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Author Topic: Triangulation, Scapegoats and the Golden Child.  (Read 1383 times)
HappyChappy
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« on: April 25, 2018, 03:42:36 AM »

Here's a thread to pool our knowledge and vent about triangulation as it is a very common BPD manipulation tool. It also effect the person you are for good and for bad.

Probably the biggest issue I had with BPD upbringing was being scapegoated. The injustice lead me to have an affinity with any group that underwent serious prejudice. I wondered why I got on so well with gay people and fought the corner of any minority that was being picked on. But on the upside, it made me a very good debater.

I never understood why some people fight to remain ignorant, until I read a BPD does this to support their feelings of superiority. It can only be achieved by ignoring the evidence, so they argue with emotion. If someone says “I don’t see any racism, I think you are being too sensitive.” You can not argue with what someone else states they see or think. Which is why business boardrooms and law courts, only respond to hard evidence and discount emotions. Its also why a BPD will escalate a debate into an argument if they sense they're losing, just by raising their voice or getting angry.

I also read that a BPD will reward the children based on them living up to these labels. So ironically a scapegoat is rewarded for failure. I won a number of art competition, but my BPD only found out about the first one. I was severely chastised for making my golden boy NPD brother jealous.

The other triangulation oddity is my sister was the “lost child” repeatedly ignored and discounted. So she developed avoidance as a coping mechanism. She believes every mother loves and wont discuss childhood as it was too painful. But that ironical contrast with the scapgoats need to understand and evidence, but triangulation is designed to divide an conquer.

So what aspect of triangulation really got to you ? How has it shaped you ? Do you think that scapegoats have it the worst ?
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« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2018, 08:29:22 PM »

Hey HC

Nice to hear from you.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) This is a deep subject you're exploring. I can tell you've put a lot of thought into it. Some of the research about the Karpman drama triangle shows how the triangle can have people moving around, taking on different roles at different times. To me, that is some of what I hear you saying.

It's interesting, this topic and how it plays out. I've been thinking recently how my uBPDm would defend those who had no voice, and she'd do it quite adamantly, but when it came to her children, she wouldn't defend us... .unless of course we were being persecuted and then she'd take on the role of rescuer and switch places on the drama triangle.

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« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2018, 11:58:52 PM »

I would think that scapegoats have it the worst... .on the surface.  The dysfunctional maltreatment is obvious, right?

My ex was kind of the golden child.  However, she was also parentified and there was likely emotional incest by her mom.  It twisted and damaged her. She fell off the pedestal a bit after she left me.  Younger sister moved back from out of state into their parents' home,  maybe the previous scapegoat now likely closer to their mom.  Interestingly, she lauds her older sister, my ex,  as being strong, but most of my ex's struggles are due to her Impulsivity.

I once suggested to my ex that she could move back in with her parents.  She blanched and said that she thought that she couldn't stand it.  Interesting how children can move between roles. 
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« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2018, 01:00:27 AM »

Hi, Happy Chappy.
Thank you for posting about this important topic. 
Right now, I'm the scape goat because I tried to set a boundary with uBPD mom.
Growing up, I think we all moved around the board a lot, she was very inconsistent in her views of us. 
Generally, whoever was making her look best at any given time was the golden child.  But they could fall very quickly.  I can see ways that all three of us were the scape goat, golden child and lost child at different times.   
Confusing.  The inconsistency lead us all to dance around in our different ways, me thinks.
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« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2018, 08:13:52 PM »

This is a fascinating topic. I feel really thankful that my brother and I have come to the same conclusion regarding our uBPDm—even before we had a name for it—because we’ve been able to see how and when she was flipping the all good/all bad perceptions of us.

In childhood, my brother was the “bad” kid, and I was the “good” kid, but I was also the recipient of her emotional dumping. This flipped when I left for college and started to express beliefs different from hers, but flipped yet again after my brother got married and they had their first child. Mom attempted to triangulate between my brother & SIL precisely once, but that got shut down quickly (though she of course didn’t react well to being taken to task over her behavior).

That was actually the point where my brother called to tell me that he always thought I was so terrible, based on what Mom had always told him, and he and I began to have a healthy adult sibling relationship. In recent years, we’ve been better able to provide one another with a reality check of when Mom was out of line vs. when we maybe could have chosen different behaviors ourselves. We also try to give each other a heads up when there’s been a Mom incident so we know what we might be stepping into on the next phone call or visit.
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« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2018, 02:59:08 AM »


Probably the biggest issue I had with BPD upbringing was being scapegoated. The injustice lead me to have an affinity with any group that underwent serious prejudice. I wondered why I got on so well with gay people and fought the corner of any minority that was being picked on. But on the upside, it made me a very good debater.

