Having dinner tonight at our favorite authentic Szechuan place.

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

How did it go?

Gets more complicated by the day, I shall report back when I have some final conclusion or clarity one way or the other. I did meet her at the clothing store as she wanted to buy my mother some clothing/presents, she was that moved by the meeting. It got strange-ish after that. I don't think personally this resolves until she returns home, SOMETHING is going on here in the US. All I know is meeting my mother was apparently a huge and important deal for her. I'd prefer to update in a few days/weeks/months once I have some more insight into where we are or where we were.

[1stTimer]

How did it go?

Gets more complicated by the day, I shall report back when I have some final conclusion or clarity one way or the other. I did meet her at the clothing store as she wanted to buy my mother some clothing/presents, she was that moved by the meeting. It got strange-ish after that. I don't think personally this resolves until she returns home, SOMETHING is going on here in the US. All I know is meeting my mother was apparently a huge and important deal for her. I'd prefer to update in a few days/weeks/months once I have some more insight into where we are or where we were.

[Wicker Man]

1st Timer if you put together a letter or any other sort of a gift do not be surprised if it is refused at first.  This can often go on ritually 3 times.  Have a look at this article -it is accurate from my observations.  --There can also be real refusals, but read the article so you understand the gifting culture a little better.

https://chinachange.org/2011/12/28/the-art-of-giving-and-receiving-gifts-in-china/

When I was leaving Dream Come True's family home for the first time her grandmother gave me a traditional 'Red Envelope' (I.e. gift of money).  Instead of refusing it I accepted it immediately and gave it directly to Dream Come True who was standing at my side. 

Grandmother asked why I gave it to her (breaking custom twice!)  I said "... .but I give her all my money".  Dream Come True gave the 红包  back to her grandmother... .now poor grandmother was utterly confused --Dream Come True said "... .and I give all my money to you".  It was a warm and funny culture clash ending in laughs and hugs. 

The gift would have been a hardship for her grandparents -but it was, in her mind, a cultural imperative.

Anyway read up on gift giving.  It is fascinating and educational.

As another interesting, but useless side note... .in olden times it would have been conceivable for me to cross the threshold of their family home on my knees upon first meeting her parents (except I am over 50 and an American). I asked Dream Come True about this and she said '... .you do and I will kill you... .' 

So... .as we arrived at their door I reached down to tie my shoe, I heard her quietly gasp... .  Shoe tied I stood back up and knocked on the door... .

Yep... .I am a dream date... .

What is the point of an ancient culture if you cannot us it to torture the ones you love?

Wicker Man

[1stTimer]

1st Timer if you put together a letter or any other sort of a gift do not be surprised if it is refused at first.  This can often go on ritually 3 times.  Have a look at this article -it is accurate from my observations.  --There can also be real refusals, but read the article so you understand the gifting culture a little better.


Wicker Man

Thanks WM, those are great anecdotes and great suggestions. We didn't have the gift guide when she bought my mother presents the next day. She actually asked me to meet her at Zara and find her since she was buying presents for my mother. I did my own version of 'no you shouldn't you really don't need to' but she insisted.  I did have my mother text her a very nice thank you letter. I think the girl is in love with my mother, me not so much :| I'm sort of done with this, between a) the language b) the culture c) her leaving and d) her own 'stuff' I've really sort of lost any motivation here. Most of what I loved about her was all the special qualities I don't find her a lot but as the s hits the f I'm finding it to be much of the same. I'm actually a little unclear why it was so important for her to meet my mother, why it was such a life-changing and joyous occasion and why returning to see my mother next Spring is of such utter importance to her but I'm almost ready to just let the two of them have their thing, I'm kinda done. I might just give my mother my phone and buy a new one as if I have to read one more "Mom of I love you!" I'm gonna get ill

I think I'll just stick with English speaking women from now on. It's all the same stuff whatever side of the pond you are on and why make it that much harder with language.

[once removed]

but this is only the second woman I've met where I've just been blown away by how much I LIKE her. Such an underappreciated thing.
... .
Not damn I can't wait to get her in bed or man I love her just simple and overwhelming 'Wow I LIKE her'. I think we should all hope to just fall in like more often.

I'm sort of done with this, between a) the language b) the culture c) her leaving and d) her own 'stuff' I've really sort of lost any motivation here.
... .
I think I'll just stick with English speaking women from now on. It's all the same stuff whatever side of the pond you are on and why make it that much harder with language.

these are two extremes, 1stT.

on november 2nd, she was inviting you to get food, and stay in her home.

since then, shes bonded with your mother quite a bit. is this a point of contention?

[1stTimer]

these are two extremes, 1stT.

on november 2nd, she was inviting you to get food, and stay in her home.

since then, shes bonded with your mother quite a bit. is this a point of contention?

I could not really do what went on is going any any justice Once Removed. The extremes are not mine they are hers. It is like two different people and there is either a major PD issue or a huge 'thing' I am not being told. And she is quite good as her NYC Taxi drivers at not understanding Enlgish when she does not wish to.  Dinner was a farce which she acted clueless about and no amount of language or culture could explain or excuse. I won't bore you with the whole thing, one prime example is 1/2 through she called an Uber and then I followed her out (furrrrious at this point) and she said "Ok see you next year!'" as if she had just disposed with some distatesful obligation as opposed to a dinner she invited me to after a truly beautiful evening where I gave her what she wanted so badly and I... .walked away. Yeah I know some people here will criticize this but they were not at this dinner, one I did not ask for or expect, one I was invited to with you "tomorrow I invite you to 'our' restaurant just you and me  Also I so look forward to you coming to be with me in my home in Chengdu". It was our first time alone in 5 weeks (her doing, 5 weeks together she kaboshed) and our last dinner together for who knows how many months. And yes yes yes I get all those things play into her dynamic but guess what? I'm a grown adult male, she is a grown middle-aged lady who was married, has a grown child, travelled the world and runs 3 busineses. She can figure out how to deal with the emotions and fear and pain and treat me with respect and care and even love as much as I could dealing with the same emotions if not more.

