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Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse... Have you considered that being critical, judgmental, or invalidating toward the other parent, no matter what she or he just did will only make matters worse? Someone has to be do something. This means finding the motivation to stop making things worse, learning how to interrupt your own negative responses, body language, facial expressions, voice tone, and learning how to inhibit your urges to do things that you later realize are contributing to the tensions.
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Author Topic: Do the labels really matter?  (Read 698 times)
JNChell
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« on: August 25, 2018, 04:59:14 PM »

Most of us are here because we experienced abuse by someone that was/is close to us. I showed up here in tatters, convinced that my ex is BPD/NPD. Comorbid. I diagnosed her and other exes, diagnosed my parents, but that didn’t help me. In fact, it helped to keep me stuck. Stuck on a topic that I had tied to my ex. Not to mention that I’m not qualified to diagnose anyone.

Abuse is abuse. It doesn’t need a PD tied to it to make it more relevant. It’s abuse, and a person should remove themselves from it when they’re ready. We can say BPD or NPD all day long. The labels tend to send people on a wild goose chase looking for answers or fixes to the problem instead of simply realizing that abuse is abuse.

Labels help at first. That’s how we found our way here, but, do the labels really matter?
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« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2018, 05:48:09 PM »

JNChell,
Interesting topic. 
I didn't choose the label of BPD for dBPDxh.  I'd never heard of it until I read his psych eval report.  Maybe that makes my experience a bit different from yours. 

I'm really glad that the BPD "label" brought me to this community but, like you, I've kind of let go of the label over time.  My experience with dBPDxh was both eerily similar to those described by other members here, but also very unique.  BPD and this site gave me terminology to describe what I was experiencing and tools to better cope with those experiences, but it didn't encompass the "why" of my own choices and behaviors.  Now that dBPDxh is not a part of my daily life I am spending a lot more time looking at/understanding/dealing with my own behavior and thought patterns and the BPD label doesn't mean as much in that process.

I will say that I struggle more with the label of "abuse".  It is such a loaded word.  I believe that what I have experienced with dBPDxh was abuse, as are some of the things I have experienced with my dad.  In a safe environment, like with my T, I can use that label and it helps a lot of things fall into place.  But in most of my relationships using the word "abuse" to describe what I experienced seems to just cloud the issue.  I have come to realize that many people in my life can recognize the wrongness of what I experienced and sympathize with me, but as soon as the word "abuse" is spoken they draw back and start to question whether dBPDxh (a really nice guy) could be an abuser. 

Thanks again for starting this topic.  I think I'll ponder it a bit more.

BG
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« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2018, 06:07:05 PM »

This isn't going to be too validating an answer  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)

I think psychology is extremely helpful if we use it responsibility in the way it is intended. The reason to label is to understand  how a person is processing, what tools to use, what treatments apply, prognosis. 29% of the population has a DSM illness or addition. I need tools to navigate this third of society that I'm going to encounter on dating sites, work, the HOA, my church, etc.
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« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2018, 06:25:55 PM »

Hi, BG.

I will say that I struggle more with the label of "abuse".  It is such a loaded word.  I believe that what I have experienced with dBPDxh was abuse, as are some of the things I have experienced with my dad.  In a safe environment, like with my T, I can use that label and it helps a lot of things fall into place.  But in most of my relationships using the word "abuse" to describe what I experienced seems to just cloud the issue.  I have come to realize that many people in my life can recognize the wrongness of what I experienced and sympathize with me, but as soon as the word "abuse" is spoken they draw back and start to question whether dBPDxh (a really nice guy) could be an abuser. 

In my dictionary, abuse is not a loaded word. Can you explain that further? I think it would be helpful for the other readers.

am spending a lot more time looking at/understanding/dealing with my own behavior and thought patterns

This is where it’s at. Good on you for doing so. This, right here, is what our partners can’t do.
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« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2018, 06:30:03 PM »

Skip, can you further explain your post?

