UBPDh bombarding MIL with calls and distressing her

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi all,
Since going no contact almost two weeks ago after more emotional abuse, serious boundary busting and (most likely) uBPDh purposely disabling my van to make me stay with him, his attempts to contact me have become more and more frantic.

Several of my co-workers, including my roommate, have blocked him on Facebook. He called my sister and she hung up on him. He continues to call my MIL two or three times a day, asking her to call me and then calling back to see if she has heard from me. She does not call me every time he requests. I talked to her yesterday, and before that it was Wednesday. She knows exactly why I do not want to talk to him and supports that decision. However, the relentless calls from him are distressing to her. She has told him that I do not want to contact him but he persists in asking her to talk to me. Apparently he is trying to enlist her help to convince me to resume contact with him.

Things he tells MIL:
He is glad nothing is wrong with my van, because he was worried about it. 

He doesn't understand why I suddenly blocked him. He said we were getting along fine. He doesn't know what he did wrong.

I am the one who needs help. Brings up an incident from seven years ago when I went to the mental health crisis triage and stayed overnight. In 2011, he and I had just moved in together. I was pregnant and my doctor had recently changed my anti-depressant medication. The new medicine was not right for me. I became severely depressed. I had also just begun to experience the range of critical, negative, no-win setups, manipulation, extreme jealousy and controlling behaviors and emotional and physical abuse that he could and did display over the next eight years. I was trying to take care of my two daughters, then two and three years old, plus being pregnant, trying to work (at a job he constantly criticized and tried to sabotage) and when the medication changed, the depression and anxiety attacks worsened considerably. I told my doctor about it and she had me go to the mental health crisis center. I stayed overnight, but there was nothing they could do because I was pregnant other than to tell me to stop taking the medicine. UBPDh was left at home with my two daughters, and I guess it triggered some abandonment because he has always painted me black over that incident, saying I was faking it, saying I did it on purpose, saying that I never said anything to him about being depressed (as if me laying on the couch and crying almost nonstop shouldn't have tipped him off- even the next-door neighbor knew something was wrong). I don't know why he is bringing this incident up now, but it has always been one of his "favorites" to throw out there for why I am a) a bad mother and wife, b) manipulative,  c) crazy,  d)selfish or e) all of the above.

He has continued to make posts on Facebook that make him look like the poor, misunderstood victim/martyr. I have not read the posts. My co-workers have not told me the content, but some of them have asked me about it because they can tell that he is making himself look like the victim and portraying me as the "bad guy."  They all can tell that he is delusional and disordered.

MIL wants me to contact uBPDh and tell him that I am done with the relationship so he will stop asking her to call me. I do not want to contact him, because I feel that it will only escalate things. He will use any contact as a way to try to manipulate me or use FOG. He will not hear what he does not want to accept. He isn't hearing it now. MIL has told him I said I am done, yet he still tries to push her into trying to convince me to save the relationship (which she doesn't do, but he still puts pressure on her.) She has told him she is not going to bombard me with calls, because she doesn't want me to go NC on her (I wouldn't, but still.) He does not care that he is stressing his mother out. He can't get to me so he is trying to get her to do it, and he is not listening to her when she says that she will not try to convince me to come back and that I have said I am done because he is unstable and not safe to be around.

I don't know what to do. I feel sorry for MIL, but I don't think contacting him will stop him from relentlessly calling her to get to me. I think it would just add fuel to the fire.

Thoughts anyone?

Thanks

Redeemed

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi all,
Since going no contact almost two weeks ago after more emotional abuse, serious boundary busting and (most likely) uBPDh purposely disabling my van to make me stay with him, his attempts to contact me have become more and more frantic.

Several of my co-workers, including my roommate, have blocked him on Facebook. He called my sister and she hung up on him. He continues to call my MIL two or three times a day, asking her to call me and then calling back to see if she has heard from me. She does not call me every time he requests. I talked to her yesterday, and before that it was Wednesday. She knows exactly why I do not want to talk to him and supports that decision. However, the relentless calls from him are distressing to her. She has told him that I do not want to contact him but he persists in asking her to talk to me. Apparently he is trying to enlist her help to convince me to resume contact with him.

Things he tells MIL:
He is glad nothing is wrong with my van, because he was worried about it. 

He doesn't understand why I suddenly blocked him. He said we were getting along fine. He doesn't know what he did wrong.