We tried to discuss it (the night she was at her going away party I was not invited to) and she said "I knew you were unhappy but did not know why [BS] but I don't have enough English because of our language barrier". So I asked if she had enough English to say all that where was the Enlgish to say "You seemed unhappy please tell me why". This is where the whole 'Sorry My Enlglish very bad" is BS. I gave her finally some "Look is it 1) bla bla or 2) yada ydada" so we could just get to it. Answer "No". Because I can never get to a real answer. Then "I don't have enough English to explain my thoughts". I didn't point out that not inviting me to her going away party IS a thought and inviting me 1/2 dozen times with love in her eyes to come LIVE with her is another but I digress. Her 'excuse' was that she had to go pick up clients/business (not sure, she sent me some pic of Holiday Inn) and went to Flushing so her friends could drive her. I asked how I could possibly have known that if she didn't say 'look baby I'm so happy to see you and can't wait for you to come see me [or maybe invite me to the damn going away party the next night] but I have to go pick up my clients' and instead just called an uber with 1/2 the meal on the table and then said 'see you next year'. I don't buy it. And if I do buy it is still extaordinarily rude from a person who is part of a culture where politeness is the cornerstone of relationships.

I  simply said "Look I don't want to say the right thing and have it understood as the wrong thing because these texts are not helping us. May I contact your friend to speak with us?"

No reply.

I then sent my mother's thank you note. Originally my mother wanted to RETURN her gifts based on the way she had acted to me at dinner as my mother felt quite manipulated and decieved at dinner. I convinced her, no, this girl is not like that. Please do not return the gifts it will be a grave insult. So she asked me send a nice thank you not via text which I did.

Suddenly the girl can talk and reply. 8 replies over 6 hours. My phone kept buzzing with texts until 1 am man. How much she loves my mom (4x she says this). How HER words moved her to tears. How much she loves her, how kind she is, how she is going home but wants to come back and see her as soon as she returns. Some note to me on how she'll see me too when she returns (not). Some reference, since my mother started out with "I know you and my son are having difficult conversations but I wanted to interject long enough to say thank you bla bla bla", with "I will deal with the problems between us together with your son!". No idea if that is supposed to mean she will engage my mother to deal with the problems or she means don't worry we will work it out. I do not really care. I've been on hold in a box for 6 weeks understanding. I addressed every issue; will I come to her? will I wait for her? will I be faithful to her? do I care she is 54? do I think she is beautiful? where do I live? who is my mother? will she live where I live and how I live and like my mother?  Yet trying to get a straight answer even with a translator is impossible and since I've done her every honor I believe the simple truth would be an honor I would be due. I don't really give a *** anymore about her 'situation', I have my own and I'm not the only person who needs to understand and 'validate'.

The invitations to come be with her seem absolutely real and to be her heart's desire. The "You come to me in Chengdu" in my kitchen more than any since it was the acknowledgment to 'You introduced me to your mother and your life. I am ready now. You come to live with me".

I'm an American Male, if I invited a woman to come live with me for two months it would mean quite a bit. She is a divorced Chinese female it means quite a bit more. Yet I am not at all comfortable anymore flying 1/2 around the world to the  middle of a 4 million square mile country where I know 4 words and 1 person if I don't trust that person to be honest with me and I don't trust her emotional stability and I don't trust her to have any ability to grasp the impact of her behavior on me. Because I'll be in a world of trouble if I do.

I have no idea why she loves my mother so much or meeting her was of such importance to her and why it brought her such great happiness. My mother is not Hillary Clinton or J-Lo or anyone famous. She has one distinction (to this girl); she is MY mother.  If it brought tears of joy to her eyes to have met her, if it made her touch her heart then mine, if it led to another 6 invitations to be with her, if I got 6 texts saying "Tonight I am so happy" then nothing else that followed made sense. There is a massive contradiction here and it is either a) she is full of s*** bat crazy or b) she is lying about something huge or to be kind not telling me something huge. I've opened my heart and life bare to her long enough for her to do me the kindness of sharing that with me instead of putting me in a box for 6 weeks while telling me 'nothing is wrong' and 'you come to me in Chengdu'.

She doesn't even know my mother did NOT want her in her house based on her behavior to me and DID want to return her gifts.

I get part that part of those long texts to my mother were likely for me since she can't say those things to me. I get even her great affection to her is as well, she had never met my mother before and spent a grand total of 3 hours with her. She didn't make love to my mother and certainly my mother didn't 'treat her with care and respect no one ever has before'.

In any event she leaves on Thursday and it is highly doubtful I will fly to see her without some major revelations, disclosures, communications.