This isn't going to be too validating an answer  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)

I think psychology is extremely helpful if we use it responsibility in the way it is intended. The reason to label is to understand  how a person is processing, what tools to use, what treatments apply, prognosis. 29% of the population has a DSM illness or addition. I need tools to navigate this third of society that I'm going to encounter on dating sites, work, the HOA, my church, etc.
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« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2018, 08:17:04 AM »

Skip, after reading your response a few times, I realize that I should’ve elaborated more. I can see how labeling is necessary for clinicians. Standards are necessary for implementing processes. I get that. I’m talking more about the general public when it comes to “our neck of the woods”, so to speak. That maybe it’s healthier for us to gravitate towards an “abuse is abuse and should not be tolerated” mindset. I also understand that a label, BPD, lead me to this support group, and thankfully so. But I feel better about recognizing abuse for what it is. Abuse has become the label for me. I’ve experienced it from different people that I believe have different variations of different disorders. The abuse didn’t feel differently because of any given disorder that I perceived it as coming from. Abuse always feels the same regardless of it’s source. I hope I explained that well enough. Thanks For chiming in.
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« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2018, 10:39:26 AM »


In my dictionary, abuse is not a loaded word. Can you explain that further? I think it would be helpful for the other readers.



JNChell,

I found that most people (myself included) have an image in their minds of what an abuser is.  As soon as you apply the label "abuse" to what you are experiencing, that makes the person subjecting you to that abuse and abuser.  In my experience, that was hard for most people to reconcile with their experience of dBPDxh and they would start defending him or justifying his actions.  It wasn't like I was throwing that word around freely, but I quickly decided it wasn't worth it. 

I found it more effective to avoid the term "abuse" and just describe my experience.  A few people then came to the term "abuse" on their own. 

I am still working through my thoughts on whether abuse is defined by the experience of the abused or the intentions of the abuser.  I tend to put some grey area in there.  I think some behaviors can be maladaptive and incredibly hurtful without being "abusive".  That doesn't mean they are any more tolerable or acceptable, but I think there's more hope in those situations because finding a different set of behaviors seems more achievable. 

After reading "Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft, I started to think more about the sense of entitlement and "dehumanizing" of the abused in the mind of the "abuser" as the hallmark of "abuse".  In that definition it is more about the intentions of the "abuser" than the experience of the "abused".  The abuser will continue abusive behavior even when shown a "better way" because they feel entitled and the experience of the abused doesn't really matter as long as they are getting their needs met.  I think that's how I was able to reconcile the fact that some of the behaviors I demonstrated over the course of our relationship could have fallen under the category of abuse.  The difference was that those behaviors were not rooted in a sense of entitlement which meant that they didn't become repeated patterns.   They fell more under the category of "maladaptive". 

I do believe that what I experienced from dBPDxh was abuse.  There were clear patterns and a sense of entitlement and a refusal to adapt behaviors that he knew were hurtful even when shown a better way.  BUT, I do sometimes wonder how much of that was within his control.  I don't spend a lot of time thinking about it, because I don't know that I will ever have an answer and since my divorce I don't think that answer would change my response to him.  I think it would have been more of an issue if I had stayed in the relationship.

Thanks again for the thought provoking topic.  I may spend a bit more time on this with my T today.  She seems to be guiding me through digging into the dynamics of my relationships and this is a pretty big component.

BG
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« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2018, 12:48:12 PM »

Powerful insight, JNChell!  It sounds like learning about BPD/NPD felt meaningful to you when you first arrived here.  And that now you're more interested in understanding abuse.   Would it be fair to say that as you've explored what happened in your relationship more deeply, your understanding about what happened between you and your ex has changed?

I've found the labels BPD and NPD to be both helpful and limiting.  I'm here to process a relationship I had with a diagnosed person with BPD when I was a teen.  He was diagnosed while we were in the relationship.  One of the gifts of that experience was when he (on the insistence of his T) hared his new diagnosis with me.  At the time, I was incapable of understanding what it meant (this was before Google), though the BPD tidbit felt important enough for me to remember and file away.  More lately, when memories of the past started coming back to me in dreams, I was able to recall the label and explore it online which brought me here.   Arriving here helped me get into therapy.  The diagnosis also gave my T a starting point re: how to help me.  All good stuff.

On the other hand, labeling tends to nudge people (me included) toward black and white, in-the-box, thinking:  Us and them.  Non and disordered.  Normal and aberrant.  Good and evil.  I've found it helpful to remind myself that all behaviors humans do are human behaviors . . . it's just that some behaviors fall on the extreme end of the range.
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« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2018, 01:58:32 PM »

Hi, BG! Welcome new member (click to insert in post) Thanks for responding and offering more insight. Abuse is a touchy topic. It’s a topic that gets misused. It’s a topic that has gotten innocent people in a lot of trouble because of manipulative people.

