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Woolspinner2000
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« on: June 11, 2018, 03:34:58 PM »

I'm usually posting on my home board PSI, but I shall wander from my friendly llama pasture  Being cool (click to insert in post) to this one to ask for some advice pertaining to legal issues.

My post doesn't have to do with custody issues since our children are all adults, nor does it have to do with divorce, but it does have to do with my own legal and financial accountability and obligations. Will be a long explanation I fear-sorry.

Those of you who know me from PSI have most likely read bits and pieces of my story here and there. My mom was uBPD, and I married someone with traits similar to hers although he's not BPD. Definitely has N traits, lots of control. I've been working a lot on co-dependency issues after 33 years of marriage along with healing from growing up in a BPD environment, and I am proudly learning to stand up for myself some this past year or so. My situation pertains to DH and his financial choices and another he is about to make.

Back in 2015 right after my dad died (literally within 2 weeks of his death), DH began pressuring me to apply for loans and remortgage our home for a 2nd time so he could buy another building. We had just sold a commercial property in Jan. of that year. I kept saying no and stuck with it. He is 71 and retired, 16 years older than I am, only working a few hours a week, and we don't have enough money to pay for anything extra than our monthly bills. The next summer he decided to invest $ with a man who has a shady background (more on that later), I think it was $35K to buy leasing rights to a property the man owns. I was very much against it because I didn't think it was a wise investment, but he decided to do it anyway. I told him I wanted an equal portion for investment, and he agreed. This was all from the sale of that original commercial property. I chose to invest my portion with a financial planner, and while the market goes up and down, it has not been lost.

For 2 years the property he bought leasing rights to (technically he doesn't own the property but owns stock in the property that this man owns), has been tied up in legalities and red tape, but finally a couple months ago he began renovating this property (425 sq ft fishing cottage, one room) which he hopes to rent out. By the time it gets finished, he will have invested about $60k in it. In the meantime, this same man convinced DH to secretly invest $20K in buying about 25 used cars and jointly own them with DH (March of 2017), and DH did not tell me about the withdrawal of money from our account. I found out one day when I saw the balance of that account was suddenly missing $30K! When I found out, he blamed the fact that I would be angry with him as the reason he didn't tell me. It has been another fiasco. He said he's made lots of money but that is only because his partner gave him all the money back each time a car sold, and he amortized them on the books. Technically he has not made much of anything, but he shows a profit on his books. 

Then add to that a purchase of 3 cars for $10k with another fellow. The fellow sold the cars, took his fees out, and we lost money. Then he proceeded to take his wife on a cruise and buy more cars with our original $10k. It is gone, stolen, and DH won't turn him in because it'll ruin this man. We've gotten about $700 back.

All in all, DH has gone through about $80 to $85k since the sale of that building in Jan. 2015 to Nov. of 2017. He knows where some of it has gone, but not all of it. He was more focused on proving that I stole his parents inheritance in Nov. than anything. I have not. We do have some of that inheritance tied up in an investment until 2020 thankfully, so it is where he cannot get at it (hopefully).

I don't know that any of that information is helpful as a back story or not. I suppose I need to mention that this man with the shady background does indeed have many court issues. When I did my research last fall, there were 27 counts/charges against him in 5 or 6 different court systems. The earliest one was when this man was 19 years old and part of an armed robbery. Since it was a first offense, he didn't go to jail. He is now early 50s. Various issues, some minor, then last spring an assault, he's filed for bankruptcy, not paying his bills, forgery for which he is on a 3 year watch, tax evasion, and charges were brought up against him for possible elder abuse. On all of these issues, he has only been convicted for the forgery and a few other minor things.

I showed this information to DH in Nov so he would be informed. His response was that his friend has been set up by the police except for a couple of things which he openly told DH about. It's the police's fault.