My only last 'play' is I reached out to her friend (the son of her best friend who translated and said that the dinner was 'the most wonderful time I've ever had in the States') to see if we can speak. My plan is to say 'look I don't know what is happening here. If XL really wants the things she says she does, I need to ask you what is going on and/or how to proceed, because honestly the way this is being handled makes me want to close the door. I don't want to close the door. So if you know she does not either, please help me to communicate or understand so I can keep the door open'. Something like that.  If he says no I doubt I will reach out to her and if she reaches out to me at this point my hearts is at least 50% closed to her. I don't have to have a relationship on someone else's terms and timeframe while I stay in a box without a shred of information. Was she scared/ Was she in fact seeing someone else? Is her marriage in fact not over? Did her elders disapprove? Did she lose her attraction to me? I have no idea because I've been told since October 2nd 'nothing is wrong between us' yet Saturday was the first time she agreed (offered/invited) me to be alone on a date with her since September 26th. And I was still not invited to her going away party. And she acted beyond weird at that dinner. So yeah, something is wrong. And if she wants to fly away without ever telling me then there is no way I'm flying there to "be with her in her home in beautiful Chengdu".

[Skip]

Can you explain the evening without the interpretations of her actions and your feelings. Can you give a third party clinical reporting or newspaper reporting of the event? It 's hard to follow what happened vs how you feel.

What time did you get together? What did she talk about? How long where you there? Did you order full meals, drinks, etc. Who paid, etc... .

[1stTimer]

Can you explain the evening without the interpretations of her actions and your feelings. Can you give a third party clinical reporting or newspaper reporting of the event? It 's hard to follow what happened vs how you feel.

What time did you get together? What did she talk about? How long where you there? Did you order full meals, drinks, etc. Who paid, etc... .

Not sure what really matters except my feelings. I'm sure people can analyze or interpret events having not been there and come to some conclusion other than what happened to me. My point being that I was there and what I saw and heard and felt is valid and reflective of what happened and the clinical events might not do that the slightest bit of justice. However I'll do so below:

Events:
5:00 She texted can you come to Flushing (where she is staying now) for dinner. I did not see it

5:45 I am on my way to Manhattan (she sent pics of 5th Avenue)

5:46 Me: Ok do you want me to meet you at the restaurant early then?

5:50 Her: No, find me at Zara's I am buying your mother presents

6:15 or so I show up, she is trying in clothes, seems happy to see me. She wants me to exchange an item or two

6:20 We are walking on 5th Avenue, fall leaves are streaming down around us, we are on our way to our last dinner together for months and first in weeks. I turned to her and said something I practiced for 1/2 an hour in Chinese, in answer to her endless 'Will you miss me when I am in Chengdu?': "I will miss you so much when you are in Chendu". In Chinese. Perfect delivery. Her: "Oh yes, good pronunciation". No tears, no emotion, no reciprocation. No it was not 'premature' I'm having my last dinner with a girl who just gushed about her happiness at meeting my mother and invited me 1/2 dozen times in the last 12 hours to come live with her, who touched her heart than mine the night before.

We walk to the restaurant, I feel like I'm being walked to the slaughterhouse.

6:30 We sit down, order the whole fish which is this amazing dish with some flat fish in a stew with vegetables on a burner that a couple then picks from. No words from her. I say it is so good to see you again "Yes". Silence. She for some reason asks for my full name again and says someone wants to invite me to something, not sure. Weird. I'm sitting back now wondering What the heck I am here for. I didn't invite her on a date she didn't want to be on.

6:40 or so: She'll occasionally look up and make eye contact but rarely. I say "So when is that going away party XL?" She says "Oh tomorrow night". Silence. No invite. Ok. I decide to try again "I really will miss you" (yeah I get it but now I'm probing) "Yes". Silence.

6:50 or so: 1/2 the meal left, she picks up her phone and starts talking, puts on LIP GLOSS and says "ok uber coming". I text "Should I just leave?" Ignores it.

6:55 We walk outside and she turns to me and says "Okidoki see you next year! I come back then, see you next year!" I look at her and turn around and walk away. Furious but don't want her to see the ___ing tears streaming down my face.

Now I get that someone can read this and say "You never should have said anything and kept it light and talked about the Knicks or how good the fish was". But that isn't fair to me. Or us. I didn't ask for this meal. I thought the night before had been our swan song before we left. I didn't ask for a thing I just said goodbye and left the amazing energy and revelations we had to simmer. SHE asked ME out "just you and me!  And I so welcome you to my home in Chengdu!". I believe after everything that happened, if meeting my mother was so momentous and joyful and reaffiremd her desire for me to come LIVE IN HER HOME and touch each other's hearts and invite me out 'just you and me!" for the last dinner we'll have in God knows how long I could treat it as more than a lunch with my aunt I have nothing to say to vs one where a woman I have made love to is leaving for 1/2 a year at least. It was a going away dinner clearly it turned into what felt to me like some obligation she was dispensing with and then dispensing with me ("Ok see you next year!").

I expected a text "Why did you leave? What did I do?" even though only a completely self-involved fool could not have understood what happened. Her excuse the next night "I had business I had to take care of for clients, I had to go to Flushing to get driven to the airport" is BS whether it is true or not. Except I did NOT get a text like that even though she later said "I saw you were unhappy but did not know why and my English makes it hard because of the language barrier". Seems syntaxically harder than "Why where you upset?" even if the text itself is disingenouos.

If she ran because I said "I'll miss you" or because it was revealed I wasn't invited to the going away party I don't care. She came to meet my mother knowing, whatever she really feels, that I love her and made it clear how much it meant to HER and that she wants me to come be with her.