In my experience, that was hard for most people to reconcile with their experience of dBPDxh and they would start defending him or justifying his actions.  It wasn't like I was throwing that word around freely, but I quickly decided it wasn't worth it. 

First, and foremost, I am very sorry that you weren’t taken seriously. I know how this feels. It doesn’t seem right. It hurts. The thing is, we can’t dictate how others think. We’re not the type of people to even consider such a thing. Our exes are professionals at this. There is no combatting it because we simply don’t reside on their level.

I understand why you retracted the word abuse. Tell yourself this. How many times have you read here that most of our people don’t get it because they’ve never been through this? Our SO’s orchestrate this stuff. They have to to survive. It’s beyond our comprehension, really. We don’t think that way. Their days, weeks and months are spent orchestrating.

I found it more effective to avoid the term "abuse" and just describe my experience.  A few people then came to the term "abuse" on their own.

I experienced this as well, and I think I’m starting to understand your point better. Upon talking to my good friend about what I had experienced without using the word, he asked me if I thought that she knew how abusive she was being. I felt validated for the first time, in a long time.

So, if I’m understanding correctly, you’re talking about using the term to describe your experience with people outside of this support group? Am I close? I’ve been talking about using the term here where it’s truly understood.

I am still working through my thoughts on whether abuse is defined by the experience of the abused or the intentions of the abuser.

IMHO, the experience of the abused comes first. Regardless of the reasons why, abusers are second class citizens unless they learn to own their crap, and cease to abuse. Disorders don’t abuse, people do. Zero tolerance from here on out. That’s my boundary.

Can you elaborate a little more on “the intentions of the abuser” from your statement?

BG, I’m sorry that we’re finding ourselves in this conversation together, but accepting the circumstances as to why, I’m very glad that we have each other to bounce this stuff off of. Thank you.



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« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2018, 02:26:05 PM »

Hello, Insom! Welcome new member (click to insert in post) How are you?

Would it be fair to say that as you've explored what happened in your relationship more deeply, your understanding about what happened between you and your ex has changed?

Absolutely, and thank you for asking. I arrived here in tatters. Feeling barely alive. Seeking answers to simply survive. My problem to face is my childhood. So that’s what I’m doing. That’s what needs to be done. I’m still grieving my ex, but I understand the dynamic now. I understand why things began, unfolded and ended the way that they did. I love her, but she abused me and I will never allow that in my life again.

I've found the labels BPD and NPD to be both helpful and limiting.  I'm here to process a relationship I had with a diagnosed person with BPD when I was a teen.  He was diagnosed while we were in the relationship.  One of the gifts of that experience was when he (on the insistence of his T) hared his new diagnosis with me.  At the time, I was incapable of understanding what it meant (this was before Google), though the BPD tidbit felt important enough for me to remember and file away.  More lately, when memories of the past started coming back to me in dreams, I was able to recall the label and explore it online which brought me here.   Arriving here helped me get into therapy.  The diagnosis also gave my T a starting point re: how to help me.  All good stuff.

Insom, this sounds like a very intimate time for you. I imagine that is was also very emotional when BPD became part of the mix. No search engines to fill our head with TMI.  I can see how the label was helpful for you. I’ve also described how that label lead me here.

On the other hand, labeling tends to nudge people (me included) toward black and white, in-the-box, thinking:  Us and them.  Non and disordered.  Normal and aberrant.  Good and evil.  I've found it helpful to remind myself that all behaviors humans do are human behaviors . . . it's just that some behaviors fall on the extreme end of the range.

I’m very glad that you and Beagle Girl chimed in on this. The label does currently serve a purpose. It gives us some direction. But, maybe it’s best to eventually let the label go as we learn and accept more.
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« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2018, 02:29:48 PM »

I brought this conversation up with my T today.  I didn't get around to it until the end of the session because I had other things to update her on/discuss, but I think we will be spending a lot of our next session on this.  I told her my two questions at this moment are:

Did what I experienced with dBPDxh qualify as abuse?

Is there any value to putting that label on it?

