you're under has morphed into actual physical ailments (stress headaches), and this is concerning. It means your blood pressure is so sky high during these episodes that the added turbulence is causing blood congestion in your brian... .enough to make it hurt. This can be very dangerous.

So... .do you have a safe, calm place to go when you feel a headache coming on?

Take care, ROE. We're here for you. Thanks for sharing. I'm so sorry things are this rough for you at home.


-Speck
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« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2018, 10:32:15 PM »

Tension headaches are cause by thinking a lot it sounds like you have a lot on your mind. Zoe I mentioned stress do you feel like it could be a fight or flight response ( feel like hitting or running away ) due to stress? That’s a stressful vacation, do you get help with the kids? I wouldn’t appreciate getting a looking from my SO when I’m trying to deal with everything and I’m enotionally spent.
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Fond memories, fella.


« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2018, 12:35:20 AM »

Roland,

It sounds like the return was even worse than the trip.  I am so sorry to hear that.  Trip returns were sometimes eventful in my family as well.

Have you discussed your problem with stress in front of the kids to the counselor?  He or she may be a mandatory reporter, so be careful with detail, but if you said that your wife was abusive at the same time your daughter broke a bowl and the kids were screaming, and you had a debilitating headache and felt overwhelmed, your counselor may be able to give you techniques to use.  Try searching on "calm safe place," look up the iChill app, and search on the "Community Resiliency Model."  The latter two are used by PTSD sufferers.

I found that the very few times I completely lost it were when my wife was applying a huge amount of pressure to me, sometimes creating an impossible situation or sabotaging me, at the same time the kids were acting out.  Like we're leaving for Easter church service in five minutes, that she's decided she won't leave unless the baby has white tights and it's my problem to find them, and I need to convince the three year old to change out of that horrible dress my mother gave her and into a nicer one.  That's a made up example since it's been so long, but it's a reasonable representation of the truth.  There were a few times like that where I ended up yelling very loudly and feeling horribly guilty later.

The thing I found most helpful was to identify the forces that were making the situation impossible.  It may have been an expectation of mine, one of my wife's, an external constraint, or many of those all at once.  Then I would just let one or more of those expectations go.  When you think about it, the only expectation that you cannot let go of is safety.  If I felt myself losing it, I'd stop and say, OK, the kids are safe.  What extra things are feasible in addition to safety, and what do I need to let go of?  Do you happen to remember the forces and expectations that all came at you at once right before you blew up?  Any that you could have let go of?

How old are your son and daughter?  Are they safe to leave in a room alone for a while?  In other words, could you have walked out of the room for a few minutes?

WW
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RolandOfEld
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« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2018, 01:54:24 AM »

Thank you to everyone for your support! I really missed it here while I was away.

Mutt I have a lot more on my mind than I should. I sometimes forget that most people only have to focus on doing their work and don't have to come up with strategies on how just to get to work.

WW you raised a vital question that made me think of something that hadn't even occurred to me in therapy today, during which I brought up the stress issue. I think the last thought / expectation that goes through my head every time I lose it is ("Everyone is going crazy because I'm a failure and so is the family I've created". It's a mixture of guilt, anger at myself for failing, and anger at my family members for failing and for not being "normal" like the families we watch on YouTube. Children screaming and breaking things is not so intolerable. A feeling of existential failure is.

I think I need to redefine "failure". They are small children who get crazy sometimes, not adults with drug problems. There are also many accomplishments to be celebrated, probably more than failures. I really really dig the idea of focusing on the most basic expectation, which is whether they are safe.

Speck and WW yes, in most cases I can leave the room, at least for a moment. Usually what stops me is the judgement of my wife. But I can work past that.  

~ROE
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« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2018, 01:20:29 PM »

  thankfully I have some cash I've stored in a hidden account for this kind of situation.          

Solid planning.

I remember feeling "confident" and perhaps even "pleased" back in the day when I had to do the "go bags" and that kind of thing.  In the midst of a sucky situation, it was awesome to be able to find a "good" feeling.

Hopefully... .you can find some solace there.

