Has anyone developed a litmus test for dating new people?

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

So much of her pathology was hidden until well into the relationship that looking back, I’m still not sure what I might have done to protect myself.

I even remember saying early on how great our “conflict resolution skills” were. I’d be funny if it weren’t so sad.

I’m so afraid of unnecessary mistrust and I don’t want my experience here to poison a fresh start with someone new.

How do you prevent the damage we’ve sustained here from bleeding over into subsequent relationships, while still learning from our mistakes and keeping ourselves safe?

[DogMan75]

So much of her pathology was hidden until well into the relationship that looking back, I’m still not sure what I might have done to protect myself.

I even remember saying early on how great our “conflict resolution skills” were. I’d be funny if it weren’t so sad.

I’m so afraid of unnecessary mistrust and I don’t want my experience here to poison a fresh start with someone new.

How do you prevent the damage we’ve sustained here from bleeding over into subsequent relationships, while still learning from our mistakes and keeping ourselves safe?

[Cromwell]

If you remember back to the early start of the r/s, first meeting her, did your intuition ever tell you that something was wrong about her?

In my case, yes, but I made excuses for it, gave the benefit of the doubt and didnt challenge anything because part of me was excited about the craziness and the association with sexual behaviour that went with it.

It wasnt so much she did her real side - she did - but that I switched off my intuiton and any advice from anyone else.

using experience (and you will have got plenty) plus your intuition should be enough to screen automatically, as long as you let it, not regard it as something that could "poision" or that you are judging someone too harshly. If something seems too good to be true, chances are it is, at the same time just take your time and set a steady pace to find out more before rushing in. if you feel pressurised, that is a red flag in itself.

[zachira]

I am in the process of developing a litmus test for dating new people. I think one challenge for me is separating sexual arousal from sexual attraction from empathetic connection. It is possible to be sexually aroused yet not really sexually attracted to someone. It is possible to have sex with someone without there being any empathetic connection.
I am principally looking at if there is a real mutual empathetic connection between the two of us, all of which takes time.
I have recently been asked out by two men who were clearly in a hurry to start dating and I felt very uncomfortable as I barely knew them. When I turned them down, they kept on insisting on going out with me, and all I could think of was what would it be like to be alone with them, and having them try to force me to have sex with them.
I am looking for a man that is willing to take the time to get to know me as a friend, who cares for me and I care for him.
To be continued as I develop my litmus test.

[gotbushels]

  at the thread title DogMan75. I think the board membership ranked #2 on "greens" personality type, i.e., the theoretical, technical, and scientific type.

... .I’m still not sure what I might have done to protect myself.

You're not alone on this one. Many of us have asked ourselves the same thing.

I even remember saying early on how great our “conflict resolution skills” were. I’d be funny if it weren’t so sad.

Me too, I can appreciate at how this feels. There was a time when I was carrying around a conflict resolution book to get my reading done on the commute and I felt self-conscious about it. I think in the long run as a private skill, it pays off heaps. When we can see what a conflict looks like, how to resolve it, I think it makes us better preventers (more confrontation, less avoidance). I think that's really a great thing for us for relationships going forward.

I’m so afraid of unnecessary mistrust and I don’t want my experience here to poison a fresh start with someone new.

Again, lots of us know this here. In fact, this is something that 3-4 years out I think of from time to time.

Something that might be helpful to you is this article on Characteristics of Healthy Relationships. I still refer to it from time to time.  

[DogMan75]

I can appreciate at how this feels. There was a time when I was carrying around a conflict resolution book to get my reading done on the commute and I felt self-conscious about it. I think in the long run as a private skill, it pays off heaps. When we can see what a conflict looks like, how to resolve it, I think it makes us better preventers (more confrontation, less avoidance). I think that's really a great thing for us for relationships going forward.

It’s ironic that I was the best boyfriend to her that I’ve ever been to anyone. I think our age difference, coupled with my understanding of her illness inspired a patience in me that I’ve never had with other partners. For a long while, she brought our the best in me, until she brought out the worst in me.