She gave me her short answer to both questions - "yes".  I kind of expected that answer, and her brief elaboration on that one word.  She feels that owning what I experienced and the impact it had on me is part of the grieving/healing process.  I've been able to put it in a box to a large extent, and that's what I've needed to do to get to this point with my sanity (mostly) intact, but now it's probably time to start unpacking that box.  

I'll be back soon to elaborate a bit more on the "intentions of the abuser" topic.

BG
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« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2018, 02:52:05 PM »

Hi, BG.

Beagle, it is so hard to discern how someone is truly feeling through text, so I will simply ask. Are you exhausted?

I've been able to put it in a box to a large extent, and that's what I've needed to do to get to this point with my sanity (mostly) intact, but now it's probably time to start unpacking that box.

Yeah. I hear this loud and clear. I put my stuff away for a long time. I stuffed it. I ended up in a situation that triggered it and I came undone in a big way. I think that you should trust your instincts here. It’s time to unpack, Beagle Girl. Do it at your own speed, but yeah, unpack. This stuff will find it’s way out. It’s best that you dictate how it comes out. Know what I mean? I’m glad that you’re realizing that it’s time to empty the box.
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« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2018, 04:00:46 PM »

Hi all!  Rollo May talks about this issue in his book Love and Will.  He says that a diagnosis can be helpful for therapists and psychologists because it identifies patterns and can direct research and therapeutic treatment methods.  A diagnosis can also be helpful for a patient in that it takes what is a mystery and makes it knowable.  It can help the patient feel less alone by knowing that others suffer from the same condition.

There is a caveat.  May says that if a patient focuses on the named diagnosis too much, it can become a substitute for any real work on resolving ongoing issues.  Similarly, he strongly cautions therapists from investing too much time or energy in session discussing a diagnosis.  He called this "a burlesque of therapy" and states that it prevents any real or substantial therapeutic work.

I like May's approach in seeing the value of a diagnosis but also in not allowing the diagnosis or psychological jargon become the focus instead of the real life issues that need to be addressed.
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« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2018, 05:30:29 PM »


Beagle, it is so hard to discern how someone is truly feeling through text, so I will simply ask. Are you exhausted?


JNChell,
You are an astute observer.    You have caught me on what I call a "power save mode" day.  I'm usually a very high energy person, but today I'm feeling drained.  I'm doing some self care and taking a look at what has triggered that low energy.  I don't have to look far to have a dozen legitimate reasons for my low energy.  I have a friend who frequently asks me to list the major things I'm dealing with then says "Any one of those would break ME" and he's right.    Add to that a lack of attention to eating regularly and a physically demanding weekend (9 mile training for a half marathon, a 3 hour volunteer event in heels and 3 hours of yard work in heat and humidity between Saturday and Sunday) and it's only surprising that I haven't collapsed yet. 

Despite the exhaustion I'm feeling today, I'm also feeling like the time to open the box is fast approaching.  I am learning to pace myself and have grace with myself.  I have an amazing support system.  And I just have that calm acceptance feeling that I get when I know I will be stretched but not broken.  I'm glad to have others on the journey with me.  As you said, we share experiences that many people can't really wrap their heads around.

So a bit more about what I'm thinking/feeling about the component of the intentions of the abuser -

Getting stabbed doesn't physically hurt any less if you fall on a knife vs being stabbed.  The blood loss is the same.  The physical recovery takes the same amount of time.  Abusive behavior hurts, no matter the intentions of the "abuser", but I don't think the healing process is the same.  I feel like it's one thing to know that someone hurt you out of a lack of understanding or out of desperation/pain on their end, and another to know that someone hurt you because they felt they had the right to if it got them something they wanted. 

I know there are a million shades of grey when trying to figure out if someone really understood what they were doing.  Or if their actions were really under their control.  I can't read dBPDxh's mind or know his capabilities.  I can really only go on his words and actions.  I believe (or am coming to believe) that he had a choice and he chose to do things that hurt me even when there was an alternative course of action available to him.  I feel like that understanding has its own grieving process associated with it.

My T shared with me that putting the label "abuse" on what I experienced will probably cause me to reframe some of my story in such a way that I will see that I was a victim of abuse.  I hate that word.  I don't want to have been a victim.  I am more comfortable believing that I caused/deserved the way I was treated.  In some strange way, that belief has given me an illusion of control over my destiny.  I was in control, I just failed to steer it in the direction I wanted, but if I just TRY HARDER... .  That attitude got me through nearly 23 years of marriage. 