I am the one who needs help. Brings up an incident from seven years ago when I went to the mental health crisis triage and stayed overnight. In 2011, he and I had just moved in together. I was pregnant and my doctor had recently changed my anti-depressant medication. The new medicine was not right for me. I became severely depressed. I had also just begun to experience the range of critical, negative, no-win setups, manipulation, extreme jealousy and controlling behaviors and emotional and physical abuse that he could and did display over the next eight years. I was trying to take care of my two daughters, then two and three years old, plus being pregnant, trying to work (at a job he constantly criticized and tried to sabotage) and when the medication changed, the depression and anxiety attacks worsened considerably. I told my doctor about it and she had me go to the mental health crisis center. I stayed overnight, but there was nothing they could do because I was pregnant other than to tell me to stop taking the medicine. UBPDh was left at home with my two daughters, and I guess it triggered some abandonment because he has always painted me black over that incident, saying I was faking it, saying I did it on purpose, saying that I never said anything to him about being depressed (as if me laying on the couch and crying almost nonstop shouldn't have tipped him off- even the next-door neighbor knew something was wrong). I don't know why he is bringing this incident up now, but it has always been one of his "favorites" to throw out there for why I am a) a bad mother and wife, b) manipulative,  c) crazy,  d)selfish or e) all of the above.

He has continued to make posts on Facebook that make him look like the poor, misunderstood victim/martyr. I have not read the posts. My co-workers have not told me the content, but some of them have asked me about it because they can tell that he is making himself look like the victim and portraying me as the "bad guy."  They all can tell that he is delusional and disordered.

MIL wants me to contact uBPDh and tell him that I am done with the relationship so he will stop asking her to call me. I do not want to contact him, because I feel that it will only escalate things. He will use any contact as a way to try to manipulate me or use FOG. He will not hear what he does not want to accept. He isn't hearing it now. MIL has told him I said I am done, yet he still tries to push her into trying to convince me to save the relationship (which she doesn't do, but he still puts pressure on her.) She has told him she is not going to bombard me with calls, because she doesn't want me to go NC on her (I wouldn't, but still.) He does not care that he is stressing his mother out. He can't get to me so he is trying to get her to do it, and he is not listening to her when she says that she will not try to convince me to come back and that I have said I am done because he is unstable and not safe to be around.

I don't know what to do. I feel sorry for MIL, but I don't think contacting him will stop him from relentlessly calling her to get to me. I think it would just add fuel to the fire.

Thoughts anyone?

Thanks

Redeemed

[Cat Familiar]

Since you won't speak to him, he's using his last connection to you, his mother, to try and manipulate you. Of course that's distressing to her, and her distress is upsetting you. However you know that you're doing the right thing by maintaining no contact with him.

Other people are blocking him and he continues to view himself as a victim, and meanwhile brings up issues from the past, hoping to make you look as though you're the one with the problem, not him.

Your MIL wants you to tell him that the relationship is done and that he should quit calling her. You don't want to speak to him because you think it will escalate his attempts to manipulate you, and I totally agree.

My suggestion is that you see if the DV folks could have a lawyer write him a letter stating that the relationship is over and that the restraining order is in effect and therefore he should cease trying to contact you through his mother or on social media.

[I Am Redeemed]

Thanks Cat,

I was thinking of something along those lines also. MIL even said I could write him a letter, she just is getting tired of him trying to use her to talk to me. I don't think that will ever stop, though it may lessen in intensity over time, but I believe that as long as he thinks she is still communicating with me that he will keep trying to pressure her to advocate for our r/s for him.

I see the DV counselor this week, as well as my T. I still have not made contact with legal services, but will try again today. We have been playing phone tag.

I suppose I could call my DV advocate and ask her about it as well. Just needed some confirmation that my suspicions about his behavior are most likely correct. He is already not hearing what he doesn't want to hear so I don't see any reason why that would change.

Redeemed

[Notwendy]

There are three people here= and a triangle.

Keep in mind, MIL  does not have BPD, but she is a part of her own family dynamics- consciously or not. This doesn't mean she has bad intent or is dysfunctional, but that these patterns tend to run in families and they include poor boundaries and enabling behaviors. She may completely agree with you, but this is also her own son and they have their patterns.

This is an issue that is between him and her but it is handled by triangle. He calls her up to ask her to contact you. She calls you up to tell him to stop. This is a triangle. Son ( victim) calls mom ( rescuer). Mom feels like a victim, calls you to help ( rescue) her from her son who is harassing her.

