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Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits. Practicing lawyer, Senior Family Mediator, and former Licensed Clinical Social Worker with twelve years’ experience and an expert on navigating the Family Court process.
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Author Topic: BPD mom using kids for damage control...  (Read 748 times)
Klera
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« on: September 02, 2018, 07:06:39 PM »

Hi,

My step kids seem to be in mom's (pwBPD) camp at the moment being in the middle of her recent damage control campaign.   SD15  SS14...

She is just doing her usual patterned behaviour, similar way of her doing things she's done in the past, but recently she was caught by my DH and kids doing a drive by while he was out on a coffee date with them.   They had just gone back to her after a summer visit with us and he was out with them, instigated by daughter just to have a visit that wasn't on the parenting time schedule but he told the kids if they want to get together outside of the schedule to let them start to have more control of their time.  So SD asked dad out (the day prior) for a coffee date after out shopping with her mom.

DH had just emailed mom  the new year parent schedule he does up over and no response which was 2 weeks ago.  (Passive aggressive, entitled, smug silent treatment as usual).  Of course a thank you from her is too much to ask.  With it a note to say that he hasn't done the next year's summer schedule and will wait until spring in case kids have jobs and that he wants to start letting them 'have more control over their time with parents' (back and forth being up to them during the summer). That he wouldn't stray too far off of the usual but that is the new plan, which was open for her to comment back.   Which I think is huge for mom to accept because of her controlling nature and also she doesn't respect the kids at all in my opinion... This would be a big concept for her to allow the kids to decide and I think she knows that the SD15 would probably not go back to her! or choose to stay with us more but the SS is quite a momma's boy under her spell (quite defensive of her and protective of her as I like to say, he's quite loyal to her)  I don't really trust my SS to be honest, he's too much 'in her camp'.  She can do no wrong, type of b.s.  or it just doesn't matter to him, I don't know.  His dad is such a generous, selfless, classy (never says a negative thing to them about her), gentle, loving dad that would and has fallen on the sword for those kids and it just irks me to no end the crap she pulls and gets away with. And I'm sure there is a ton of smear campaigning and simple brain washing since they were little.    I understand she will always be 'mom' and that they live with her (she's primary parent) so I get how controlling and threatening she must be to them (walking on eggshells) and have to show their loyalty to her but it is not easy.   I can see SS behaviour when he comes over, sort of smug like his mom and very defensive if we mention anything that appears we're judging her (we're not, we just asking basic, everyday stuff how things are going).  But you can tell there is this wall that goes up when it comes to mention their mom.  It's always been that way.


 SS decided to join them.   DH comes home and says ex did a drive by during the coffee date (they were outside on the street), went around the block and turned towards their home  -  she was watching them... .  What was kind of funny is that when this gathering/meeting/coffee date was requested I said that hopefully mumsy dearest won't tag along too or show up (in jest) Well!  I was right... .hhmmm... (I wasn't present, this is what he told me after).

Two things weird, is that both kids almost didn't acknowledge dad when he asked, 'hey, is that your mom?' and he said, why don't you text her to get a ride home if she's around?  Nope both just sort of had this blankness and said they'd take the bus!  Like no way type of attitude.     I thought that was so bizarre, DH thinks they were embarrassed that they damn well know mom wasn't supposed to be around.  She had just bought kids shoes and WAS around earlier and home is just a couple minutes away from where they were, but she would have had just to scoot home after shopping with them to leave them alone with meeting their dad.  Parents do not have any contact with each other than basic, important email once in awhile pertaining to kids.  Or if she decides she wants something.   

What do you think of this drive by and is this snooping just her being paranoid? or what?   I have no clue what she would be so curious about so is that a typical BPD behaviour, can someone else out there relate to that.    Do you think she is so threatened by the schedule idea? (giving kids control over their time with parents).

Dad had just helped SD15 set up her first bank account without mentioning it to their mom while she was here with us during a summer visit, so maybe mom was wondering what else he was up to.   Heaven forbid he should do something for them that she wouldn't even think about doing (narcissist) so everything DH does, is seen as some sort of threat or 'bad' which I'm so tired of but what can you do... .  Or if dad gets interested in something or there is this spotlight on any given thing with the kids, she jumps on the bandwagon whereas before, she could care less about them.  Only when dad is paying attention, does she jump up and want to have her hands in it.   Usually she is super neglectful of them, or if it doesn't have anything to do with her or what's in it for her, she has no interest.  Never hesitates a chance to show off though if it suits her to look like 'super mummy'.   Soo frustrating (eye roll). 

Last night SS14 sent this video of him helping his mom do some sort of chore, with a drill hanging something up.  (DH said he'd taught him to use it).  We think it's mom pushing for her image to be 'good mom' again but it came across as weird and creepy in my opinion. It was the kid looking at the camera and being really smug it wasn't cute at all, which is what you'd like to think (it appeared more like:  see how well we're doing over here type of having to prove something).    SD got her hair cut and sent dad a photo.  Again, not necessary, but probably prompted by mom of course to show she did something good for daughter.   In my opinion there is this damage control going on and it's so obvious but I'm not sure why she is so threatened other than she knows she slacks off in the 'caring and generous mother' and making an effort for her kids department and anything good their dad does or I do, gets back to her (which I'm assuming is seen as 'bad').   That's why I'm always wanting privacy what we do over here (ie activities or things we get them)  because it's none of her business (except for the daughters bank account but he let daughter tell her mom not him - limited contact is safer and preferrable)  but I guess since dad got SD her new glasses the other day (not cheap!), she goes back to mom's and that might be something else to see as 'bad' how dare you make me look neglectful or?, kind of thing.   I know how she thinks, which is scary, but that is how it is.

Any thoughts?  Sound familiar to anyone?  Do you think it's just the BPD feels like she is being graded, watched, competition thing or does she feel any guilt or shame for being caught doing a drive by when dad was with kids and she was snooping on them?  hard to tell but she is mostly shameless at the best of times (years and years of documented transgressions of breaches of multiple parental agreements -  I won't go there!)

I agree that between households there will always be this competitiveness.  There are some things she will copy like food we have, places we go to with them type of stuff (bugs me).  Once I took my SD out to get our nails done together, we were going to a wedding.  She went back to her moms and then comes back with having her polish re done and she had gone with her mom to the same salon as we went to.  I was thinking:  are you kidding me?  I don't know if mom insisted or if daughter wanted to go again, but the point is, the same salon too?  oh please.  copy copy copy.    tiresome to the point of wanting to tell the kids to please not share with mom, but how can you? she gets wind of EVERYTHING probably under a lightbulb interrogation. 

Thanks for any input.  I just wanted to  hear of similar experiences and what you think is going on with her and of course using the kids... .

cheers!
Klera



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david
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« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2018, 07:42:55 PM »

The drive by probably was from her fear of losing control. Sounds like something my ex would have done years ago. Change does not sit well with my ex unless she is the one to decide the change.