So now I open the box and I see that a lot of the actions I took when I thought I was in control were the actions of someone who was being abused.  The 60 lb weight gain, the need to be on anxiety meds, the nightmares, the lashing out in anger and, most shameful of all, my betrayal of my wedding vows - these things all happened in the context of an abusive relationship.  It's not that I didn't have choice or can place the blame for them solely at dBPDxh's feet, but my T is encouraging me to stop carrying the full burden of failure.

So yeah.  I've got a lot of unpacking to do. 

Anyone else want to share a peek into their box?

BG
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« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2018, 06:32:04 PM »

BG, I can’t reply to your entire message right now, though I’ve read all of it. High heels and all.  I’m glad that you’re close to opening your box. You know that it needs to happen. Every answer and solution is mixed between you and that box. Don’t be afraid of of it. You already know what’s in there. Be in control of it. You’ve got this. I would suggest some nice Sanooks as opposed to high heals for walking through this, but to each their own.
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« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2018, 07:22:47 PM »

Hey, Educated_Guess.  Thanks for bringing up Rollo May.  I like the take you've outlined very much. 

All too sadly, I can relate with this, BeagleGirl:

Excerpt
My T shared with me that putting the label "abuse" on what I experienced will probably cause me to reframe some of my story in such a way that I will see that I was a victim of abuse.  I hate that word.  I don't want to have been a victim.

A  Do you watch TV/Netflix?  There are a couple of shows out in the last year or so with strong female protagonists who own their abuse unblinkingly . . .  Daenerys Targaryen in Game of Thrones and Jessica in Jessica Jones

There is power in owning what happened to you. 
 

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« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2018, 08:08:04 PM »

I don’t know why I didn’t share this earlier, but a friend of mine that has agreed to be a confidant, shared this with me today. Her Son has SMA and has gone through so much stress along the way. We’ve had our rough patches, but here we are. Still friends. Ok, here’s the quote.

Today I am asking for a little bit of grace. Not for me. Grace and mercy drip on me like rain.
A little bit of grace for those who have pushed me too far.
A little bit of grace for those who I have outgrown
A little bit of grace for those I don’t love very much
A little bit of grace for those who I reject
A little bit of grace in me for them.


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« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2018, 08:20:16 PM »

Goodnight bpdfamily.
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« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2018, 09:45:38 PM »

I would suggest some nice Sanooks as opposed to high heals for walking through this, but to each their own.

   I had no intention of attending the event in heels, but church ran long and I didn't have time to go home and change.  It was a good reminder that I should really keep a pair of flats in my car at all times.
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« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2018, 11:37:24 PM »

My ex is clinically diagnosed with depression and anxiety. She self diagnosed with "some type of attachment disorder" while she was still living with us and on her r/s with the guy she'd eventually marry. She also referred to it as her "sickness." It was a little validating but not much.  Whether or not she is BPD (I still lean "maybe"), the behaviors and how to deal with them are what count.  We have thousands of years of human history upon which to look back before modem psychology and the DSM-I, much less DSM5. Difficult people have always been with us and they always will be.  Labels aside, the tools here help us. 

When my mother told me that she thought my ex was BPD,  it was little surprise. Then my mother told me that she was BPD as well.  I had started here,  but had made my way to PSI by then.  Was I blown away by my mother's admission? No.  It was anri-climactic. Months later she shared with me that she had been in therapy for PTSD when I was a little kid,  before BPD was really known.  Very interesting, but again anti-climactic to me.  What was I to do with these relevations but in retrospect?

Regarding both of them I was angry that they didn't do more to "fix" themselves.  My ex who refused SSRIs despite her T suggesting it. Yet my mom tried them,  and it didn't work out that we'll initially at least the summer when I had graduated from high school arty 17 and was stuck at home until my 18th birthday late October when I moved out,  my mom having a meltdown I was glad to escape. 
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« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2018, 07:21:12 AM »

For me the label was really helpful in the beginning.

This woman came into my life and all I could do is ask why? Why would she do this or that? Why didn't she do this or that?  My SO told me she was off and did all this weird stuff, but knowing there was something off and truly "knowing" took interactions and time.

