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VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?" Parental alienation is when a parent allows a child to participate or hear them degrade the other parent. This is not uncommon in divorces and the children often adjust. In severe cases, however, it can be devastating to the child. This video provides a helpful overview.
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Author Topic: What options do I have and what is best for a non legal separation  (Read 661 times)
Woodchuck
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« on: September 05, 2018, 07:39:36 PM »

I am moving towards a non legal separation as that is the only option here.  I have visited a lawyer a couple of times but the only thing they can tell me is that they can draft a separation agreement that will cost about $1.5k.  She has no requirement to sign it at all and would most likely not even read it so why waste the money?  In the mean time, I am not sure what is advisable or legal as far as separate living quarters in the same house.  I am living mostly in the basement.  Nothing belongs to her that is stored in the basement.  Is it legal or advisable to lock the door to the basement and/or the door to bedroom in the basement?  I have found her going through my personal things (medical records etc) several times and do not trust her to respect anything.  Also, as far as expenses, vehicle, cell phone etc, what is advisable or legal?  Can I give her notice to obtain her own cellphone service and then cancel after the identified time or is that something that is going to look bad during the divorce proceedings.  Same with the car.  Can I sign over the title for her car to her so she is responsible for it and remove the car from my insurance?  I know I cannot remove her from my insurance but I can remove the car.  Just to be clear, these are options that I am looking at not out of spite but due to my upcoming retirement and most likely different financial status as well as the fact that she is working 30+ hours a week and not contributing to any expenses aside from an occasional trip to the grocery store.  She has stated over and over again that she wants a divorce but will do nothing about it and I am tired of spinning my wheels. 

WC
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LJS0617

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« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2018, 07:44:49 PM »

Im sorry I’m new here and it may say somewhere. What State do u live?  I think it all differs state to state laws and such. I could be wrong but u can file and Best to do so first, then once notified you can separate reasonable things so taking no more than half and it gets sorted out later in court. Just bc u file doesn’t mean u have to go through with it, but it gives u more rights or at least in KS it does when I checked. I’m no expert but that is what I have found. Good luck.
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Woodchuck
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« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2018, 08:52:33 PM »

Im sorry I’m new here and it may say somewhere. What State do u live?  I think it all differs state to state laws and such. I could be wrong but u can file and Best to do so first, then once notified you can separate reasonable things so taking no more than half and it gets sorted out later in court. Just bc u file doesn’t mean u have to go through with it, but it gives u more rights or at least in KS it does when I checked. I’m no expert but that is what I have found. Good luck.

I live in a state where you cannot just file.  You have to have a 12 month separation before filing for divorce.  It is not a legal separation but you have to show the court that you have lived apart for 12 months when minor children are involved.  After that 12 month period, you can file for divorce.  The only thing that I can do now is have a separation agreement that would become part of the divorce decree but she refuses to even look into that. 

WC
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LJS0617

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« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2018, 09:09:11 PM »

Gotcha. I didn’t know there was such a thing and prob a good thing when kids involved. Good luck.
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ForeverDad
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« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2018, 10:11:43 PM »

My lawyer told me that legal separation was seldom used, it didn't fix many of the issues with a failed marriage.  One exception he told me about was of one couple who chose LS so the wife, apparently with some chronic illness, could continue on his health plan.  (In the USA a final divorce decree allows the insurance company to terminate coverage unless the ex wants to continue under COBRA.)

Can you force her to take sole ownership of her vehicle?  The title may require her signature too?  What about your vehicles, are they only in your name?  Anything joint can become problems... .titles, deeds, loans, mortgages, bank accounts, credit accounts, phone accounts, memberships, etc.

Probably you can change your beneficiaries more easily now, might be frozen during a divorce case.  If you have children you could switch anything from her to the children.  Ask a family law attorney (confidentially) about your questions and options.
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flourdust
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« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2018, 09:27:07 AM »

Can you tell us what your endgame is? If you want to get divorced, then you need 12 months separation in your state. I assume that means living in different buildings, so moving to the basement won't qualify. If you're trying to have an in-home separation as a strategy to repair your marriage, I don't see anything in the steps you are taking that will ramp down the conflict. What are you trying to achieve, ultimately?

We can't give legal advice here. My general understanding is that as a married and cohabitation couple, you both have complete property rights. So, sure, you can put a lock on your door. It's your door. But your wife can break that door down if she wants. It's her door. The same is true for all of your marital property - you're both entitled to use it, destroy it, whatever you like.

For the ultimate cautionary tale on in-home separation, I recommend you rent War of the Roses (1989, Michael Douglas & Kathleen Turner).
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« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2018, 07:03:30 AM »

While you are considering your options, I think a locked door might instigate drama. One possible solution for the moment is to purchase a locked filing cabinet for very personal items and things you want to keep safe. She might not like it, but it may be less dramatic to her than a locked door.

She did express fears about a possible affair. I could see her snooping through your things looking for signs of that, but a locked door would be complete secrecy. So she snoops through your clothes- so what? You've got nothing to hide there. Medical records would be more personal- lock those up.
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worriedStepmom
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« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2018, 09:45:39 AM »

I think you really need your lawyer's advice on what constitutes proof of 12 months' separation.
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ForeverDad
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« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2018, 09:58:05 AM »

I think you really need your lawyer's advice on what constitutes proof of 12 months' separation.