HappyChappy, this is very recognizable. I hear you!

It is fascinating to see how every bpdfamily has its own dynamic.
In my family, things got worse once my parents got divorced in my teens: at first my older brother was expected to take over part of the responsibilities. He was no longer my brother, he was a guardian. He flew the nest as soon as he possibly could. Which left just me and my mother.
I became her emotional punching bag. And every six months or so, when it got really ugly, I would turn to my brother, crying, begging for help. He would mediate, and things would quieten down for a short while. This has been the pattern for more than 25 years, up to January, when I refused to turn to him again. My mother did vent about me to him though. Which led him to tell me he was disappointed in me, that my mother and I had been treating each other like trash for years, and that it saddened him that I was not able to surpass that.
That really hurt. But since my only contact with my brother – who lives abroad – is through my mother, I now realize that I do not need his approval, and that he has no idea what he is talking about. I no longer feel the need to explain my behavior to him.
 
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« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2018, 07:19:54 AM »

I'm an outside observer to the relationship my SO's daughters have with their mom but from the outside here is what I've seen.

Initially D21 was the golden child, enmeshed and parentified (raising both her mother and younger sister) D17 was the scapegoat child always left on the outside of the relationship between her mother and sister always being bossed around by both of them.  Got to have somebody to emotionally beat down so you can feel better about yourself    D17 was doing anything and everything she could to gain their approval and inclusion.

Sometimes though D21 & D17 had negative experiences with their mother and they would team up against her, but it would eventually roll back around to their usual roles.

Normally mom was in the victim role, D21 was the responsible rescuer, & D17 was the scapegoat/trying to please kid but their dad could/can be most often found in the persecutor role where their mother put him.  It was the 3 of them against dad... .and you have parental alienation... .which to me also implies mom in the persecutor role with the girls when guilt didn't do the job keeping her in the victim role.

It went on like this until things started to crumble.  Mom had lowered custody (less than 50/50) coming out of the divorce.  The girls saw their dad more and the relationship with him got better.  Mom lied one too many times to D17 and she made comments about suicide at school.  This crisis led to D17 going briefly inpatient, being diagnosed with PTSD, getting on some helpful medication, and getting a really good therapist.

D17 started trying to set boundaries with her mother and rebelling against her bossy mom #2 her sister.  The thing about D17 is that she has always tried to have a relationship with both parents (even when the alienation was occurring). People pleasing seems to be what D17 has developed from her childhood because she was always on the outside looking in. She is very sensitive, struggles with others strong emotions and is always trying to create harmony.

D21 is more of a black and white thinker, she learned this from her mom and her mom paid the price.  Mom betrayed D21 and she is now no contact with her.  D21 the Golden Child spends a lot of time being "right" and "responsible" and "good" modeling the role she has been put in by her mother.  She needs to learn that love isn't conditional that she doesn't need to be perfect all the time to be loved.  D21 can also be a bully.

Both girls can jump on the triangle in the victim position... .I think some of this is just being teenagers but this is also one of the examples they had modeled for them.  My SO has actually seen the two of them have conversation on who is the bigger victim 

Both can jump on in the persecutor role too (see D21 here more)and both can be rescuers (see D17 here more).

Both girls have picked up their share of fleas and issues like we all do but have also grown, learned, changed, received therapy, and matured.  The are both wonderful people who will get out there in the world and do well in spite of or even because of their BPD mom.

Panda39






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« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2018, 03:51:43 AM »

Libra, your post struck a cord with me.  I use to look after my younger sister, she said I was the only one that validated her, we always got on. But when I fell ill, she went into denial and said all mothers love, so this BPD thing is all wrong. I felt so let down that she couldn't return the favour, until I realised she was the “lost child” in the triangulation dynamic. She had been programmed to avoid and hide as a coping mechanism. She thinks we're close, but I would say my friends are closer and my sister seems more comfortable in her own company than others. Maybe because she was marginalised as the "lost child" ?

Where as scapegoat is never allowed to avoid, hence why you were the punchbag (nothing you could have done about that) and I tackle things head on. But a bit like your scenario, triangulation is designed to keep the kids apart, and to channel all information through the BPD, and it seems to work remarkably well, as evidenced in your post, and my family.
 
Hey Panda39 your description of scapegoat and golden child is text book. A scapegoat is the most likely to go to therapy (PTSD being the most likely ailment), they tend to be people pleasers, because of the "treat them mean keep them keen" approach they endured. The Golden child will be accustomed to be being right and more likely to be the bully (because they are use to getting their own way).

