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QBert

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« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2018, 09:20:24 AM »

I know when my pwBPD has relationship troubles (with me or others), communication becomes sparse.  And when the communication is sparse, assumptions are made -- assumptions that are often the worse possible outcomes, whether they be true or not (they are almost always not).  These assumptions turn into obsessive thoughts that churn over and over like butter and cream churning in a pot...without end, until they are interrupted.

So by you agreeing to accept a divorce, that may be read as you want the divorce also (in fact, I'd place money on it).  If that is untrue, you should actively correct it.
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Sufferingsoul34
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« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2018, 09:27:41 AM »

Ok thanks. So maybe because I called her bluff she now thinks I’m the one that wants the divorce? Even though I told her it’s her decision. I’m still new to learning how BPDs minds work so thank you again everybody for the advice. Do you think I should wait for her to call again or contact me then mention I will be coming back to Utah as I want the marriage to work? Her first response will probably be ‘I don’t want to be with you’ but I don’t know, she may even say don’t come back and then the next day ask when I am going back.
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« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2018, 09:30:04 AM »

I am basically just trying to figure out a good time to say I don’t want a divorce without her walking all over me.
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QBert

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« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2018, 09:38:10 AM »

Ok thanks. So maybe because I called her bluff she now thinks I’m the one that wants the divorce? Even though I told her it’s her decision. I’m still new to learning how BPDs minds work so thank you again everybody for the advice. Do you think I should wait for her to call again or contact me then mention I will be coming back to Utah as I want the marriage to work? Her first response will probably be ‘I don’t want to be with you’ but I don’t know, she may even say don’t come back and then the next day ask when I am going back.

When and how the communication should be made -- that's always a tough call.  I'd say, she's coming to you, let that trend continue and make it clear when next you communicate.  I'd say you need to set the record straight in the next 48 hours though, if that means you initiating the talk, so be it.  I'd avoid text messages.  Call her in 24-48 hours if she doesn't reach out to you.  If she don't answer, send a text saying you'd like to talk on the phone.

Text conversations over serious matters are horrible.  Too many precious non-verbals are lost (phone has the same problem -- but to a much lesser extent!).  And when communication is lost (via an extremely poor communication medium), assumptions (often bad ones) fill in the gaps.  I'm not saying change your plans and fly back ASAP -- I'm saying refuse to hold a serious conversation via text.

Others may have better thoughts that vary on this.  I'd be curious to hear them.
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« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2018, 10:19:13 AM »

Ok so my issue is that when I go back to Utah, I don’t want the same again. I want her to go back to therapy and continue taking her Prozac, and also for her to stop messaging guys on Snapchat etc for attention. How would I go about doing this? My therapist says boundaries are important but of course with a borderline it’s difficult.

id put this on the back burner. a laundry list of demands arent usually conducive to resuscitating a relationship. thats the kind of thing to work to get on the same page about, together, and slowly, when and if the relationship gets back to more stable ground.

I’m still new to learning how BPDs minds work so thank you again everybody for the advice.

the same way yours and mine does, but with a much higher than average fear of abandonment, engulfment, rejection, and sensitivity to criticism. you dont need to learn a new language, just to understand her needs as a very sensitive person - she may not always understand them herself or communicate them the greatest.

emotional dysregulation (we arent really talking about that in the context of all this) is the exception. a person who is emotionally dysregulated isnt typically coming from an "understandable" place.

Call her in 24-48 hours if she doesn't reach out to you.  If she don't answer, send a text saying you'd like to talk on the phone.

i think this is good advice. at the end of the day, you know your wife better than we do, shes been your partner for five years. you know how to talk to her, anxiety just makes all of that complicated and we can feel unsure of ourselves.

you dont want to beg, of course. and you need to understand there is some risk of rejection if she is dead set on divorce. but theres absolutely nothing to be lost by being upfront that you love your wife, and you do not wish to be divorced.
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Sufferingsoul34
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« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2018, 12:55:06 PM »

