PART 2 My one best line re: breaking news I'm in counseling. Need advice

[BetterLanes]

Moderation Note:  this is a continuation of this thread:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=327019.0;all
Hi Formflier and all,

Thanks for asking! I'm hoping to give you all a proper update soon, I am currently processing/waiting to see what happens in the next few days. The following is a factual summary.

After the "Are you happy?" conversation I set up an appointment with a local male Catholic counsellor (actually a deacon in our parish although not in our actual church). The lady from the diocesan office e-mailed saying she had thought further about who might be able to help me and suggested him. The appointment was this Wednesday just gone. In my head this was the conversation I wanted to have for final validation I guess.

While I was waiting for that we went on holiday (reasonable apart from a couple of days, including a special Med holiday version of the walkout, a swimout!), arranged and went to lunch for my mother's milestone birthday, and hosted a BBQ for friends. The last of those was this Saturday just gone.

I also within the last couple of weeks devoured Lundy Bancroft's books "Why does he do that?" and "Should I stay or should I go" as mentioned by AskingWhy, thanks so much for mentioning those! I loved how "Should I stay" was obviously designed to be worked through over a period of several months and I tore through it in a few days. I have promised to do it better later.

I saw the counsellor Wednesday and he basically told me that my H was abusive and there was no obligation to continue with the marriage. I wanted to hear this from (a) a male and (b) a Catholic. Between then and the Saturday BBQ I finished the Bancroft books.

Saturday night when the friends had gone home and my D had gone to bed, I did another "grown up conversation" with my H. I had been thinking about the P!nk song "Glitter in the Air" and I'd decided that would be a great way to make sure I went ahead with the conversation. So while he was up in the shower I put some of my D's glitter in my hand and threw it up in the air in the middle of the living room so it scattered on the carpet. That way I figured if I lost my nerve about starting the conversation he would see the glitter and ask me why it was there and that would start the conversation.

When he came down I said we needed to have another grownup conversation, and just told him right away that I'd seen a therapist (as I'd suggested during the "Are you happy?" conversation) and that the therapist had said that his behaviors towards me were abusive. He mostly stayed calm like the other time and so did I. I can write in more detail about this later but I mentioned BPD and he mentioned autism which he suspects he may have, and I explained per Bancroft that mental disorders were kind of separate issues from abusive behaviors. Things got a bit more negative from me later on in the conversation and he (as reported afterwards) started to feel harangued. That was after he started talking (in the context of my raising financial control issues) about pensions and "our money to retire on together" which has always pushed my buttons. There were a number of issues that I didn't raise and information that I didn't give because he was pretty beat up emotionally already and has low emotional resilience. He was freaked out by the idea of the relationship ending although I didn't suggest this explicitly. He said I should start telling him when I felt like that, and he would work up to getting therapy.

After about three hours it was getting late. We headed to bed and I thought about it and said I'd like to have some space and sleep downstairs. That freaked him very much and he was upstairs for a couple of hours making occasional distressed noises and threw up once. Then he came down and said something like "Is that it then?" and a few other such remarks, and I said I'd go up to the bedroom so that we could both sleep (meaning me as he is insomniac under way less stress). Sunday he did best behavior and we had a few more bits of conversation, including about sex and intimacy which I hadn't covered, and I quoted him the bit in Bancroft about men experiencing intimacy as a minimization and forgiveness of their behaviors and he accepted that.

So in practical terms as outcomes of this weekend I am currently not (1) having my finances monitored, (2) having to conceal therapy/research, (3) driving, (4) having sex with him. There is a lot more to raise and discuss and do and decide yet but this was the proper conversation which I am glad of having had. Put it this way, it's much too early in the process to know which board to switch over to  And I feel like I couldn't leave you all yet anyway. Conflicted about leaving the Conflicted board  

I promise I'll post more before very long.

BetterLanes x

PS H and I (because I'd wondered about Aspergers for me) took the same respectable-looking online autism test Sunday where a score of 33 and up indicates likely for autism. He scored 40 (four zero) and I scored 14 (four teen).

PPS The glitter thing worked really well for me. But the funny part is that he actually didn't notice the glitter on the carpet at all until he got up after about an hour to get a vodka. So my learning point there is that you need to use a proper decent fistful of glitter like it says in the song. I did mean to but I hadn't realised there was a shaker top on the tube to prevent the kid tipping out all the glitter at once (the glitter people have learned that since my day) and it was taking a while to shake it out and I was worried I wouldn't be done before he was out of the shower. I think my T who I told all this to yesterday thought it was a bit crazy, but that was kind of the idea.

[formflier]

Can you tell me more about the apparent decision to stop having sex?   What direction do you expect the relationship to go in by changing this element?

FF

[BetterLanes]

Hi FF,

Yes. I know that is somewhat of a hot-button topic on this board. Basically I read it in a book. (Always my answer!)

Leslie Vernick's book The Emotionally Destructive Marriage, which I read just prior to the "Are you happy?" conversation, recommended for the proper "ultimatum" conversation that one possible follow-up option was to "withdraw sexual privileges" until change is evident. She said that emotionally abusive men regard sex as evidence of low impact of their behaviors on the woman and an indicator that the behaviors are not really a problem.

Bancroft's book said the same thing and I'll quote:
"[Common reasons for men wanting sex after mistreating a woman are:]
- He is seeking a quick fix for his abusive behavior. He feels that if you have sex together, it proves that his verbal degradation or his violence is not that serious, that you aren't hurt by what he did, and that everything is forgiven and forgotten.
- He wants to reassure himself that his abuse isn't going to cause you to pull away from him emotionally or sexually. In fact, pursuing sex after abuse can be an expression of the man's entitlement, as if to say, 'Even if I'm mean to you, I should still get to have sexual access.'"
This was the bit I read out to my H and he agreed with the points that Bancroft made there.

Bancroft also talks about the topic of sexual coercion, which is a phrase I never heard before. My H has always expected sexual activity on a regular schedule regardless of my level of interest in said activity at that time. Bancroft explains how we tend to think of forced sex as involving physical force, but there can instead be non-physical coercive behaviors taking place, such as being irritable or angry or expressing demand or entitlement to the woman if she suggests sex is not wanted at that time, insulting the woman, pestering the woman with sexual requests when she is trying to sleep, or making the woman feel guilty about not meeting the man's need for affection or physical relief using sex. I have never felt that I have a choice as to whether or not to provide sexual services to my H on request. I told him this last without using the phrase "sexual coercion" and he said he had not been aware of that, in his mind I had always had a choice. But I didn't feel I did, resulting in for example having sex with him right after he finished talking angrily to me about my failure to come upstairs sufficiently promptly when he was waiting to have sex and how this reflected badly on my priorities and character (that was happening pretty often). For a woman sex and the enjoyment thereof is typically as much or more to do with the contents of your head than the physical mechanisms (I read that in another book of course). It is psychologically hard to go ahead and have sex with someone who at that point in time you don't like or respect much at all, don't feel safe or comfortable with, and are carrying a lot of resentment against. Since this whole research process started it was getting harder each time I read another book or found out some other information and that attacked one of the mental motivations I had been using. After Wednesday's T appointment I staged my first ever fake headache (a classic but deservedly so) and went to bed early on my own to carry on reading Bancroft.

