conflicted about this because don't know if this is a red flag for BPD?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I am seeing this woman and things are moving very fast in some ways and very slow in other ways.  Let me explain.  This woman and i met through a relationship group on fb and we had been discussing our previous partners and breakups.  I felt in the begining that we were just going to be friends and that we were comforting each other and learning about relationships.  We would talk about what we wanted vs what actually happened in relationships. 

At some point the conversation went down the path of we really like each other and would we have a potential for a relationship? That led to "well we live in different states so it is unlikely" type of thing.  I was okay with that.  However, i was going to go on a business/personal trip and when she said, "i wish we could meet in person"  i suggested that since i was driving through her state that we in fact do that. 
The problem was that it was 3-4 hours away from where she lived (the potential meeting point that i was driving through).   I told her that if she wanted to meet that i was going to get an airbnb for the weekend and then if she wanted to just come up for the day and meet and go out for some food and talk in person we could do that.  She was concerned about being too tired to drive back so she asked or put out the scenario that she could get an airbnb and stay over for one night or if we seemed like we wanted to hang out longer she could stay longer.  I felt this was a mature approach between two adults.

Fast forward, we met, we hit it off and she had actually booked a room in the same house where i was staying because she said she was scared to stay somewhere by herself.  So she booked a room and then a few days before started getting cold feet. I understood as it seemed like a healthy thing to question meeting a new guy in this way.  The thing is we felt such a strong connection to each other that it seemed inevitable.   The first night was great and we went out dancing and having fun.  She came back to my room and we watched a movie and talked.  At some point, she cuddled up to me and we started kissing.  She stayed in her room as i told her that we are both vulnerable and that i didn't want to be a "rebound" for her getting over her last guy.  She seemed to respect that. 

The next night we went out again (she decided to stay) and we had a conversation about the kissing and cuddling the night before.  I told her my feelings and and why it was important for me to take things slow.  Truthfully i was afraid of being someone's rebound like my last relationship.  She said that she was not looking for a one night stand and if we were to go down romantic relationship path that she wanted to be in a relationship with a man who wanted things to last long term.  In the past, she said men were not wanting to commit to her.   The conversation seemed healthy and I felt that she was respecting me for wanting to be a gentleman etc.  After dinner we went out to a jazz bar and it was great.  She loves jazz and so i took her somewhere that she would like.  I wound up liking it very much myself.  There were couples there that were getting so romantic with each other and one was even making out.  We were both getting a little revved up about that (the romance etc).   We got into the car and before i knew it she made a pass at me to kiss.  I couldn't help myself because she is beautiful to me and in our talk I had said that i would be okay with kissing but nothing more then that.

Well, guys i let me boundaries down.  We got back to the place we were staying and the kissing continued and one thing led to another and i tried to question what we were doing but because she was okay with it and soothed my fears we went to the next level.  We were two consenting adults who were having a heated moment of passion or at least that is how i justified it once she soothed my fears.

So now we are back to video chatting and talking everyday but she has been telling me that she loves me etc.  It seems to early to hear this because i've been in the infatuation stage before and it's great but then it leads to heartbreak later. 

Here's my question:  i don't know if people in healthy relationships fall in love this way physically so fast and either i like it so much that i attract women who behave like this or i think how great it is and i wouldn't want to be in a relationship with a boring sex life or one that didn't have passion.

Confused on these points: 
1.  she seems to say the "right" things like she is looking for monogomous long term life partner.
2.  she seems to be empathetic to an auto immune disease that i have that made me think that i wouldn't be able to have sex again (and she seems to accept me despite this)
3.   our phone calls are very much about regular life things and not sex filled conversations but she will say "love you" and "i miss you already".   I used to think these things were normal but i don't know what normal is anymore. 

bottom line:  i've been a victim of love bombing before but i thought because of the distance that we have a built in barrier.  The truth is that i probably did let my boundaries down because i justified that by thinking because of my condition that sex wasn't going to happen anyway.  I really didn't believe that this would happen.  But- i'm questioning everything and CONFLICTED in the sense that i don't what i can do to tell if she is healthy or if i am looking at this healthy. 

