Pushing ahead

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

After 2 years of being unable to resolve my divorce through collaborative legal process, I notified my collab L that I am dropping out of the process. I requested a final meeting with a mediator to make one last attempt at getting to a resolution ... .if my xw will even consent to show up to said meeting. My collab L was very supportive of my approach and resolve to not entertain discussions on "parenting issues" during mediation unless they would be serious consideration for a judge in court (i.e. no talk of kids getting to sleep 30 minutes past bedtime, or kids watching four 3 minute Tom and Jerry cartoons on You Tube on one school night - yes, I have paid $325/hour to collab team to discuss this level of triviality).

One thing my collab L stated yesterday is that if I take this to court, either xw or I will be given majority custody. He has consistently said that in my state, courts do not like 50/50 custody plans. This is a shift from what I understood. Right now, through collaborative, we have a signed parent plan that is 50/50. My understanding is that this plan is accepted legal document in court, i.e. can be extracted from collaborative process and used. I had thought if I use it for court case, I will fare no worse than 50/50.

This news brings new concern - do I stand a chance of losing time with my kids? I will have to talk to my litigation divorce L and gain some clarity. On the plus side, I may become the majority custodial parent and stand to gain time. My collab and litigation L both state CE for my county has bias toward fathers gaining more time (not a good blanket approach for a CE, but could work for me). But, there is a nagging doubt that I may lose time by going to court.

I know I have to do this to get the divorce finalized and resolve things financially to move on in life. Just could use some encouragement from the community that I am doing the right (probably the only) thing. That one offhand comment shook my resolve. Guess it's normal to fear the unknown of court a bit.

Help talk me off the ledge ... .

[takingandsending]

After 2 years of being unable to resolve my divorce through collaborative legal process, I notified my collab L that I am dropping out of the process. I requested a final meeting with a mediator to make one last attempt at getting to a resolution ... .if my xw will even consent to show up to said meeting. My collab L was very supportive of my approach and resolve to not entertain discussions on "parenting issues" during mediation unless they would be serious consideration for a judge in court (i.e. no talk of kids getting to sleep 30 minutes past bedtime, or kids watching four 3 minute Tom and Jerry cartoons on You Tube on one school night - yes, I have paid $325/hour to collab team to discuss this level of triviality).

One thing my collab L stated yesterday is that if I take this to court, either xw or I will be given majority custody. He has consistently said that in my state, courts do not like 50/50 custody plans. This is a shift from what I understood. Right now, through collaborative, we have a signed parent plan that is 50/50. My understanding is that this plan is accepted legal document in court, i.e. can be extracted from collaborative process and used. I had thought if I use it for court case, I will fare no worse than 50/50.

This news brings new concern - do I stand a chance of losing time with my kids? I will have to talk to my litigation divorce L and gain some clarity. On the plus side, I may become the majority custodial parent and stand to gain time. My collab and litigation L both state CE for my county has bias toward fathers gaining more time (not a good blanket approach for a CE, but could work for me). But, there is a nagging doubt that I may lose time by going to court.

I know I have to do this to get the divorce finalized and resolve things financially to move on in life. Just could use some encouragement from the community that I am doing the right (probably the only) thing. That one offhand comment shook my resolve. Guess it's normal to fear the unknown of court a bit.

Help talk me off the ledge ... .

[kells76]

That would be a frightening possibility for me to confront -- if DH returning to court meant he'd have less time with the kids. I can see why you felt shaken up.  

Is your state one where there is no separation between physical and legal custody?

And by the court "not liking 50/50 custody plans", does that mean that your court doesn't like having two parents split legal custody? Or the court doesn't like parenting time plans where the kids are 50% with Mom and 50% with Dad?

I could imagine a scenario where a court doesn't like it when parents share legal custody, perhaps because there would be no tiebreaker for disputes. I find it harder to imagine a scenario where a court doesn't like it when the kids have equal time at both houses.

Maybe talk in excruciating detail with your L about the nit-picky distinctions between legal custody, physical custody, and parenting time. I wonder if having that level of knowledge might help you focus your strategy going forward... .and maybe also help you work with some of your fears.

I guess what I'm getting at is there is no necessary correlation between custody arrangements and parenting time. It could be logically possible (though highly improbable) in some jurisdictions to have 0% custody and 100% parenting time.

[Mutt]

Hi takingandsending,

I can't offer you legal advise I can understand the position that you're in. They do 50/50 in Canada although it's not to say that gender bias is completely non-existent. I can't imagine what it was like for fathers two or three decades ago. I would of felt completely heart broken if I can't see or have reasonable access to my kids.