Giving the blank stare could be because they were unsure what to do. Our kids were like that before because, I believe, they were afraid of what would happen when they were with their mom.
Ex filed for divorce in 2007. We divorced in 2010 and the boys were around 4.5 and 7.5. I learned later, during a custody eval, that when they were with their mom they kept to themselves.  There was very little interaction between them and their mom. I am fairly certain that was their coping mechanism to not stir the hornets nest from the things I heard.

SS14 could be the protector for his mom since SD took a different path. He may feel obligated in his own head. His age could also be a contributing factor or just the fact that he is the youngest.
Our youngest used to take "moms side" years ago.

My ex used to compete by doing things I had done. I found it sadly amusing. I never played into it because it seemed pointless to do so. Her method was more along the lines of trying to top whatever I did. The last few years she hasn't done that and prefers me taking the boys for haircuts, buying clothes, etc because that way it doesn't cost her any money. However, last Christmas she bought four of the latest Iphones (one for her, one for each of our boys , and one for the youngest SS) and is paying the bill. I have a flip phone still and would never have done that. Good for her. The last few months she has been complaining to the boys that she never has any money. I am sure the phones aren't the only reason.
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Klera
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« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2018, 10:30:24 PM »

Thank you David,

Interesting to hear the similarities and thanks for sharing your input.   I agree, I think SS14 has become mom's self appointed protector.  I would be interested to hear other males' perspectives about this as I understand the mother-son relationship can be or become this way in divorce.  It was unexpected to see SS helping his mom with manual labour chores when I understood it was up to SD to do a fair amount of all the cooking and meals at their house for the simple fact that mom can't be bothered.  I'm familiar now with parentification  and I suspected awhile ago that my SD was starting to take on the care giver role with her mom.

Isn't it sad to think what every kid's coping mechanism is?  I completely agree that they just don't know what to do in a case of 'think fast' it's mom!  Wow!  "stop, drop and roll!"

I can relate to mom being frugal and cheap and not cracking open her wallet!  what is up with that?  in my case, mom is not struggling financially although has run into problems in the past, so I think she may have suffered some PTSD by having to sell the marital home given to her in the divorce and running into financial trouble back then but she's fine now financially but still remains a tightwad when it comes to spending the child support on the kids (drives me crazy).  It's her 'fun money' as I'm sure she looks at it that way... .
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david
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« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2018, 10:20:26 AM »

Our oldest put a ring tone on his phone when his mom calls. It starts with a loud danger noise like when movies go to d-con 5. It then says "warning, warning, you are about to get questions that have no possible good answer" or something similar.
Considering SD made her choice clear it seems natural that the other child has to pick the other side just to make things "fair". In a normal relationship that may be fine and will adjust normally. The fact that SS decided to join them could mean he is realizing what is going on and is becoming more independent. That is healthy at that age. He still has to contend with the wrath he may get later on so I am sure he will be cautious. By the time our oldest turned 17.5 he no longer feared his mom. He didn't start anything or stood up to her because I think he realized that was an effort in futility. When he graduated high school he moved in with me full time. He discussed it with me and simply told his mom what he was doing.
My only concern was for his younger brother being on his own. So far things have been okay. He basically stays away from her. I call him or he calls me. Sometimes the conversation goes in the direction of me asking him where his mom is. His reply is  A) I don't know B) she went out somewhere  C) she is in her room.
Once he called asking me what to do. His mom was not there and he went into the kitchen and there was water all over the floor. One of the shut off valves under the sink was leaking. He took some pictures and sent them to me. I explained that turning the valve may stop the leak and it did. He cleaned the water up and asked how to change the valve. I told him he should wait until his mom comes home and show her. He would have to have a new valve and shut all the water off before he could replace it. I went through the procedure. He emptied everything from under the sink and dried it up. When mom came home he showed her what happened. She yelled at him because he took everything from under the sink and put it on the counter. He explained that the plumber would have to do that anyway. She continued yelling. I picked him up the next day and he told me what happened and how she got angry. I told him he should have just said I told him to do that and she would have been angry with me. He said he didn't think of that and besides he didn't think that was right. She just pushes people away. I don't know if she sees it at some time or doesn't. It is what it is.
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david
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« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2018, 10:22:09 AM »

I also told him he did the right thing by cleaning it all up and making room.
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Klera
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« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2018, 04:29:11 PM »

Hi David,

Excerpt
There was very little interaction between them and their mom. I am fairly certain that was their coping mechanism to not stir the hornets nest from the things I heard.

Yes! this is no surprise at all!  The hornets nest is exactly what DH and I refer to the ex as! which is why he rarely has any contact (email only, if any) with her and NEVER EVER instigates it, only answers her briefly (SET) if she does.  It's like: 'careful! slowly pull out the bear spray and back up slowly'... .What I can't stand is when she wants something, then strains herself to be nice-nice to him (manipulative narcissist) or if she suddenly has a need to engage and offer some sort unnecessary 'report' about the kids in an email which usually is a pile of b.s. anyway.  She can be delusional and has zero common sense... .

Having said that, I'm convinced that my SD15 has learned to stay clear of her mom for this reason.  She often stays late at school to do her homework there and is able to walk home the short distance when she's ready.  She will often call her dad on route (never around her mom) or answer his texts or calls when she is walking home from school.  Also, over the years there has been signs of neglect with the kids (diet, mom doesn't cook that I know of plus obese as well, so that does not help, since she cannot self regulate herself the kids have taken on her habits (I can see what's happening every time they come over to our house) and hygiene issues which are slowly improving due to them becoming older and more mature.    I add this up and conclude that mom doesn't spend any time or effort with them.  The 3 of them seem to go their separate ways or the kids probably have no where else to lounge and or have space except their rooms.  They live in a small older house she began renting 3 years ago after selling the marital home (a down grade lifestyle change!) so we know there isn't much space there.  She must take up a lot of it with being a big gal.   

Excerpt
Our oldest put a ring tone on his phone when his mom calls. It starts with a loud danger noise like when movies go to d-con 5. It then says "warning, warning, you are about to get questions that have no possible good answer" or something similar.

Hilarious!  reminds me of my DH ringtone when we first started dating... .it sounded like duck and then a horn blasting I think...

Excerpt
She continued yelling. I picked him up the next day and he told me what happened and how she got angry. I told him he should have just said I told him to do that and she would have been angry with me. He said he didn't think of that and besides he didn't think that was right. She just pushes people away. I don't know if she sees it at some time or doesn't. It is what it is.