I found out late Friday that DH intends to go forward on the purchase of a building with this man, and now they'll be partners but the partnership won't be in writing. This man needs DH to be the legal front for him, because he said that he cannot get a loan from the bank unless he has owned commercial property before. DH has owned property. His friend is going to pay $10K down, even though he has enough cash to pay for the whole thing but that will raise flags as to where he got the money. So he'll get the loan for the balance. DH does NOT have to make any payments or put any money down. However, if this friend walks away, we become liable for the entire amount.

DH has told me that he will purchase in our company's name but he will sign personally. Now he would be more prominently and legally tied to this man who has the not so good background. I'm afraid that if this man gets arrested again by the police, then DH will now be examined as well because of his connection to his friend. Then I worry that I'll risk being pulled in as well. I don't know if being an officer of our cooperation (DH is president and treasurer, I'm VP and secretary and it's just the 2 of us) will protect me or pull me in deeper. We have our home in a trust, and I wonder how that figures in too.

I know from speaking with divorce attorneys that there are 3 options: divorce, dissolution, or legal separation. I don't know if any will protect me from legal obligation with this situation.

Tomorrow I will go to meet with our company attorney to try and ask some questions. If you have suggestions for me, please let me know. I don't know what to do at this point. I don't  want to be pulled into the financial obligation because now we will have debt, and then the legal issues. I already am pretty sure that the sale of these cars is not above board but DH says everyone does it. He doesn't have a dealer's license, and his friend lost his in the forgery case and can never have another one again.

If you managed to wade through this, thank you!




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ForeverDad
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« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2018, 06:22:37 PM »

Clearly, saying No won't stop your spouse.  If it's not one deal, it's another, a whole series of them.  The lawyer should at least be able to tell you whether your spouse can do anything major without your signature on the deals.

Just as clearly, you shouldn't own anything jointly with him or these underhanded deals will never stop involving you.  However, I suspect you can't force the issue without some sort of legal separation, divorce or something similar.  If the company lawyer can't help, ask him for referrals to professionals more experienced who can.
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zachira
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« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2018, 07:01:43 PM »

You are smart to consult a lawyer to find out what you can do. I am so sorry you have to deal with this, as you have worked hard and been financially responsible. Each state has different laws and only a lawyer with the right background would know the answers. It is so hard to talk with a lawyer because often the law does not protect us the way it should, and laws are open to interpretation depending on the latest court ruling in a similar case, so it is imporant to be kept up to date by a good lawyer. I am sorry I can't be more helpful. Just know we are here for you to listen and support you, as you always are for us.
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Woolspinner2000
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« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2018, 06:08:58 AM »

Thank you so much for the replies.

I'll let you know what the attorney has to say today. I have a close friend going along with me to help be added ears and ask questions that I don't think of.

 
Wools
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« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2018, 09:19:49 PM »

The meeting with the attorney went well but was totally overwhelming for me. He went over the purpose of a corporation which helps to protect individuals from what happens within the business. If DH signs for a loan as a company representative,  then it is the company he's representing. If as an individual, than he signs as an individual. It should be one of the other.

As long as I don't sign any papers, I will not be liable he said.

Last night DH told me that he and his friend made an offer on the building. Oh dear... .now what to do. DH did say again that basically I have no options.

Ah, but I do.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

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zachira
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« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2018, 10:27:36 PM »

I think I may hear your concerns. You are worried about how your husband's business dealings can affect you in the long run and with good reason. If he incurs major debt than that affects you financially and your well being long term. Also, it really hurts to have your feelings and concerns ignored by your husband as if your well being does not matter. You might try marriage counseling to see if you can discuss some of these things, and of course he has to be willing to go, which is another challenge. I know all of this has been a concern for a long time if I remember your previous posts well. Take care and let us know how you are doing.
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Woolspinner2000
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« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2018, 07:14:22 AM »

Yes it has been of concern for some time for me of what the future looks like financially. I don't worry about it per se, but when what we had saved for and worked hard for is going away, plus now added potential of debt, that does concern me because we don't earn enough money between the two of us to save or have any extra to make payments for a debt.