And... solid work on taking action... .going to police. 

What are you going to do... going forward... .to secure your stuff?

FF
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RolandOfEld
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« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2018, 02:29:52 AM »

Thanks FF. I'm considering putting together a go bag just for when she locks me out of the bedroom. The couch is tolerable, but I'm wondering if I should stay in a hotel the next time and tell her every time she locks me out I'll stay outside for two nights. When you have two little kids, the idea of one night in a hotel room is paradise. I'm learning to find ways to find some enjoyment during these dysregulation periods. The morning I took off from work and waited for the department store to open to buy pants, I had breakfast at McDonalds and read there for a little while. It was awesome, sad as that sounds. 

~ROE
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Fond memories, fella.


« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2018, 03:05:01 AM »

I'm considering putting together a go bag just for when she locks me out of the bedroom. The couch is tolerable, but I'm wondering if I should stay in a hotel the next time and tell her every time she locks me out I'll stay outside for two nights. When you have two little kids, the idea of one night in a hotel room is paradise.

Remember, with boundaries, the idea is not to control the other person's behavior, it's controlling your own to protect yourself.  Two nights sounds punitive and controlling.  One night sounds like the logical consequence of her actions, if there's nowhere to sleep at home.

Backing up a bit, you said you slept outside.  Do you mean outside outside, or outside the bedroom?  Give us some detail on the sleeping surface, level of shelter, level of comfort, etc.

I definitely was prepared to sleep outside the bedroom.  I'd hide pillows, blankets, etc. where I could get to them.  In plastic bags under the couch is one place to hide clothes.  A t-shirt or pillowcase is easier to hide than a pillow, and can be put on a decorative couch pillow to sleep on.

That's fantastic that you've identified that feeling of failure as one of the things that triggers you.  During PTSD recovery, therapists encourage clients to record the following information when they are triggered.  You can search for "TICES" and "PTSD" to find out more.  You may not be able to record all of these for a given incident, that is fine:

Trigger -- what triggered it?
Image -- what image did you have in your head?  May be something from your past, something you're worried about in the future, etc.
Cognition -- what was your negative thought about yourself?
Emotion -- what emotions were you feeling?
Sensation -- I think this is, "What sensations were you feeling in your body?"

My therapist adds a second "S" at the end, for "Scale" -- how badly were you triggered, on a scale of 1-10?

Back to the fact that you were feeling like a failure.  That totally makes sense that you would feel that way, given what's going on.  Mindfulness and the Buddhist principle of living in the moment come to mind here.  Any chance you could embrace the screaming kids and broken dishes and live in the moment, casting off existential worries?  That kind of craziness is the stuff of life.  You'll have some great stories to tell when you're older!  I still remember squatting down, holding a screaming baby on my left hip, while brushing the teeth of a squirming toddler with my right hand.  Those were the days!  Embrace the screaming.  Have a sense of humor about it.  You may even start laughing.  Perhaps you can get your kids to sing a loud ridiculous song with you to break the chaos and entrain them into a focused activity.  You said screaming got rid of your headache.  Perhaps you could teach them your college alma matter fight song and you all can belt it out at the top of your lungs to get rid of your headache.  Or the Beatles' Yellow Submarine, or... .

WW
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« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2018, 03:22:29 AM »

Hi WW, agree the hotel idea is a bit over the top. So far I've never been locked out of the house all night. Locked out of the house is rare and usually only lasts a few minutes. Locked out of bedroom is far more common. We have a couch (softer but little space to sleep on) and a mat on the floor (less soft but more space). I'm not totally against sleeping outside, in fact I find it a little freeing since I no longer associate it with shameful behavior on my part. Sometimes I try to have a blanket in there if I have the feeling I might face a lockout.

The PTSD materials are very helpful. The expectations mindset was a big help last night when my wife walked out the minute I got home and left me with the kids for most of the night. This was actually a more relaxing result. I just focused on safety and if I felt small things like making a mess provoking me I tried to let it go.

~ROE
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« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2018, 06:11:27 AM »

Thanks FF. I'm considering putting together a go bag just for when she locks me out of the bedroom.  