 Uggghhh how sad, sorry for your son! She sounds lovely.  But you are there for him so that's great!   My step kids don't share anything with their dad about their mom.   I'm sure she censors them, the two separate houses are black holes as far as that goes but I often think that they tell her everything that goes on over here due to sheer pressure from her.  Nothing to hide but stuff does get back to her.  They know the parents do not speak to each other so that contributes to the secrecy about what goes on around her.   Anything negative would never be 'reported' to dad for fear of her I'm positive of that.    Of course she pushes people away, BPD persons don't have a good track record for having stable relationships.   We know of one guy that moved in (she only provided first name but tried to keep him a secret from us) and lasted 2 years before he ran screaming which is longer than I though he'd last.  Since then she's kept her love life under lock and key but their dad has asked SD15 recently if there are any losers hanging around lately but the answer is 'no' so far so good in that department.    She is unable to have any sort of lasting male friends and I'm sure anything is fleeting with anyone else once they get to see the real her using everybody for her own best interests... .or when the cracks start to show in her mask. 

Anyway:  I was also going to mention this:   During the summer, my SS14 forgot a couple of things when he came over here so dad suggested he drive him over to mom's house to pick up whatever.   So off the 3 of them go.  SS goes up to the house and comes back to the car.   Dad assumed he got whatever but he didn't.  Turns out she wasn't home and he didn't have a key and didn't say anything!  (I know, weird).   So once SS did say something, they were off doing something and asked if he could go back to mom's house.  Dad unimpressed, said fine, (it wasn't too far away),  and low and behold she was there so he could get his whatever he forgot.  I found that extremely bizarre that SS would not say anything once he got back to the car the first time. 

The other thing: is often dad and kids go biking and they have also biked over to mom's to pick up what SS has forgotten, like a phone charger or something  a few months back) My SD was with them but stayed far back up the street with dad and she did not want to go into the house at all!   So that tells you a lot, doesn't it?   Very disturbing.   So yeah, she stays clear of her mom.  Perhaps mom would tear a strip off of kid for forgetting, I have no clue but it's still bizarre to me but in our case seems to be normal for them. 

Recently I told SS that when he calls dad from mom's could he please try and do so with some privacy ie go outside or to his room (and not within earshot of her because she ALWAYS interrupts him or asks who he is talking to she is extremely intrusive, which I didn't say to him).   He kind of looked at me and his sister like he saw an alien standing there.   I said, 'dad deserves that (privacy when speaking to kid)' kind of comment.  My SD got it instantly.  She happily agreed and knew exactly what I was talking about (she calls dad when walking home from school) but SS... .I can tell he's momma's boy and seemed put off that I would suggest such a thing.  Oh well... .

Just some 'stuff' that I deal with and observe  so it's really interesting to hear commonalities with others!  Thanks!   Oh, and BTW, I would not doubt that SD15 will probably vote with her feet soon and move in with us especially after graduating HS when she goes to Uni.  Dad stops paying child support so mom probably won't try and stop her although I'm concerned that the kids are extremely stuck under her controlling overbearingness at the moment and shows signs that she is not happily going to give that up anytime soon... .so we'll see how that plays out.   Dad has already suggested the possibility for Uni, but SD is quiet about it you can tell she isn't comfortable to leave mummy's lair but inside her head, I'm sure she is probably planning it.  I don't know as the kids are quite secretive but I encourage their dad to have talks which he does if there is anything really important that he needs to... .but it's really delicate.

Thanks for reading!  I like any feedback or common things that you can relate to as well. 

Cheers,
Klera     
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soundofmusicgirl
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« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2018, 09:28:17 AM »

Kiera, the phone thing sounds very familiar. My husbands 11 yr old sons (twins) do not talk to him on the phone. They will yell at him that he interrupted him during xyz (never mind that BPDmom told Dad to call at this time). BPD mom also holds the phone for them, whispers to them what they should say and has instructed them to share nothing. And when I say nothing, it really means they are not allowed to talk about play dates, extracurricular activities, school, friends, food, etc. When my husband asks a question he gets: That is none of your beeswax.

When the kids are in our home we give them privacy. I have however overheard them talking about husband and me to mom saying that "they" did this and that...
I find it interesting that they cannot even say "Dad" on the phone, because they know that any kind of relationship with Dad will be heavily punished by mom.
It is sad sad sad.
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Klera
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« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2018, 04:02:56 PM »

Hi Soundofmusicgirl,

Excerpt
They will yell at him

Excuse me?  Eleven year olds.  Wow.  More on that in a bit.

Excerpt
When my husband asks a question he gets: That is none of your beeswax.

I couldn't help myself answering here.  Far from me to offer advice on this but my opinion is:  They did not become these two rude and insufferable children over night.  Now I'm not judging here. I know all too well the negative, damaging and abusive influence/ brainwashing effect a BPD mom has over her kids but what so disturbing to me is at what point did your husband start witnessing and (?accepting) this behaviour from his kids?  Wow!   If my stepkids  even as far as thought to be disrespectful and speak to to their dad in that way, they wouldn't be allowed in our house!  I'm only assuming that they've been like this for some time not to mention this is showing the degree of their mother's influence on their behaviour towards dad and absolutely no manners or respect from the look of things here.   How did this become so bad?

The other major disturbing factor is the mother physically holding the phone, not to mention her interference (and the level of censoring she is getting away with) sons' contact with their dad.    I don't know where you are or what legal aspects are involved, but that is a number one no-no in my case.   I have heard that this sort of thing can be dealt with in court,  that the mom is not to tamper or interfere with or prevent contact with the father.    I'm so sorry to hear that the mother is this abusive, to me there is no other description for it.    What are the twins like when they are not with their mom with you?  It's great that you give them privacy, however, even at your house they appear to still be loyal to mom telling her 'info' about you guys.  That's another disturbing behaviour going on in your own house. 
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Klera
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« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2018, 04:16:35 PM »

Soundofmusicgirl,  I forgot to mention that obviously the phones and the kids' discussions are being used as a weapon against their dad (weaponizing).   Someone told me once that BPD persons 'like to set you on fire and watch you burn' which is a very crude description of the brutality of their abusive tendencies.   When it comes to kids, there is no other favourite weapon used by these disordered parents against the other parent, unfortunately.   

I hope that one day the boys will be able to speak to their dad 'normally' freely in the future.  But again, their mom is using the phone and calls and communication/info as a weapon.  It is so sad, I agree.   Sorry! I hope things improve for you guys.  Good luck.

Klera
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« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2018, 06:09:50 PM »

I have some friends, not too nearby so I don't see them that often these days.  I recall the dad relating a story about his first marriage and kids.  Seems they eventually moved in with dad, mother had kicked them out, so dad stopped paying child support.  Some time later, apparently not that soon thereafter, mother got triggered about something and filed claiming he was behind in child support.  Well, the judge was lambasting him about being a deadbeat dad and so he asked, "Does that mean the girls have to go back to their mother?"  That stopped the judge, who then confirmed it with mother.  Duh!  I don't recall whether he still had to pay ex the back child support or what, but he kept the kids.