Later, I would say the most hurtful things, just to get her away from me, to stop attacking me. I really regret those things. I should have let go before then. I became someone I’m really not, someone I didn’t want to be, because I didn’t recognize my own limits. I learned those limits the hard way.

Hard way or not, I learned them, and knowing them is valuable. I won’t ever make that mistake again, to the benefit of my subsequent relationships. Pain is a great teacher, I guess.

I took another look at Characteristics of Healthy Relationships. According to the questions at the end, the relationship was ”healthy” (? from my end, anyway), somehow, my partner was not, and the boundaries were a mixed bag.

I am having a hard time reconciling those boundary issue results, despite the obvious bad outcome. It was love at first sight for me, it really was. I’d never even believed in it before, I thought it was malarkey, but there I was. I know the pattern of BPD love relationships, and I know how it must sound, but I stand by it still.

All the things I loved about her were real. Those qualities were not affectations or mirroring, that’s really who she is. Unfortunately, there were other qualities that were detrimental, and yet others that were necessary but missing, but the love itself was real and truly beautiful. I can’t say I regret that. It expanded the capacity of my heart.

[DogMan75]

If you remember back to the early start of the r/s, first meeting her, did your intuition ever tell you that something was wrong about her?

There were a couple moments, sure, but they were pretty subtle. I did consciously note them, but they were not a big enough deal to hit the brakes over, either.

This is the difficulty with the balance I’m trying to achieve. I don’t want to be a paranoid mess, neurotically sabotaging any new relationship over any irregularity.

I guess I’ll just have to feel it out.

[DogMan75]

I have recently been asked out by two men who were clearly in a hurry to start dating and I felt very uncomfortable as I barely knew them. When I turned them down, they kept on insisting on going out with me, and all I could think of was what would it be like to be alone with them, and having them try to force me to have sex with them.
I am looking for a man that is willing to take the time to get to know me as a friend, who cares for me and I care for him.

Pushy is a definite deal-breaker. Good for you for being slow and steady. It sounds to me like you’re on the right track!

[MaybeMaybeNot]

There are some things I will watch closely in the future. First, if it feels too good to be true, it is very likely that something is wrong. If it feels boring, that´s probably a very good sign that the other person is healthy. Second, if I hear something completely exaggerated (you are perfect, I love you etc.) in the first dates, this is almost sure sign that there is idealization going on. I have to keep my ego in check so I will not get sucked in by flattering. I guess we all know what is the other side of that coin. I would also be worried if the other person starts speaking about her exes in the first dates, especially if she blames her exes and do not take any responsibility for the demise of those relationships. And oh yeah, this one: "I am afraid you will abandon me/disappear etc".

[gotbushels]

   well done on looking over the article DogMan75.

According to the questions at the end, the relationship was ”healthy” (? from my end, anyway), somehow, my partner was not, and the boundaries were a mixed bag.

OK.

It seems for your relationship with your ex, the issues seemed to show up after about 4 months. If you're looking for something closer to an actual litmus test which you can use within a day of meeting her, then I don't think there is one.    I imagine someone holding BPD-litmus paper to someone else's tongue.

Looking at your introductory post, the questions on relationship health would probably have been triggered regarding the issue on the third party--but again, that's at the 4 month mark. Is 4 months too long for you? I think there were people on here that mentioned that signs didn't show until 6-12 months in. So in that context I think 4 months is actually pretty good.

[JNChell]

I like the direction that this topic is going. All excellent points. What sticks out to me the most is how much intuition is observed here, probably because this has been a recent discussion with my psychologist. I was conditioned as a child to not trust or listen to my intuition, and like so many other things, that bad habit has followed me into adulthood. My T is helping me to understand the importance of “trusting my gut”. This alone has caused me quite a bit of grief, not just in Cluster B scenarios, but other facets of my life. Great thread!

[once removed]

certainly there are some things that i watch for, that i dont want in a future relationship. they are pretty easy to spot, and screen out.

i like what a member said recently, which was that we dont become a pro bowler by learning how to avoid throwing gutter balls.

when we have examined the types of people and relationships we tend to gravitate to, and we focus more on the things we want in a partner, then work toward becoming strong and healthy, capable and attractive ourselves of having that type of relationship, then we can start to switch gears to a healthier model.

first things first, though. have you fully grieved the relationship?