I'm a bit different in that I have a number of sleep disorders and use quite a bit of gear to get to sleep.  So... packing it is a bit of a chore.

By and large I've defended the bedroom and she goes other places.  Yep... I used guilt and shame when we were going to MCs and even in BPD land she realized it looked bad for her.

So... .I basically had two conditions.  I can stay in bed and get a nights sleep... .or... .I was at a hotel, sleeping as best I can.  Once I started to pack up for hotel... .I NEVER turned around... .even if she was apologizing... .whatever.

She actually "sarcastically" suggested I get an apartment.  In MC I sort of speculated that it might be cheaper if she just let me sleep... .and... .the silence was deafening.

She really wanted approval from this church (a senior pastor was our MC) and his "rule" was that after 10pm she was not allowed to speak to anyone (unless 911 needed to be called).  If she needed to talk, she was ALWAYS able to pray silently to GOD and read her Bible.  Funny thing... .she did it... I stopped getting woken up.

Anyway... .I would "be kind to yourself" and go get a hotel.

I'm NOT a fan of the two night thing.  That's punishment.

As soon as she stops being weird... .you move on.  wash rinse repeat. (even if it's a "poof" thing... ."poof" normal wife returns... .you "return" to normal and move on... .don't "remind" her of bad behavior)

You need to get something that only an adult can move... .and lock your stuff in it.  Perhaps a fire box or small safe.

Leave it out in conspicuous place so you quickly know what's up.

It's about protecting your stuff... .she can make it about (and will) whatever she wants.

FF


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« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2018, 07:47:05 PM »

It's about protecting your stuff... .she can make it about (and will) whatever she wants.

Great point, FF. Incidentally, after having one of those very calm but obviously still very dysregulated conversations last night, both of us got to "sharing" about points we had been dishonest about it the past, and my wife admitted to taking my bank card (but has no idea what happened to the cash and ID). Her extreme reaction to my accusing was evidently because I included my ID card in the accusation, which she didn't take. For those of you who read my post mentioning she faked a hospital visit, that was in fact true due to the fact that she was having a serious headache and is a survivor of a brain hemorrhage. But it is clear now that she is capable of lying. 

A tentatively positive result to this last extinction burst is that she has agreed to give the DBT class a try, on the condition I find out if I can join with her. I'm going to speak to the doctor in charge this morning about whether that's feasible or disruptive to her treatment, but the key point is my wife needs to see that the problem doesn't only sit with her, which is true in the sense that my codependency played a role in enabling her. I suggested that she do DBT and I do counseling (which I am already secretly, so I could just roll that into our shared reality and stop hiding it) since I described us as both having issues, just different issues. So I hope the doctor can recommend to both of us - documented in email - that it would be better if she did DBT and I did therapy.

Either way, things are moving forward I hope.  

~ROE  
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« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2018, 08:49:12 PM »


Make the focus on both of you improving relationship skills!

FF
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Fond memories, fella.


« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2018, 11:42:20 PM »

I don't like it when things get messy.  I feel the urge to clean it up right away, and get upset at whoever is creating the mess.  I made pretty good progress embracing chaos when our kids were small, and it helped!

W.r.t. DBT for you, I generally think you shouldn't have to go.  There's only so much time in the day, you have a job, you have small kids, and it might be wiser to focus on therapy tailored to you.  BUT, it might be worth considering.  DBT typically has 1:1 counseling at least once per week, and a group skills class.  The 1:1 seems inappropriate for you, given your needs and priorities.  But the skills class might actually be interesting.  Elements of it might help you, and it would also make you very familiar with what your wife is learning.  It's much cheaper than the individual therapy.  You wouldn't want to go on the same time as your wife, though, and they may only offer one time.  Do what's right for you, though.  You have a lot on your plate.

WW
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« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2018, 03:31:32 AM »

WW so interesting about the messy thing. Whenever I come home to emotional chaos, the first thing I always do is start cleaning, whether it's picking up toys or washing the dishes. It's very obviously a psychological attempt to apply order to chaos to make me feel better. I'm going to take your advice to try and embrace the mess.