Some great stories in this thread, keep them coming.  
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« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2018, 05:54:17 AM »

HappyChappy, I can only confirm your impression: the relationship between my brother and myself has been very superfluous since our teen years.
If I try to really connect at any level he will start joking and ridiculing. As a teen this made me feel really confused and isolated. Now I see that this is probably his coping method. He hides behind a wall of humor, deflecting any attempts to connect.
It would be so comforting to connect to my brother, to share experiences and feelings about our mother, but I fear that will never happen.
Are there any siblings out there that do share experiences and grief about their difficult relationships with one or both parents?

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« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2018, 09:06:51 AM »

Are there any siblings out there that do share experiences and grief about their difficult relationships with one or both parents?
From what I’ve read, its not so common that children of a BPD are thick as thieves. Not surprising considering triangulation is designed to stop that. But I see scapegoats unite on here, and groupings and allegiances forming on this very forum.

As the scapegoat is the most likely to go to Therapy and hence realise the BPD thing, we should be in a majority on here. The theory goes, that the other members of triangulation are more happy to be part of the established view, that the scapegoat deserves it, because otherwise they know they could be next. And the scapegoat gets kicked when the BPD rages, for kicking her off. It amazed me that my BPD would belt me, giving me a black eye, then when my Dad got home, after BPD briefing I'd be the one in trouble ?Bullet: comment directed to __ (click to insert in post)? She just kept repeating I was clumsy, sound familiar ?
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« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2018, 04:26:36 PM »


Wow!... this is a great thread indeed.

triangulation is designed to keep the kids apart, and to channel all information through the BPD, and it seems to work remarkably well, as evidenced in your post, and my family.

So good to have a bird's view of this. Seeing that it happens within any type of blended families/friends groups as well. So revealing. The purpose is exactly the same, no matter who the people are in the play.

I am coming in from a marriage to someone who has NPD traits.  I have known my spouse for over two decades. I can see this dynamic as it evolved over the years we've been together. Going on exactly as described between my spouse (victim) and two of her adult sons (one is the golden son, living far away, and the other was the scapegoat when living with her, now the lost child).

Similar dynamic, played also the same way between her (victim), two of her long time friends (both take turns as golden friends), and myself (initially the golden one, than the scapegoat once I started to put boundaries, than now being the lost one since I moved out). All roles are 'assigned roles', all are serving their specific function and switching over time.

The theory goes, that the other members of triangulation are more happy to be part of the established view, that the scapegoat deserves it, because otherwise they know they could be next. And the scapegoat gets kicked when the BPD rages, for kicking her off.


This is so true.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

I often time struggle to see myself as 'normal' (not defective) to have reached out for therapy when I could. There were toxic comments from my spouse attacking me for being overly sensitive, too dependent, too needy, and so on. She even said that if people need therapy, it's because something is wrong with them as people, inferring some sort of character weakness. Because of my own FOO experiences, I can relate to how it might be to be brought up fearing both a parent's rages and the need for therapy or support. I grew up with a raging parent myself. I am immensely grateful to have had the opportunity to have support and therapy at some times in my life.

I still can identify the pull in me, so strong, to want to normalize  the way she treated her son before, and than me, once I disagreed with her. This tendency I have to want to  minimize the impact of her actions and words. In the end I can see it's a fear that's been my strongest motivator. Yep!  Exactly true.

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« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2018, 05:24:17 PM »

I come from a family where there is toxic scapegoating on both sides of the family. Both my mother and father had endless terrible things to say about certain aunts and uncle who were the family scapegoats, and really wonderful people. These aunts and uncle were awfully kind to me, in part because they were kind people to begin with, and they gave me the love I did not get at home. As you can probably guess, I was the scapegoat, and now have been in therapy for many years. The golden children will never go to therapy as they see themselves as entitled to special treatment and see nothing wrong with bullying the scapegoats.
I feel I am in some ways lucky to have been the scapegoat. I have a far richer life and am a more kind and compassionate person because of it. I do though need to work on overcoming feeling like a victim and give myself credit for the courage I have to face my demons.
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« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2018, 05:27:48 PM »

I come from a family where there is toxic scapegoating on both sides of the family. Both my mother and father had endless terrible things to say about certain aunts and uncle who were the family scapegoats, and really wonderful people. These aunts and uncle were awfully kind to me, in part because they were kind people to begin with, and they gave me the love I did not get at home.