Thank you for all of your great advice. My issue is that she usually reaches out to me when she’s missing me or thinking about me. We had our chat a couple of nights ago which like you said is what she needed. The first part of our conversation she was asking if I am going to Utah, I said I am definitely going there so I am thinking maybe that’s what she was looking for in our conversation. I will think what to do, is there any reason why you said to contact within 24/48 hours?
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« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2018, 01:02:06 PM »

Thank you for all of your great advice. My issue is that she usually reaches out to me when she’s missing me or thinking about me. We had our chat a couple of nights ago which like you said is what she needed. The first part of our conversation she was asking if I am going to Utah, I said I am definitely going there so I am thinking maybe that’s what she was looking for in our conversation. I will think what to do, is there any reason why you said to contact within 24/48 hours?

I think it's preferable she comes to you -- she'll be more open to the conversation then.

At the same time, I think the false belief (if it exists) needs to be corrected.  The longer it spins around inside her head, the more damage it may cause.

That's just my $.02.  Again, others may have better thoughts that are worth considering.
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« Reply #37 on: August 21, 2018, 04:00:04 PM »

Yes that’s the thing. I don’t know if she thinks I don’t want to be with her as I’ve said multiple times I didn’t want the divorce and told her I will be coming back to Utah in our last conversation so I’m guessing that’s what she wanted to hear. My only fear is that she knows I am coming back and knows that I don’t want the divorce so if I repeat it and say it again she might walk over me with the control part of it.

She also just messaged me a random message asking if I heard about some plane in the sky losing its wheels... it’s like she’s looking for an excuse to make conversation with me...
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« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2018, 04:06:06 PM »

it’s like she’s looking for an excuse to make conversation with me...

so make conversation with her.

what has she said, directly, when you, directly, have said you dont want the divorce.
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« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2018, 04:08:00 PM »

so make conversation with her.

what has she said, directly, when you, directly, have said you dont want the divorce.

I was just about to say make conversation with her. It is an opening of communication and communication breakdown is what causes a lot of issues to keep going.  Once communication has resumed, things can get better. Of course, you know it can turn back around quickly as well.
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« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2018, 04:16:09 PM »

Yes I am having general conversation with her and she’s talking about her studies etc. that’s why I feel it’s not thought  time to talk about marriage issues when she’s opening up and talking to me like normal things again like she did on the phone call a couple of days ago.
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« Reply #41 on: August 21, 2018, 04:56:39 PM »

When I’ve said I don’t want the divorce in the past she has said that she isn’t happy and doesn’t know what she wants. She says various things. It can go from doesn’t know what she wants, doesn’t deserve me, she said she fell in love with somebody else a few years ago, but mostly she says it’s too late to fix things and doesn’t want us to get couples therapy. Then couple of days later she’s all over me...
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Sufferingsoul34
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« Reply #42 on: August 21, 2018, 07:09:04 PM »

Ok update. We spoke and she was talking general chat again and that she’s getting an attorney to sort out a car crash she was in a while ago. Then she said shall she get an attorney for us? I said what do you mean? She said well you mentioned getting a lawyer on the past for the divorce, I did once when she mentioned divorce a while ago. So I told her no I don’t want a divorce, she said well if you don’t give it to me then I will have to get one. End of conversation. I don’t know whether to text her now or what to do... heads screwed again and now she’s wanting the divorce again but for some reason contacting me a lot... so I just leave it and give a breather for a few days.
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Sufferingsoul34
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« Reply #43 on: August 21, 2018, 07:09:38 PM »

I am tempted to message her and say we don’t need an attorney I can give you what you want, but then it may seem
Like I want it when I don’t.
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Sufferingsoul34
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« Reply #44 on: August 21, 2018, 07:12:06 PM »

Also tempted to say why didn’t you take the divorce papers in Washington DC when they were sat there signed for a week... but I am not going to text her now when in this emotional state.
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Sufferingsoul34
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« Reply #45 on: August 21, 2018, 07:13:55 PM »