So that's what was feeding into that. Where it goes from here or what I expect that to achieve in terms of the relationship, I couldn't say right now. For me in the short term it is primarily another item on the list of stress-inducing items that have now been removed following the conversation.

Hope that clarifies!

BetterLanes x

[formflier]

So... .did you explain to your husband how he gets access to sex?

Was he able to reflect that back to you in the same way you explained it to him?

Note:  Not asking if he liked it... asking if he "understood" it.

Clarity:  I don't disagree with the book (I like Vernick... listened to her some the other day) but there is much more to this than just no sex.

FF

[BetterLanes]

I read out that bit from Bancroft about the relationship of intimacy to abusive behaviors, to which he responded that he understood the points that were being made (or words to that effect). I also said that I didn't feel like I had a choice about having sex or not, but that was it for that aspect. He said he had thought I had a choice. I didn't go into any detail about the motivations, feelings, dynamics, etc. etc. at this time. I felt like he had understood all that I did tell him. I am having to do this in stages.

Please can you clarify what you mean by "there is much more to this than just no sex"? I know there are wider implications, which ones do you have in mind?

BetterLanes x

[Cat Familiar]

I highly endorse Bancroft's and Vernick's ideas. It perfectly describes the conundrum about sex in my first marriage. It feels incredibly demeaning for a woman to be shamed into, guilted into or any other way coerced into having sex with a man who has been abusive. For me, it really wore down my self esteem and built up my resentment. Certainly not a healthy approach to something that should be joyful.

[formflier]

When he wants to snuggle and be close to you he should?

When he wants to have sex with you he should?

When you want to snuggle and be close to him you will?

When you want to have sex you will?

How did you explain the above things to him?

FF

[stolencrumbs]

I highly endorse Bancroft's and Vernick's ideas. It perfectly describes the conundrum about sex in my first marriage. It feels incredibly demeaning for a woman to be shamed into, guilted into or any other way coerced into having sex with a man who has been abusive. For me, it really wore down my self esteem and built up my resentment. Certainly not a healthy approach to something that should be joyful.

I would say from personal experience that this, though apparently in a minority of cases, applies to men in abusive relationships with women, too. Are these books geared towards women, or might they have useful ideas for a man in an abusive relationship?

[Cat Familiar]

Hi stolencrumbs,
I’m sorry you suffered with an abusive relationship and abuse definitely is not restricted by gender.    Perhaps you might start a thread about what happened in your life. I think sometimes men get less focus in this area because of gender discrimination but I’ve certainly known of abusive women. Men are really at a disadvantage because they’re assumed to be the perpetrators not the victims of abuse, and that really puts them in a vulnerable position.

Cat

[stolencrumbs]

Hi stolencrumbs,
I’m sorry you suffered with an abusive relationship and abuse definitely is not restricted by gender.    Perhaps you might start a thread about what happened in your life. I think sometimes men get less focus in this area because of gender discrimination but I’ve certainly known of abusive women. Men are really at a disadvantage because they’re assumed to be the perpetrators not the victims of abuse, and that really puts them in a vulnerable position.

Cat

Thanks Cat. I've tended to post on the "bettering" forum, but there's a pretty big part of me that's conflicted or tolerating. I'll contemplate composing a new thread. I guess the part that struck me in particular was about sex and sexual coercion. This board seems pretty familiar with abusive women, but when it comes to sex in such relationships, I seem to nod along with what many of the women say. The authors mentioned here seem to focus on how men tend to perceive sex, and obviously there tend to be differences, but in my own relationship, the gender norms seem to be largely switched. Anyway, I'll think more about it and how to put my thoughts into some kind of coherent format. 

[BetterLanes]

Thanks CatFamiliar! And   for you.

Stolencrumbs, there are two books I'd recommend to you to read to give you some more information in this area. Both of them were helpful to me in clarifying my thoughts. Both are directed to women yes, but have a lot to inform men.

Come as You Are: The Surprising New Science That Will Transform Your Sex Life
Emily Nagoski
This includes a lot of science-based information on how men and women perceive sex, and you will learn a lot I promise. She suggests men read the book too. She says that although men tend to respond in certain ways and women in certain ways, there are percentages in each gender who have responses and attitudes more like the other gender, and it's all good.

Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men
Lundy Bancroft
This includes a lot of experience and research on the attitudes of abusers. Again you will find it useful as a man. He talks about abusers in same-sex partnerships. If your female partner is abusive you should be able to recognise the patterns of behavior and attitudes (control, entitlement, and disrespect) that he describes for the male abusers here.

I would be really interested to see a thread on this issue from a man's perspective. I would tend to assume that sexual coercion is not really possible from a female to a male because biology, but thinking about it, you could quite easily see the situation where a man is manipulated into sex and feels used afterwards, even if he was physically able to go ahead. Emily Nagoski breaks down the different aspects involved in sexual responsiveness (enjoying, expecting, eagerness) and the complexity of our physiological responses (especially nonconcordance, where genital response does not match your perceived arousal). I am sure you will find some coherent ways to explain what has been going on for you after reading these books.

BetterLanes x

[BetterLanes]

When he wants to snuggle and be close to you he should?

When he wants to have sex with you he should?

When you want to snuggle and be close to him you will?

When you want to have sex you will?

How did you explain the above things to him?

FF

Hi Formflier,

I didn't. Not yet. Saturday night he was throwing up when I wasn't physically present in the bed to touch, and he came and got me for that purpose even though I'd just hurt him immensely. His emotional resilience and ability to self-soothe are very, very low for an adult.

The "no sex right now" conversation actually took place the following day. He interpreted this to mean "no hugs" but when he queried that the next morning I said I'd meant "no intimacy". Since then he has been building up the physical contact including some touching of secondary sexual areas. I suspect he is going to raise the question tonight and I am planning to tell him to read the Emily Nagoski book as a next step. If pressed I will explain to him the concept of sexual coercion as outlined above, and also the "freeze" trauma response from "fight, flight, or freeze". Do you know about that one? Nagoski explains it. It's the last resort one that applies in a trauma situation when your brain identifies that it is not possible to fight the threat and it is also not possible to escape the situation. You switch off the frontal/reasoning parts of the brain and freeze up physically. Have you ever touched someone and they kind of stiffen up? There it is.