I would assume 'separation' means no intimacy or cohabitation.  And how do you "prove" you weren't intimate?  Or would she have to be the one to "prove" it?  But of course I could be wrong which is why we're peer support and not lawyers.  Beware that toward the end of your required celibacy that she turns on the charm briefly to surprise and sabotage you so that your plans get delayed again and you have to wait for another 12 months.
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livednlearned
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« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2018, 11:27:11 AM »

flourdust asks a good question.

Do you want to file for divorce, but also want to wait until you go through the family law court process to determine who stays in the home and what happens to the kids?

I live in a state where you have to be legally separated for 12 months.

You can't live under the same roof during that time where I live.

I had to move out. It put me at risk of not keeping the house, but there was an element of escalating danger in our situation (substance abuse).

In my state, if you do that, and you have kids, essentially you get the temp custody order (which becomes permanent) going, and start to separate things financially, including the house.

Because that process was high-conflict, it took a while to get things sorted out. In the meantime, I had to live off my own savings. That period can be pretty dicy if you don't have access to your own cash flow. Then we were able to sort out the main things. It was enforcing those things that made my divorce so high conflict.

Meanwhile, you will get your divorce decree in the mail and it's almost an afterthought because what really matters is the rest of the stuff: custody, finances, who lives where.

Are you in a state where you cannot even file for temporary custody or separate yourself financially unless you are legally separated for a year?

Or is this more about not wanting to cede the house to her?

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« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2018, 12:51:58 PM »

So the state that I live in has very abnormal laws.  You can live separate under the same roof.  At the end of the 12 month separation, both parties as well as a third party will have to testify that there has been no intimacy etc and that it is clear that the two parties have lived apart in the same house.  Living apart includes not eating meals together, going shopping etc.  I would move out but I would have to sell the house and find a house where I could set up or store all of my equipment.  My shop currently takes up about 1k sq ft. 
As far as an endgame, as of now it is divorce.  I/we have tried to repair things for many many years and it just does not work with the mentality that she has.  She continues to state that I am THE problem and that I need to change my heart but will not expound on what that means.  As far as ramping down the conflict, I am doing what I can but nothing seems to really work.  I have stopped engaging or being sucked into her rages.  I am far from perfect at it but I am aware of what needs to be done and am making progress. 
One day she will state that she wants a divorce and the next day that she doesn't want a divorce and will not entertain a separation agreement. 

WC
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worriedStepmom
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« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2018, 02:35:45 PM »

That's bad news that the separation requires her to also swear that you were separated under the same roof for a year.  I would not count on her cooperation at the end of the 12 months.

Even the family trip that the two of you took recently can be cited as proof of no separation.

You need to find a way to leave the house.
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« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2018, 03:56:20 PM »

This may help the discussion... .

Excerpt
Excerpt
A date of legal separation can be established via different means.

Perhaps the most definitive method of establishing a date of separation in state is to file a divorce complaint. The law presumes that the date of separation is the date on which the divorce complaint is filed unless a party can establish an alternate date.

An alternative way to establish a date of separation is through one party’s behavior, such as moving out of the marital residence or possibly even just moving into another bedroom and making it generally known that the two parties are now separated.

It is also important to separate the joint finances. This means that joint bank accounts should be closed and the parties should also stop accumulating joint or marital debts.

In order to establish a date of separation, a party’s conduct should clearly indicate an intention to separate from their spouse emotionally and financially.

Remember, prior to filing a divorce complaint, it is possible to “undo” the date of separation through your actions, for example, by resuming marital relations. This type of behavior and any other attempts that can be interpreted as reconciliation, however temporary, can create a new, later date of separation.
State Divorce Waiting Period

The date of separation is especially important under state law in non-consent based divorces, as there is a two-year time period that must pass before one party can obtain a unilateral “no-fault” divorce without the consent of the other spouse.

Because of its importance to the division of property, the state date of separation is often a major issue in divorce. If couples cannot stipulate to a date, then a court will have to decide.

Under state law the date of separation is described as the “cessation of cohabitation, whether living in the same residence or not.” This is a somewhat vague definition, which leads to an intensive fact-based analysis when the court needs to decide this issue.

As indicated above, the easiest way to establish a date of separation is to unambiguously inform the other spouse of your intent and then take clear actions to establish a date of separation, such as retaining a state divorce attorney and separating the finances.
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« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2018, 03:59:05 PM »

As far as an endgame, as of now it is divorce. 

You could just file the divorce and get it on the record.
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ForeverDad
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« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2018, 05:08:39 PM »

If she can't afford the house post-marriage, then the only options, if it is jointly owned, are (1) for you to get the house (and pay her half the equity in the property) or (2) for it to be sold (and you each get half the equity in the property).  That's what it boils down to.  She will try to get you to support the house, pay all the bills, pay spousal support or alimony and pay child support.  That's unreasonable.  These days alimony serves as a short term transitional bridge for the disadvantaged spouse from married life to post-married life.