Maybe it's just a watch and see type of scenario.  I feel very attracted to her and like that she seems like she just wants a guy who really wants to go the distance.  But what can i say if i feel she starts getting hypersexual or is "too into" me?  I guess i'm looking for others to look at this and see if it looks like a train wreck, or something sweet that just needs to be looked in day/day and see how things unfold.   She actually seems like a past gf that i had but only she is much more mature in her career behaviors and seems very intelligent and very driven personally to accomplish her goals. She also is open to correcting certain things that have been a pattern for her or when i talk about certain aspects of our communication and how we could change things.  ie.  because i am enamored by her and very attracted to her sometimes i will just listen to her and look deeply into her eyes.  I am feeling a sense of bonding when we talk about certain things and i'm amazed at her perspectives. A few times she has said, "what" and that she was just being self conscious.  I assured her that was thinking positive things (she has a critical Mom) and that maybe we can develop a code when this feeling comes up.  So she was open to this and we figured out a cute way to let each other know what the look was and I also showed her what one of my upset or stressed out looks look like.  This seems positive but i think "oh we are just in the infatuation stage, so she'll tell me everything i want to hear" 

just conflicted that i'm possibly screwing this up again.

thanks for feedback

[truthbeknown]

I am seeing this woman and things are moving very fast in some ways and very slow in other ways.  Let me explain.  This woman and i met through a relationship group on fb and we had been discussing our previous partners and breakups.  I felt in the begining that we were just going to be friends and that we were comforting each other and learning about relationships.  We would talk about what we wanted vs what actually happened in relationships. 

At some point the conversation went down the path of we really like each other and would we have a potential for a relationship? That led to "well we live in different states so it is unlikely" type of thing.  I was okay with that.  However, i was going to go on a business/personal trip and when she said, "i wish we could meet in person"  i suggested that since i was driving through her state that we in fact do that. 
The problem was that it was 3-4 hours away from where she lived (the potential meeting point that i was driving through).   I told her that if she wanted to meet that i was going to get an airbnb for the weekend and then if she wanted to just come up for the day and meet and go out for some food and talk in person we could do that.  She was concerned about being too tired to drive back so she asked or put out the scenario that she could get an airbnb and stay over for one night or if we seemed like we wanted to hang out longer she could stay longer.  I felt this was a mature approach between two adults.

Fast forward, we met, we hit it off and she had actually booked a room in the same house where i was staying because she said she was scared to stay somewhere by herself.  So she booked a room and then a few days before started getting cold feet. I understood as it seemed like a healthy thing to question meeting a new guy in this way.  The thing is we felt such a strong connection to each other that it seemed inevitable.   The first night was great and we went out dancing and having fun.  She came back to my room and we watched a movie and talked.  At some point, she cuddled up to me and we started kissing.  She stayed in her room as i told her that we are both vulnerable and that i didn't want to be a "rebound" for her getting over her last guy.  She seemed to respect that. 

The next night we went out again (she decided to stay) and we had a conversation about the kissing and cuddling the night before.  I told her my feelings and and why it was important for me to take things slow.  Truthfully i was afraid of being someone's rebound like my last relationship.  She said that she was not looking for a one night stand and if we were to go down romantic relationship path that she wanted to be in a relationship with a man who wanted things to last long term.  In the past, she said men were not wanting to commit to her.   The conversation seemed healthy and I felt that she was respecting me for wanting to be a gentleman etc.  After dinner we went out to a jazz bar and it was great.  She loves jazz and so i took her somewhere that she would like.  I wound up liking it very much myself.  There were couples there that were getting so romantic with each other and one was even making out.  We were both getting a little revved up about that (the romance etc).   We got into the car and before i knew it she made a pass at me to kiss.  I couldn't help myself because she is beautiful to me and in our talk I had said that i would be okay with kissing but nothing more then that.

Well, guys i let me boundaries down.  We got back to the place we were staying and the kissing continued and one thing led to another and i tried to question what we were doing but because she was okay with it and soothed my fears we went to the next level.  We were two consenting adults who were having a heated moment of passion or at least that is how i justified it once she soothed my fears.

So now we are back to video chatting and talking everyday but she has been telling me that she loves me etc.  It seems to early to hear this because i've been in the infatuation stage before and it's great but then it leads to heartbreak later. 