You and your W seem to have a reasonably normal sexual relationship, although she did say you do need to get on and fix the doorhandle before next time. I have not done any (well, not much) complaining on here about the nature and quality of the sexual relationship in my marriage, because this is not a sex therapy board, and more importantly complaining about that would not have gotten me closer to any of my immediate term goals. Also any sympathetic or indignant or supportive comments would have been another thing to have had to put out of my head. I am sure there are some of my own issues (body image etc.) involved too. In the "Are you happy?" conversation my H said he would be willing to work through a relationship book if it was focused on sex, but I looked at a selection and realised that aspect of the relationship was currently too deeply broken to be fixed by any of the methods and strategies mentioned in them (even Nagoski).

So this is an upcoming conversation to have, probably soon, which could well be a game-changer, again. I am guessing he just assumes he has to do his equivalent of fixing the doorhandle, some good deed or set of preparatory actions or demonstration of change or whatever that will then get rewarded with having sex again, like the questions you were asking - what does he have to do to get it? I think the actual answer is that I would need to get to the point where I no longer actually found the experience traumatic and detrimental to my mental health and to the relationship, and was at least some way into finding the experience a positive one. For now, honestly, the safest plan all round is just not to go there for the time being. Right now I feel like that could be rather a long time.

BetterLanes x

[formflier]

I think YOU need to initiate the conversation ASAP to let him know that you want sexual closeness with him WITHOUT the abusive stuff.

Abusive stuff... .no touch.

Polite and respectful... .(please don't expect him to be "romantic" yet... although praise him if he does)... .he gets physical access to you.

Basically... .use what he wants to reinforce "good behavior".  Right now it looks to me that he is being punished... .has no idea when he "gets out of time out" and he is likely bewildered by all this, since from his point of view it's been working fine for his entire marriage (my guess).

Clarity:  If you really feel bad or otherwise can't have sex at that moment.  I would encourage you to state that succinctly, that it's not about him and that you are looking forward to coming together when you can.  Then drop it.

If her persists... .then you need to go into boundary and teaching mode.  That this... right in this moment, is EXACTLY why you feel you can't say no.  And you won't be tolerating this ANYMORE. 

OK... since there is a religious angle to this... .It is first important to address sin by getting someone to "put off" bad behavior.  It's equally important to "put on" the correct behavior.  You seem to have only addressed half of this.

I don't think you should "apologize" for not clarifying this earlier, because I don't want your hubby to "hear" the wrong thing.  The big message here is "no more abusive stuff".

Secondary message  "should you want to be close to me... .xyz"

Third message "I'll respect whichever decision you make"  (so... .if isn't "nice" to you or whatever... don't remind or nag him)

Thoughts?

FF

[formflier]

Betterlanes

I'm not Catholic, so I don't know how Catholicism approaches using the Bible to counsel and give advice.

I'm deeply concerned about the counselor that you talked to issuing a "judgment" as he did.  That you are not required to keep going in marriage.

Also realizing there may be more to what he said.


Proverbs 18:17 New International Version (NIV)
17 In a lawsuit the first to speak seems right,
    until someone comes forward and cross-examines.
 

I simply can't imagine that any "religious leader" of stature would say such a thing after only hearing one side of it.

Now... .I'm not suggesting he isn't right or that you are being untruthful.  Your hubby has been horrible to you.  It remains to be seen if he will walk a new path or not.

Much remains to be seen.

Also not saying to go back or to not go back.  I tend to say keep going to learn and understand the counselors point of view.  You may end up rejecting it... or accepting.

My point is... for now... .realize that seems to be odd advice (at least to me) for a counselor to say.

FF

[BetterLanes]

Thanks FF,

Right now it looks to me that he is being punished... .has no idea when he "gets out of time out" and he is likely bewildered by all this, since from his point of view it's been working fine for his entire marriage (my guess).

Yes, that's pretty much exactly how I'd interpret his reactions.

I really very much need some space physically and sexually right now. I want to have sex with my H again when I actually want to have sex with my H. I cannot envision that being the case for a while. I don't want to do it as a reward for a period of good behavior as that's just another non-sex-related justification like the others I used before.

Regarding the counsellor, I appreciate what you're saying. That one sentence was a summary of a two-hour session. We both had a lot more to say! What I needed to achieve by talking to that counsellor was to get to the point where I was confident that I could have a meaningful and direct conversation with my H about the relationship, and whichever way that conversation went, whether he (or I) stayed, left, escalated massively,  I hadn't sinned by having that conversation. I was skewing my conversation with the counsellor towards getting that question answered, and that is what he provided by way of an answer.

This actually is a further conversation I need to have with my H, to explain that in order to get to the point where I could say anything at all, I had to get to the point where I felt that a breakup of the marriage was morally justifiable and the Church would agree, because I thought that a marriage breakup was a moderately likely outcome of saying anything at all. That doesn't mean that we have to decide to break up the marriage, nor does it mean that if we did decide to go down that route, there wouldn't be a bunch of further detailed investigation and discussion to have about that. But the point was that I needed to go into that conversation with a reasonable level of certainty and that is how it turned out.

BetterLanes x

[formflier]

I understand that's what you "want".

Do you think that is wise for your relationship?

If that is ok for you, especially let's say your husband "does the right thing" and is nice to you, is it OK for him to reciprocate and take things off the table that matter to him, regardless of your actions and words.

Said/presented another way.  How is what you are doing different than "silent treatment"?

I get it, we are on the conflicted board.  My understanding is you don't know where you want to go with your relationship... .completely understandable.

Taking sex off the table, regardless of what your husband does is likely to push the relationship more towards the end, vice reconciliation.

Again... clarity:  The sex anytime under any circumstance regardless of words used is equally bad... .in my opinion.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

BetterLanes,
Thanks for the hugs.       This truly is a difficult subject.

I can see FF's point that your husband might feel that the removal of access to your body is punishment.

Wow. I had to sit with that sentence for a while. How these natural processes of sharing love with our partner get messed up is mind boggling, but it certainly happens and then finding our way back to normalcy--how exactly does that happen?

To go back to "access to your body" (this makes me incredibly uncomfortable thinking that there is an inherent guarantee of ownership or user-ship)--this seems like a relic of patriarchy from time immemorial. The idea that women are autonomous and should be the deciding factor as to who is allowed to share our beds and our bodies seems like a more modern concept of the last couple of centuries, certainly not a "right" that our female ancestors felt was their own without repercussion.