She just messaged me ‘trust me you don’t want me back’ what does she mean by that? Really getting to my head now.
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Sufferingsoul34
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« Reply #46 on: August 21, 2018, 07:14:37 PM »

I asked what she meant by that and she said I shouldn’t want her. Somebody please give some advice if you’re around, thank you.
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Sufferingsoul34
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« Reply #47 on: August 22, 2018, 01:45:18 AM »

I replied to her message asking why she tbinkgs that. And she said ‘nothing has changed, that’s it’
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QBert

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« Reply #48 on: August 22, 2018, 07:43:53 AM »

I'm very sorry to hear you had a bad night at it.  I know that's rough.

It sounds as though she's in a place where she's crippled with shame.  If you search the message boards here and google about "BPD Shame" you will find many good readings.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/shame-powerful-painful-and-potentially-dangerous-emotion

Shame can drive her to feel unworthy.

What she's feeling shame over?  I don't know.  Maybe that she's so back and forth on your marriage?

It sounds like one of her main drivers for divorce right now is feeling unworthy.  That's just my read.  As before, keep talking/listening (listening especially!).  Now that words are flowing, it may be easier to discern what's going on.
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« Reply #49 on: August 22, 2018, 12:31:44 PM »

is there any kind of ongoing emotional crisis in her life, apart from the divorce, that you know of? possibly something that led up to her asking for divorce?

regardless, shes definitely going through a lot. these are common statements of an emotionally unavailable person, a lot of self loathing, a lot of "you deserve better".

it may seem counter intuitive, but try not to argue with her perspective or convince her how worthy she is, that sort of thing. it can feel like the natural inclination to argue that you do want her back, etc. this can actually reinforce feelings of unworthiness, shame, etc. it sounds like youve avoided doing that so far, but shes shutting down when you ask her to elaborate.

do you know when you might see her next?
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Sufferingsoul34
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« Reply #50 on: August 22, 2018, 12:52:08 PM »

She has been saying about divorce for the past 4 years, I just presumed it was her thing to try to hurt me as days later she was all over me like I’m the last guy on earth...
She hit a motorcyclist 3 months ago as he ran a red light. He survived but she was affected by it, I sped to comfort her at the scene. Also her best friend dog died around a year ago and she didn’t Grieve properly over that. When she was messaging me yesterday she said her doctor has doubled her Prozac dosage but I didn’t ask any questions about it.
Maybe she’s feeling shame about the push/pull or maybe shame that she had affairs in the past (no sex but she said things happened with people at parties). She is also Mormon so maybe the shame hits her more that she feels even less worthy.
She is also studying for the lsat at the moment and in her messages yesterday it consisted of the lsat studying is very hard and maybe she should go back to being a graphic designer. I told her she is very smart and can become a lawyer but it’s also important to have backup plans if she chooses another path like graphic design. She said she wishes she had 5 lives to do everything she wants.
The conversation of the attorney is because she had been speaking to an attorney for the car crash and then asked if we should get an attorney, that’s when I said no I don’t want the divorce and that’s when she sent the texts.

Hope this makes sense, I’m at my wits end again on what to do and kind of having regrets of telling her I don’t want the divorce as that’s when she hit me hardest but basically saying she will get a lawyer if I don’t want it, but I guess she knows that so I think I’m just going to wait until she next contacts me and take your advice and listen and try not to let whatever she says get to me.

I am hoping to see her in 3 weeks. My dad has an operation two weeks today so I want to make sure everything is ok with him before flying back to Utah. I told my wife that.
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Sufferingsoul34
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« Reply #51 on: August 22, 2018, 05:51:53 PM »