The direct way: Son calls mom to tell her to contact you. Mom says "Son, I love you and love hearing from you but I will not do that." This is likely to get an uncomfortable response from her son. She doesn't want to deal with that, but if he is harassing her, she needs to have this boundary. She can choose to not answer the phone or stop the conversation if her continues to pressure her.

So to MIL: "I am sorry your son is involving you in this. I can not ask him to stop calling you. Please do whatever you need to do to resolve this with him. "

[I Am Redeemed]

Notwendy,

That's kind of what I was thinking too about the triangulation. I offered to give MIL all the known phone numbers uBPDh uses to call, since his cell phone is off at the moment, and that way she could choose to not answer if she doesn't want to. She doesn't want to do that, because he will just keep calling, and I guess she doesn't want to block him.

I don't think that anything she, I, or anyone else could say that would stop him from trying to use her to get to me. Even the protection order. He is one to always look for the loophole, and contacting his mother is not contacting me so reiterating the protection order will not stop that.

She has already told him that I said I am done, to which he responds " just talk to her".

I don't think there is anything I can do to stop his calls to her. She will have to either stop answering or tell him she can no longer reach me. Even that probably won't stop him. He is persistent and obsessive.

Redeemed

[Notwendy]

I think it is fair to assume some enabling goes on in families where there is a disordered person and the enablers may not be disordered themselves- it's the family pattern. I also think it would be tough for a parent to block a grown child. She's still his mother regardless. Still it isn't your job to intervene. You can be supportive but if it was possible to discuss things reasonably with him, you would probably not be in the situation you are in. She will need to deal with him calling her.

[AskingWhy]

Notwendy,

That's kind of what I was thinking too about the triangulation. I offered to give MIL all the known phone numbers uBPDh uses to call, since his cell phone is off at the moment, and that way she could choose to not answer if she doesn't want to. She doesn't want to do that, because he will just keep calling, and I guess she doesn't want to block him.

I don't think that anything she, I, or anyone else could say that would stop him from trying to use her to get to me. Even the protection order. He is one to always look for the loophole, and contacting his mother is not contacting me so reiterating the protection order will not stop that.

She has already told him that I said I am done, to which he responds " just talk to her".

I don't think there is anything I can do to stop his calls to her. She will have to either stop answering or tell him she can no longer reach me. Even that probably won't stop him. He is persistent and obsessive.

Redeemed

Triangulation is always difficult to deal with as the individual being pulled in may or may not know the whole truth.  

pwBPD, sadly, don't understand the notion of either truth nor reality, hence their problems.  Hopefully, your own family members will see through the disguises.

[formflier]

I'm thinking that you should keep up NC until talking with DV and T more.

Part of that conversation should be the question of do you contact him and "give him a pathway" or you just "cut ties".

I'm not suggesting either one is the choice you should make, but it appears those are the two big choices.

If you should "give him a pathway"... .it should be clear that it is a pathway for you "to even consider a future relationship... ."   Essentially a pathway would be long term dedication to treatment and getting better for him.  A pathway should NOT be do 1, 2, 3 and get IAR back.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Sadly it appears that through the history of his behavior, there has been no ability nor desire to make self improvements. Therefore I fear that any talk of a "pathway" would merely reinforce his manipulative attempts to reassert himself into Redeemed's life. And he's already doing more of that at a distance than is comfortable or tolerable for people other than Redeemed. I wouldn't want to add fuel to that fire.

[I Am Redeemed]

FF,
I agree, I will remain NC until I talk to both counselor and T on Thu.

I have tried the pathway approach and I got excuses, manipulation and eventually resentment and blaming because he doesn't want to go to treatment. He has never been totally honest with any counselor he has ever been to, and the one who listened to me about the psychotic symptoms recommended medication and inpatient treatment which he refused.

The only pathway he wants is the one that will bring me back asap, regardless if I incur more psychological or emotional damage.

Cat,

Your observations are correct. He was on good behavior for a while to give me the impression that he is sincerely trying to change. But I think that was only to get me to lessen my guard and open the door for him to manipulate his way back in. When that didn't happen, he reverted to his controlling and abusive ways. Even his mother said he is only depressed because he didn't get his way. A healthy partnership is not his goal. His goal is getting me back so he can use me to soothe him and so he can draw from my energy to feed off of. And I don't have energy to spare.

Redeemed

[formflier]

Therefore I fear that any talk of a "pathway" would merely reinforce his manipulative attempts to reassert himself into Redeemed's life. And he's already doing more of that at a distance than is comfortable or tolerable for people other than Redeemed. I wouldn't want to add fuel to that fire.