The doctor said that we can't join the class together and it would be situation of one person goes first and once they graduate the other can join. I agree with tailored therapy for me and DBT for wife, but we'll have to see how things play out.

~ROE
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« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2018, 05:36:00 AM »

WW so interesting about the messy thing. Whenever I come home to emotional chaos, the first thing I always do is start cleaning, whether it's picking up toys or washing the dishes. It's very obviously a psychological attempt to apply order to chaos to make me feel better. I'm going to take your advice to try and embrace the mess.

Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes... .I have also observed myself compulsively wiping work surfaces when I can feel tension rising or a whiff or chaos in the air. It's my way of emotionally putting it all back in the box.
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« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2018, 01:56:11 PM »

I'm considering putting together a go bag just for when she locks me out of the bedroom.

The couch is tolerable, but I'm wondering if I should stay in a hotel the next time and tell her every time she locks me out I'll stay outside for two nights.

When you have two little kids, the idea of one night in a hotel room is paradise.

I'm learning to find ways to find some enjoyment during these dysregulation periods.

The morning I took off from work and waited for the department store to open to buy pants, I had breakfast at McDonalds and read there for a little while.

It was awesome, sad as that sounds. 

Afternoon ROE’

It’s not a bad thing to be prepared, I still keep what I call “bail-out bags” for my Son and myself, and I have used them on a few occasions now, as formflier says, when I make the “go” decision, I keep on going, there is no “stopping”, no stand-down, NO games… until it all plays out… besides clothes, and pajamas, and showers bags, I keep cold hard cash in there, so that my geographical position, location cannot be ascertained via the credit card,

Also, I keep keys to the house hidden outside, in case u/BPDw initiates op-plan “lock-out”… I have replaced, and repaired too many doors and windows, so it’s much cheaper to just cut a few keys.

Over the past year, since I have become much more awares’ as to “why”, as in the discovery of suspected u/BPD, I have learnt to initiate my own “op-plans” to counter, ie’ flee-fight-freeze, or “fawn” ()… so over the last… say;…seven months, u/BPDw has not let the BPD dysregulation meter go past the No.5 mark (scale of one – ten BPD event intensity)… It’s been a while since I had to “bail out”… but there was a drive away a few months ago, around February.

The marriage bedroom (master), versus the spare bedroom, or my man-cave office… over time, as formflier has done, I have asserted the positional authority; and now mutually, that the marriage bedroom (master) is a shared space, that neither her, or I can completely control and thus force the other out of that shared space when we “quarrel”… if one or the other decides to “cool it”, this is to be done in one or the other two aforementioned spaces… in the Red5 man cave office, there is a leather couch, which I purposed/procured especially for the purpose of sleeping on from time to time, and also a leather ottoman that contains my Marine Corps poncho liner, two soft pillows, and a soft blanket, there is a big screen tv in there, that hdmi/links to the computer, very comfortable, and I have lived in there for days in the past… I have pretty much laid it down that I will not be locked out, run out, or evicted from my (our) home, and it did take me a while to enforce this boundary, but as of today, it is holding (?).

As you write, “I'm learning to find ways to find some enjoyment during these dysregulation periods”;… I too have learnt to actually make good use (self sooth) during long periods of ST, or NC, or “grey rock”, that my u/BPDw may perpetrate upon me for whatever infraction I may have unwittingly stepped into,

When these periods inevitably do come to pass, my Son and I (my Son is a special needs person with Autism)… my Son and I will go down to the inner coastal, and fish, bird watch, or go for walks, we will go down to the John Deere dealership maybe and look at the cool farming equipment, or the many boat dealerships here in town, we go to the junk antique stores, or go out to eat at the local dinner…

I NO LONGER sit at home and sulk, woe is me, she is mad at me (again)… nope !