I couldn't even say anything kind about anyone, because my mother would make up something negative in response. So I stopped saying much.
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« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2018, 06:12:59 PM »

Turkish,
You have really hit on something that has caused me a lot of hurt. I like to look for the best in others and talk about people's strengths. There were so many relatives outside my immediate family that were kind to me. I often talked about these people to my mother, and then it seems that from then on she had nothing but horrendous things to say about them. I have recently learned like you have that it is best not to talk to my mother about anything because this threatens her illusion that we are not separate people, and the poisonous attacks escalate. I think I need to apply this lesson to all the borderlines in my family. They do not want to see me as separate from them, and the less I tell them about my life the better. Thank you for helping me to see something I had never realized.
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« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2018, 07:06:04 PM »

Turkish,
You have really hit on something that has caused me a lot of hurt. I like to look for the best in others and talk about people's strengths. There were so many relatives outside my immediate family that were kind to me. I often talked about these people to my mother, and then it seems that from then on she had nothing but horrendous things to say about them. I have recently learned like you have that it is best not to talk to my mother about anything because this threatens her illusion that we are not separate people, and the poisonous attacks escalate. I think I need to apply this lesson to all the borderlines in my family. They do not want to see me as separate from them, and the less I tell them about my life the better. Thank you for helping me to see something I had never realized.

And loving someone else becomes a threat leading to fear of abandonment.  You can't love someone else and her only someone else or her.
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« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2018, 07:18:46 PM »

Panda39
You hit the nail on the head. My mother could not allow her children to love other people. When my brother was in kindergarten, my mother with panic in her voice told me she was upset that my brother and another girl in kindergarten liked each other. Mom interfered in all her children's relationships, told terrible lies about the people we dated, and it is no wonder that only my sister got married, and she married a guy that does not put up with mom's BS. I realize I am afraid of intimate relationships, and it is really no longer necessary. I no longer live with mom, and I can indeed have close friends and a boyfriend without having to hear mom's terrible lies about them. Thank you!
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« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2018, 06:47:06 AM »

And loving someone else becomes a threat leading to fear of abandonment.  You can't love someone else and her only someone else or her.

I found being scapegoated by Wife/MIL and Wife/Kids that it triggered my fear of abandonment. The fear of loosing my kids and r/s with wife. I've just started stepping out of that triangle and getting my clarity back.

I always wonder if my Wife played her mom as a rescuer into our relationship just to have another person/s pointing out how jealous, over sensitive, lazy and bad parent I'm. And then the other family members follow the mom. Has anyone ever experienced anything like this?

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« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2018, 08:26:46 AM »

Going through that very thing now, except more that triangulation.  Enmeshed clueless Dad is also in the mix.

I was scapegoat growing up.  I left as soon as I was 18.  Golden sister moved next door. I never realized until recently how much sister realized about how Mom is.

So we've sort of switched roles. I'm the one Mom wants around.

Mom and Dad are early 80s.  Sister and I are mid-50s.
Sister lives next door.  I live 2 hours away (more or less, depending if I'm home or at work, need to load car get gas... .)

Mom is having some orthopedic issues now and needs help doing somethings until she's recovered.  She rejects Dad's help.  She is just mean to him and no matter what he does is wrong.  Down to what direction he cuts her sandwiches.

I am avoiding talking to them when I don't have to.  Last time I talked to her was a week and a half after her casting appointment following surgery from her fall.  She said she would be a lot better off if someone was around who was able to help with things like washing her hair.

My sister calls me when things get really really bad (they are always bad).  The triangulation is that she says dad Can't do stuff. She tells sister she doesn't need anything and tells me she needs help.  My sister has offered to do the specific things that I've been told need doing and she is told that they don't need doing.  Does she actually believe that we don't compare notes?  And that we believe each other rather than the irrational one?  I think she probably does.  She is mainly trying to manipulate me to go there and if it's not an emergency, I'm attending to my responsibilities.

Guilt?  She's not getting that either. Guilt is for if you have done something wrong, which I have not. I do feel sorry for sister and Dad having to deal with her on a daily basis.  But there is nothing that I can do about it.  My presence there will not change that.

She talks bad to us about our Dad, but we know how bad he's trying.  She tells the two of us different stories.  It's exhausting from this distance away.  I'm glad I'm not there.

Sister did try to get me to go there yesterday afternoon to sort things out.  Not being an emergency and having other things already planned, I did not go.  I do understand sister's frustration.  And sister tells me "you're the only one Mom will listen to".  Yesterday, not to me either.  Sister actually said we need to figure out how to get her committed.  Told her that we can't get her committed for this.
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« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2018, 02:33:48 AM »

Your point about  Bullet: contents of text or email (click to insert in post) does your BPD think you and your sister don’t talk, that’s often the case, mainly when you’re all living together and under the BPD spell. My BPD told me my father was devastated I wasn’t a girl, “Can you imagine his disappointment ?”.  I now realise that was rubbish, but we never spoke of it, not once. A child doesn’t want to risk the rejection. BPD are good at hiding their lies, by ensuring people don't talk among themselves. Triangulation is just one way of doing this.