I thought if I don't try to go to court and fight for the kids, it's an unpleasant thought going to court I abhor it, you have strangers deciding the fate of your family,  I thought that the kids might resent me later on in life if they end up being screwed up because they are living with a mom with undiagnosed traits of BPD and didn't have an emotionally stable parent present.

At least if I tried and failed then I won't have to worry about possibly regretting it later on, I can say that at least I tried.

[ForeverDad]

I did what I had to do.  For too many years I was hoping things would get better but they only got worse.  I'd say the same to you.  Do what you have to do, just as smartly and strategically as possible.

Don't think you can't choose.  Indecision is a choice too.  (I would have written 'Inaction' but you did act and tried a collaborative approach.  Sadly, it didn't work.)

However, I do agree that all this time with 50% parenting time has documented your involved parenting.  If you had headed directly to court you probably wouldn't have had this documented history to support your case.  You did try, that's to your credit.

[takingandsending]

Hi kells76. I think the court in my state does not like 50/50 physical custody (i.e. parenting time) on the basis that they want a legal custodial parent. Unfortunately, not all that progressive. But, I will clarify this with my litigation L. Thank you for the reminder.

Mutt, I think you were one of the earliest people who challenged me about whether I am aiming for a custody based on my needs or my kids needs. I still keep this as my compass to try to do what is best for them, even when it is difficult. And I am scared of the prospect of having strangers decide how much time I get to have with my children. But, you are right. I have to at least try to do what is best for them, even if the courts don't agree. Gulp.

ForeverDad, I appreciate your clear summary. I think that the one thing collaborative did for me was to get me to 50% time. As you say, I have that to show to the courts, I have the signed agreement on parent time, and it's maybe a little better place to enter court than I may have had without it. I know the ways in which it didn't work for me - basically, how as the only rational and fair person in the room, the collab team all too often looked to me for resolution v. setting clear boundaries for the irrational person in the room. Weird to watch a bunch of professionals you are paying a fortune to get the same run around that I have gotten throughout my marriage.

I set a deadline for the final collab meeting by November 15. We will see if it happens. If not, on to the next chapter in court. After reading DaddyBear's recent post, the vagaries of court are still worrisome. But I will do my utmost to use that signed parent plan as the go forward document.

[livednlearned]

It is definitely a nail biter to go before a judge and, as you and others mention, have a stranger decide what's best for the kids.

One silver lining (only to people coparenting with a BPD ex spouse) is that she will likely not follow the order in both ways. She will keep them more, and keep them less. What you have to hope for (even with a court order) is that she keeps them less.

My ex made a lot of legal noise about getting more time, and then simultaneously gave up his time, always for one reason or another.

It's not ideal, and you want the best outcome of course.

There is often an alternate reality for many of us that happens regardless of what happens with our custodial time. 

If I remember correctly, your wife is very self-involved. Hopefully that means she needs you to care for the kids while she finds herself.

[formflier]

Right now, through collaborative, we have a signed parent plan that is 50/50.  do I stand a chance of losing time with my kids?

 I will have to talk to my litigation divorce L and gain some clarity.


I know I have to do this to get the divorce finalized and resolve things financially to move on in life. 

I'm fairly new to your divorce story... .I know it's been going on a while, yet don't remember details.  There is another comment in the thread about a self involved wife  (use that to your advantage).

FF will talk you back from the ledge.  I would encourage you to be more pragmatic.  Remember... this BPD thing takes odd twists and turns... .sometimes an unconventional pathway appears.  Be pragmatic and take it.

Assuming that path leads to something of benefit for you.

How old are the kids?

What BAD  THING happens if collaborative drags on for another year?

What GOOD THING may happen if collaborative drags on for another year? 

I'll add... .what good thing may happen if collaborative drags on or you offer to continue it, using your pwBPD's self absorption to benefit yourself.

Help me understand why your pwBPD wants this process.  What is she "getting from it"?  Offer to feed more of that... .in exchange for something you want.

Is the concept of custodial and decision making the same thing in your state?  Offhand I'm wondering if you can offer to stay in collaborative in exchange for modification of parenting plan (of course shifting it in your favor)

Especially if you can shift it in your favor and it appears she is getting something she wants (to help her self absorption)

Last for now:  The more documented parenting time you have the LESS chances a court will take it away.  Is the "cost" of staying in collaborative worth the benefit of continuing to stack the deck? 

FF

[livednlearned]

Right now, through collaborative, we have a signed parent plan that is 50/50. My understanding is that this plan is accepted legal document in court, i.e. can be extracted from collaborative process and used.