Somehow in the marriage contract, we have given permission or maybe a "license" for this access. And sometimes the "license holders" don't feel an obligation to behave kindly and respectfully, yet they still believe in their hearts that they deserve to be granted access whenever the urge arises.

I believe that women often suppress their feelings when the "time isn't right" and go along with the request. This creates a pattern of resentment if done too frequently and then the whole act seems fraught and mechanical and something to endure, rather than enjoy.

Over time, the initial wonder and magic of connecting in this way with the person with whom we fell in love--is gone.

So, recovering from this state certainly takes looking at it from all perspectives and having empathy for both parties. I think that understanding how things unraveled can rebuild trust and love and is a necessary part of healing.

Cat

[formflier]

There certainly are lots of different ways to look at it... .but I would think the most appropriate way is look at what is actually happening in your r/s

Your husband is throwing up.

He is asking "Is this it?"

And the answer he is getting is... .crickets.  If I'm getting this wrong... .please update my understanding.

We all have boundaries... .nobody has unlimited access.  Even in FF marriage... with a "hyper-sexual" wife... and my bad back... .I sometimes say no and I try my best to communicate my desire (even if I don't feel it at the time) to reconnect later.

I have also gone along with sex when I didn't want to and felt horrible... absolutely used.  I've also gone along with sex when I didn't want to and felt somewhat closer or better about the relationship afterwards.

You guys get a sense of me, I spend much more time in "my head" than "in my heart".  I've tried to think about how to figure out how I can tell ahead of time if I will feel better after sex or worse... .and I haven't been able to figure it out.  

So I only turn down sex when I have a really... really good reason.  I kinda figure that if I'm going to make an error... .I'll try and do the best I can.

There really isn't another comparable that I'm aware of (assuming a "closed" marriage... monogamous).

Let's say the hubby in this situation says fine... .my wallet stays closed until BetterLanes does xy&z... .and furthermore... it will stay closed "until I feel like opening it"

BetterLanes can go to the bank... or a friend and get money and her wedding vows are likely intact (assuming standard wedding vows)

flip it and look at hubby.

He wants to have sex.  He is told no.  He goes and finds someone else to "lend him some".  (his wedding vows are broken).

I'll end with this.

I get it BetterLanes wants a break.  I encourage her to take one  Communicate that to the hubby with some sort of timeframe in mind.

He does need to learn patience... .that is without a doubt.

FF

[formflier]

Somehow in the marriage contract, we have given permission or maybe a "license" for this access. And sometimes the "license holders" don't feel an obligation to behave kindly and respectfully, yet they still believe in their hearts that they deserve to be granted access whenever the urge arises.
 

The bold is where to focus... not on the "access" part.

I 100% support "zero access" for disrespect, abuse and/or other bad behavior.

If the issue is behavior... .keep the focus... action and everything there.

FF

[BetterLanes]

Thanks Formflier and CatFamiliar!

Mods, thanks for the new thread, could we change the title to "Mostly about sex" please? 

He didn't "raise the issue" last night by the way, I thought about asking him to read Nagoski anyway, but then that would be me raising it and I didn't want to do that!

FF, I agree it is in some respects a physical version of ST. Sex is more than talking though. It's more like if every time you had a conversation with your W you had to vulnerably tell her some of your most private thoughts, feelings and secrets. If you were feeling like you didn't trust her and that wasn't safe to do, what are your options? You can either go ahead and do it and feel hurt afterwards and she's probably offended because you didn't really sound enthusiastic about it and that means you don't really love her, or you can drink enough alcohol so you feel uninhibited and positive and unmindful of consequences and it feels good or okay at the time, or you can make up some pretend stuff to tell her with pretend enthusiasm and hope she accepts that and you can keep the real stuff safe, or you can not do it at all. All of those options are problematic in some ways. What's the good answer in this situation? That you and she get to a place where you feel that you can trust her and it is safe to share the real stuff with her (recovery and rebuilding, as CatFamiliar says). Unfortunately the issue with that answer is that it's hard work and you can't put a timeframe or even a guarantee of success on it.

CatFamiliar, yes female sexual autonomy is definitely a modern concept! Sexual access is explicitly in some versions of the marriage vows - "with my body I thee honor" - and in the Bible - "do not deprive each other except for a time to devote yourselves to prayer, then come together again so that you may not be tempted" (like FF mentions). It is current teaching in serious Christian churches of all denominations. I was quite surprised when Vernick as a Christian writing to Christian women suggested it. But I think it would be true to say that men of honor who treat their wives respectfully have always in all times and places either been in their wife's (/wives') bed(s) AND welcome there, or on the couch (/spare room, roof, cowshed, other local cultural equivalent alternative sleeping place). Those are the right choices and those are the ones that the guys who post on this board post about.

FF, regarding the crickets answer, I get that, but in my head we actually haven't finished the conversation yet. My H has been asking for guarantees and timeframes just like you say. Honestly it's still up in the air. I need to see evidence of more movement besides the efforts to reduce hostile behaviors. So far he has talked to a friend at work about therapists and she told him (1) make sure you know what you are going to the therapist for, (2) decide whether you want to see a male or female therapist, (3) think about going to counselling together. This led him to ask me "Do you have any more secrets? I don't want to keep going to a therapist with new things every week." All I did in response to that was tell him about the other two therapists I'd seen (I'd only mentioned the latest one). There is still a quite big pile of stuff that I can't trust him with yet. Here are some other things he's said since our Saturday night conversation:
"After all your s**t you've put on me, don't you think you ought to at least give me a cuddle?" [that was Sunday morning and I called him out on that specifically, when he explained it was about the later part of the conversation where he felt more attacked]
"I need to know that we're going to come out at the end of this still together." [in a conversation about seeing a therapist]
"You don't have to be such a bitch about this!" [in response to my sarcasm]
"You don't have to have a go at me every day just because you think you can now!" [Tuesday, when I asked him to keep his voice down coming up to bed because D was asleep]
So there certainly is more talking to be done, but statements like this encourage me to keep it quite gradual.

Regarding reciprocation unfortunately my H doesn't really have anything equal to reciprocate with in terms of withdrawing wanted services. I've worked for a long time on structuring my life (and my D's) and my wants to try as far as possible to eliminate dependencies on my H (so as not to create demands on him >> anger, or have wanted/planned things held hostage to his feelings in the moment). So the things I now want from him are mostly the cessation of negative behaviors and demands/requirements that he makes towards me. Him doing the driving is probably the closest thing in terms of impact, but again I had gotten things set up so using our car wasn't truly essential for anything that was needed for my life and my D's (except for travel to church), and the issue was that he had started demanding that I drive to places including church and discretionary family activities (so he was making a lot of moves and stating intentions towards withdrawing that service anyway).