At about 2 years into my relationship with my SO, I Googled "Chronic Lying" and BPD came up and the shoe fit, as I've said before like Cinderella's glass slipper.  Getting a name, gave a direction, gave me something to research, the research led to learning that led to a basic understanding, and in the search to understand more my SO and I landed here.  Once here we were able to learn practical tools and speak the same language.
 
Does the label matter so much now, no not really, "it" isn't the name BPD "it" is really a set of behaviors and understanding the behaviors and what our part is in relation to our interactions with a person with this set of behaviors.

Panda39

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« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2018, 01:03:45 PM »

I was veryyy opposed to the labels when I started to end the relationship and speak about his actions. I hated to think that I had been in an abusive situation, that the person I loved and centered my life around for 8 yrs was an abuser, that I was the victim. It was also very ingrained in me that I was to blame and my flaws/shortcomings contributed to his actions/behaviors.

In many ways for me, accepting myself as someone who 'allowed myself' to be in an emotionally abusive relationship, that I 'allowed him' to behave in emotionally abusive ways and stayed was harder than ending the relationship. I knew the relationship was toxic, conflict ridden, and making me unhappy. That was much easier to accept than the terms 'victim' and 'abuser'. I also felt a lot of shame and judgement. People I confided in asking why didn't leave sooner.

However, at this point (about 2.5 months after fully ending the relationship) I appreciate the information, knowledge, insights and understanding that reading about narcissistic abuse, emotional abuse, and borderline has given me.

It's been tremendously useful to do reading and research and realize how much I'm not alone, how the dynamics, discussions, conflicts, patterns etc within my relationship are things many other people- including people I admire greatly- have also gone through.

It's also been helpful to understand what has happened to me. What happened to my identity, confidence, voice, energy, emotions. To learn about all the things that kick in, the chemicals at play, the psychology.
To learn about FOG (fear, obligation, guilt), trauma bonding, the jumps in cortisol and adrenaline and why abusive relationships are so addictive and consuming, why it was so hard to leave, why he keeps contacting me with all the heavy, desperate, begging messages to reconnect.

It really ended up giving me the tools to better understand myself, and to understand that what I experienced is actually not unique, or even rare. That it can be explained and understood. That is truly is deeply damaging, devastating, and traumatizing. That the issues I'm facing are shared among many and so many of them found their way out of the same deep dark holes. And that others have recovered.

Hugs!
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Fond memories, fella.


« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2018, 03:12:38 PM »

I think psychology is extremely helpful if we use it responsibility in the way it is intended. The reason to label is to understand  how a person is processing, what tools to use, what treatments apply, prognosis. 29% of the population has a DSM illness or addition. I need tools to navigate this third of society that I'm going to encounter on dating sites, work, the HOA, my church, etc.

I agree that psychology and relationship tools are helpful to us to understand interactions with people in all of the environments we frequent.  Even simply being sensitive to the fact that everyone is not healthy, and everyone is not playing by the same playbook, can be tremendously useful to cue us to adapt our approach, use tools, and avoid fueling conflict.  Understanding what full-blown BPD, NPD, or ASPD is also equips me to recognize folks that might just have some of those traits.  Determining their official status or the exact label is not important, especially for someone at work or in an HOA, or to decide whether to ask for a second date.

On the healing issue, I think the label of "abuse" can be important for us when we are talking with ourselves, a therapist, or a very trusted friend or family member.  But I want to avoid pinning my hopes on everyone accepting that label, especially those who know my wife as a wonderful soccer mom.  Lately, I'm struggling with another label -- crime.  Many of the things my wife did were criminal, even though the never left a mark.  She continues to try to blame me, and is insisting I was violent (this is a woman who said she was acting in self defense when she tackled me from behind as I was running away).  So, I'm not entirely sure about labels.  My current thinking is that it's important to take them out, look at them, try them on, and accept them when they are useful, but to be able to set them aside when it helps to do that as well.  Just my current thinking.

WW
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« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2018, 08:57:19 PM »

Hi, Panda39.

For me the label was really helpful in the beginning.

Through this discussion, I’m seeing that I felt this way. I needed some kind of answer. Direction. Something was wrong. I googled. This started before S3’s mother.

At about 2 years into my relationship with my SO, I Googled "Chronic Lying" and BPD came up and the shoe fit, as I've said before like Cinderella's glass slipper.  Getting a name, gave a direction, gave me something to research, the research led to learning that led to a basic understanding, and in the search to understand more my SO and I landed here.  Once here we were able to learn practical tools and speak the same language.