If I remember correctly, didn't your wife talk about wanting to move to another state?

Does the parenting plan provide the same safeguards as a custody order, making it so she would need a move-away order to relocate the kids?

[takingandsending]

FF -

Kids are: S12 (13 in a month); S7

BAD for another year of collab:
- Financially bad. 1) Married 19 years at present date (requested divorce 2 years ago; separated residences 18 months ago). In my state, we are heading toward the dangerous long term spousal support at 20 years of marriage. 2) Tax burden shifts to payee of spousal support as of 2019.
- Communications bad. 1) Divorce process continues the stress of which we all know pwBPD are more likely to dysregulate under. 2) Collab. process gives xw seemingly endless platform to ramp up her pervasive blaming and victimhood. We are stuck in this endless loop of "kids aren't getting enough sleep with dad", "kids aren't getting proper food with dad", "kids aren't getting enough consistency with dad", "dad says harmful things to kids emotional well being" v. discussing what can be done to reach final agreements. There is no exhausting of this in collaboration. I can (and have) offer(ed) to keep a diary of bedtime, meals, chores, etc., and pushed wife to do the same by agreeing on importance of these things. Guess who came to collab. session with diary and who didn't? Guess what happens in collab? No consequences. Just more of the same. Yes, I have the entire collab team on my side, including her L, but it doesn't matter. They are all equally powerless since there are no consequences.
- My mental health bad. I have been at this for over two years. I have responded, not responded, forwarded to L the various crap xw flings at me. But it is wearing me down. And my L can do nothing aside from raise it within the team. They all already believe I should be majority custody parent until xw is in treatment. She had CPS case opened against her by S12's counselor (as mandated reporter) because she wanted to crash car into a building with him in it because he was having a tantrum at her. This is not good for the kids or me. It needs to be finalized.

GOOD: 1) I gained the time I needed to move from 36% custody to 50% custody. As lnl noted, this effectively ends any possibility of xw moving the kids out of state. I needed the time to see that I could set up a separate residence and take care of my kids while maintaining a full time job. I needed to learn that I am a good dad. 2) The unknown of what court will bring wrt dysregulations from xw has been mitigated. This was probably the gentlest path to take for the kids, but the ambiguity of it is not helpful any longer. I think they are in a place where they feel comfortable with me and comfortable going between households.

I have to run now. But will write a little more later.

[formflier]

OK... that sounds bad.  What does it translate to in dollars and cents.

What is the current holdup? 

Think about what she "wants"... what "works" for her... .and try to take advantage of it... .especially if things can shift in your favor, prior to going to court.

Or... if this is as good as it gets... .pedal to the metal for court.

FF

[PeteWitsend]

takingandsending -

Boy, who talked you into going the "collaborative lawyer" route, with a spouse that likely has a behavioral disorder?  They deserve a lump of coal in their stocking for xmas.

I would do the following ASAP:

1) get a real lawyer.  Should be someone who's been practicing for at least 10 years in the county where you will be filing.  The idea is they will know the judges & mediators in that county well, and have established a working relationship with them.

2) your attorney will fill you in on the likely custody arrangement.  don't listen to anyone else on this, not even your collaborative lawyer.

3) Even if you don't get what you want at first, remember that circumstances change.
- don't give your Ex sole decision making over kids health & mental health even if he/she has primary custody
- talk to your attorney about your concerns regarding your Ex's high conflict behavior
- you may be filing for additional custody or even sole custody if your Ex can't keep it together, or violates court orders.

[takingandsending]

Okay. Back now.

Responses in order.

FF - 1) The financial is not horrible ... .yet. The tax burden will be dealt with by reducing support by whatever taxes I take on. That is straightforward. The 20 year thing - I asked my collab L and my litigation L if I am in danger here given that we have had separate residences for 1.5 years and started divorce 2 years ago. Both have said I am not, but in court a judge may rule that I am responsible for long term given household circumstances. I have kept payments going to her since separation so that there is no appearance of "starving out" my xw, as well as because I want my kids to have food, roof, etc.

2) What does she want? More parent time. And to move kids out of state. I have offered her an annual travel stipend so that she can "get away" in the winter, which also gives me more time with the boys. I am not giving an inch on parent time, for reasons of safety and well being of my sons. She generally wants more of whatever she gets ... .money, time with kids, anything to validate her self importance. I was able to work this into her getting more time for her business by taking the kids more. Eventually, I see things going that way - her life coach, healing business will mean more to her than her kids. She will still want to be involved to get strokes for when they do well.