Thanks both again, this is a very helpful discussion!

BetterLanes x

[formflier]

BetterLanes

You have the strategy right... absolutely 100%!  (big picture stuff)

Many times people  can have wonderful strategy, yet loose the war because of bad tactics.

The flip side is true.  It's possible for a military to "win" every battle, yet loose the war.  In other words have great tactics, but sucky strategy.

Back to the good news, your strategy is spot on.  Many times strategy is more about WHAT YOU ARE NOT GOING TO DO... .than it is about what you are going to do.

You have a crystal clear "vision" and intimate understanding of what you are saying "no" to in your marriage. Please use that clarity to your advantage.  Continue saying no.

Tactics:  You did a great job in a conversation up until the point you "left it hanging".  Tie it up with an expectation about time for the next conversation.  Be clear about no guarantees  It's not that you promise to have sex come hell or high water in one week.  (that's not how life works)

It's... ."I"m making a change in the way I "do" the marriage.  The old way doesn't work for me anymore.  I invite you to come along with me in this new way of doing my marriage.  I believe the new way is much more honoring to God than our old way.  I know this part of our marriage is important to you, it's important to me to.  I'm going to take the next week to think this through more clearly and pray, let's talk about this next (insert date)."

This is especially important with pwBPD who have abandonment issues... .set expectations.

I don't have a good feel for the "conversations" in your marriage.  If the "peek" you gave us is accurate about the way he says stuff... .ugg... .double ugg.  None of that ... .zip zero nada should ever result in "good" stuff from you.

Instead of taking all of that stuff line by line... .go back to strategy.  Combine "honestly" "succinct" and "empathy".

Let's take the example of having sex when you don't want to.  This is actually what I do now (with slight variations)

My wife approaches me for sex and I don't want to (yet feel I can try... there are times it just isn't going to happen)

"Babe... .I'm not up for it right now, but I'm willing to give it my best shot."  (   yep... went there)

There's an authentic quality there and it hands things back to her and helps set expectations. 

I would challenge you to go back to the other statements and apply those three things... and see what you come up with.

Let's work on the tactics... .your strategy is solid.

FF

[BetterLanes]

Thanks Formflier! I need to quit posting for the day soon but I will think about that!

I liked the part about a new way to do the marriage, that's definitely true. It's worth noting that having had to go to the place where I was all prepared to quit with it if that was how Saturday turned out, I'm not ready to give out guarantees to him about that. He appears to want these before starting on the process. I have to explain this to him yet, which I would do by outlining my research/investigation process (omitting you all of course!).

About the conversations, the examples were given to explain why I'm not currently in the place of trust/willing to be vulnerable that would be needed for complete openness and honesty. They are fairly representative of statements my H would typically make when in a state of anger or blaming stressors on me. He can do "reasonable adult" conversation about factual stuff without emotional content - which actually included the start of Saturday's conversation when I was more or less calmly giving out interesting new facts and theories. (The later part where he said afterwards he had felt attacked was after I began to feel upset and angry.) If he's expressing affection/attachment there's another mode of conversation which is very childlike.

Thank you for the nice things that you said about my strategy! The part I feel is lacking for me is an overall goal... .  like I said before I haven't been focusing on that so much as on whether I could start the process at all. It's like if Napoleon marched into Spain with his army thinking "I'm not really sure if I want to keep hold of this place long term or not, I'm going to conquer a few major towns and cities and see how it pans out really." But I guess he could have just made up his mind during that process as he saw how awkward or accommodating the inhabitants were going to be and whether he got a good feeling about Spain when he was exploring a bit better. I guess that approach would have worked out too!

BetterLanes x

[formflier]

OK... .I'm going to try to make a "business" analogy to illustrate to you that not having an overall goal or specific objectives is OK, if you are very very clear about what you are NOT going to do. And you are doing to do that in the face of "lots" or "a majority of people" not agreeing... laughing at you... .or worse.

Who is Theo Albrecht... and why was he so rich and his company so successful.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_Albrecht

Wiki doesn't do justice to "how" he did success.

I would argue that he focused first on what he was NOT going to do... .not have any part of... and the thin slice of business that he had left... .he would do his very best at.

He did that apologetically... .kept redirecting his company "inside" the small area that existed... after he got done saying no.

He was deliberate about doing things differently... .and people that didn't shop there in a huff because "they don't do... .(fill in the blank)... ."  He didn't chase them... .I doubt he lost any sleep whatsoever.

Take a small slice of this... .bagging, carrying and returning carts.

They just don't.  A quick thought of that strategy says it should likely chase lots of people off.  And it does  Yet some people remain.  And when you take that same discipline and apply it to all areas of the business... .you get something that works in a very small segment.

Works well enough to become 31st richest.

The analogy to your marriage.  You have an intimate knowledge of what doesn't work... .what kind of "customer experience" ... .simply doesn't work for you.

In your case, there is still some trial and error finding out what does work.  You are going to have to pick something and do it for a while and be disciplined to do it when you want to and when you don't, so that you get "results" that you can trust. 

Better Lanes you strike me somewhat as a version of me... .a person that spends a lot of time in their head and can be uncomfortable (I certainly am) with some of the "heart" stuff.

Use this to your advantage.

Let's say your husband "wants his quarter back"... but he doesn't want to push the cart back and put it where it goes to "get his quarter" back. 

Respect his decision.  Don't fix it.  He either will or won't return as a customer.  My guess is that he will eventually return, but that's up to him... not you.  Respect his decision either way... .don't chase customers.

You have a product you are proud of... .you provide a pathway to get to that product... .he can walk that path or not.

He can feel how he wants to feel about that.  You aren't in the business of fixing his feelings anymore... no profit there... only losses.

Discipline is key.

First time I've tried this analogy... .thoughts?

For those of your that are interested... .it's a fascinating company.  A great study of saying no to get to yes.


FF

 

[BetterLanes]

Thanks again FF! Just reading before I lay off for the weekend. I do spend more time in my head, I trust that more than my heart I guess.

That's a good analogy, I didn't know that was the backstory for Aldi! We have that supermarket chain here and I've shopped there a few times. Maybe I should be Aldi wife. I have been trying to be Waitrose wife with a bewildering range of artisan wholefood products to cater for every middle-class need and free coffee and newspapers. I could be Aldi wife where you know that the basics are excellent but the other stuff you find around the shop is a bit quirky and random (though sometimes also excellent) and sometimes you think "Why would anyone want that?" and sometimes you think "That's a good idea, I never knew I wanted that till I saw it". Also you go into Aldi knowing they won't stock every darn thing that you have on your shopping list and they won't help you find all the products you ever wanted there. You can only really be happy shopping there if you treat it more like an adventure of discovery and exploration to see what fun stuff you come out with, rather than getting aggravated about all the stuff you had on your shopping list that you expected from a supermarket but couldn't get. That sounds like a good model

BetterLanes x

[formflier]

To finish the analogy... .Aldi got the strategy right.  Then they focused ruthlessly on making sure the tactics matched.  With an eye towards keeping costs low.