We are currently debt free (not sure if I mentioned this) and have been for a number of years. I believe in good investments because they help one save for the future and sometimes that means taking risks. It's about what type of risks you are willing to take as a couple. We did this with our commercial building that we owned and rented out. At that time DH was still working too, but now he's mostly retired and brings in only his SS. Since he retired at 62, the amount is minimal. He worked hard all these years and was fairly wise with money. We saved together and worked toward our goals.

It's when I began counseling individually and began to step out of the cycle that the biggest changes have come. It's when I stopped giving in to everything and began voicing my opinion that things got worse. I thought if we could come to an agreement on what to invest in, then things would be okay, but alas, he chose this one particular route with a N and has not gotten away from giving this man more and more money.

We have gone to marriage counseling a little. It helped a bit with communication, but then DH said we didn't need to go because we could work on it ourselves. I end up feeling unsafe emotionally when I allow myself to be vulnerable before him, and he quite often comes back and uses the information against me or he continually blames my childhood and my parents. For example, when last year he hit me and was quite not present mentally, he didn't even remember that he hit me. I brought it up, and he said I was saying he hit me because I was projecting what I saw my parents do. Ah, no, he was the one who hit me, in the preseent, and he would take no responsibility for his actions.

I think marriage counseling can be awesome for it helps you to learn how to work with your differences in a marriage and learn the things that trigger one another. I almost stepped into marriage counseling a few months ago with him so that we could tackle such issues, and we each met with the T individually first. DH told me that he went with his list of all the things that he wanted to see me change in, and I realized right away that this was going to be a "let's fix Wools" type of T, not a time to work on our marriage. If Wools can be fixed to be who DH thinks she should [go back to] be, then all will be as he thinks it should be. I had to ask myself if T as a couple would be worth the emotional risk in the end. For me, I decided that if it was only to work on making Wools change, then I was not wanting to expose myself to that. I've worked too long in individual T to learn that I have value as a person.

I know that I cannot change DH, so I've given up on that, and it's not right to do anyway. We are each uniquely made, creative in our individuality. How do we allow others to be who they are meant to be and be ourselves too?

I'm interested in deciding things together as a team with DH, not have these gigantic financial choices made without my input. I want him to see and understand my persepective, and in the end I'd prefer that he say no to this choice. We used to discuss them better in the past, but even then he would not yield to any of my preferences but put his ahead and justified them as being needed but mine were/are a waste of money. So many sad things for me, and I've worked just as hard to help us save and try to get ahead so that we could invest. It's just coming to the place that I'm ready to say "No more!" Even the attorney was shocked when he saw the rap sheet of this friend of DH. He kept commenting on how these were not little things to be charged with.

If there were two aspects of this situation that were not here, I think it would help a lot:
1. The fact that his N friend has a rap sheet (who else would risk what will now be $135k on this type of scenario?)
2. That there has been no financial return within the last 3 years from his investments
Added to that is that he's made these decisions as an individual without any consulting or advising. He will not allow anyone to suggest that he consider other more stable choices even though we've met with 2 different financial planners. He's told them he'll invest the way he wants to. He has become blinded to the value of the opinion and guidance of others.

Thanks for posting and thank you for hearing me zachira. If it's any help, my T and our marriage counselors both have said that they've never seen anything quite like our situation. It's special. Where's the eye rolling emoji?  Being cool (click to insert in post)
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zachira
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« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2018, 09:52:15 AM »

So you have become more self assured through facing what happened in childhood and you can't go back to the way you were, and your husband is perhaps rebelling against how you have changed by making some pretty unsound thoughtless financial decisions. You might want to reconsider marriage counseling taking into account the following: A good marriage counselor is used to the fact that most marriage counseling starts out with one spouse wanting to fix the other, and works with this dynamic to make the counseling about improving the relationship between the spouses. It is very painful and unfair to make counseling about one spouse that needs fixing the focus of the counseling; a good counselor will change that focus and keep you safe when your spouse is saying things that hurt you, a protection you do not have at home. The most respected and evidence based therapy for couples is called Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT), and going to a therapist that is well trained in EFT can be a worthy investment. Not all therapists are a good fit. Also there is usually a big difference between the kind of training a counselor has and a therapist has.
You might also want to read "Your Money and Your Brain" by Jason Zweig. It talks about how smart, rational people end up making irrational, foolish decisions about money. It also talks about how to use your brain to make the best decisions about money. Maybe your husband would be willing to read this book.
I apologize for all the advice, if it was way too much. These are just my thoughts on what could be helpful, and I realize it does not take away all the pain and frustration that you feel about what is going on. Take care and keep us updated on how you are doing.
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ForeverDad
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« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2018, 12:15:07 PM »