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Dogman75, Great topic!  I think it's helpful to have a short list of the qualities that are most important to you in a r/s, going forward.  In other words, it's easier to spot the right person if you know what you are looking for.  Having your own personal litmus test of two or three "key" attributes is a good starting point, in my view.  Beyond that, I concur with zachira and E.M. Forster, who wrote, "Only Connect."

LuckyJim

[lighthouse9]

I really like LJ's focus on what you're looking for in a relationship. I think at times in the past, I let myself get intrigued by someone, told them all about myself because they were SUCH good listeners, and that made it easy for them to mirror me. I couldn't see it at the time, because a lot of the things I want in a relationship are pretty normal things, and it didn't quite occur to me that someone could be so empty inside that they would mirror another person.

I've found myself intrigued by a person I encounter a few times a week in a public setting lately. We've started a casual banter that is kind and thoughtful and I enjoy the interaction. It's the kind of banter that any person that encountered either of us in these situations could engage in, so I'm not too worried right now about whether one of us is pursuing the other or not. However, I really enjoy these encounters and I realized why I'm intrigued by her: she seems incredibly genuine and sweet to everyone she encounters. It's been nice to sit back and observe a human being who seems to naturally bring a level of kindness to people in her life, whether they can do something for her or not. It gives me faith that more people like that exist, and I've realized that I want to eventually be with someone like that. It's nice to have a model for what that looks like.

So, maybe that would be a fruitful exercise for you? Consider something you'd like to find in a partner and see if you can find it in the people you encounter, whether you are attracted to them physically/romantically or not. What do those things look like in real life and how do you know someone isn't faking it or mirroring?

[BeagleGirl]

I touched on this topic in my therapy session today, but more around touching the "BPD litmus paper" to my own tongue.  Am I creating an environment that would be welcoming to a BPD?

My T knows I'm an over functioner.  We're working on that.  She knows (as a recovering over functioner herself) that that tendency will pop out at different times and places.  Her goal for me at this stage is to be extra vigilant about keeping it from popping out in my (potential) romantic relationships.  I should be watching the relative effort being extended and not exceed the average. 

For months she has been telling me that I should not even consider a romantic relationship until I know my own value.  I feel like I've made progress in that area.  I'm hoping that makes me less attractive to the "wrong" type of person.  I will be asking for them to invest in a relationship with me at a level at or above my estimate of my worth.  Someone who doesn't value me highly enough will hopefully see me as too much work and move on, and I will be okay with that.  Those who have the resources to invest at that level will still have to prove to be a good investment for me.  All I need to do is hold onto this knowledge that I am okay on my own and I won't fall into the temptation to accept any old offer that comes along.

Sorry boys.  This Beagle is looking to be chased.  If you can catch me and run along side me for a while, maybe I'll let you be my hunting partner.

BG

[DogMan75]

It seems for your relationship with your ex, the issues seemed to show up after about 4 months. If you're looking for something closer to an actual litmus test which you can use within a day of meeting her, then I don't think there is one.    I imagine someone holding BPD-litmus paper to someone else's tongue.

Looking at your introductory post, the questions on relationship health would probably have been triggered regarding the issue on the third party--but again, that's at the 4 month mark. Is 4 months too long for you? I think there were people on here that mentioned that signs didn't show until 6-12 months in. So in that context I think 4 months is actually pretty good.

Yeah, but by four months I was completely devoted to her. In talking to you and the others in this discussion, I think I’m working it out a bit. I think the boundaries issue might be key here for me.

Lying is pretty much the worst thing you can do, in my book. If you don’t have honesty and trust, you don’t have a real relationship. One party (at least) ends up operating in this phantom reality, invented by the lying party and you just can’t get anywhere like that.

I think if I had made that boundary clear, right from beginning: no lying, at all, no matter what, and then stuck to that resolution when lying was first uncovered, we’d still be broken up right now, but I’d have five years of my life back and saved myself immeasurable pain.