When she comes round again, however long that may be… and the BPD’ism’s dissipate again for a spell, I then try to investigate the crash scene, and learn what I can, and then I move on,

I do remember a day or days many months ago, years ago, that u/BPDw ruled with an iron fist, and I rocked and I reeled, and wondered how I was going to get back into the house, after I stepped out with the family dog, and I remember loading my Son into the Grand Cherokee, and driving down the road, for sometimes over a hundred or so miles, just to cool off… but no more, you see; it’s my home too, and you know what, I PAY the bills, so I am no longer going to tolerate less than a mate status in my home, no sir, I have asserted myself as the captain of this here tugboat, () not her, I will love her, respect her, support her, and be her bestie’… but she has got to learn not to bite (continuously) the hand that provides her shelter, comfort, safety, and warmth.

Ha!… much easier said than done right… but strength does beget respect, even in a relationship with a pw/BPD.

A tough row to hoe it is !

Hang in the ROE !

Red5
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Fond memories, fella.


« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2018, 11:56:31 PM »

Roland,

Putting things away and straightening up are mindless things that help with stress.  I still do that.  The thing that helped me was letting go of any expectations about how soon something needed to be tidied, and allowing messes to happen without getting overly stressed in the moment.

WW
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« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2018, 12:20:07 AM »

Thanks, Red5, you paint an excellent picture of what I should work to have ready. Last year I was not yet ready to store backup money secretly, but since I've done it it's given me a lot more courage to face things such as a potential theft or lockout. I also have spare clothes now stashed at my office and I've gotten into the habit of leaving a blanket in the living room just in case.

WW the physical mess serves as an aggravating factor but it's the emotional mess that tends to trigger me most easily. My kids can seriously tear into each other and my S5 has turned naughtiness into an art form. I have to let go of the guilt and the idea that I've already "ruined" them.  

::For an update, my wife still seems (passively at least) open for the DBT class and is leaving it to me to arrange, which I am happy to do. Any suggestions from those with experience of partners entering DBT?  

~ROE
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Fond memories, fella.


« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2018, 02:33:44 AM »

Any suggestions from those with experience of partners entering DBT?  

Find out whether or not you can meet with the therapist to give input.  My wife's therapist has offered this, and I think it has been helpful for me to meet with her.  But I wouldn't worry about this now.  The highest priority is getting your wife started with a therapist she bonds with.

WW
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« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2018, 03:23:36 AM »

Thanks, WW.

May I ask under what pretense your wife's therapist made this offer? I forget - did your wife enter DBT completely willingly or did it somehow relate to the terms of the protection order?

The pretense under which I was able to convince my wife to explore this is that we are going to the counselor who makes the evaluation for both of us to enter the DBT program because we have relationship problems we want to address. My wife (understandably) cannot accept the idea that the problem is all hers and only she needs to go into treatment, which is to some degree true (my codependency). So unless the counselor identifies her BPD and feels its OK to reach out to me about this, not sure whether we can have that engagement. Right now I have little idea how it will go.

~ROE   
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Fond memories, fella.


« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2018, 01:19:03 AM »

Roland,

It sounds like you are on a productive path.  The primary thing as you know is getting your wife into therapy and bonded with her therapist.  If you get to talk to the therapist, that is icing. 

The DBT for us came out of negotiations between my wife and I and our lawyers right after the restraining order.  She likely would have been court-ordered into therapy, but the fact that it was negotiated gave things a less draconian feel.  She knew I thought DBT would help, and we'd briefly seen a marriage counselor who also did DBT, so my wife reached out to her and got into DBT very quickly.  She has been working hard at it ever since.

Part of DBT as my wife is doing it is "reality checking" so her therapist is interested in my end of things.  I have seen her once every 2 months or so.  It's also useful to share information back and forth between my wife and I about where we are each at with things, since we can't talk.  In the negotiated amendment to the restraining order, I included a clause so I could give input to her therapist, since I didn't want someone to reflexively validate her in a DV situation.  Many therapist, perhaps most, do not understand DV.  But her therapist was super receptive and probably would have called me anyway, so it was kind of mutual.  I'm thinking this may be a pretty exceptional situation.  If you end up talking to her therapist, think of yourself as something of a data provider, filling in details that they won't get from her.  Then you'll need to get out of their way and let them work.  Letting go is tough for me, but I never could have made the personal progress I've made in these last few months if I hadn't done a lot of letting go.