The meeting with the attorney went well... .
As long as I don't sign any papers, I will not be liable he said.

DH did say again that basically I have no options.

Ah, but I do.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

Remember that!  A huge risk here is that he's huffing and puffing at your boundaries and probably won't stop, expecting you to eventually cave to his inevitable.  Let's hope you've built your boundaries as bricks and not straw.

You perhaps should get a family law attorney's opinion since even if you're not directly liable for his personal choices it could impact the marital equity, if ever split, of everything co-owned and co-owed.

It's when I began counseling individually and began to step out of the cycle that the biggest changes have come. It's when I stopped giving in to everything and began voicing my opinion that things got worse.

We have gone to marriage counseling a little. It helped a bit with communication, but then DH said we didn't need to go because we could work on it ourselves.

Well, if you two "could work on it yourselves" you would have done it many years ago.  Leaving MC let him stop having to look in a mirror and pursue his own perceptions and nonfixes.

Sounds like there's some resistance since he is trying to keep you from changing or setting boundaries for yourself.  He wants you to remain passive and acquiescing.

He will continue minimizing the risks, minimizing the import of a serious rap sheet.  You have multiple professionals who agree with your shock and concern.  Can you continue making a firm stand to protect yourself, if not also him from himself too?  Immovable object versus the relentless irresistible force?
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« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2018, 02:09:15 PM »


I know that I cannot change DH, so I've given up on that, and it's not right to do anyway. We are each uniquely made, creative in our individuality. How do we allow others to be who they are meant to be and be ourselves too?


I 100% agree with your statement that it's not right to try to change someone... .HOWEVER... .

That doesn't mean that you have to accept aspects of who DH is that impact your ability to be who you were uniquely made to be.  After a little over a year on this site, I think those who have been most successful in staying in their marriages to pwBPD are those who have focused on changing the aspects of their behavior that contribute to marriage issues and creating boundaries that minimize the impact of their pwBPD's harmful behaviors on them.  At times, pwBPD decide that they don't want to live with the new boundaries or nons decide that the effort of constantly defending those boundaries is more than they want to deal with for the rest of their lives, and the marriage ends.  BUT, I do think it's possible to radically accept your pwBPD and find joy in the relationship even if it's not would have created if you could magically change pwBPD.

I was in a somewhat similar situation with my dBPDxh.  He didn't have a partner in his poor financial decisions, but he had a long history of making unilateral decisions about how to spend our money and I was constantly having to clean up the financial messes he created.  There were also a lot of other relationship issues that eroded trust, but finances became one focal point that led me to the decision to seek a legal separation.  He had started a business as an LLC, which protected me from finanical liability BUT did not eliminate the impact that his poor financial choices would have on both of us and our children.  By going through a legal separation, all marital assets were split and he no longer had access to "my portion", so at least that was secure. 

Ultimately, the boundaries I drew around what would be acceptable to me in a marriage relationship were not boundaries he was willing to live with.  As one of the members said on another board "I was his toaster for many years.  I stopped making toast.  He went and found a new toaster."  It sounds like you've covered the first two parts of this in some areas and the third part is up to him.  He can either learn to make his own toast (start acting responsibly with financial decisions/make joint decisions with you) or find a new toaster (leave you for someone who will allow him to continue in his current behavior).  The key for you is to not go back to making his toast.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

BG
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Woolspinner2000
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« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2018, 08:42:25 PM »

Excerpt
The most respected and evidence based therapy for couples is called Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT), and going to a therapist that is well trained in EFT can be a worthy investment.

zachira, I have not heard of this before and will have to look into it. I'm actually considering separation for a while to see if we can decide where this marriage is going to go. It's almost like he's having an affair with this man because of how obsessed he is with him. It is a magnet, pulling him in. I think a lot of that has to do with N traits in both men, and they feed upon each other and their needs are met. Thank you for the book idea. I wrote down the title and will see if I can find it at our local library.