Here's my question:  i don't know if people in healthy relationships fall in love this way physically so fast and either i like it so much that i attract women who behave like this or i think how great it is and i wouldn't want to be in a relationship with a boring sex life or one that didn't have passion.

Confused on these points: 
1.  she seems to say the "right" things like she is looking for monogomous long term life partner.
2.  she seems to be empathetic to an auto immune disease that i have that made me think that i wouldn't be able to have sex again (and she seems to accept me despite this)
3.   our phone calls are very much about regular life things and not sex filled conversations but she will say "love you" and "i miss you already".   I used to think these things were normal but i don't know what normal is anymore. 

bottom line:  i've been a victim of love bombing before but i thought because of the distance that we have a built in barrier.  The truth is that i probably did let my boundaries down because i justified that by thinking because of my condition that sex wasn't going to happen anyway.  I really didn't believe that this would happen.  But- i'm questioning everything and CONFLICTED in the sense that i don't what i can do to tell if she is healthy or if i am looking at this healthy. 

Maybe it's just a watch and see type of scenario.  I feel very attracted to her and like that she seems like she just wants a guy who really wants to go the distance.  But what can i say if i feel she starts getting hypersexual or is "too into" me?  I guess i'm looking for others to look at this and see if it looks like a train wreck, or something sweet that just needs to be looked in day/day and see how things unfold.   She actually seems like a past gf that i had but only she is much more mature in her career behaviors and seems very intelligent and very driven personally to accomplish her goals. She also is open to correcting certain things that have been a pattern for her or when i talk about certain aspects of our communication and how we could change things.  ie.  because i am enamored by her and very attracted to her sometimes i will just listen to her and look deeply into her eyes.  I am feeling a sense of bonding when we talk about certain things and i'm amazed at her perspectives. A few times she has said, "what" and that she was just being self conscious.  I assured her that was thinking positive things (she has a critical Mom) and that maybe we can develop a code when this feeling comes up.  So she was open to this and we figured out a cute way to let each other know what the look was and I also showed her what one of my upset or stressed out looks look like.  This seems positive but i think "oh we are just in the infatuation stage, so she'll tell me everything i want to hear" 

just conflicted that i'm possibly screwing this up again.

thanks for feedback

[Coastered]

Well, I personally do not see a massive problem here.  If you are talking about BPD then you will need a few more red flags than that (personally speaking).  How long have you known her?  How long after you started kissing did she say she loved you?

I do not see anything really wrong here and from what you have said its not what I would consider love bombing although others may have a different view.

My thought?  This is something sweet that just needs to be looked in day/day and see how things unfold.  As you put it, just a watch and see type of scenario.

[Notwendy]

I think it is too soon to pass some kind of judgement, but I think it would help to define "red flags". One can use that term to look at signs of BPD. The other way is to look at potential signs that make you personally feel uncomfortable. This is your own boundaries. Our boundaries reflect our own personal values- regardless of the other person.

Love bombing would be a red flag that a person has BPD. You feeling discomfort about something is a red flag to you about your own boundaries.

Another example of a red flag is our own personal wishes for a relationship. Let's say someone is deeply religious and wants a partner who has the same religion. Then meets someone who they like very much but that person is not the same religion. Nothing is wrong with either person. They just may not be happy together as a couple because one, or both of them is compromising a core value. Either one has the right to not pursue the relationship- on the basis of that, not because something is "wrong" with the other person.

You are attracted to this person, but you are also in control of your own relationships. Whether or not she has BPD, if you are feeling uncomfortable with the way this relationship is progressing- then that is a red flag for you to examine. If you feel certain about your own boundaries, and what you are looking for in a relationship, what is your comfort level about the pace you want it to go- then you also know you can choose what your part is going to be in this.

One general red flag ( not about either of you) is that- when there is physical passion before really getting to know each other, it can cloud your judgment. You were both consenting adults- you didn't do anything wrong, but you know a long term relationship involves knowing more about a person. If you want to slow this down, you can, but you will need the willpower to do this and she would need to be committed to doing that too. If you feel uncomfortable with the "I love you" this soon, you can reply honestly- "I am attracted to you and want to get to know you better, but I feel it is too soon for me to express that". This is your boundary and you can uphold it.