So... .for you, let's just broadly say you have been "catering to" a high maintenance crowd.  They want to be greeted at the door, coffee waiting, they want to grump that there is no cream for coffee and the store staff jumps through their a$$ to get exactly the right cream, then the customer complained that things were laid out the store wrong... and the colors were off and sizes were off... .(you get the picture).

If your "new store" your hubby comes rolling in and says "damn it woman... .get me a cart... ." 

In BetterLanes world... .you have no idea that he said that, because you don't organize or care for the parking lot. You just don't.  If your hubby doesn't have a quarter... .again... you have no idea. 

Now... .if he chooses to put in a quarter and get the cart... .he can come inside and shop... and you'll rock his world with what you have to offer. 

If he wants something else... .he can work that out himself.

How many times have you been in Aldi and seen employees listening to unhappy customers.  Compare the"return counter" at Aldi to say the returns counter at Wal Mart.

FF

[BetterLanes]

Time for an update! Good stuff first. My H has continued on his best behavior and "responsible adult" behaviors. Examples: taking the initiative to organize birthday gifts for his family members, talking to D11 in calm and investigating (rather than challenging) ways about her behavior, helping with the washing up without complaining, and I even got roses. So far so good. A recycle is fun, I should do it more often! There is slow progress on him arranging to see a T, he has picked one out but I don't know if contact or arrangements have been made yet.

So mainly at the moment it is all about sex. I was kind of surprised when that became the main focus of this thread but actually that has turned out to be pretty accurate. Disclaimer before I continue, I am not going to post on here when sexual contact does occur, because it's not fair if I'm inhibited from that partly by thinking that I have to post about it to a potentially quite large Internet audience. Sometimes one wonders how one's life has got to the point it has. Anyway.

My H asked for sex outright on Thursday or Friday last week, and I told him I wanted to talk about it first (this was one of the outstanding conversations I felt still needed to happen). I mentioned what I said above I was going to talk about, and asked him to read Nagoski's book, which he is now doing. (He asked if we can have sex before he finishes the book, I said "um"). So that is in progress and he is finding it interesting and informative, I think he has got to the part about stress interfering with sexual response which is one of the main points I wanted him to pick up about it.

However, he is increasingly expressing sexual frustration. He has been very tactile and I gather from remarks he has made that he thinks the combination of his good behavior and affectionate/attentive physical contact should by now have resulted in sex occurring. (FF's supermarket metaphor is spot on, he thinks he has put a whole bunch of quarters in the cart now and is starting to get annoyed that the thing isn't working yet.) Last night he explained to me (as near as I could understand at 3 a.m. when the explaining took place) that he feels that he has to hold himself back from feeling loving and affectionate feelings towards me because he is currently not allowed to express that sexually. This is important, and help me out here please, to what extent is this true? I was reading (of course) in "DIY Sex and Relationship Therapy" by Lori Boul, which looks promising for couple work, something which seemed to chime with that viewpoint (titled "Understanding Men"):

"Women often complain that their male partners are only interested in sex because they constantly touch, pat or grab some part of their anatomy. This isn't surprising since physical contact is part of sexual expression. But if you consider that men express their emotions differently [by action and other physical ways like touching or kissing], then they might just be trying to say: I like the feel of your body, I want to be close to you, I love you, I care about you, I find you sexy, I enjoy making love with you, I want to make love with you whenever you are ready."

So especially guys, and I know there are a lot on this board who aren't getting any at this time, which way does the cause and effect work here? Does the lack of physical sexual expression genuinely reduce or repress a man's feelings of love and affection? Or is this just a dressed-up combination of flipping the blame onto me and another form of coercion (I can't love you any more if you won't have sex with me)? I really don't know which way to take it.

I also note that Lori Boul recommends, and according to her book any sex therapist would also recommend, abstaining from sex during the earlier stages of addressing sexual difficulties, and ensuring relationship issues are sorted out first. My H wouldn't want to have to go to a real sex therapist to get "officially" told that, but I plan to talk tonight about that book (and read him the extract I quoted above and also tell him she uses a sex ban followed by gradual reintroduction). So I genuinely feel I've been doing the right thing both for me and for the sexual relationship, but my H doesn't feel it that way. All suggestions appreciated about how to sort this out!

BetterLanes x

[formflier]

All suggestions appreciated about how to sort this out!

 

I would suggest you compromise. 

Let him go first.  See if he really "moves" of his position or not.  Hint:  Any movement towards you (and away from BPDish "my way is the highway") should be honored with some movement on your side.

Compromise... .

FF

[formflier]

I really don't know which way to take it.

 

Don't create a dichotomous choice... and then try to figure out which one.

Look at this as a spectrum.

OK... .not talking down to anyone... .but let's not skip over the important stuff.

Boys and girls are different... .(earth shattering news alert)

Yet... .within those massive differences your hubby is somewhere on a spectrum of "how guys are".

Furthermore... .he's been trained and adjusted to be on that spectrum in a certain place by you BetterLanes for 20ish years of a sexual relationship (rough guess from memory of years).

In this case, I suspect that you inadvertently "trained" him away from what you really want.  Not trying to entirely blame you for this... .yet by same token you had much more influence than you are giving yourself credit for... .IMO.

So... .a long winded way of saying there is radical acceptance here.  He is acting like a guy.  That's the start and the ending of the meaning.

He has expressed that he is going to work with you in T and seems to be making efforts to "figure out" what it takes to get YOU to understand that he loves you.

He's "hearing" about all these bad things he has been doing for such a long time (all the while thinking he is screaming "I love you" to Better Lanes) and he thinks the message has been getting through.

Now... .he is hearing that you "heard" something much different than what he was saying.

So... he's asking how he "speaks" to you... .and he isn't getting a clear answer.  In fact... it would appear the goalpost keeps moving... .

I say all this to let you know how it is very likely he is experiencing this.  I don't think this is your intention, yet it appears you keep charging down a pathway that is "telling him this".  I don't understand that... .can you help me out here?

Is there an element of punishment here? 

I'll sign off with another broad brush concern.  There are many many many cooks in the kitchen.  What do you expect the "meal" to taste like when it's all over.  Yeah... intentionally vague... .I bet you figure it out. 