It depends on how the pathway is set up.

1.  Licensed mental health professional  (not a church group, person, pastor... etc etc)
2.  Talk to that person about your relationship fears and desires
3.  Do NOT talk to me or MIL about "getting back together"

The list can go on. 

Essentially "I hear you want to get back together with me.  This is a pathway that works for me to "consider" this."

So... .his continuing on with manipulation is "proof" that he isn't on the pathway and wants something other than being with IAR.

Is it "reverse manipulation"?  Perhaps.  Will it work?  My guess is it would work for couple weeks... then lots of relapses.  Who knows.  Only one way to find out.

I suppose my thought here is it changes the dynamic and provides a chance at short term relief.

Right now it appears to me that the manipulation is happening by proxy, with MIL.  It may be productive to try and coach her about boundaries and how to firmly set them.

So... call comes in from unknown number, she answers... it's him. 

Hi son... how are you?

IAR this than and the other

I'm not able to talk with you about IAR, is there something else you wish to discuss

My guess is he gets her on the phone and then keeps her there.  That's really not your circus.  Perhaps you limit your MIL talks to grandkids... .and NOT issues with your marriage.

FF

[I Am Redeemed]

FF,

I absolutely do think he "holds her hostage" on the phone... .because he did it to me.

MIL and I are very much alike, especially where boundaries are concerned. After all, she went through a seven year r/s with uBPDh's father which from her accounts was even worse on the abuse scale than what I experienced. Even though they were divorced forty years ago (and he is no longer living) she went on to experience another abusive r/s after that marriage, and even now I have seen how her children and grandchildren take advantage of her. She is a caretaker by nature as well and I see that she is susceptible to FOG. Her house has been a landing spot for her kids and grandkids when their poor choices have placed them in a position of having nowhere else to go (this has been true of uBPDh and me, we have stayed with her for a few months here and there over the course of our r/s and uBPDh was trying to convince me to move back in with her now- he considers that a "safe" place because it is isolated from everyone I know and my only contacts would be his family).

MIL currently has temporary custody of her great grandson, a situation she was pushed into and has much anxiety about. The child is five months old and has special needs bc his mother, her granddaughter, used meth heavily during pregnancy. MIL is in her sixties and has health issues including high blood pressure, degenerative disc disease and possibly lupus. She does not know how she will be able to care for this child, but she took him in to keep him from going into foster care. Guilt- she lost custody of her own kids, and all three of her children have lost custody of their kids at one time or another.

I will talk over the "pathway" idea with my counselor and T, but I really think it is going to come down to MIL setting the boundaries. If he can't contact me, he will contact her. If he can't get MIL to talk me into giving him another chance, he will tell her he is worried about me and s2.

Interestingly, he was not calling MIL very much before the NC started. He would call her and launch into his account of being the victim and then he would get angry and hang up on her when she did not support his perceptions. He would then gripe to me about how she was not "being a mother to him" because she would call him out on his behavior. He attributed it to her unresolved resentment against his father, and refused to listen to her.

I also think he is too disordered and delusional to hear the "consider" part of the pathway. His black or white thinking leaves no room for anything other than complete reconciliation or complete rupture. Either we are together or apart, and if we are apart, he will try frantic, obsessive and desperate measures to get "us back". It's not about me at all, it's about him and what he thinks he needs to survive.

Redeemed

[Cat Familiar]

My suspicion is that he is more than just a pwBPD--that there are more severe mental health issues that he experiences. His history of long-term drug use has undoubtedly caused alterations in his brain, which add to his problems.

If he were "only BPD" then I could see the wisdom of offering a "pathway." With what you've shared, Redeemed, I believe that is a very dangerous route to take and could likely be experienced as intermittent reinforcement, something you definitely want to steer clear of for now.

[I Am Redeemed]

Cat,

Yes, I think it is more than just BPD. The psychotic symptoms and persecutory delusions showed up after severe relapses which involved heavy drug use... .and though over the years they lessened in intensity (at least when he wasn't using) they have never gone away.

I have spent lots of time trying to sort out what the heck is going on with him mentally so I could get him to receive the proper treatment, but it has proven to be a challenge that endangered me instead of helping him.

I suspect comorbid pd's and potentially a permanent drug induced psychotic disorder due to his history of amphetamine use. Not a promising mix for communication.

Redeemed

[formflier]

Definitely chat it through with counselors.