ForeverDad, I hope the same:

Excerpt
Let's hope you've built your boundaries as bricks and not straw.

It is very hard to hold fast when all my learning from growing up screams otherwise, yet the pull of that old thinking learned while growing up under my uBPDm has lessened considerably through these past years of T. I do struggle to allow myself permission to set those boundaries around myself and our finances. I was thinking about the way we define boundary setting on this site, and that includes thoughts about what our values are. If I weren't able to see value in myself now, then I wouldn't be able to know that I have options. In the past I've felt so trapped with no options out. Now I know that the combination of boundaries, valuing myself, and saying no to letting this continue is probably not a bad thing at all. Is it a good thing? I don't think I can say that yet. This detaching process is tough. Yet I know I should be seen as important too, as a part of this marriage and not just a puppet to be told what to do. How interesting that DH doesn't want to hear my opinion, yet he wants my income (W2) so that he can get a loan. Without me he may not be able to get the loan. He doesn't want me yet he needs what I can do. What a paradox.  I'm feeling taken advantage of.

Excerpt
Sounds like there's some resistance since he is trying to keep you from changing or setting boundaries for yourself.  He wants you to remain passive and acquiescing.

He will continue minimizing the risks, minimizing the import of a serious rap sheet.  You have multiple professionals who agree with your shock and concern.  Can you continue making a firm stand to protect yourself, if not also him from himself too?

I'm hoping that I can continue forward in my plan to leave for a few days this coming week to think about things. I very much need to step away from the house and him so I can think clearly without having to keep my guard up or deal with the mood swings he's having. He's been very helpful around the house of late. While it's nice and I tell him thank you, I cannot allow this nice behavior to move me away from my firm stand.

Excerpt
Immovable object versus the relentless irresistible force?

Oh how true this is. It is relentless, his pursuing and pushing me for giving in to his wishes, and add to that his focus on what my position should be as a Christian wife and his as the leader. That's a whole other can of worms.

BeagleGirl, this is helpful:

Excerpt
I think those who have been most successful in staying in their marriages to pwBPD are those who have focused on changing the aspects of their behavior that contribute to marriage issues and creating boundaries that minimize the impact of their pwBPD's harmful behaviors on them.  At times, pwBPD decide that they don't want to live with the new boundaries or nons decide that the effort of constantly defending those boundaries is more than they want to deal with for the rest of their lives, and the marriage ends.

It really is getting harmful to me, and really always has been. I'm just facing it more and more. However, even though it's been hard, I have learned so much in the process and gotten so much stronger. It's as if the blinders keep dropping off, and I am seeing so much more clearly.  The harm has been there verbally and emotionally, and now it is extending into financial harm.  I understand from what the attorney said that while I wouldn't be liable financially, it would affect the long term in that I would get less money in the event of divorce or death because all the assets and debts would have to be taken care of within the corporation first.

I am so tired. It is a heavy load.

Wools
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zachira
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« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2018, 10:12:47 PM »

Wools,
Just want to give you a big hug with all you are going thru.
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« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2018, 05:44:16 AM »

Wools

I'm hoping that I can continue forward in my plan to leave for a few days this coming week to think about things. I very much need to step away from the house and him so I can think clearly without having to keep my guard up or deal with the mood swings he's having. He's been very helpful around the house of late. While it's nice and I tell him thank you, I cannot allow this nice behavior to move me away from my firm stand.

Wondering how you are? And with zachira I'm sending you a big hug.

WDx
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