I’ve seen you share about “chronic lying” before. I googled it. BPD. It’s seems like being constantly lied to would be enough, but some of us stick around for it. FOO.

Does the label matter so much now, no not really, "it" isn't the name BPD "it" is really a set of behaviors and understanding the behaviors and what our part is in relation to our interactions with a person with this set of behaviors.

I’m gravitating towards this. It’s exhausting to try to decipher a Cluster B. It is what it is. Behavior.

During my T session this evening, I was able to briefly describe S3’s mom from a third party POV. I have a second cousin that is diagnosed with BPD. Im close with her, but careful. I’m very close with her mother (first cousin). After my meltdown, cousin wBPD told me that she didn’t like S3’s mom from the moment she met her. I don’t subscribe to this terminology, but my second cousin described herself as a “crazy “B”, and knows one when she sees one. I paid little attention.

In bringing this up with my T, she told me that borderlines have an uncanny knack for recognizing other ones. She told me that much of what I’ve described thus far has shown borderline traits in S3’s mom.  Of course, she couldn’t diagnose, but we talked about how a diagnosis was no longer needed. It’s the behavior.


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« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2018, 09:27:53 PM »

tin, thanks for contributing to the thread.

I was veryyy opposed to the labels when I started to end the relationship and speak about his actions. I hated to think that I had been in an abusive situation, that the person I loved and centered my life around for 8 yrs was an abuser, that I was the victim. It was also very ingrained in me that I was to blame and my flaws/shortcomings contributed to his actions/behaviors.

I’m sorry to hear this. It’s becoming an abuse victim 2x’s over. Manipulation can be a powerful thing.

In many ways for me, accepting myself as someone who 'allowed myself' to be in an emotionally abusive relationship, that I 'allowed him' to behave in emotionally abusive ways and stayed was harder than ending the relationship.

Over time, with abuse being perpetuated on us, we become broken down emotionally. We find the need to stay. To “fix” the situation, and feeling as though that what we have is the best that we can ever acquire because of the constant words of another. Does that sound familiar at all?

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« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2018, 03:56:45 PM »

JNChell   Welcome new member (click to insert in post)

I want to support these ideas Skip and Wentworth shared with you.
I need tools to navigate this third of society that I'm going to encounter on dating sites, work, the HOA, my church, etc.
Understanding what full-blown BPD, NPD, or ASPD is also equips me to recognize folks that might just have some of those traits. 

Labels help at first. That’s how we found our way here, but, do the labels really matter?
I think labels are an easy way to manage more than 1 relationship in a shorter time without having to go through material again.

For people in a relationship with a pwBPD (label on a person), the "no win game" (label on a conversation) is an easy way to handle a recurring issue more effectively.

Away from the BPD context; if I'll be dealing with someone probably "exploitative" (label on a person), and I'm aware that with most people I like to "fix" things (many of us do here), then the label helps me temper down from my usual trait level of "fixiness" that I bring to everyone else in my community. So labels here help me better manage situations.

Labels have a lot of value beyond the first use.
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« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2018, 06:56:43 PM »

Hi, Wentworth. Thank you for your insight here. I’ve come to realize, and forgive me if I go off on a tangent, there’s a lot falling into place for me right now in a very short amount of time, that being sensitive to the fact, or unknown that everyone is unhealthy in one way or another is very important. I interpret this as me being myself, and the other person being themselves and we go from there.

But I want to avoid pinning my hopes on everyone accepting that label

Agreed. “They don’t understand” is constantly pinging. You know, thankfully they don’t.

Lately, I'm struggling with another label -- crime.  Many of the things my wife did were criminal, even though the never left a mark.  She continues to try to blame me, and is insisting I was violent (this is a woman who said she was acting in self defense when she tackled me from behind as I was running away).

WW, I’m sorry about this. I can imagine the intensity of that situation. The sudden disbelief and fear. You know this, but I have to say that she is projecting. Witnessing their rages and dissociations is really something. Really, just the way it slowly ramped up into us sticking around for it. It was so subtle.

My current thinking is that it's important to take them out, look at them, try them on, and accept them when they are useful, but to be able to set them aside when it helps to do that as well.