I didn't show up with flowers or any over the top gesture, I didn't grab her in my arms and kiss her, I didn't try to hold her hand or do anything to move "too fast" (if you can do that with a woman who just met your mother and invited you to live with her). In fact my mother wanted me to give her a flower from her and I said "No sorry, the flowers last time made her uncomfortable, if she sees me with a flower even if it is from you it will just trigger that memory. I don't want to make her uncomfortable".

There is some great great great conflict in her. There is some great mystery I am not privy to. Yet no one can tell me I should have just gone to dinner, slurped a whole fish in silence with this woman on this occasion and then said to her 1/2 through an aborted meal "Ok sounds good see you next year!" as if nothing had ever happened.

And for some reason she can't understand or reply to my texts but to my mothers she is suddenly eloquent (in her own grammatically incorrect way), effusive, full of love and acknowledgment "I am so happy you love me I love you too. You are so perfect and so kind to me! I love you!"  Not just the first reply, the texts just kept rolling in. If I were a lay psychologist I'd say she was saying to my mother what she couldn't say to me but that is more wishful thinking than anything.

[1stTimer]

Not sure what really matters except my feelings. I'm sure people can analyze or interpret events having not been there and come to some conclusion other than what happened to me. My point being that I was there and what I saw and heard and felt is valid and reflective of what happened and the clinical events might not do that the slightest bit of justice. However I'll do so below:

Clarifying this so it is not interpreted as being 'non-collegial'; my point is/was that I didn't post the step by step events because they don't really seem to me to be relevant or even reflective of what I experienced and the details couldn't possibly do justice to the emotional impact of what happened or the reality of her behavior. No aspersions were meant to anyone replying.

[Skip]

I think writing down the clinical / newspaper version of story, in addition to the emotional one, will help you,1T.

[Skip]

My only last 'play' is, I reached out to her friend (the son of her best friend who translated and said that the dinner was 'the most wonderful time I've ever had in the States') to see if we can speak. My plan is to say 'look I don't know what is happening here. If XL really wants the things she says she does, I need to ask you what is going on and/or how to proceed, because honestly the way this is being handled makes me want to close the door. I don't want to close the door. So if you know she does not either, please help me to communicate or understand so I can keep the door open'.

Something like that.  

Are you contemplating putting this younger person in the middle and seeking advice on what to do from him (or, indirectly from her)?

How well did it work last time you two had a translator and tried to sort out the disconnect?

What did she buy your mom? Will it be delivered?

[1stTimer]

I think writing down the clinical / newspaper version of story, in addition to the emotional one, will help you,1T.

Events:
5:00 She texted can you come to Flushing (where she is staying now) for dinner. I did not see it

5:45 I am on my way to Manhattan (she sent pics of 5th Avenue)

5:46 Me: Ok do you want me to meet you at the restaurant early then?

5:50 Her: No, find me at Zara's I am buying your mother presents

6:15 or so I show up, she is trying in clothes, seems happy to see me. She wants me to exchange an item or two

6:20 We are walking on 5th Avenue. I say in Chinse, which I practiced for 1/2 an hour "I will miss you so much when you are in Chendu" because she would always ask me 'Will you miss me when I am in Chengdu?". She replies something about how good my pronunciation is.

We walk to the restaurant, she is about 2 feet away from me.

We order the food. It is pretty silent. I say how nice it is to see her again. She says "Yes".

She'll occasionally look up and make eye contact but rarely. I say "So when is that going away party XL?" She says "Oh tomorrow night". Silence.

I decide to try again to see if I'm imagining things or not "I really will miss you". Yes

She asks me again for my full name with some implication her friends want to invite me to something. I assume if is her party. I give it to her.

She picks up her phone and starts taking in Chinese using the stores business card and finally puts it down and says she called Uber. I say now? She says "later". Which means in a few minutes I know by now. I 1/2 hope she is setting up some event with friends since it she just asked for my name and mentioned her friends inviting me somehwere. I say so "you go home?"... She says "I no have home anymore I have friends, you go home, I go flushing". She puts on lip gloss and takes out some hand cleaner. She smiles at me. I have no real facial expression I can share at this point.

Phone rings she says oh that is uber. We leave.

She says oh they are not here yet I say well I'm sure they will be. She turns to me with some weird smile and says "Ok well see you next year!". We are five feet apart. I say "See you next year?" She says again "Yes see you next year". I say "Goodnight". She says "Goodnight?

And I walked away.

****
That is clinical. Noting to be gleaned unless one wants to say I should have said and done nothing and just picked up from her lack of reply to "I'll miss you so much" to just sit and pick at fish until she decided she'd put in enough time and could leave.  Should I have done that until she left and then decided one day to extend the invite to Chengdu? I'd never have gone. Should I have waited for her to come back and decide I was still available? Should I have sat and waited for interminable minutes dissecting a flatfish in silence hoping for an invitation to her party, a word of affection or a 'Dear John'? Nothing was forthcoming. She was putting in her 20 minutes and going home.  I'm not the heavy here. I didn't miss clues and act inappropriately or come on too hard. The woman was having a going away dinner with me and me alone that she set-up that never had to happen and was never asked for and was in fact a huge happy surprise she dumped on me the night before after she kept thanking me effusively for meeting my mother, how happy that made her, how much she wanted me to come be with her in her home in Chengdu. What is astonishing to me is she is astonished I was hurt or upset. Which means this is NORMAL behavior for her.

[Wicker Man]

No aspersions were meant to anyone replying.