WW
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Fond memories, fella.


« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2018, 12:15:09 AM »

Hi Roland,

It's been a few days.  How are you doing?

WW
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« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2018, 03:25:06 AM »

Hi WW, thanks so much for checking in.

Yesterday I was depressed to the point that I could barely move my computer mouse at work. Can't recall ever being more depressed. My wife started in on me a bit at home and I got a little short tempered. It was a dark day.

Today is better. I shared a few email exchanges with my aunt about how depressed I was and let her know a bit more about the ins and outs of life with BPD. I had not stopped to think what a wonderful support she would be. We were close before but this has made us closer. She even shared that my cousin (her son) was in a relationship with a girl who was diagnosed with BPD and suggested the two of us get in touch about it. Amazing the things that come to light when you open up to someone.     

That aside, my wife apologized for last night and is still OK to see the doctor for DBT evaluation next week. Better spirits all around overall.

The DBT evaluation might be a bit tricky. Originally we were supposed to see the doctor at the same time, but since my wife doesn't want to bring the kids in with us we've split it into two separate appointments in the same afternoon. I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing. I don't know quite how to explain what I want or what the problem is. The originally pretense was we wanted to help our marriage and were both interested in the DBT class. Now that I'll be alone with the doctor I don't know how I should approach it. I want to be honest about the situation, but I also don't want to turn it into a "spin" where I try to influence the doctor to send my wife to DBT and me to therapy.

Any thoughts on this?

~ROE   
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WWW
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2018, 07:12:50 AM »



describe what you see and experience in detail.  Let the doctor connect the dots and diagnosis/prescribe.

FF
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« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2018, 09:22:00 AM »

The DBT evaluation might be a bit tricky.

Originally we were supposed to see the doctor at the same time, but since my wife doesn't want to bring the kids in with us we've split it into two separate appointments in the same afternoon.

I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing.

I don't know quite how to explain what I want or what the problem is.

The originally pretense was we wanted to help our marriage and were both interested in the DBT class.

Now that I'll be alone with the doctor I don't know how I should approach it.

I want to be honest about the situation, but I also don't want to turn it into a "spin" where I try to influence the doctor to send my wife to DBT and me to therapy.

Any thoughts on this?

~ROE   

Good Morning ROE,

Maybe a chance for you (better) to maybe lay down some ground work here, .I am sitting here thinking, .do you journal?

... .facts are facts, specific events back up facts,

... .one on one with you -T- at first is probably a good thing, and then one on one -T- with wife next, or vice versa... .so this way either party cannot commit premature sabotage (unwittingly).

Like FF says, "describe what you see and experience in detail"... .this is why I mentioned journaling... .

Something along these lines to your -T-... .what is going on between you and your wife, how does it make you feel, how do you react, is this a big problem, do you want to try to solve it, or else be able to manage it (healthy)... .what should you be looking for as to the next step... .sustainment, management, a way forward.

... .BPD verses DBT, what can you expect, .expectations of "betterment", long term goals... .step carefully, be honest and forthright... .about what you want from your marriage,

Nothing going to change overnight, or even in a week, going to take time... .may fall down sometimes, but don't give up,

Hopefully through therapy (DBT), and your increased awareness, and ability to cope, manage, and sustain yourself, .you can get to a place to where things are better between you and your wife.

Good Karma!

Red5

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“We are so used to our own history, we do not see it as remarkable or out of the ordinary, whereas others might see it as horrendous. Further, we tend to minimize that which we feel shameful about.” {Quote} Patrick J. Carnes / author,
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« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2018, 09:36:33 AM »


Think about the "strategic thought" or the "strategic way of thinking" that is important.

If both of you are in (fill in the blank) and striving to improve your relationship skills... where are both of you guys focusing?

as opposed to...

If both of you are attempting to "prove" certain things or ensure others reach a certain conclusion about yourself or your relationship partner... .where are both of you guys focusing?