The biggest issue is who has the kids.  If you leave, can you take the kids with you?  If she leaves, can she take the kids with her?  Unfortunately, mothers often get default preference when it comes to being Primary Parent, how good a parent often isn't addressed, at least at first.  In my county the magistrate asked one question, What are your work schedules?  What he failed to ask was, Who has possession of the home?  I had possession of our house issued by municipal court's DV temp protection order, in my favor.  However, despite that she got temp custody and temp majority time.  Fair?  Of course not.  But I survived it, it was a tough learning experience.
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AnuDay
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« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2018, 10:51:11 AM »

This lock thing sounds bad.  Is she going to try to increase the drama?  It could turn into a back and forth tit for tat.  I told you before your goal is to keep things calm for 12 months.  Typically what happens down the line is that police are called due to a domestic dispute and one of you has to leave your own house.  This will be used against you in court.  Can you move your sensitive items into a storage unit? a friends?  can you start spending the night at other places?  I found sleeping at other places very relaxing during my volatile time.
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Woodchuck
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« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2018, 06:36:51 AM »

Here is a link to all the requirements for divorce/separation where I live.  It is quite different from most other locations.

https://www.livesaymyers.com/separation/

AnuDay-
I could move my personal stuff to a different location.  I did purchase a safe and have put most of what I am concerned about in there (med records, birth cert, SSN card, military records etc).  I could start spending the night at other places but that gets complicated with the kids.  It is relaxing in a sense but at the same time it also creates a different type of anxiety.

ForeverDad-
The lawyer that I have talked to as well as others have said that it would not be a good idea for me to leave the house as that sets up a possibility of being accused of abandonment.  The house is in my name.  She was never added to the loan or any other documentation.  She had the option to do so when we bought the house but chose not to. 

Skip-
If I could just file for divorce, I would be doing that, however, unfortunately, that is not how things work here.

WC
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« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2018, 06:57:53 AM »

If I could just file for divorce, I would be doing that, however, unfortunately, that is not how things work here.

This law office lists it as the most definitive method for establishing a date.

Perhaps the most definitive method of establishing a date of separation in Pennsylvania is to file a divorce complaint. The law presumes that the date of separation is the date on which the divorce complaint is filed unless a party can establish an alternate date.
Cordell & Cordell has offices and family law attorneys located in Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, and Radnor should you seek additional information or possible legal representation.
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Woodchuck
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« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2018, 08:01:59 AM »

This law office lists it as the most definitive method for establishing a date.

Perhaps the most definitive method of establishing a date of separation in Pennsylvania is to file a divorce complaint. The law presumes that the date of separation is the date on which the divorce complaint is filed unless a party can establish an alternate date.
Cordell & Cordell has offices and family law attorneys located in Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, and Radnor should you seek additional information or possible legal representation.


That is for Pennsylvania, not Virginia.
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« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2018, 08:15:31 AM »

That is for Pennsylvania, not Virginia.

Got it.

So, this is what you are operating under, correct?

Excerpt
Adnan was pushing back (unsuccessfully) against judges’ legal interpretations of the Code of Virginia. Separation has some basic requirements:

    No sexual intercourse (apparently Marja and Adnan had let that part of their marriage end some time before 2000)
    Neither party doing anything for the other (She bought groceries for herself and her son; she cleaned because she lived there, too; she cooked because she and her son had to eat)
    Stop attending family events (Marja stopped going to church with Adnan and stopped attending family functions)
    Keeping financial accounts separate (Marja stopped depositing money into their joint account)

How to Remain “Separate” While Living Under the Same Roof

In Bchara V. Bchara Marja may have been winging it, and admittedly she stumbled a bit here and there, but she did most things right. If you absolutely must live under the same roof with the woman you want to divorce, set up some parameters:

    Remove your wedding ring
    Have absolutely nothing to do with your wife sexually, romantically or affectionately
    Use a separate entrance to your home
    Shop for, cook and eat your own food
    Use nothing — nothing — of hers (no toiletries, laundry soap, toilet paper, computer, car, cable television, postage stamps — nothing!)
    Make known (to family, friends, neighbors) your intention to be separate, and repeat it frequently
    Invite third parties over regularly to verify that the two of you are separate though living under the same roof, including using separate bedrooms and, if possible, kitchen and bath space
    Separate your finances
    Do nothing socially, religiously or domestically together (except for holidays and your children’s special events)
    Give absolutely nothing to her (this sounds really cold but offer no gift, money, service such as changing the car oil, greeting card, gift certificate or use of a joint charge card throughout the separation)

If you establish a pattern, backed up by independent witnesses, that you consider yourself separate from your wife, you can establish to the court’s satisfaction that you intend to divorce her.
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« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2018, 11:57:31 PM »

From what I read on that link it looks like your other options are to:
1. Try to get her to sign a separation agreement
2. File a complaint. 

Sorry, I don't remember all of your particulars, do you have enough evidence against her to justify an immediate divorce? (eg. infidelity)
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« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2018, 05:37:16 AM »

Skip-
That is correct.  Those are the guidelines that I need to follow. 
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