I like this philosophy, Wentworth. Currently.
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« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2018, 07:08:43 PM »

Hi there, gotbushels! How are you?

I see now. Tools and understanding how to use them. This makes sense. Thank you for pointing this out. I have a lot of work to do in this area.

Labels have a lot of value beyond the first use.

Can you possibly describe this in a little more detail?

Hope you’re well GB.
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« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2018, 11:05:54 PM »

JNChell   Welcome new member (click to insert in post) thank you. Yes I hope you're well too.   

Labels have a lot of value beyond the first use.

Can you possibly describe this in a little more detail?
Sure. For the first example, labels beyond BPD help us to deal with situations more effectively. For the no-win game, what's common with SOs is to explain away why they love their pwBPD. Or to explain in detail how they didn't cheat and the pwBPD has no reason to be jealous--whatever your pwBPD's 'pet topic' is at that moment. So when we recognise what's happening, then we as SOs may label the situation as the no-win game, it helps us avoid those hours of explaining away. It helps up turn off the tape recorder of our X-hour fights. It helps us to choose more effective behaviour for ourselves. So if this was me, I could recall that this issue is in the pwBPD's bucket. I could recall it's got nothing to do with me. I might even recall it preexisted our relationship. Then I may set a limit of 15 minutes of handling this (if any time at all), rather than getting entranced into explaining or managing away for those X-hours.

I want to highlight that it's productive for us to recognise the label for ourselves. It's unproductive when we label to the other party what is happening. "You are BPD and you giving me a no-win game." That's going to blow up the situation. Labels can be entirely for yourself in that situation. It's about your effectiveness in that moment. Using the second example, that "exploitative" person has some input to my performance appraisal. It's a very poor idea to share my cute labels with this person. So it's about my effectiveness. This compares with what David Burns wrote simply:
Excerpt
When you label other people, you will invariably generate hostility. A common example is the boss who sees his occasionally irritable secretary as "an uncooperative bitch."




We're here to help each other move forward.
I diagnosed her and other exes, diagnosed my parents, but that didn’t help me. In fact, it helped to keep me stuck.
... .
The labels tend to send people on a wild goose chase looking for answers or fixes to the problem instead of simply realizing that abuse is abuse.
... .
Labels help at first. That’s how we found our way here, but, do the labels really matter?
So yes, labels can get you stuck. Yes, they can send you searching for how to handle a no-win game.

When you've got the answers you're satisfied with, then there's value beyond the first use. So you know a person probably has BPD. So you may already have your "answers or fixes to the problem". Yes, it may have been abusive to you. The label gives you the answer you found before.   

If you find labels are keeping you stuck, you could ask yourself why you use them. Are you using them to help yourself, to distance yourself from another person, or to hurt someone else? What can you do about it?
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« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2018, 08:56:16 AM »

Hi, gotbushels. Those are difficult questions to answer because I’m not proud of the answers that I’m going to give here.

If you find labels are keeping you stuck, you could ask yourself why you use them. Are you using them to help yourself, to distance yourself from another person, or to hurt someone else? What can you do about it?

After discussing this here, I find the labels useful in the fact that they lead me here. I did find direction through these labels and began to find an understanding of the different unpleasant dynamics that I’ve experienced throughout my life. I try to see this as a positive.

I can also say that I’m learning how to better distance myself from things that I feel are harmful for me. This is where my mind has shifted on the matter from a label to behavior that makes me weary.

Now, the part that I’m not proud of. I admit that I have used these labels maliciously to hurt my ex. I allowed my emotions to control me during these times. My feelings were that I had made myself completely vulnerable to this person. I shared my very dark and personal childhood with her, and she chose to turn it against me and reopen those old wounds. As many here know, it can be quite devastating when this happens. Objectively, I have to recognize this as being vengeful, and I don’t like the fact that I did this but I have no choice but to own it. This is woman that cuts herself. All I did was pour salt into her wounds. I wish that my apologies for doing this could be heard by her. She’s the mother of our Son and I just wish for all involved that she could be ok.

I have my own label now since re-entering therapy. C-PTSD. I found the label (diagnosis) to be helpful. It gave me direction and a clinical explanation to what is going on with me. The therapy is working and the weight is slowly being lifted. Thank you for asking me these questions. It’s helpful to answer them.

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