FF

[BetterLanes]

Hi Formflier,

Thanks again! Haha I think cooks >> books, right? Plus assorted therapists and advisors. This actually is the same way I figure out how to cook a recipe - I read a whole bunch of different people's versions and synthesize the parts that seem most authentic (because everyone puts in a twist to make their version original) and most applicable to my tastes and preferences. Usually that approach works out pretty well for food. However I know it doesn't work out well at all for religion. Maybe relationships are somewhere in between.

That's an accurate guess for my H's response, I read him the extract from Boul last night about men expressing affection physically and he very much agreed with it. Regarding moving goalposts and punishment, I think that both of those things are true right now. In order to have the conversation I had twelve days ago with my H, I had to be in the headspace where I really was prepared for and comfortable with the idea of the whole thing ending at that point (including a bunch of anger, resentment, negative focus, etc). I can't just flip back out of that, especially as there has been a lot of dealing with his emotional issues and needs since (starting 2 hours after the end of the conversation and continuing since), which has effectively put me back in the place where his needs have to be my top priority, which wasn't the point at all. My two T sessions since have been mostly about him still. I haven't yet gotten the space I need to think about what I want and need in the relationship. I'm still minimizing my own emotions and stuck in a state of alert around my H (although with less fear in the mix). I agree that he is making some good efforts and I think I understand more now about his feelings, but we're both a long way from being out of the woods.

My H has just booked in for a T appointment early next week, so that's a good step. He mentioned autism in the introductory email that he showed me, but not BPD, which he is uncomfortable thinking/talking about. I didn't suggest adding that but just said "good job". So we can see how that goes as a next step.

BetterLanes x

[formflier]

Can you help me understand the feelings you have for your husband?

What do you imagine it's like for him now?

You know your husband... .I'm assuming he will be alone with the T.  What do you think he will say when he is asked "So... what's going on?"

FF

[formflier]

  especially as there has been a lot of dealing with his emotional issues and needs since (starting 2 hours after the end of the conversation and continuing since), which has effectively put me back in the place where his needs have to be my top priority, which wasn't the point at all. My two T sessions since have been mostly about him still. 

Can you expand on this... .a lot.

I'm going to guess that will fill in lots of blanks for me.

On the one hand... .I obviously have lots of questions about your current "tactical" choices (you have the strategy right).

When I read the quoted part... .I begin to question if you have the strategy right.

I don't understand your role in his emotions.  One of my favorite phrases is "let him connect the dots"... .mostly... .you shouldn't be around while he fiddles with his "dots".

and... to connect this to the sex thing.

When he does come around and he has his dots in order... .you need to "tell" him that in various ways which are consistent.  So that he "knows" he has the "dots" correct.



FF

[BetterLanes]

Can you help me understand the feelings you have for your husband?

FF

That's the ten thousand dollar question, isn't it  That's really what I need space and focus to think about. Lori Boul already said she can't help!

"In this book I have deliberately avoided talking about love - simply because there are no methods or techniques that can make people fall in or out of love. Love is a highly complex emotion that has defied adequate scientific explanation."

WRT my role in my H's emotions, he has very little ability to self-soothe and wants a lot of attention, physical touching and verbal communication/reassurance from me. If he doesn't have anything sensible to say he will say more or less any random comment just to receive a response. He talked most of the way through my TV costume drama the other day (heinous). If he doesn't receive physical and verbal feedback right away he interprets it as rejection and this increases the negative feelings (and then he is able to blame me for them). This is not compatible with me having space to think about my own feelings.

He told me the T asked him in their phone chat whether he was getting a divorce, and he answered that he thought so after the conversation a fortnight ago, but didn't think so now. The answer I am currently giving out to "Do you love me?" is just a straight "Yes". He is nowhere near ready emotionally for that to be nuanced in any way. ("Well honey, I definitely told myself that, but it's possible my feelings were caused by a process of early enmeshment caused by my own psychological difficulties, followed by trauma bonding and intermittent reinforcement. I'm working on figuring that out. Don't worry, I'll be sure to let you know.") It's tough on him because I am simultaneously wanting him to stand down in terms of the abusive/controlling behaviors, and man up in terms of emotional self-regulation and responsibility, and I'm not sure to what extent he has the capability to do both those things.

I really want as a next step to find out from his T sessions what are the underlying issues if any. If it is autism, I can start reading some more books (yep) about that. I said to the Relate counsellor quite a while back that I can see there are a lot of issues to be fixed in the ways we relate to each other, but I didn't know what my feelings (and indeed his) would actually be about the relationship if those issues were all fixed, because they made up such a big proportion of the relationship. If you remember I was planning to present my H with the whole BPD-annulment idea to give him also a get-out clause if he wasn't sufficiently bothered about the relationship to fix the issues, but it turned out that he currently is sufficiently bothered.

My date deadline is to have all this at least on the way to being sorted out in time for our 20th wedding anniversary 9 months from now. For that I want to either do something meaningful indicating that we are both committed to the marriage (like renewal of vows level of meaningful, which is technically correct for a marriage where a cause for annulment exists anyway) or be done. I don't want to fake my way through some event for social purposes. I know that is quite ambitious for a timescale and I'm not expecting for everything to be roses and stardust in the relationship by that date. This is more about making decisions and examining both our feelings based on the new information that arises as my H becomes increasingly aware of the relationship issues and hopefully increasingly self-aware.

Hopefully that does fill in some blanks FF!

BetterLanes x

[formflier]

It does help fill in the gaps somewhat.

A few big picture things.

Clarity of communications from you... .and succinctness. 

I like leaving out nuance... .solid work!  Take that same mindset and apply it to many many many other areas of your life/relationship.

Ie (are we getting a divorce)... .your answer (No... we're doing therapy)  Now... .do not get pinned down on "not ever" or "promise" or any of that.

People don't get guaranteed futures... that's life. 

Now... .what I would hope that you can add to "Yes" for  I love you (and other things) is some acknowledgment of tough feelings (validation if you will)  Again... short.

This is a bit of unique thread because it is unusual to have such a "compliant" partner.  I take from this that your hubby truly was in another world and thought he was doing the right thing to scream from the mountain top  "I love BetterLanes" 

I'm not suggesting he doesn't have dysfunction of some sort going on... .I would be shocked if he doesn't.  That being said... .for almost 20 years this has worked for him and he likely believed it was working for you.

Please imagine the shock. 

Read your posts... there are lots of things in there about "what's going on" with your hubby and what's going to be figured out.  Weigh that against the amount of time and effort figuring out "what's going on " with BetterLanes.