Yes, he should have promptly filed with court to end his child support once they were living with him but he's the Live and Let Live sort and avoided court as much as he could.  (Besides, if he filed quickly and ex realized she'd officially lose CS, she may have demanded the kids back.)  Many courts don't make allowances for peaceable types.
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« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2018, 09:28:44 PM »

The boys are 11. Our oldest started breaking away from his exs' control around 10. He would talk to me about some of the things she was doing and he felt conflicted since he didn't agree with her. Our youngest took a little longer and he still is more cautious around his mom. He started around 12.
I also believe our oldest was more mature when our separation and divorce occurred since he was a little older. I remember signing him up for an after school program at his elementary school for divorced families. That really helped him. He didn't want to have anyone at school know what was happening at his house. He started going to the program and he was relieved that most of the kids in his class were from divorced families. He didn't feel so out of place after that. However, I found it quite disturbing that only 2 kids in his class, out of 24, were in a non divorced family.
I believe the biggest thing that helped me help them was I was able to listen and validate. I would make a mistake in front of them and instead of trying to defend myself/ blame someone or something/etc I would own it and handle it as a reasonable adult should. They saw that a couple of times and that was when they first started opening up to me. They were cautious at first and I could sense it. I basically parented, remained calm, and gave advice when they asked me. Slowly the trust built and that bond became stronger. Ex doesn't have that ability.
Back in the beginning ex bought our oldest a cell phone for Christmas. It was about two years after the separation. He was around 10. We went down the Jersey shore during the summer with one of the stepsons. SS had a small trailer. About an hour after we arrived S10 got a call from his mom asking how SS was and what we were doing. She was trying to be friendly. The problem is S10 realized she had a tracking app on his phone and was furious. Whenever we went somewhere after that he turned his phone off and didn't use it.
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soundofmusicgirl
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« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2018, 05:07:55 AM »


The other major disturbing factor is the mother physically holding the phone, not to mention her interference (and the level of censoring she is getting away with) sons' contact with their dad.    I don't know where you are or what legal aspects are involved, but that is a number one no-no in my case. 

Klera I can assure you that we have it firmly written in all court orders that parents are not to interfere with the contact of the children to the other parent. We have brought it up multiple times. But have been told over and over that the problem is the enforcement of such a thing. Unless you have someone in BPDparents home constantly monitoring that BPDparent sticks to the court order, there is basically nothing you can do.

The yelling at my husband started 8 months ago. Shortly after BPD lost a court battle. The yelling lasts about 30-60 seconds. Then the kids just hang up. Whenever my husband told them that their behaviour is not acceptable, they just hang up. He will get to spend some time with them in person in a few weeks and he is scared to death that they will be this rude to him in person. I do think they will be mouthy but will quickly realise that you cannot treat a human being like this in person. (at least that is my hope)
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« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2018, 07:12:04 AM »

Excerpt
He will get to spend some time with them in person in a few weeks and he is scared to death that they will be this rude to him in person. I do think they will be mouthy but will quickly realise that you cannot treat a human being like this in person. (at least that is my hope)

Hi soundofmusicgirl,

I see FOG here.  My SO's uBPDxw used similar tactics all designed to make my SO feel like a bad dad, to feel less than confident.  Both my SO's ex and your husbands ex use the children as weapons to lower their confidence.  That lower confidence empowers them. 

I would try and have dad work on his confidence, what does he anticipate happening?  Come up with a plan on how he will handle those things he's worried about.  I know you can't know what will happen but I think being prepared could help his confidence. david has described using humor to de-escalate situations he had with his son's your husband might try that... .lessen some of the tension.

I had an interesting revelation the other day about FOG.  My SO's uBPex's personal brand of BPD uses a lot of Guilt.  I realized that, Guilt is (or should be) her primary feeling around the things she has done... .besides emotional blackmail is some of this stuff projection? Am I projecting right now? Who the heck knows but it made sense to me. 

I see your husband's ex using Fear, and Fear seems to be what his ex feels most often too.

Anyway hang in there, don't let fear keep your husband from seeing his kids, the more they see of you both the better.  Has your husband ever considered Therapy for himself regarding the situation with his kids?  It could be helpful, my SO found the support, validation, and ideas from his Therapist a big help.

Panda39
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« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2018, 06:32:18 PM »

Hi Soundofmusicgirl, David, Panda39, ForeverDad... .

Thank you all for your input and sharing with me and each other!   The responses to various bits and pieces contain so much 'aha!' moments.


I want to reach out here especially to Panda39 and LivenLearned.  Over the years you've been great and I have to say I appreciate your wisdom and support to me but to others as well.    I always look forward to what you have to say!  So thanks again.

And one more thing.  I know what it is to be a 'lurker'. Just someone reading all of this stuff.  I was one of them for years but I didn't have the guts to join in.   This is a shout out to anyone reading this site who is just along for the ride, to please join, donate too!, and share your stories and get some support.  I'm always saying to DH (dear husband) to never underestimate the emotional impact dealing with a disordered parent or person with BPD has on you.  If you begin with learning and understand more (there is self help topics on this site which are brilliant), then you begin to empower yourself, gain tools to help deal with the difficulties you are facing. Good luck!
 
Below are some quotes and maybe others can relate too:  It might be a bit muddled up sequentially but... .oh well:

Excerpt
Many courts don't make allowances for peaceable types
.

Yes, this statement is beyond true.  I've learned the hard way and probably the most frustrating factor in all of this, is that family law, no matter where you are, in my opinion, does not and cannot punish enough.  By 'punish' I mean solve everything, heal our frustrations, the hurt, the damage... .yes, it's (the family branch of law) there to what it does, or can do, lawyers doing what they can within their power, judges making their judgements, whatever it may be,  but to be brutally honest: It's not like criminal punishment:  Removed from society, removed from endangering others, some sort of resolution to their behaviour, 'their' acts against 'us'.   Not in our case: people here reading this.    And not only that, like what is said above, time and time again, it's the family members  who've been put through the ringer mentally, emotionally, financially,  the 'victims' (sorry for that label!) that seem to have to fight with everything they have only to walk away feeling:  well... .that didn't do any good, did it?   No sense of fixing anything or sense of resolution.  Not in every case, of course, and not to be such a downer but I wanted to recognize this fact, that probably everyone in some capacity dealing with or have dealt with a pwBPD, within the family legal system, has thought or experienced the frustration of 'they can't do anything'... .

 
Excerpt
I would make a mistake in front of them and instead of trying to defend myself/ blame someone or something/etc I would own it and handle it as a reasonable adult should.
 