I thrive on aspersion!  I am sorry you had a rough dinner.  Who knows what the future will bring -perhaps take a wait and see attitude if you are able.  -if she writes you from China great... .If not fine.  

As far as her English coming and going -believe me that happens.  I can direct the hell out of a cab, run my crew on set, order dinner and do a lot of other things in Mandarin -but when I get lost in a conversation I get good and lost.  

There is a really good chance she was not sandbagging on language -it does come and go.  Her repeating things over and over may come from her limited vocabulary.  Lost in translation is a real thing.  I tended to use the same phrases over and over -because I knew they worked, it is how one lays a foundation in a new language.  Same thing when for me when I was in Germany -it is not unique to Mandarin.

In my experience, when communication is limited,  projection and displacement are even more extreme when when compared to a relationship in a common language.  In other words, it is quite easy for misunderstandings on emotional issues.  We fill in the blanks with our beliefs and wishes.

If you don't mind I will repeat myself -take it slow.  In this case I mean take a breath.  Accept this Summer as an experience.  It is unique and quite cool when you step back and think about it -you got a view of a different culture (for better or worse) and at times you seemed quite happy.  

Emotions color our perception and our perception is our reality in the moment  -inescapable.  

One cannot know what sort of emotional maelstrom she may have been experiencing last night --She has a lot going on right now as do you.  Who knows how business oriented the going away party might be.  I can think of plenty of reasons a new friend might not be an appropriate guest.

The evening did not go as you had hoped -but don't throw baby out with the bath water.  

We are all here on BPD Family ostensibly because we had been in a relationship with someone who had binary thinking -try to step out of this.  Healthy life is shades of grey -not black and white.

Wicker Man

[1stTimer]

I thrive on aspersion!  I am sorry you had a rough dinner.  Who knows what the future will bring -perhaps take a wait and see attitude if you are able.  -if she writes you from China great... .If not fine.  

But it is not fine if she writes me from China. The last 6 weeks have not reflected any of the behavior I'd expect from a lover, a wife or a friend. I don't trust her emotional honesty.

As far as her English coming and going -believe me that happens.  I can direct the hell out of a cab, run my crew on set, order dinner and do a lot of other things in Mandarin -but when I get lost in a conversation I get good and lost.  

I get it. But this is her not being able to communicate a lick of affection or even reply to me and then spending 4 hours sending my mother endless long texts about how much she loves her, how she was so good to her, how she hopes to continue her relationship etc. She got the nuance of my mother saying "I know you and my son are having difficult conversations" and worked it into the conversation as well, she simply ignored any part of my prior texts. So she CAN undrestand and can formulate, even imperfect, her replies and deep emotions. As she used to for me.
. 

One cannot know what sort of emotional maelstrom she may have been experiencing last night --She has a lot going on right now as do you.  Who knows how business oriented the going away party might be.  I can think of plenty of reasons a new friend might not be an appropriate guest

.
Right, None of which precludes with her google/wechat at her side saying "Yes I have the party tomorrow night please do not be offended but I cannot invite you due to business colleagues". I'm not the only adult here and can't be the only one trying to figure out where the other person is coming from, how they might feel and how my actions might affect them. Who wants that relationship? She's not 14; she knew she was having a dinner with a man who is in love with her who she may or may not be in love with as well whom she just made a grand gesture of meeting his mother and invited to live with her. Language or not she understands the import of all that and sitting like a log and cutting out 1/2 through the meal doesn't say anything good about her. Heck I could have too, it was fraught with emotion. I GUARANTEE you if I'd called an Uber ten minutes before her and said "ok see ya!" she would have been crushed AND I would have understood why.

The evening did not go as you had hoped -but don't throw baby out with the bath water.  

I'm saying there may be no baby.

[1stTimer]

Are you contemplating putting this younger person in the middle and seeking advice on what to do from him (or, indirectly from her)?

How well did it work last time you two had a translator and tried to sort out the disconnect?

What did she buy your mom? Will it be delivered?

It is the same young man. The one who is the son of her best friend. He translated at our reconnection and expressed her concerns (other women, her age, hadn't met my mother) and then when I invited her to dinner she asked him to come as well. He is the one who said 'the most wonderful time since I've been in the states'. I have him on weChat because SHE asked for us to connect on weChat. I reached out yesterday before all this so that I could possibly find out more about what I am not getting but also (at that point) to see if he could help me communicate in a way she would NOT misunderstand since the texts are a minefield (and one which she is adept at traversing through when she wants).

I'd say he did a pretty good job, our energy soared and she accepted an invitation to meet my mother. Whatever they said in the car after as well as I got the amazing text from him and the 1/2 dozen "I am so happy tonight" and "I welcome you to come to me in Chengdu!".

She bought my mom two simple sweaters from Zara on 5th Avenue, she had me meet her and gave me the bag and asked me to give it to my mother. My mother was as taken aback by the schezuan dinner as I was and wanted to return the gifts to Zara and make sure she knew we did I said please don't do that. She was upset as she also had not wanted the woman in her home after hearing my pain and confusion for 30 days and I assured her the woman was the real deal and not FOS.

[Skip]

I reached out yesterday [to her friend's son] before all this so that I could possibly find out more about what I am not getting but also (at that point) to see if he could help me communicate in a way she would NOT misunderstand... .

You asked for advice before going to dinner with her?  What did he say?

[1stTimer]

No sorry, did not think I needed advice before dinner. Things were beautiful before dinner.