I am having mixed emotions now about telling her I didn’t want the divorce as maybe that’s what she was looking for? Please tell me I was righ saying that as I really don’t want the divorce but am worried it’s playing into her hands and that’s the control she was looking for...?
I just spoke to her Mum on the phone as me and her Mum speak about my wife (wife doesn’t know as of course borderlines like everybody to think their marriage is perfect right) and her Mum says that she has sold loads of our stuff to raise money as she didn’t have any... not a good sign but apparently she did this last week before all of the calls and texts this weekend to me... and she has just started a double dose of prozac daily so maybe now she’s back on that her emotions are more stable and that’s why she started messaging me. I don’t know but what I do know if today has been a tough day.
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« Reply #52 on: August 22, 2018, 07:11:05 PM »

ill reply in greater depth when i get a chance but i wanted to say two things quickly:

1. it was not a bad move to tell your wife you do not wish to divorce

2. i see no sign your wife is playing control games with you

it took some being vulnerable to tell her what you said. thats okay, and it was necessary. being a bit vulnerable when trying to save a marriage doesnt give control to anyone.
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« Reply #53 on: August 23, 2018, 03:18:41 PM »

Also she might be feeling a lot of emotions because she got herself in like $15k of credit card debt by just spending loads on clothes etc. maybe that’s why she felt the need to sell things and is feeling extra pressure. I used to help her pay things at the beginning but she just kept spending more and more to I had to have a boundary.
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« Reply #54 on: August 23, 2018, 05:06:39 PM »

Maybe she’s feeling shame about the push/pull or maybe shame that she had affairs in the past (no sex but she said things happened with people at parties). She is also Mormon so maybe the shame hits her more that she feels even less worthy.

how recently was that? did the two of you ever work it out? 
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« Reply #55 on: August 23, 2018, 08:16:43 PM »

I offered to pay off her credit card debt around 18 months ago and had the cash to pay $5k but she said she didn’t want it. We didn’t work anytbing out, she grew the debt and had a boob job for $5k and spent more on random stuff including a cruise with her Mum for $5k. My mistake is that I told her I would pay the minimum
Payments when we were in dc but she got given a $2k payment from tax return just before we went so I thought it would be covered with the money she got as minimum payments were only $300 a month so I didn’t mention it and literally spent $10k on rent and a great lifestyle over the summer but all she talked about was the money I didn’t give her for the minimum payments and not all the money I spent to support her internship. My friends say it’s pure manipulation but I still feel bad
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« Reply #56 on: August 23, 2018, 08:18:22 PM »

On the affairs she was dating s guy 3 years ago but didn’t have sex just spent time with him, then more recently around a year ago we were having sex and she told me she played spin the bottle
With guys so pretty much kissed and did other stuff. It she said she didn’t have sex and she said she wouldn’t while
Married to
Me.

And that was the reason I left last time as she told me during sex she had this spin the bottle so I left. A week later she begged me to go back as I was still in the same city so I told her to promise she would stop contacting other guys but I wasn’t strong enough making sure she would do it. I went back at that time
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Sufferingsoul34
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« Reply #57 on: August 24, 2018, 06:23:58 AM »

So I am in a dilemmma about what to do next. I haven’t heard anything more from her. Do I reach out to her or wait for her to reach out to me? I don’t want her to feel trapped in the marriage as maybe now she is thinking I am forcing to be with her, will a bpd feel trapped and want space and escape? When she reaches out to me what do I do? Just continue listening and acting normal? Do you think it’s a good idea to mention I can help with her minimum credit card payments if she’s having trouble paying? My heads kind of screwed up again with all of this and I hate not being able to communicate with her after she was calling me all weekend I feel like I’ve screwed things up still by mentioning I didn’t want the divorce, but she did bring it up...
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« Reply #58 on: August 24, 2018, 12:41:10 PM »

If it were me:

1. I'd stay with my current plan that I set out with, going home when I planned and previously communicated.
2. Maintain that you don't want a divorce, but you don't want her to feel a prisoner in the relationship.
3. Don't discuss any huge financial plans until the relationship has been set back to a place where you can see it continuing with some confidence.
4. Continue to talk and listen to her when she calls. 
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« Reply #59 on: August 25, 2018, 09:26:11 PM »

Staff only

This thread has reached its posting limit and been locked.  Find Part 2 here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=328616.0
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     everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms - to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way. ~ Viktor Frankl
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