Fascinating! Yes, this makes complete sense to me.  My SD15 now and in the past literally jumps to her feet if she hears from me, "uh oh" or "oops!" (so I try not to say it often in her presence) Her response is: "WHAT? WHAT?"  in a panic.  So I put 2 and 2 together thinking her mom flips out (outbursts, uncontrollable over the top reactions to mistakes) has created this anxiety in her, not to mention the parentification (mom expects daughter to fix it and to come running to soothe her).   Poor thing.

Excerpt
They were cautious at first and I could sense it. I basically parented, remained calm, and gave advice when they asked me. Slowly the trust built and that bond became stronger. Ex doesn't have that ability

Excellent! I agree with that, recognizing what abilities she may or may not have in helping the kids when they are with us.  My DH is like this as a parent too.  I know the kids rely on dad's character and abilities as the 'normally functioning' parent  and  can only assume how invaluable this is (understatement).  I don't see the openness in them yet, dad seems to keep things pretty light with conversations.  But I anticipate more trust with SD15, as dad is starting to open up with her on some matters that need discussing to help her more and for both of them to share a bit more with each other.  Such a delicate area, isn't it?

Excerpt
realized she had a tracking app on his phone

Wow! I did not think of this.   Mom is probably been tracking them for years! especially on trips we've been on... .creepy.   This is going to change, I can tell you this.  Thanks for sharing that!  What is it about privacy?  this really urks me to no end.   This invasion... .and insecurity of hers,  I suppose it is. 

 
Excerpt
Klera I can assure you that we have it firmly written in all court orders that parents are not to interfere with the contact of the children to the other parent. We have brought it up multiple times. But have been told over and over that the problem is the enforcement of such a thing. Unless you have someone in BPDparents home constantly monitoring that BPDparent sticks to the court order, there is basically nothing you can do.

I hear ya girlfriend!  I didn't want to come across as judgement.  I'm sure you're doing all that's legally possible, we all are I hope.   This is why I had to address the frustration of family law experience.   There is nothing one can do to these people.  I can assure you as well, that in over a decade, we've documented volumes, hundreds and hundreds of intent of breaches of multiple parental agreements with virtually no punishment because of  financial reasons like "it's not worth going to court cost", or knowing it's futile to go to the lawyer and another 500 bucks for another letter that she'll burn or ignore anyway.   If it's serious enough, yeah of course but in our case it's petty, little b.s. stuff she pulls off but it's still breaches of a legal agreement.
I know what you're saying!
I've comforted myself in knowing that the kids' mom's  game-playing days are coming to an end.  The kids are getting older (teens and beyond), more aware and their bond with us and their dad is unbreakable.  Their relationship with their mother in the future as adults will be their business.  But there will come a day when we (my husband and I) will have nothing more to do with the kids' mother once the shared custody/visitation obligations legalities are over with.   We'll see. It's my hope anyway!

Excerpt
I see FOG here.  My SO's uBPDxw used similar tactics all designed to make my SO feel like a bad dad, to feel less than confident.  Both my SO's ex and your husbands ex use the children as weapons to lower their confidence.  That lower confidence empowers them. 

Well said!  wow.  This is such a good reminder/lesson! F.O.G.  Thank you Panda39! This term has been a life saver for me to understand what's happening!  They  (pwBPD) are showing when they are feeling guilty, when they are fearful, the weaponing that they do to try and jeopardize YOUR confidence.  Confidence.  I know for a fact that the kids' mom has zero confidence.  She is always (has been caught) having the kids make the adult decisions... When she was caught out... .(WHAMMO) defensive!  Nope, not her, deny, deny, deny. 
 But this really makes sense to me and helps me tremendously when I'm seeing her behaviour I can recognize what it is and what's happening.  This also explains the drive by spying, while the kids were with their dad.  Paranoid and delusional as well.  Sad but true.   But it almost helps to diffuse the anger, in knowing that their behaviour is happening when they are feeling vulnerable, fearful, guilty... .it doesn't help it but understanding it does, for me, anyway. 

Let's all have chins up, keep calm and carry on!  Confidence.  Powerful word. 

Thanks for reading!

cheers,
Klera
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« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2018, 09:06:49 PM »

Klera,

Just want to say I'm so glad you're not a Lurker anymore.    It's always a pleasure when you pop in, I know the reasons for being here aren't always great... .the Panda says with a shrug, but in spite of the things going on in our lives, there truly are some great friendships to be made here. 

The more voices we have, the more perspectives we get, the more knowledge we share, then the more our situations can improve.  I appreciate your participation and I know those Lurkers with similar stories out there do too. 

Okay so if you're reading this and haven't posted yet, Klera and I ask you to be bold and take the plunge, tell us your story, what do you need help with, what's that situation that you keep going through over and over again, is there something you don't know... .what's your burning question? 

We're all in it together and we would love to hear from you shy lurkers out there, this really is a safe place to talk it out.

Klera you rock!

Panda39
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« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2018, 11:36:01 PM »

Back at 'cha Panda! thanks!

I USED to be a lurker, many years ago but I've been posting for quite awhile now.   The most recent thing up my nose has been discussed in great detail on here so things are somewhat okay-ish at the moment.

I won't hesitate to shout out if needed, which I do.  I really appreciate the info that is shared here, not only common experiences but the explanations to help substantiate the behaviours (BPD and other), views and opinions.  I think we know the answers within ourselves but I guess it's that, "what do YOU think?"  Sometimes I feel like what I've posted isn't such a big deal (issue at hand), like 'how petty a problem' compared to what others are going through.   I'm so appalled at what I read, the stories and the struggling, the issues out there! I feel awful for some parents and the kids.       I don't want to take up others' drama but I do like to throw in my two bits if I think it might help.  Sometimes I'm afraid at saying the 'wrong' thing, like it coming across as judging or whatever, but I'm pretty quick to apologize or to clarify my intent which is not to hurt any feelings. Is that FOG too... .maybe?   We hate confrontation and conflict so that would make sense! 

One thing that really helped recently was that the issue confidence came up.   I've learned that behaviour by the borderline is triggered obviously by stress on their part but that FOG (fear obligation guilt) is what they themselves are going through as well as using it as a form of control?  I think that's right? or please correct me if I'm wrong.    I forget that they (pwBPD) are feeling fear, guilt etc themselves as well as low confidence (parenting).  Not that that's any excuse for their attacks,  but disordered thinking is so foreign to your own.  I'm always trying remind myself of that.  My brain is so preoccupied by being angry at any given thing that is done or issue at hand,  that I can't slow down to think straight or I need an explanation so that I can diffuse it somehow, which is why I'm here.    Don't know if that makes any sense.

Anyway... .thanks for all your help and I'm grateful for the friendships here! 

Take care for now Panda39.  How are you doing these days, btw?
cheers,
Klera     
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« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2018, 01:52:06 AM »

Kiera thank you for summarising it so well!