I gave her a pass that first time, then how many times after? How many lies did I never discover? What reality was I really living in?

Boundaries, man. No lying. Live and learn.

Once again, we’re back to “it’s not about them, it’s about us.”

[DogMan75]

Hey Dogman75, Great topic!  I think it's helpful to have a short list of the qualities that are most important to you in a r/s, going forward.  In other words, it's easier to spot the right person if you know what you are looking for.  Having your own personal litmus test of two or three "key" attributes is a good starting point, in my view.  Beyond that, I concur with zachira and E.M. Forster, who wrote, "Only Connect."

LuckyJim

I think you’re exactly right. I think this relationship has highlighted the importance of certain absolutely necessary requirements for me, and I need to make myself leave should they be missing or compromised, whether I want to or not.

[DogMan75]

What do those things look like in real life and how do you know someone isn't faking it or mirroring?

That’s the million dollar question, isn’t it?  Complicated by the fact that some degree of mirroring is normal in the attraction, courting process. So much of our initial courtship seemed so familiar and normal, just more so than usual.

Part of what I’m afraid of from here on out is ruining a perfectly good, normal, healthy attraction with another person, just by being proportionally more suspicious with those very people I find most attractive? How insidious.

I guess I’ll just have to be mindful not to be too much either way: not too suspicious, not too trusting. Sounds like good advice to myself, I’d say, right? When is “be mindful” ever bad advice?

[DogMan75]

I touched on this topic in my therapy session today, but more around touching the "BPD litmus paper" to my own tongue.  Am I creating an environment that would be welcoming to a BPD?

My T knows I'm an over functioner.  We're working on that.  She knows (as a recovering over functioner herself) that that tendency will pop out at different times and places.  Her goal for me at this stage is to be extra vigilant about keeping it from popping out in my (potential) romantic relationships.  I should be watching the relative effort being extended and not exceed the average. 

For months she has been telling me that I should not even consider a romantic relationship until I know my own value.  I feel like I've made progress in that area.  I'm hoping that makes me less attractive to the "wrong" type of person.  I will be asking for them to invest in a relationship with me at a level at or above my estimate of my worth.  Someone who doesn't value me highly enough will hopefully see me as too much work and move on, and I will be okay with that.  Those who have the resources to invest at that level will still have to prove to be a good investment for me.  All I need to do is hold onto this knowledge that I am okay on my own and I won't fall into the temptation to accept any old offer that comes along.

Sorry boys.  This Beagle is looking to be chased.  If you can catch me and run along side me for a while, maybe I'll let you be my hunting partner.

BG

This all sounds really solid! Good for you!

You know, when I asked this question, I was thinking about how to suss out the facets that people hide, but that can be really tough. Yeah, people eventually have to be themselves, but that can take months, and by then it can be too late.

Once again the real answers seem to be found not by looking at our partners, but by looking inward. The only variables we can truly control are our own.

[DogMan75]

first things first, though. have you fully grieved the relationship?

Fully? I’m not sure I can even imagine what fully grieved means in this context, but I can tell you that by whatever your definition of it is, the answer is “Oh no.”

I finally called it quits in November, but have still been basically in constant communication with her until June 1-3, which I think I need to consider our real breakup.

Until then, I was still hoping she’d pull her act together and get motivated to change. I hadn’t really accepted that as reality, still half living in hope until then.

The first week of June was the worst I’ve felt since my daughter’s mom and I broke up 12 years ago, I’m not sure which was worse. This one, maybe, I think. Part of what makes this so sad is not that I don’t think I’ll ever get over it, I know I will, but that she continues to be so fundamentally sad, so broken, and there’s nothing I can do to help her but let her go.

I feel like there will always be a part of me that will always grieve for her, it will just take up less and less of my thoughts as time goes by. Even that strikes me as sad, too.

[zachira]

How do we know a person is safe, that they are presenting themselves as they truly are, not just trying to impress us? I say look at their body language. If they are comfortable in their own skin and their actions correspond you may have a keeper.