Sounds like you’ve got your family pegged. Also sounds like you are comfortable to sit outside all the drama, good for you.
Sister actually said we need to figure out how to get her committed. 
Sounds like your sister is fed up, was she the golden child when she move in next door ? The roll switching looks quiet effective. Now your sister had committed, she is anchored, no need to waist the GC treatment on her.
She rejects Dad's help.  She is just mean to him and no matter what he does is wrong.  Down to what direction he cuts her sandwiches.
They pick things you can do nothing about, to ensure the criticism sticks. My BPS mother did the same, often with the "Why won't you help... .Oh its too late now." template. If your sister wants to get your BPD committed, would a visiting care assistant help your sisters situation ?
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« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2018, 08:02:56 AM »

Todayistheday,
I was wondering if you might want to get some home health care for your parents. My BPD mother now has home health care during part of most days. I find the best time to interact with mom is when outsiders are in the house because she puts on her facade of being a nice person.
Just a thought.
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« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2018, 06:35:35 PM »

Here's a thread to pool our knowledge and vent about triangulation as it is a very common BPD manipulation tool. It also effect the person you are for good and for bad.

Probably the biggest issue I had with BPD upbringing was being scapegoated. The injustice lead me to have an affinity with any group that underwent serious prejudice. I wondered why I got on so well with gay people and fought the corner of any minority that was being picked on. But on the upside, it made me a very good debater.

I never understood why some people fight to remain ignorant, until I read a BPD does this to support their feelings of superiority. It can only be achieved by ignoring the evidence, so they argue with emotion. If someone says “I don’t see any racism, I think you are being too sensitive.” You can not argue with what someone else states they see or think. Which is why business boardrooms and law courts, only respond to hard evidence and discount emotions. Its also why a BPD will escalate a debate into an argument if they sense they're losing, just by raising their voice or getting angry.

I also read that a BPD will reward the children based on them living up to these labels. So ironically a scapegoat is rewarded for failure. I won a number of art competition, but my BPD only found out about the first one. I was severely chastised for making my golden boy NPD brother jealous.

The other triangulation oddity is my sister was the “lost child” repeatedly ignored and discounted. So she developed avoidance as a coping mechanism. She believes every mother loves and wont discuss childhood as it was too painful. But that ironical contrast with the scapgoats need to understand and evidence, but triangulation is designed to divide an conquer.

So what aspect of triangulation really got to you ? How has it shaped you ? Do you think that scapegoats have it the worst ?

YOU totally blew my mind.  "The injustice lead me to have an affinity with any group that underwent serious prejudice."  My husband was an undocumented immigrant.  I am a therapist.  I never made the connection despite years of therapy.  I was a scapegoat and a lost child.  I was and continue to be told that my opinion is useless, dumb, uneducated (despite my Master's degree).  If I give advice, it's never taken and always verified through someone else.  I am also scapegoated.  If she is upset at anyone in the family- I get the brunt of it.  People ask me how I live (literally still in the same house as her with my family), and my response internally is that I survive- not live.  I have somewhat detached emotionally, but still very much controlled by FOG.  I am sometimes a golden child when she wants to complain about someone else, but never for long.  My sister is the golden child ALWAYS.  My second youngest brother used rebellion to put boundaries and is excellent at keeping them (even though he is the one who traditionally "screwed up"- he is the healthiest), and is also now a golden child.  My oldest brother is a Narcissist... .surprise!
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annernan

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Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Gay, lesb
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Posts: 7


« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2018, 10:44:12 PM »

This one was definitely in play in our family. I have 2 younger half sibs (1 has passed away) and an older adopted sib who was my biological cousin. There was definite triangulation going on although I didn't understand it or how prevelant it was in BPD until pretty recently.
We did not grow up living together, only seeing each other rarely. Suddenly about 2 years ago, after having very little contact, my brother called me  out of the blue and said " I'm so sorry. I believed all these bad things I was told and I had no reason to. Please forgive me. I'd like to have a relationship with you."
My older sister had pretty much the same conversation with me. My younger sister died when she was only 18, and I don't know how much she realized what was really going on.
As the scapegoat, I have gone really overboard with my two kids making sure they are treated fairly... .it is so important to me that neither of them carries that burden.
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