Sometimes it is beyond frustrating to see that we "won" in court, but in truth there is no one watching what happens at home with a BPD parent and  no one seems to understand and care.

Panda... .you hit the nail on the head with using the children as weapons to lower confidence. Unfortunately for my husband (who struggles with low confidence anyway) it is working completely. Case in point: he got an email from the kids school this week saying that there will be a meeting on day xyz about one of his sons and wether he will get an IEP or what needs to be done in school. The school "informed" him that this will meeting will take  place with BPDmom, school psychologist and teachers and that they will inform him AFTER the meeting what decisions have been made.
I told him he should write back to say that he wants to be part of the meeting and decision making process. But he is having none of that and just saying that no one cares that he is the father and that he anyway has nothing to add since his kids have not talked to him the last 8 months.
It makes me very sad. And it is incredibly hard for me to just sit and watch.
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« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2018, 04:17:18 AM »

Hi Soundofmusicgirl,

We all probably have felt or have gone through identical things, we are just here to share at any given time.  In fact we should start colour coding like, "I'm going through a code orange right now, any suggestions?"     If I didn't have humour I don't think I could keep sane half of the time.     I was going to quote someone about using humour to lighten things up with kids... .can't find it at the moment.  Anyway, I'm always laughing at myself for silly things and I'll share funny stories with my stepkids, this seems to lighten things up quite a bit and they don't seem quite as guarded as they can be sometimes.             


Excerpt
it is incredibly hard for me to just sit and watch.

I wanted to answer you because I've been there and sometimes still am.  It IS extremely trying, draining, frustrating, hard, you name it! of course!   Us stepparents have a very tricky position, in that emotionally we can be all in, supportive to our spouses and the kids and whatnot, but sometimes I feel I have to back off a bit, almost guard myself and not get too pushy or bossy because I don't have any authority over the kids and I'm not an equal (legal) parent.    I sit back and watch mom and dad hash things out while I'm sitting in the background gritting my teeth wishing I could jump in with the discussions and put mumsy dearest in her place  (but she'd enjoy that... .so... .nevermind).    I have to let my husband deal with her and at the end of the night, it's his kids.   Even though I'm in this family as an equal spouse with him, when it comes to the kids, they aren't mine.  Yes, I care for them, look out for them, do stuff for and with them... all of it, like they are my own, always have, but sometimes there is this invisible line that says, 'you have to stand down right now' sometimes and let the two parents hash it out on their own.  I'm there for him and he knows it and appreciates it, but yes, it is damn hard for us to just sit and watch sometimes if not all of the time.   

 
Excerpt
Case in point: he got an email from the kids school this week saying that there will be a meeting on day xyz about one of his sons and wether he will get an IEP or what needs to be done in school. The school "informed" him that this will meeting will take  place with BPDmom, school psychologist and teachers and that they will inform him AFTER the meeting what decisions have been made.
I told him he should write back to say that he wants to be part of the meeting and decision making process. But he is having none of that and just saying that no one cares that he is the father and that he anyway has nothing to add since his kids have not talked to him the last 8 months.

I don't know where to start here but I'll give it my best.  I've been here too.  I agree that it sounds to me it might benefit your husband a great deal if he considers consulting with a therapist but it has to be someone who is fully familiar with and has experience with BPD so that they may offer the best and qualified to do so.  It sounds like he is really struggling, as you say, with his low confidence.  Also have you ever thought to seek out someone for yourself?  I'm concerned that the degree of stress of dealing with pwBPD within the family can sometimes be quite overwhelming to say the least as we all know.  It can put a real strain on the relationship sometimes and I've learned here and been reminded how important it is to look after yourself, whatever that may mean to you.  Just a suggestion.  I remember something about 'it's not the action, it's the reaction' kind of thing.  I learned there are ways that I could be handling things better (within myself) or ways that I was or was not contributing to conflict and all sorts of other interesting stuff that I wasn't aware of or benefitted from help and the light shown on some things.  It's not as easy as it sounds though! I can tell you that!  and not trying to offer any miracle answers either, I don't have 'em.

I wanted to point out that I do wish the boys' dad know how important he is as the father.  It's imperative in my opinion that it starts there.  I'm so sorry to hear his confidence is low but this is something that can be strengthened and helped, am I right?  I have experience with school business.  No 1.  remember that the BPD mother will most certainly be trying to conduct the entire orchestra, from teachers, to principles, counsellors the whole wad of  them! so be proactive and hopefully dad can put his foot in the door there!  At least in our case this is what was happening.   As the father he must exert his authority to the school his legal right that he is an equal parent.  I don't care where he is or how many months it's been since he's been apart from them.   I know first hand the discrimination against fathers in the schools because the mom is seen as numero uno boss and that dad is somewhere next to the garbage cans at home on the outdoor mat but that the moms are the ones that they contact first, communicate with the most if not all the time etc.  It's pure discrimination to exclude the fathers intentionally.    But honestly it is up to him to stand up and have direct communication with the boys' school, that he is to be contacted as well as mom and EQUALLY INFORMED and included, that mom is not the boss and that they don't demand anything.  Sounds like they need to be put in their place. Your husband is the parent and he gets to decide if he is at this meeting with or without mom.  He can request separate meetings.   He does not have to be in the same room if he doesn't want to.  My husband went through exactly the same thing, although the school was a bit more respectful about the process but the discrimination was still there, let me tell you.  But the BPD mom was (we found out later) was bossing and there 'putting pressure' on everyone involved.   

I know this is hard to watch.  I really really hope that he understands how important he is and his self confidence shines through one day.    He probably doesn't feel it, but he has parental rights first and foremost.  And it is hard to stand up to these people but he will have to decide for himself what he is going to do.   It's sad to hear that his 11 yr old boys are they way they are and he will definitely need your help to teach them how to treat their dad with respect.   Once they are away from their mom, they probably will need some de-programming from the sounds of it! wow.  But also know that the weaponizing is her wanting control and using them to lower his confidence even more.  How cruel.  This is something that I think perhaps a therapist will help you with but again, the ball's in his court I'm afraid.  He has to get it rolling, right?

One more thing:  I might start a new topic about loyalty and seeing the kids as traitors if they betray pwBPD, in our cases the kids' mothers.  This has hit the nail on the head for me lately with my step kids' behaviour.  So to think that kids are brainwashed into doing and saying what they do in order to please mumsy dearest or to be loyal and not seen as a traitor or face her wrath is also a huge part of all of this.   

Must go,
I hope some of this helps?  Hang in there!

cheers,
Klera
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« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2018, 07:37:23 AM »

I agree Humor is key! Along with stability, consistency, level-headedness and radical acceptance.