Pete - 1) As far as collab, that's water under the dam and is on several past threads here. I did what I felt was the lowest impact for my kids at the time. My collab L is a "real" L, i.e. also a litigation L. He has 20+ years experience in family court, and he has successfully resolved HCP cases in collab. My mistake was one I repeated throughout the relationship, marriage and now divorce with my wife. I give her more credit for sanity than she is due. I thought, given the hardship on kids and financial hardships we were facing, that she could reach an agreement with facilitated help from collab team professionals. I was wrong. My L has stated to me that she is definitely one of the higher readings on the difficulty scale, not unlike siblings/friends/co-workers who all sensed something was amiss in xw. She has had the counselor/divorce coach and her lawyer on the defensive, and my L had had limited effectiveness to contain her.

2) I have hired a litigation L and am proceeding to take this to court. Xw has agreed, after I forced the issue, to one last collab session with a mediator who is a GAL and pro tem judge in my county. Hope is that xw realizes how much money and possibly custody she stands to lose if this goes to court. Hope is that mediator can lay it out plain and bare for her. Plan is to go to court.

I had to establish at least 40% custody to prevent her from successfully petitioning to move the kids out of state - that was per my collab L. I couldn't bulldog my way to that in collab, although I definitely did not direct the process enough. In June, we had parent plan signed and child support, division of property and maintenance all settled and agreed except for life insurance (on me) and compensation for painting our house that sold. I was willing to give these things to her so that she could have the win, but she has done a 180 and wants to renegotiate the parent plan on the basis of difficulties S7 had in the first month of switch to week on/week off schedule. She has conflated a statement I made that week on/week off might not be the optimal 50/50 schedule for S7 with 50/50 is not the optimal custody agreement for S7. Needless to say, I am not backing off of the signed parent plan. We can adjust the schedule, although at this point, S7 is now used to it and doing much better (at my house). This is BPD feelings=facts at its finest.

[livednlearned]

I give her more credit for sanity than she is due

I thought, given the hardship on kids and financial hardships we were facing, that she could reach an agreement ... .I was wrong.

My L has stated to me that she is definitely one of the higher readings on the difficulty scale

Described that way, she does not seem like the same person who will do this:

Hope is that xw realizes how much money and possibly custody she stands to lose if this goes to court.

I'm saying this as someone who lost a lot of money in my divorce (I know how hard that pavement feels). Why not call her bluff and cancel the last collab meeting. Say you are prepared to go straight to court. No explanations. Create some leverage.

She can always settle out of court last minute. It does happen.

My ex was a former trial attorney and knew the risks of going to court, and he relished it nonetheless. He had a psychotic episode in front of the judge and lost most of the rulings throughout a very active four-year litigious period. His attorney withdrew, the parenting coordinator withdrew, the judge put a gatekeeping order on him and summoned the bailiff at one point, he was ordered to pay me attorney fees, his psychiatric evaluation was discussed openly in court, his emails were read aloud, he delayed the refinancing of his own home.

And all that was the point. To stay negatively engaged, at all costs.

Because when it goes away, it feels like nothing and that is the true dragon in the room. If you do a 180 and seem intent on court, that may wake her up to the reality of what's about to happen more than hearing the same thing said by the same people in the same way.

[takingandsending]

Lnl, she did feel pressure because she agreed to meet which she has not done or set a timeline on for the last 4.5 months. She refused to return L’s calls because she does not want to spend any more money on the divorce. This is our last meeting to see if we can salvage what was a 95% done financial agreement at last meeting, and my collab L has had success in talking her into agreement previously on the parent plan and on maintenance.

And I am also ready to go to court. If this falls through, if she insists on revisiting custody, we are heading to court. And yeah I don’t have my hopes high for getting this done. Sucks.

[livednlearned]

I am also ready to go to court.

That's probably the most important piece in all this.

My ex was exceptional at sniffing out intent. I think it may be part of the hypersensitivity and distrust that BPD sufferers often experience. Everything was a game (in the transactional analysis sense) so there was always a payoff somewhere, and a win/lose, with me being the loser. I wasn't good at detecting the intent, I got too hung up on the words and behaviors. Ex on the other hand seemed to have a sixth sense about how I felt, and often got it right before I could express those feelings to myself  

It gave him an advantage.

It would be great to see you get a break on this, talkingandsending. I admire you for how well you've handled this. In some ways, her veneer of normalcy probably made this double difficult. With my ex, he was so over-the-top mean that it did create some obvious paths through the muck. You have a bit of both and that can be crazy-making.