Which "mindset" is going to lead to a better life for you (after a period of time)?

Thoughts?

FF
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« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2018, 09:23:18 PM »

Hi FF and Red, thanks so much for the suggestions.

Yes I keep an online record of almost all dysregulated behavior.

I'll be honest that every time we get her near a counselor I think I tend to get a little manipulating. One time before we had a marriage counseling session following a private session where I spoke about the BPD to my counselor, I called the T and asked if we could kind of "run through" how the session would go, which she promptly (and correctly) shot down. Even though she was pretty convinced of my wife's disorder and wanted to help her get treatment, she knew she still had to treat us both fairly and listen to what my wife had to say.

So when I have my meeting, I'll state the facts. The marriage has problems. My wife has done things that have made it hard for me to be close, such as destroying my clothes, stealing my credit card and lying about it, hitting me, abusing alcohol, etc. She told me last year she thought she might have BPD. She's open to DBT but hopes I can do it with her. I've got issues, too, codependency issues that feed the problems. You can talk to her later this afternoon and give us your recommendation. 

These are all facts, no spin. It's entirely possible the doctor might say my wife should go to therapy and me to DBT. Who knows? I'm not a trained psychologist.

I hope if nothing else, it's possible we might walk away from this with a diagnosis. I hope my wife steps up a bit and is honest about what's been happening. I hope there is hope. But it's out of my hands. I didn't expect I could ever get her to consider the DBT this soon. And she seems very committed to the appointment next week. I've done what I could.

~ROE
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Fond memories, fella.


« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2018, 02:08:51 AM »

Roland,

Be yourself, and you'll do fine.  If you share your set of goals for yourself, like improving boundaries, you are not going to sound like someone who needs DBT.  You can also say something like, "While DBT seems useful for anyone, I've got other goals like developing better boundaries and healing from trauma that seem more urgent."  You might be able to finesse it by going to see a T who does DBT and who will teach you some of the techniques, but who will focus mostly on what you need.  I can't remember if you said if there could be a skills session you could go to separate from your wife.  When is your appointment?

WW
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« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2018, 02:42:52 AM »

Hi WW, you pretty much described my personal goals to a t, and the boundary setting is something I have already told my wife I am working on. So I think I know what to say when I go in now.

The way this hospital works is that they currently only have one DBT class. Family members are generally not allowed to join together since that may disrupt the class. So one person goes first and as soon as they complete the course the other person can join. They are considering opening a second class if the numbers are enough, which would mean I could theoretically attend at the same time as her.   

Is your wife's DBT also in class form with others? Do you have any impression as to what a session normally looks like? The doctors that run the program here were trained in Seattle so I'm guessing it will mostly mirror the US approach.

~ROE
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Fond memories, fella.


« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2018, 07:47:16 PM »

Roland,

Your plan sounds like a good one.  Clearly, your wife should go first.  My wife does twice a week with a one-on-one therapist, and once a week for an evening skills class.  I've skimmed the workbook, and talked to the instructor, so I have a general notion of what they do, but not in detail.  They rotate through the four legs of DBT, with a few weeks on each:  mindfulness, emotional regulation, distress tolerance, and interpersonal effectiveness.  Right now, I'm not willing to participate in such a class, not that anyone is asking me anymore, because I'm full up on learning boundaries, recovering from trauma, and working on my parenting skills.  It all seems like good stuff to learn, though, and I wouldn't mind the experience if there weren't more urgent priorities.  Your mileage may vary; it's worth considering.  One way to look at it is if your wife makes good progress in DBT, the stress on you reduces, and you then have the bandwidth to go and she still wants you to, then consider it.  If things are still volatile, you'll have other priorities.  Another approach is to simply be open with the DBT folks and see if they think you need it (caution on that one, my wife's therapist thinks everyone needs it  ).

WW
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« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2018, 02:37:06 AM »

Thanks, WW. Great advice. As for the appointment.

In the meantime I'll be starting a thread on Bettering about codependent anger, so I think I'll move the conversation on this forward there.

ROE
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