Honestly... .I share similar feelings of there being a low chance it will work.  I do wonder if giving him a narrow pathway (that is pointed away from you) may provide some temporary relief and it will also be an indicator of his state of mind.

Whether or not he "hears" consider or not... isn't the point.  The point is IF he takes any steps... it may provide relief and potentially put another person in his life pointing him in good direction.

And if he runs away from that (which is likely), it will help give YOU more ammo for those moments of weakness, which will know will come.  (not predicting failure here... .but even the strongest of us has our weak moments... we are human.)

Anyway... .I'm interested in the thoughts of your counselors on this idea.


FF

[formflier]

I have spent lots of time trying to sort out what the heck is going on with him mentally so I could get him to receive the proper treatment, but it has proven to be a challenge that endangered me instead of helping him.
 

This is the thought I'm hoping you will "flip".  Instead of you figuring it out... let him and professionals do that.  Then... .perhaps you will consider something.

The new "pathway" is ball is in his court, with "real credentialed medical help"... not the stuff he has been claiming (church etc etc)

FF

[I Am Redeemed]

FF,
I have been focusing on flipping that thought process. I am currently trying to focus more on healing and recovery from the trauma and abuse, which is one reason why I am seeing both my T and the dv counselor. Another reason is so I will have more support for the moments of weakness, because they do surface.

I was telling my co-shift leader last night about what happened with the van a couple of weeks ago, and the NC. I gave him only a brief rundown of the situation, and the first thing he said was "he's gaslighting you."

My question to my counselors would be how to communicate the "pathway" to him, if I choose to do that.

My instincts tell me he would either refuse treatment and make the excuse that he can't go because of work and that it's not fair for me to demand something of him that threatens his financial stability (this is a recurring tactic) or he will go, but will try to manipulate the counselor and give the appearance of trying to get help when really he is just manipulating the counselor (seen that before too.)

Redeemed

[formflier]

My question to my counselors would be how to communicate the "pathway" to him, if I choose to do that.
 

I would start out with asking the question of... ."is this wise?"  If it is... .then perhaps get to "how".

There is so much nuance involved here.  There is so much that a person that is trained in DV would likely understand better than us here on these boards.

Perhaps there is a best time in the "story" of your recovery where this makes sense.  Perhaps you are there... .perhaps not.


FF

[empath]

One of the things that I wanted my h to do was to talk to a counselor for a significant period of time. He did, sort of. He was seeing a therapist once a month and evidently working on being okay with my wanting a divorce. Eventually, the therapist managed to get him to let her talk to me because his descriptions weren't lining up. She asked me if I actually wanted divorce; I said no. Shortly after I talked to her, he stopped therapy.

The DV folks usually warn not to give a checklist of things that an abuser needs to do to get back.

[Cat Familiar]

The DV folks usually warn not to give a checklist of things that an abuser needs to do to get back.

Yes!
I was repeatedly pulled back into having a false sense of hope during my first marriage when my husband would have a temporary sense of remorse and would apologize for his behavior and vow to never do it again.

Of course that awareness never lasted longer than what it took to get me to let down my guard and trust him again, only for the same damn thing to recur again and again.

It takes a tremendous amount of willpower and focus to change long term habits. If a person is not accountable for their behavior and the consequences it has had upon others, the chances that they’d be motivated to change are slim to none.

The first step is taking responsibility for oneself and if that doesn’t happen, it’s almost a guarantee that, unlike the wording in investment prospectus, past performance will absolutely guarantee future results.

[I Am Redeemed]

Cat,

I agree about the "false hope" and the "checklist". I have been through the false hope too many times, and the "checklist" was something I refused to do. He tried to get me to make a "checklist", and I would never commit to resuming the relationship even if he did those things. I always tried to communicate that reconciliation is the LAST STEP, the individual work would need to be done before we could even put the possibility of reconciliation on the table.

He would not accept that and tried to push me into "either we're together or we're not" decisions. He pressured me for an answer because he could not tolerate the "limbo" state. But he never made the first step towards committing to any treatment. He was trying to get me to promise that we would get back together if he did that, and I could not and did not make that promise, and that was not what he wanted. He made a big deal about how crushing it was to hear that his wife was telling him that even if he went to treatment that the marriage may not be restored.

The closest he came to agreeing to treatment was to tell ME to find him a counselor that he could go to that would schedule appointments around his 8 to 5:30 M-F work schedule and set it up for him, and then he would go.