I'm not suggesting this in a "blame" way... .I'm suggesting this in a "leadership" way.  You seem to be the one to initiate this massive change in the relationship.  The faster you figure out where you want to go with YOU and what's up with YOU... .the sooner it will "appear" that there are stable "goalposts"

I would hope you can appreciate the circular quality of the "argument" that you might send back of "Well... it depends on what we figure out with my hubby"

Guess what...

He is likely thinking "well... we'll have to see what gets figured out with BetterLanes... "

Of the two of you... which is most likely to be more "emotionally grounded"? 

FF

[BetterLanes]

Hi FF,

Thank you, a sound assessment as usual! I agree very much it was a shock for my H to hear these things. I once had a conversation in which I was challenging described by the other party as "like being savaged by a squirrel". Which of us are you identifying as the "compliant" partner? If it's my H, then I'm taking into account the surprising and unexpected nature of his own recent squirrel-savaging by me when gauging the likelihood of longer-term compliance. He has an introductory T session tonight so we will see what he gathers from that.

You are absolutely right that I have been focused on figuring out "what's going on" with my H rather than with myself while posting to this board. The logic/history goes like this:

My H behaved in ways that made me very unhappy about being married to him.
+
I believed that the marriage was indissoluble according to God's commandments.
+
My H had a track record of reacting badly and with anger/resentment to actual or implied questioning of our relationship (where "implied" could mean for example any failure to comply immediately with requests for physical contact). This meant that raising such questions resulted in increased unhappiness. Creating increased unhappiness in an indissoluble marriage does not seem like a good strategy.

Given these inputs, I believed that there was no action I could take to improve the relationship, and that only God was in a position to effect any change. My selected strategy was to ignore as much as possible of the unhappiness and wait for divine intervention. (It is very, very rare for me to be at so much of an impasse that I cannot form a plan of positive problem-solving action at all, but there I was.)

So then ~4 months ago I found out two key facts:
(1) My H's strange patterns of behavior seemed a good fit for being explained by a personality disorder.
(2) You can get a marriage annulment if a spouse has a personality disorder.

So it appears it is possible that the marriage is not in fact indissoluble. As you can see this possibility is a massive game-changer, as it would free me to express my feelings and request behavior changes from my H, without being required to remain in the marriage regardless of the possibly quite extreme consequences of doing that. So as you have correctly identified FF, my focus during the time I have been posting on this board has been on ensuring that I can definitely have that conversation. Most of my T and MC sessions have been mostly directed towards that, and the same with my research into BPD and "what's going on" with my H, and my research into annulments / separation / divorce. All directed to finding out is there something identifiably wrong with my H (rather than two "regular" people having regular relationship difficulties), and does that something mean that God would be okay with me at least causing a separation? I needed to know all this before getting to the point of having a potentially relationship-rupturing conversation with my H. I've reached that point and had that conversation now (although it was not by any means a complete disclosure of my feelings / requests, it was plenty enough for his level of emotional resilience to handle).

So the next steps (back with a plan) I believe are:
(1) Stop talking with my T about my H and start talking about me (she will be pleased).
(2) See what happens between my H and his prospective T tonight and whether he decides to continue with that. Any progress towards answering the question "BPD, autism, or nothing really with a label", and any evidence of a capacity for self-examination and self-help by my H, will help me to clarify my feelings and attitudes about the relationship. Although the books I have read in the last ~4 months have mainly been helpful with regards to getting me to the point of confrontation, it is possible that they were the wrong books for working through the relationship issues in the longer term.
(3) Try to gauge the extent of my H's and my changes in relationship behaviors.
(4) Examine and disclose my emotions and feelings about the relationship to the extent that is possible depending on my H's progress in developing emotional resilience in (2). This may occur in the context of working through Lori Boul's book together. 

FF, you are right that these are all circular and feed into each other, I'm aware of that. Unfortunately due to the considerations of God's will and my H's behavior/emotional characteristics, it was never as simple as figuring out what I wanted of the relationship and expressing it, and it really still isn't. Nowhere in the Bible does it say to follow your heart and trust your gut - indeed the opposite, "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure." I am currently also still struggling to get any space to figure me out at this stage of the process. It is on my "still to do" list but I am pretty confident it will happen.

BetterLanes x

[formflier]

I love Biblical discussions about the heart.

FF homework challenge... .

Post the NIV version of Proverbs 4:23.

Then post  some thoughts on how that has played out up to this point... .and how you hope it will play out going forward.

Keep up the good work BetterLanes!

FF

[formflier]

BetterLanes

What's going on in your relationship these days?

FF

[BetterLanes]

Hi Formflier, thank you for asking! I am working up to a post about this.

My H has had six therapy sessions and is taking GABA for anxiety and melatonin for sleep issues. He is much less anxious now, which makes the situation more peaceful. He is still critical and often negative.

Although my H's T was not interested in making a diagnosis beyond anxiety and separation anxiety, my H has self-diagnosed with Asperger's/ASD (autism spectrum disorder). This is a better fit than BPD for his behaviors and attitudes and the relationship issues. I have been reading Karen Rowlands' book "Asperger Marriage and Relationships: Insights from the Front Line". She has written an autobiography of the relationship called "Walking on Eggshells".

A number of the relationship behaviors and issues resulting from Asperger's/ASD are similar to those resulting from BPD. There is a recent study here
https://www.autismresearchtrust.org/News/borderline-personality-disorder-or-autism
(paper at https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0184447&type=printable)
"To our knowledge, this is the first study to investigate autistic traits, empathizing and systemizing
abilities in ASC [autistic spectrum conditions], BPD, comorbid ASC+BPD, and controls... .We are only aware of one previous
study that reported results with the AQ [Autism Quotient, a test for autistic traits] in people with BPD. Out of 38 women with BPD, almost half of them scored above the cut-off of the AQ. The difference on the AQ between the BPD and the ASC group was not statistically significant in our random sample, suggesting that
people with BPD may have as high levels of autistic traits as people with ASC. This finding
would need to be replicated in a larger sample but is in line with the idea that some females
with BPD have undiagnosed ASC, due to ASC not being easily detected in females."

I have finally gotten an appointment with Catholic Marriage Care and had one telephone counselling session, with another coming up on Wednesday.

I hope to post soon (or we can split this thread) about the relationship features for which BPD was a good explanation that also fit with autism/ASD as a good explanation, and some of the differences I observe in my H.

More soon,

BetterLanes x

[formflier]

Focus on the behavior... .not the "correct diagnosis"

My wife is likely much more PPD than BPD.  That being said... .those distinctions are more for professionals.  

I hope you focus on what you see and deal with every day.

Sounds like there is general movement in a better direction!   

FF