I agree the role of the step-parent is more tricky than being the parent.  I see my role as an adult role model, and adult friend to the girls, and consultant to my SO when it comes to his ex's behaviors.  Although interactions with the ex are minimal, D22 is no contact with her mom and D17 is low contact, things do still pop up.  I still can find myself getting triggered... .the good news is I'm able to recognize when that happens now.  I don't automatically go from 0 to 60 on the anger scale anymore.

Lately things have been good mixed with some "same old... .same old". 

My SO and I still live apart because his 17 year old is still in High School and where I work is about 20 miles from where I live in the opposite direction of where my SO and his daughter's live.  We are hoping to move in together next Summer once his daughter graduates.

But this summer we had a blended Family Vacation with all the kids... .and no one killed anyone!     We've had a heck of a journey getting to this point and this trip was very satisfying in terms of our progress as a family and super fun.  So things are good in terms of my SO, myself and our kids.  We really have created a strange long distance family of sorts.

UBPDmom on the other hand is up to her usual stuff.  She promised D17 her dream photo shoot for her Senior Pictures... .to the tune of a few hundred dollars. Now as far as we know mom doesn't have a job... .she's still living in a hotel we think at her family's expense (Sadly, I don't think any of them want to deal with her either).  Dad offered to take pictures but no, D17 took the bait and agreed to do it mom's way (I sure miss the eye-rolling emoji!).  Dad knowing what he knows about his ex asked the photographer if every thing was taken care of he said yes, so proceeded to take D17 to get her pictures taken.  Then once there he found out everything hadn't been taken care of, the photographer hadn't been paid (I know what a shock... .the Panda says with a lot of sarcasm!).  So now the photos have been taken but not paid for... .and here we sit again with some BPD junk dropped in our lap.

I suggested that D17 pay for her own pictures if mom doesn't (D17 has a job, and she made the deal with her mom, if she wants her pictures I think she should pay for them herself) that to me is the consequences of making a deal with an untrustworthy person.  Dad want's to pitch in some to help her out.

Apparently D17 talked about this situation with her Therapist yesterday.  The Therapist suggested she confront her mom so dad took her to the hotel last night where this apparently happened.  I wouldn't usually suggest a confrontation but this is actually good for D17, who is a people-pleaser, has difficulty asking for what she needs, and avoids confrontation like the plague particularly when it comes to her mom.  But other than pushing D17 out of her comfort zone, I don't anticipate any change in her mom.  It's literally been 8 years of wash, rinse, repeat in terms of mom's behaviors. 

The Therapist also suggested that D17 not pay for the pictures, that she let dad take her photos (so we are back to square one), and let mom deal with the photographer (face her consequences).  The thing is like everything else there really are no consequences when she doesn't pay (unless someone brings charges and takes her to court)... .she still lives in the hotel on someone else's dime and has no responsibilities.  So it remains to be seen how the picture saga unfolds.  I'm hoping that D17 like her older sister now understands that she should have no financial interactions with her mother.

That's things on the Panda front.

Soundofmusicgirl,

I'm feeling your pain and agree with everything Klera has said below.  Unless your husband takes the bull by the horns, and changes his approach nothing will change.  The only person he can change is himself, and by doing so create ripple effects with his son's and ex.  The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.  If he continues to give into his ex's demands or avoid things nothing will change.  He seems to be stuck in victim mode when it comes to this situation and this has to be so frustrating and painful for you to watch.  But you too can only control you and what you do, you can't make your husband do something he doesn't feel ready to do.  I agree Therapy might be a good idea... .someone outside of the situation... .a professional that might help your hubby get un-stuck.

Hang in there ladies we'll all get through this! 

Panda39
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« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2018, 09:47:40 AM »

He got an email from the kids school this week saying that there will be a meeting on day xyz about one of his sons and wether he will get an IEP or what needs to be done in school. The school "informed" him that this will meeting will take  place with BPDmom, school psychologist and teachers and that they will inform him AFTER the meeting what decisions have been made.
I told him he should write back to say that he wants to be part of the meeting and decision making process. But he is having none of that and just saying that no one cares that he is the father and that he anyway has nothing to add since his kids have not talked to him the last 8 months.
It makes me very sad. And it is incredibly hard for me to just sit and watch.

How to get past his defeated "won't make a difference" feelings?  I've sometimes used this analogy, don't know how much it will help:

If you ask/state, you might get a positive response and improvement.
If you don't ask/state, then you won't get any improvement.
Your choice, ponder well, which is better?
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« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2018, 07:30:22 AM »

How to get past his defeated "won't make a difference" feelings?  I've sometimes used this analogy, don't know how much it will help:

If you ask/state, you might get a positive response and improvement.
If you don't ask/state, then you won't get any improvement.
Your choice, ponder well, which is better?

Thanks ForeverDad. I think that is a good analogy. I will relay it to my husband. He did end up writing to the school and asked to be invited. The special Ed teacher wrote back saying in nice words: no can do.
Husband decided not to fight it. Yes, they have joint custody but I assume that BPDmom has shared her "concerns" with the special Ed teacher and she is buying into her Koolaid.
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« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2018, 10:41:28 AM »

He did end up writing to the school and asked to be invited. The special Ed teacher wrote back saying in nice words: no can do.
Husband decided not to fight it. Yes, they have joint custody but I assume that BPDmom has shared her "concerns" with the special Ed teacher and she is buying into her Koolaid.

Hmm, I wonder if the school's lawyer is contacted whether he might be included in some way.  Even if she officially has "Decision Making" I wouldn't think he could be excluded.  The problem is that if he hasn't shown up to school at all, he should have been attending school parent-teacher conferences, beginning of school year meet and greets, and other similar events all along so they would know he's not the monstrous, disinterested or deadbeat dad he's surely claimed to be.

Our member David related how he had a hand written court order (he wrote, judge signed and clerk timestamped it into the record) and the school didn't accept it until he told them to call their lawyer about it.  He then got their cooperation.
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« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2018, 08:44:32 AM »

My ex convinced the school I was a monster. I went to all parent school functions. I felt the bad vibes from staff etc. However, since I was viewed as hostile and potentially violent, I was left alone. Ex filed the second or third protection order against me saying she was in fear of me. Wednesday is known as protection order day in our county. If you say you are afraid you will get a protection order for one year. They are easy to get. If you get a three year order then there probably is an issue of some sort. Anyway, ex kept telling the judge she was afraid whenever I came to pick our boys up at her place. I had a problem because we ex would not let the boys bring their school bags with them when I picked them up during the school year. I am a school teacher and ex knows how important education is to me so naturally you should make it as difficult as you can  I proposed that I pick the boys up[ at school. That way I was miles away from ex during half the exchanges. Judge loved the idea and asked ex if she agreed. She was smart enough to realize she was put in a corner and agreed. I told my attorney I needed the order now or this would be a problem later on. The attorney hand wrote the order on legal pad and gave it to the judge. Judge looked it over and handed it to ex. It was signed by all parties. The next day I went to pick the boys up at school since it was my custodial day. The school told me I was not allowed to pick them up without exs' expressed written consent. I handed them a copy of the handwritten order and they told me it must be typed out. I told them that would not be a problem as long as they gave me the 75 dollars to change it to a typed paper. I suggested they fax the handwritten order to their legal dept. Around 15 minutes later I was walking out the door with our boys. I stayed calm the entire time and always spoke respectfully. That seemed to be the turning point for the schools perception of me.
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david
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« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2018, 09:03:16 AM »