When we had our text exchanges after the break-down and her last reply (at her going away party) was "I don't have enough English to express my ideas" I backed off and texted the next day "I do not want to say the right thing the wrong way. May I reach out to T to help me? I don't want to send long English texts you may misunderstand."

I am not sure if she saw that however because my mother's thank you text followed mine and she was all over that like, sorry, white on rice for the next 4 hours.

So I then reached out to her friend (last night) whose weChat I have (again because she insisted) to see if we could talk (no details). He replied very nicely that he was in the middle of a group school project (grad school) and if it were an emergency he'd break away, otherewise can we meet tomorrow and I said tomorrow is fine no worries and good luck and thanks. So far no follow-up ;could be she said no don't or he is just busy with Grad School (what are the odds)

Honestly wished she'd just left the good mother's dinner alone, flew home and picked up where we left off. She simply cannot know her behavior was off. Now instead of this amazing energy to fly home with we have this. And no, if I'd said or done nothing it would still be the same (other than my not walking off) since we'd have eaten in silence, I'd have swallowed the "See you next year" and she'd have left happy and I'd have left feeling exactly the way I do now. Which is how the entire month of October went. Not the relationship I want.

[1stTimer]

This btw was her last of about 8 texts to my mother over about 5 HOURS. She could not stop thinking of new things to say and replying.

"Thank you very much for liking me, I also like you so! I need to go back to China for some time now because of business affairs! But I will continue to come to New York next year! I'll see you! You are a perfect lady! I like you because you are very friendly! I love of mom! I will deal with the problems between us together with your son! Good luck to you!
Love
C"

She knows this is my phone, not my mothers. These just kept coming in in 20-30 minute intervals after my "mother" texted her. I can't imagine she is not somehow speaking to me in the way she can't speak to me. I'm assuming her comment about me means "I will work out my problems with your son!" but it could just mean she has first class seats and likes champagne at this point.

[Skip]

So I then reached out to her friend (last night) whose weChat I have (again because she insisted) to see if we could talk (no details). He replied very nicely that he was in the middle of a group school project (grad school) and if it were an emergency he'd break away, otherwise can we meet tomorrow and I said tomorrow is fine no worries and good luck and thanks. So far no follow-up.

Are you going to try to make this contact?  Or let it go?

[1stTimer]

Are you going to try to make this contact?  Or let it go?

If he reaches out. I'm 50/50 of the opinion that he reached out to her to let her know I reached out to him and she said don't speak to him. Otherwise, I won't reach out to him again no. And I won't reach out to her no. I've reached out. I've given her everything she asked for and I gave her space. I gave her beautiful letters giving her what she asked for and sat and addressed each of her concerns. I introduced her to my mother and made it a beautiful life. I've still not gotten as far as I am concerned a lick of honesty.  October isn't explained by 'busy' any more than it is by worried-you-will-cheat-when-I-am-gone-worried-I-am-too-old-didn't-meet-your-mother-don't-know-where-you-live and clearly it wasn't worried-you-wont-follow-worried-you-won't-wait.  Saturday dinner is not explained by had-clients-I-had-to-pick-up. I'm not sure of her issue but I don't like it because it does not seem truly caring of other people or where THEY may be.

I don't think she is able to express romantic emotions directly, this is why all of the effusive declarations of how amazing I am/treat her came from all her friends and why she can emote to my mother and through my mother but not me and can't reply to "I will miss you so much".  She had no problem replying to my mother's very simple thank you "I was so moved when I saw the letter you wrote me" or "You sent me those words, I finished crying". I've sent her two beautiful letters to this woman I've made love to and apparently has not in her 54 years on this earth been treated the way I do and not once did she say she was moved, or she cried. But a thank you letter from a woman whose only distinction to her is she IS my mother who she spent 3 hours with makes her cry and moves her. I've stood with leaves falling around our heads during the last hours we will see each other for months and the first time we have seen each other in weeks to this woman that touched her heart the night before and invited me to come to her and live in her home and said  saying Wǒ huì hěn xiǎng nǐ (I will miss you so much) without a blip in the richter scale.

My guess is she reaches out from Chengdu. Clearly from her 'See you next year!' the Chengdu is never happening. Not a snowball's chance I wait or keep my heart open for her until the summer.

[Wicker Man]

1st Timer

You have boots on the ground -but one thing which occurred to me was the going away party might be adding a lot of pressure to your (the two of you) dynamic.  Perhaps she could not invite you since she is still in business with her ex-husband.  Who knows. 

If this is the case she would have been in a double bind -she loses face with you because she cannot invite you.  She might have been unleash holy hell on herself business wise if she did invite you.

Dream Come True only told her boss about 'us' when she was raging at him -they had been lovers.   I let it be -because his learning about us would likely have endangered her livelihood.

Perhaps you should let things cool off and see what happens.  I would not write anything to her when you are upset.  Do not add energy to a deviant system... .  Let things cool off and reassess.

None of this is easy. 

Wicker Man

Well... .I am off to see my therapist... .In other words take everything I have to say with a grain of salt -I am, in psychological jargon, a coping model... .

[1stTimer]

 Hi WM, thanks. I do think she had business people at the party because the reason she left she sai was to 'pick up business' and she texted picture of The Holiday Inn.  Then she said  "Last night I arranged the business people from Chin and then had dinner with them. I took them to the hotel. Now I pick them up and go to Chinatown!... bla bla".  Chinatown would mean that day for her party I guess. And yes she still is in business with her husband.