Kind of like how he used to expect me to wake him up for work (not an easy task by any means, it was like trying to get a teenage boy to wake up and get ready for school- except he raged at me if I failed to get him up on time without "having an attitude" or showing any frustration by the fact that he would not get up the first ten times I tried), make his breakfast and coffee, make his lunch, lay out his work clothes, make sure he did not forget his tools, get the kids ready so we could take him to work (if I needed the car, because we never had more than one vehicle) and get everyone in the car BEFORE he did so he did not have to wait on us- we had to wait on him- and then all he had to do was show up to work and clock in.

I think the whole "pathway'' idea is more or less to give him the means by which communication could be resumed... .not to promise reconciliation. And maybe that would stop the calls to MIL trying to get her to play middle man and convince me to talk to him again.

I don't think anyone who has posted on this thread expects the "pathway" to actually be taken by him. It would be just a means of communicating what would be necessary before I would even consider trying to resume even LC.

I will discuss it with counselors, but the thing that bothers me about it is his perception of it and his response to it based on history. And I don't want it to be a kind of "intermittent reinforcement", as you said.

He seems to think that MIL can sway me to feeling sorry for him, or holding on to the relationship or something along those lines. He doesn't even realize that she (if it could be said that there are "sides" here) is on my side. She is more interested in my safety than she is in seeing him get what he wants, because she knows this is the result of his behavior and treatment of me, something she has experienced firsthand, and she would never try to convince me to continue in a situation that is unsafe. Even when I was still in contact with him, she was telling me that I should not be. He doesn't know that. But she was afraid for me all along.

He doesn't trust counselors. He has contempt for psychology and does not want someone telling him what is wrong with him. He runs away from the truth and denies that it is true. He is also paranoid. His paranoia ranges from believing that any counselor he sees will use his "information" against him to believing that he will be poisoned if he is given medication.

He has also told me before that he has lied to his counselors in the past, something I already knew but he said it in a bragging way, as if he was proud that he had manipulated them, and I got the impression that he did it as a result of some type of delusional belief.

Perhaps it is the deep toxic shame that causes his aversion to mental health counseling.
It is much easier to pretend that every counselor in the world is against him rather than admit that he has issues that need to be resolved. He can only admit to the most obvious of shortcomings, and he tries to minimize those and then gets angry about how people perceive him to be a "bad guy." He thinks that he should not lose trust or relationship with anyone as a result of his actions. He thinks he should be forgiven and given endless chances, and anyone unwilling to do that or who perceives him to be unsafe is painted black.

I think he would only agree to counseling if it involved me- he tries to make this a "we" issue instead of a "uBPDh" issue, because he can't bear to shoulder the responsibility for the destructive behavior all on his own. It's much easier and more palatable to pretend that we are BOTH dysfunctional and abusive to each other... .I'm not buying into that.

Redeemed

[Cat Familiar]

I think it’s hard for anyone who hasn’t experienced a relationship with an extremely unsound partner to understand how deranged their thinking can be.

I’ll post more on this tomorrow when I’m a bit more lucid.Too sleepy now.

[Cat Familiar]

Something I became aware of, in retrospect, was how similar my ex-husband's patterns were to that of a "conman." A conman looks for signs of weakness and files away that information to utilize later. (My ex knew that my weaknesses were wanting approval and acceptance--I didn't experience much of that in my family of origin.)

Like a conman, he would sprinkle a few grains of truth into the stories he'd tell me. I'd hear things that made sense and then I wouldn't question the rest of the story.

He would get me to suspend disbelief after he had done things which were damaging to our relationship. There were times when he'd dissolve into tears and beg my forgiveness and admit that he had behaved in horrible ways. I would think that he had finally seen the light. He would tell me he'd never again do those things and I'd believe him, only to feel terribly betrayed when some time later I'd find that he was repeating the behavior, or had never stopped.

Over time, I became less and less sure of myself as I started buying into his criticisms of how damaged I was by my family. He criticized nearly everything I did, whether it was my driving, my cooking, my thinking, my weight (and I've always been skinny--but he made me think I was fat), my appearance, etc. His critical comments were relentless and I became so accustomed to being yelled at on a daily basis.

Once his mother was visiting and I was driving and I remember the horror in her eyes when he yelled at me for not parking where he thought I should park. I could see that she was ashamed that her son would behave that way toward me. That moment brought awareness to me that this was not a "normal" way that husbands should treat their wives.

I could write a book about all his infidelities, his reckless spending and financial irresponsibility, his violent attacks upon me, his substance abuse, but you get the point. He ticked all those boxes.