That was when our youngest was in kindergarten. By the time he was in third grade there were several teachers  and a few staff members that changed their opinion of me. One teacher helped changed the rest of the staffs perception of me. By fourth grade I convinced the principal that, in the best interest of our son, I would have a separate meeting with the teachers and/or staff. Once a decision was made they would set up a meeting with mom and not mention anything about me already being there. Every recommendation the school made at her meetings were agreed to and then I had to show up at a later time to sign off if they needed both parents signatures. If they only needed one I didn't have to show up again.
When our youngest started middle school I began to have problems with communications with the school. A few weeks in I drove to the school to straighten it out. The person at the main office got on a computer and I could see, from her face, that there was an issue. I simply  told her to call the principal from the elementary school and it would be straightened out. I left and received a call about 20 minutes later saying everything was straightened out.
Schools are required to involve both parents unless a judge says otherwise.
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soundofmusicgirl
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« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2018, 01:05:51 PM »

So today my husband spoke to his sons and was told by them that: remember Dad when you shook my brother last summer? That is why we do not want to visit you.
My husband is planning to visit his sons in 2 weeks and BPDmom is doing everything she can to make him afraid and make him not come.

The shaking of course never happened (kids are 11 yrs old). If it had happened BPDmom should have mentioned that in court that we were having a few months after last years summer visit. So obviously this is not something that can be reported, but is meant to scare the crap out of my husband and make him not visit.

It is working.
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Panda39
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« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2018, 04:50:00 PM »

Gaslighting the kids... .parental alienation... .

soundofmusicgirl,

Has your husband read about parental alienation?

Panda39
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"Have you ever looked fear in the face and just said, I just don't care" -Pink
david
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« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2018, 06:39:53 PM »

Years back (2008) ex dropped the boys off at my place. They both walked into the house (ages 8 and 4.5) took a few steps and said, "We hate you and want to live with mom. We never want to see you again." I did not think trying to talk to ex about it would have helped. They also, especially the youngest, would say I was always mean and punishing them or that I was abusive. This went on for months and I had no answer or response I thought worked.
 
One day, I was sitting in a chair and our youngest came up to me and said I was an evil monster. I stood up and stuck my arms out like Frankenstein and chased him around the house. He loved it and from that point on he wanted the evil daddy monster to chase him.

A few months later I stopped at a Wawa to get a cup of coffee. The boys stayed in the car. I noticed they were playing video games and not looking around. I bought an Icee for them. I walked towards the car and they were not looking up. I opened the door, stuck the Icee into the car, and said in a very stern voice, " You boys better drink this Icee and enjoy it or I will punish you so much you will know what punishment is." It startled both of them but in a few seconds they smiled. From that point on they asked to be punished when we were driving somewhere and they saw a Wawa. Those two incidents really changed the tone from them and things got much better. IT seemed to defuse all the bs ex was giving them. I don't think they challenged her about any of the things she was saying but they changed how they perceived it. I was also consistent with them when they were with me and I think that helped too.
 
They are 19 and 15 now. This last mothers day they were at their moms. She had a story that I am the #2 distributor of marijuana in the city of Phila and I also grow it in a park in the city. Both boys laughed at her and sher got upset. She then turned around and told them that she was talking to my mom and that is what she told her. My mother passed away around two years ago and had dementia for many years prior. I do not believe  ex has spoken to her since around 2007.
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soundofmusicgirl
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« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2018, 08:01:08 AM »

Panda... yes we know about alienation and have all the books (Divorce Poison and the book from Dr. Childress about attachment based parental alienation).

In fact I have started a support group in our area for family members of BPD and we have great "success". I am advocating in our area to get support for families and to find resources. Since we live overseas there is no worry about BPDmom finding out what we are doing

It is very very clear that BPDmom is giving her ALL to brainwash these kids. The day before the "shaking" accusation they told my husband that we force feed them and that is why they do not like to visit (we have heard this before from them). The problem is that unless they see a T that understands what is going on and helps them, nothing will change. And they are seeing a T that is supporting the alienation and is heavily on BPDmoms side about men being evil villains.

I suggested to my husband that he might reach out to the school and other mandatory reporters to alert them of what is going on. We do have some allies in the school system (a special ed teacher from the kids previous school, a therapist from the school district that has worked with one of the sons for the past 2 years in the school setting). I even suggested he reach out to the religious leader of their congregation (my husband had previously contact with him about something relating to the boys church upbringing and the leader said he sees what is going on.)

Husband has reached out to our L this morning to get advice from her wether he should just tell the kids: if you make tell these lies I cannot come and visit you anymore and I will not allow for you to visit me in order to protect me.

@David... i remember you telling that story before. I think that is a great way to deescalate. But in order to do that you need to have confidence in your role as a father. My husband does not have that. He knows he does not abuse the children, but he just does not have the confidence to stand up for himself and turn something awful into something "funny". And BPDmom knows that and uses that completely.
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worriedStepmom
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« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2018, 08:24:50 AM »

If your H in therapy?  It sounds as if he may need it.
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david
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« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2018, 09:14:56 PM »

I didn't have that ability when we were together. I preferred avoiding conflict. Towards the end I started to question things as many of ex's behaviors became more bizarre. That led to conflict. I remained calm for the most part during the conflicts.
After we split up ex was doing all kinds of things. Once I was in the basement of the house and my phone was upstairs. I heard it ring but I was in the middle of something. About 10 minutes later I went upstairs and listened to the voicemail. Ex had our boys and she left a message saying she would drop them off around 9:30 pm. She was supposed to drop them off around 7 pm. I called back and she answered after the first ring. She started to talk and I cut her off. In a stern voice I said, "Young lady you better have those boys home by 7 or you will be in big trouble. " It was like talking to a little kid. She hung up right away. It was around 6:50 at the time. Both boys walked into the house at 6:58. I felt horrible for talking to her that way. I didn't even talk to our kids that way. I was seeing a T at the time and I talked about it there. I was told that since it worked I probably did the right thing and that I am learning how to communicate with ex. I still didn't like talking to her that way and I never did it again. The T did help me see things in a different light and it was helpful. It took me 3 or 4 before I found one that I clicked with.
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