If this were just her GAP it would not be such an issue. I'd 'get' we had issues in October and juggling me back in might be hard. I'd have let that go. I'm not trying to make this whole thing about that.

It was her entire distant 'let's just get this over with' and calling an uber 1/2 through 'see you next year' and not replying to "I will miss you so much that hurt".

I GET something else was going on because she was ASTONISHED at my response

'why ? ? ?'

But damn man, I can't sit here and figure everything out. If she is now caught between arranging a party where her ex hubbie or ex hubbie business partners might be she can't invite me to and has to pick them up as well then either a) don't invite me out or b) freaking communicate to me. We have weChat. We translate all the time ("You tell me, I tell you").  There isn't a culture in the world where it is cool to just call an uber before the meal is done and everyone at the table is done let alone a freaking goodbye dinner without explaining to the other guest(s).

I get she may have been in some untenable position; limited time to say good bye to me, possibly as bereft as I at parting, overwhelmed as I was at the connection of the night before, hoping I wouldn't ask about the party, knowing (maybe) her ex was in town, getting a text she had to leave now, not sure how to say goodbye in the street. I get it. I'm just sitting on the outside having, finally, a dinner alone for the first time in 5 weeks with the woman I love who invited me (along with yet another invitation to be with her) who doesn't seem to want to look in my eyes, tell me she misses me, really even talk, bolts out with 1/2 the meal done and say 'okidoki see you next year'.

Certainly with some distance if I can see all that she can see what happened to me?

I get the endless "You come to me in Chengdu' during October has meant basically "I can't be with you here there is too much in the way. Come to me where I can be with you".

I'm hoping The Kid gets back to me and I can just address this one sit-down. It is why I said to her "I really don't want to reply with the right words the wrong way can I wait for T"

We shall see. I'm trying Ringo, I'm trying really hard.

[Skip]

How was she when you met the other night? Was she icey from the beginning or did that happen at some point?

It sounds like your demeanor changed significantly after your "Chinese" gesture. Is that correct?

[1stTimer]

How was she when you met the other night? Was she icey from the beginning or did that happen at some point?
It sounds like your demeanor changed significantly after your "Chinese" gesture. Is that correct?

She wasn't icey. And no I don't think that was it as it is highly unlikely to me, knowing her, that speaking to her in Chinese (which almost literally melts her, I have voice texts from her pratically purring in thanks just for saying Nihao <ChineseName>) would make her cold/uncomfortable.  She loved when I spoke to her friends at dinner with 'proper' thanks/please/hello/you're welcome and sometimes would ask me to show her friends how I greeted her.

I don't think it was the word per se either.

I think as I look back on it she already knew she had (possibly unexpectedly) to pick up Chinese business associates and, likely as Wicker Man suggested, they had some relation to her ex-husband who she is in business with back in China. I think she was caught between that, knowing she couldn't invite me even if I brought it up, knowing our time was limited, the overwhelming feelings/connection from the night before and her own clear difficulty dealing with real romantic feelings. This is why she can say to my mother "your letter moved me" or "your words made me cry" but not me, why it is her friends who all tell me how amazed she is by how I treat her and how much I mean to her. I'm assuming she was likely in a loveless/sexless marriage.

In any event. No I don't think anything I did changed her behavior or made her leave. I think bringing up the going away party probably made her feel quite awkward. She has been able to say "I miss your" or "I will miss you" and even "Will you miss me" when her departure was days or weeks away. I think sitting there with me with minutes left she could not handle it. I don't think she could handle a teary sentimental goodbye either thus her sort of comical "ok see you next year!".

This explains a lot including her utter shock at my own pain and reaction.

This is why I need The Kid. Because none of the complexities above could possibly be discussed via text and google translate.

My mother, who is an astute judge of character (she loved this girl before she met her from one conversation I shared) believes, not just from what I have shared with her but her dinner with her that her feelings for me were and are quite genuine and that part of her behavior that night was from her being overwhelmed with feelings and grief at parting.

I keep forgetting too that, even with the sparsity of my dating recently, I have been in the dating world the whole time she was married. Who knows the last time, if ever, she had to part from someone she was in love with who clearly loved and cared for her so much back.

I really need The Kid... .

[1stTimer]

She wasn't icey.

Sorry meant to clarify here and got distracted. I meant she wasn't like arms folded angry ice-queen. She was... .nervous? Preoccupied? Distracted? Guilty is not a good summary but something like that. I mean my whole inner-voice was saying "What the heck is going on".  So I don't think she was mad at me and I don't think that she did not want me to say "I miss you" etc but there was a lot going on inside there I realize in retrospect. The face I won't ever forget is her on the street saying 'Ok see you next year!". It was almost clownish and I realize looking back at that she was hoping not to cry. Ah F man.

[Skip]

I'm hoping The Kid gets back to me... .

I would stay away from this - you asked for her approval and she was silent... .that's a polite no. I'd tread lightly here for a lot of reasons.  Show impeccable character.  Always best when courting. Especially a traditional courtship. Courting is about seeing who each other are in various situations.

What is it that you don't know?  The two of you are on the same page in one sense, and not on the same page in others. And you are not finding it easy to work through this because of language. Isn't this the crux of it - sans all the finite details.

I know alternative narratives trouble you, but consider something like this... .

She has shown you that work/school comes first. She has shown you that integrating family and friends are very important to her. She has shown you serious interest by inviting you to meet her friends, visiting your family, and inviting you to meet hers. She appears to have a more pragmatic (less romantic) long view of the relationship and has expectations that anything meaningful will need to succeed on several levels and over time (language skills, family involvement). She has shown you that she can communicate the basics, clearly - and handles conflict by silence.