I often hear people talk about women who remain in abusive relationships--"Why doesn't she leave him?" I can speak to that question from experience. It's because over time, my self esteem was ground down to the point where I believed that I was incapable of taking care of myself. I thought that I was so flawed that no one would ever want me. I believed that I was so damaged that my only chance in life was to stay with this man who was occasionally nice to me because that was the best I'd ever get.

Years later as I think of the young woman I was then, I don't believe that my ex-husband had some master plan to try and take me down to boost his own ego. I don't believe that he was a conman per se. I think that he was so damaged himself and that he modeled a lot of his abusive behavior on his alcoholic father, who regularly got arrested for fighting, couldn't hold onto a job, abandoned his family and died young due to alcohol addiction.

I remember what initially attracted me to my ex. It was his sweet childlike persona that was kind to animals and was so sensitive and vulnerable. I saw that part during the honeymoon phase, but it quickly disappeared and a brutish unkind man showed up in its place.

[I Am Redeemed]

Cat,

Your ex sounds incredibly similar to uBPDh... .and what's scary about that is that Harley Quinn says her ex sounds like uBPDh... .so these patterns of disturbing and deranged thinking and behavior are not unique.

I have read lots of stuff about abuse. I don't think that uBPDh had a master plan to tear down my self esteem either. I think his behavior is a product of a very distorted thought process, extremely dysfunctional means of getting his needs met, and both a disordered perception and learned belief system of what expectations to place on his SO.

In order to learn new and healthy behaviors, each of these roots would have to be located and properly addressed. That's not even taking into account the substance abuse disorder. Active using comes and goes. However, as a recovering addict myself, I can attest that alcoholism/addiction, with or without active using, can present itself with traits that resemble that of a PD or mood disorder.

Redeemed

[empath]

My h told me one time that he tells people "what they need to hear". That's how he gets in their good graces. For example, when he had his emotional crisis, he told the church where he was a minister and led worship that he quit and was going to "work on the marriage." He told his friend and fellow minister who he stayed with that he was going to divorce me (his friend was going to help him). What he told me was that he couldn't be an 'up-front' leader while he was getting a divorce from me. My poor friends who heard what he told the church and leadership were so very hopeful. I had to break the confusing news to them.

He was also told by the church that he had to do some things in order to be a minister; he did them until they approved him. Then, he stopped. At other churches, he tried to manipulate them to give him what he wanted, too. I know all this, so I'm very cautious about giving a list of things to do.

I have an email where h describes some of the things that he believes were going on; it's an interesting insight into his delusional thinking. Another insight is that he fears that there's "something really wrong" with his mental health - it's easier to project the issues onto other people. There is a deep sense of shame that keeps him from getting the help that he really needs.

In the literature about abuse, there are a few different kinds of people who abuse others. The most common one that is discussed are people who are logical and intentional about their mistreatment. I didn't find those really fit my situation; my h is more reactive and emotional.

[I Am Redeemed]

Empathy,

I have seen my h do the same thing with people. He tells different versions to highlight or omit certain details to achieve whatever his goal is with whatever person he is trying to manipulate.

He admits to having issues but tries to downplay them. MIL says he was raised by his grandparents to use excuses to get out of trouble. If you had an excuse, that made it OK. If you could explain why you did this, that or the other, and make people feel sorry for you, then consequences were lessened.

The goal was always lessened consequences... .never learning a lesson.

Redeemed

[formflier]

I have an email where h describes some of the things that he believes were going on; it's an interesting insight into his delusional thinking.   

What's the quick summary? 

FF

[empath]

I was hardly talking to him - but needed to get in the last word, not accepting responsibility, delusional and/or suffering from dementia, emotionally manipulative and co-dependent.

[I Am Redeemed]

I was hardly talking to him - but needed to get in the last word, not accepting responsibility, delusional and/or suffering from dementia, emotionally manipulative and co-dependent.

Is that what he was saying is wrong with you?

UBPDh has decided that I have NPD.

Still not reading the fb posts, but my sister did tell me he posted something about how sometimes you do so much for someone and they still turn their back on you and cut you off, and all you can do is move on. Mentioned something about a "future wife''.

All he has done for me. More like all he has done to me.

If there is a future wife... .God help her.

Redeemed

[empath]

Is that what he was saying is wrong with you?

Yes. I "need professional help". Evidently, the professionals that he has talked to have said so, too.

[I Am Redeemed]

So, I rescheduled my T appointment today. Feeling under the weather from a cold that started yesterday and I did not want to exert more energy than I had to today. I have to work all weekend.

I did go to the`dv counselor. I spent much of that time talking to the counseling supervisor about what I am working on in therapy and why I feel that I need dv counseling in addition. She said that usually they don't take on clients who already have therapists because they don't want two therapists either overlapping with clients or telling them to do different things which could be confusing. I explained the situation with my schedule and how I am not able to see my T every week, sometimes it's three weeks in between appointments because I only have one day off and she doesn't always have an appointment. I explained also that my T works with me on the depression, stress management and the substance abuse disorder (though that is in remission, but we do relapse prevention) and that I feel that I need counseling that specifically relates to domestic abuse and the resulting trauma and effects. Not that my counselor isn't qualified to do that, but she is not specially trained to work with dv victims specifically. Also I feel that the appointments being so spread out are not beneficial to me in the way that I would like regarding recovery from the trauma. The counseling supervisor agreed, and she said that if I was seeing my T once every three weeks, that she could approve for me to come every week to the dv center. She does not want me to have to choose between the two counselors and either lose my T, with whom I have built a r/s over the last 8 years, or lose the benefit of a counselor who focuses specifically on abuse and who can "fill in the gaps"  so to speak, so I will have support every week. I feel that is what I need to make any progress in recovery and she agreed.

Did not get a chance to discuss the whole "pathway" idea in detail, but they both wholeheartedly agree that I should NOT unblock uBPDh long enough to tell him that calling his mother to tell her to call me is not going to convince me to talk to him.They both said any communication from me to him would only serve as intermittent reinforcement and would not stop him from attempting to triangulate with MIL.

I pretty much expected that. I will see my T in two weeks, now, and the dv counselor again next thursday.

I am very glad that I will get the benefit of weekly counseling. I feel like I take up much of my appointment with my T just catching her up and going over questions I have that can now be addressed in dv counseling, and I can save other things like stress management and mindfulness exercises for my T without feeling like I needed another two hours to talk to her.

Redeemed

[Cat Familiar]

Awesome, Redeemed! That is perfect! You addressed the situation really well and you will be able to utilize your counseling time to get the maximum benefits. 

[empath]

Redeemed, that sounds great with the dv counseling between your normal therapy. Having the support of someone who is specifically trained is important right now.

[formflier]

Solids work IAR

There is no rush on the "pathway" thing.  And... remember.  They are the experts.  Especially about things like intermittent reinforcement... etc etc.

I would like you to chat with them about the pathway... .  It is likely they will tell you that for YOU to tell him is a bad idea... .but the point is they will explain why... so you can be solid and sure.  It may be that they don't think anyone should explain it to him... and again... .they will explain why.

Also would like you to discuss signing releases so you two Ts can talk to each other.  The concern about overlapping Ts is a valid one.  That they are focused on different subjects is good... that a supervisor is involved is good.

For them to be able to touch base with each other is good as well.

The critical thing is YOU are driving this and pushing for what you need.  They seem to be responding.  That's good news!

FF

[I Am Redeemed]

I signed a release so the counselors can communicate.

I was worried when they told me that I can't do both, but I am glad that the counseling supervisor was willing to listen and understand why I feel that I need both.

If I could see my T every week, it would be different, but that isn't a possibility. Also, I originally began seeing my T for the dual diagnosis of MDD and substance abuse disorder... .before the uBPDh r/s. The experience and effects of that r/s eventually hijacked my therapy, so that my issues no longer became the focus. The trauma and abuse became the focus, and I would like to separate that and delegate it to the dv counselor so I can do maintenance therapy for the dual diagnosis stuff with my T.

It's easy to forget about my disorders when they are in remission. (I do have some moderate depression but it is situational, not like the disparaging low state of the major depression I used to have).

Symptoms can sneak up on you, especially with the substance use disorder. Many people think that the disorder is just a problem with drugs or alcohol. The reality is that there are thought and behavior patterns associated with the disorder that still present even when the active user drinking has stopped. Obsessive compulsive behavior is one of the symptoms, as is rationalizing irrational thoughts or behavior. Also the sense of not being good enough, and the recurring deceptive thoughts of being able to use or drink with control... .just this once, it won't get out of hand this time, etc.

Very important, especially under stress, to not let my guard down on that disorder, remission or not.

Redeemed

[Harley Quinn]

This thread has reached it's maximum size limit and is now locked.  Please go ahead and begin a new topic to continue the discussion.  Thanks everyone for your participation.