You have shown her a lot of attention and gone out of your way to express your feelings/commitment for her and that the relationship intensity and physical closeness that you had at the beginning is a priority and very important to you. And that "time" has been a concern (we only have a few days left). You have shown your frustration and willingness to walk away because the current tempo is intolerable to you.

Right now, there is intent to explore further (by both of you) on one level and shutdowness by both of you on another. She is working on going through the pragmatic steps of courtship and deciding if this is a relationship she wants - and she is on a slow burn (time is not a factor) to find out. You are seeking intimate connection/romance and time is a factor.

This is a big value difference.

And from the outside looking in... . 

she seems to be at an earlier stage of relationship and assessment this relationship (she is evaluating); you seem to be more ready to call it love and might even propose if she was receptive (but you would also wait as long as the emotional love is flowing.

The two you two have no way to have this intimate conversation about values and needs - which she has expresses as a concern. She may not want to be in a relationship where there is no communication. It's not everyone's cup of tea. There is a lot still to consider - not the least of which is how long before she can have a meaningful conversation with you. Chinese to English is a lot harder than French to English - its takes time to get to fluency.

One thing I think that helps is to seek a narrative that explains all the actions.

She sounds honest and of good character. She is traditional. She is practical. She is strong.  

Do you see a person emotionally overwhelmed and needing to hide from her own feelings? You don't describe her actions that way. If she was overwrought, she could express that just as easily as she expressed her positive feeling to your mom.

Or do you see a driven and professional women who has a lot going and is over-committed to many objectives. To her the relationship is on the third rung of the ladder - connecting with you - then friends - then your family... .Will it go the next step for you to visit her and meet her family? That sounds possible, but not certain. Is there more?  Depends on how things workout in each proceeding rung.

The future here is not at all "American conventional" and she sounds like she is in a "courting/lets see what we have here" mode?  Can you live with that?  Can you recognize the importance in that scenario of not pushing anything on "the kid"?

I don't know what the next step is. I'd encourage you to talk it out with members rather than "go on instinct".

Remember earlier we talked about making that last meeting a fun time (keep it light) and give a gift? Go out on a high note - she'll be back in 60-80 days. Despite feeling shut down and not knowing a quick fix right now, didn't that seem like her approach in the end?

You're past that now, but get help on the next move.  It's not over until its over... .

Wickerman has some good thoughts... .

[1stTimer]

  Skip

Some of what you say makes sense, some I differ on.  

For instance, I don't know if she saw The Kid text because the much longer Thank You From Mom came in and clearly overwhelmed her. Since I did reach out to him and he did say he'd see me, if he does I'll see him. If he does not reply back I'll assume he reached out to her and she nixed it.

I do see a woman who has MUCH trouble expressing romantic feelings and especially in person. She has clearly not had much experience with that in likely decades.

I don't agree on being 'earlier' either; she has pushed Chengdu for months and there is no way inviting a man to live with you in your apartment is a casual or common thing and it is clearly a desire foremost in her mind for many weeks. It has been a consistent part of her 'wooing' and it is always what she returns to and most especially when I express uncertainty.

So I don't think she is in 'wait and see' at all. I personally think she is/was in 'this just can't work for various reasons in NY' but wants very much for it to work on her terms in her home.

So I am in a 'if the kid returns my call' mode and not in a "I'll push the kid mode". If he does not my  choices are to wait for her to reach out or to try to craft some text/letter that will address that day. To me the latter is just fraught with danger given the immense possibility of miscommunication via google translator and while she is 7,500 miles away.

So, ultimately, yes, ball is in her court. I'm unclear where we stand right now with Chengdu being a reality, I guess we'll find out soon.

NONE of this changes my discomfort with many things that happened; the pull-back in October with the 'nothing is wrong' was decidedly uncool (it was a real life version of a facebook block), there were clearly things she did not tell me while telling me all was cool, and whatever was going on on Saturday dinner I deserved far more communication and consideration and the fact she was CLUELESS about that is extremely worrisome.  If you REALLY don't know calling for an Uber 1/2 through dinner because you have plans you didn't convey is not cool and during such an important dinner to boot, that speaks volumes.

I am also a little... turned off? worried? concerned? confused? about the depth of her connection/caring/love for my mother. I've had gfs who loved my mother without a doubt but over years. A 3 hour dinner? Either there is some serious mother thing there or, as I've said before, I believe she is much better able to express her feelings for me second hand as has been clear since I've met her (ALWAYS her friends).

Anyway differences in details aside, yes the best bet now is to let her go home, settle in, digest what happened and figure out if I WAS just her Summer Boy or if she really wants me in Chengdu. If she does we have some talking to do first.

FYI I am not ready to propose. I have serious questions about her and haven't even had a real conversation. I am ready to a) visit her (with some questions answered first so I feel comfortable) b) learn Mandarin so we can start talking more c) start exchanging letters with her and learning about her. I can SEE one day proposing to her if things went well as she has many if not all of the amazing qualities I want and would make not just a beautiful wife but an amazing and powerful ally and partner. In fact when her friend asked through her 'Does it bother you she is so ambitious?' I said "Hell no I love it. In fact maybe we can take over the world and I can be King and she can be Queen" and she loved that. So I can know a woman is someone I COULD marry without being ready to propose at the moment.