See a red flag? Paying attention to your own feelings and boundaries may help you to decide what to do.

[Cat Familiar]

I'll add my two cents to the excellent contributions of Notwendy and Coastered, and say that it's likely that she could be a healthy person who has felt such an emotional drought after a previous dysfunctional relationship that she's allowing herself to move forward more quickly than she might have otherwise.

Also it's hard to discern red flags when you're in the midst of the beginnings of a new relationship that seems to be promising. And even high functioning pwBPD can seem normal for an extended period of time before dropping the mask, so there's really no guarantees, regardless of how vigilant one hopes to be.

I do hope that she's an emotionally healthy woman and with the distance of a long distance relationship, you will have time to observe her more carefully, but still LDRs can have their own inherent issues in that it's easier to put one's best foot forward when it's only for a short burst of time.

Good luck with this relationship, truthbeknown. It's good that you're being mindful about entering into it. 

[truthbeknown]

I think it is too soon to pass some kind of judgement, but I think it would help to define "red flags". One can use that term to look at signs of BPD. The other way is to look at potential signs that make you personally feel uncomfortable. This is your own boundaries. Our boundaries reflect our own personal values- regardless of the other person.

Love bombing would be a red flag that a person has BPD. You feeling discomfort about something is a red flag to you about your own boundaries.

Another example of a red flag is our own personal wishes for a relationship. Let's say someone is deeply religious and wants a partner who has the same religion. Then meets someone who they like very much but that person is not the same religion. Nothing is wrong with either person. They just may not be happy together as a couple because one, or both of them is compromising a core value. Either one has the right to not pursue the relationship- on the basis of that, not because something is "wrong" with the other person.

You are attracted to this person, but you are also in control of your own relationships. Whether or not she has BPD, if you are feeling uncomfortable with the way this relationship is progressing- then that is a red flag for you to examine. If you feel certain about your own boundaries, and what you are looking for in a relationship, what is your comfort level about the pace you want it to go- then you also know you can choose what your part is going to be in this.

One general red flag ( not about either of you) is that- when there is physical passion before really getting to know each other, it can cloud your judgment. You were both consenting adults- you didn't do anything wrong, but you know a long term relationship involves knowing more about a person. If you want to slow this down, you can, but you will need the willpower to do this and she would need to be committed to doing that too. If you feel uncomfortable with the "I love you" this soon, you can reply honestly- "I am attracted to you and want to get to know you better, but I feel it is too soon for me to express that". This is your boundary and you can uphold it.

See a red flag? Paying attention to your own feelings and boundaries may help you to decide what to do.

In my last relationship my partner told me she loved me (not at first like this) and then cheated on me.  This new girlfriend knows about this and when i didn't say "i love" right back one time she said, "you don't believe me".  I said, "how do you know you love me?"  She said, "it's how i feel about you".   It's sweet but i've never been in a relationship where the person said it everytime we talked or chatted.  It's not that i don't care about her i just don't want to it to be contrived and i'm just wanting things to unfold a bit.  I'm not worried about the long distance yet but it does have inherent problems. She is afraid that relationships always fail and it feels like that could add some pressure if things didn't work out because of the distance.  I'm open to trying though.  I don't feel like i'm being avoidant or resistant but just cautious in the back of my mind.   

I also don't know how to navigate the honeymoon phase because i do enjoy it and maybe that is just how i'm wired?  i am a romantic.   As far as getting to know her ; yes i haven't been able to see how she would behave around my friends or other people since we are not in person together that much.

she does stay in touch with several ex boyfriends and i'm not jealous but watching that too.  She tells me so she is not hiding anything.   my past wounds cause me to be on the look out i suppose.

[truthbeknown]

Well, I personally do not see a massive problem here.  If you are talking about BPD then you will need a few more red flags than that (personally speaking).  How long have you known her?  How long after you started kissing did she say she loved you?

I do not see anything really wrong here and from what you have said its not what I would consider love bombing although others may have a different view.

My thought?  This is something sweet that just needs to be looked in day/day and see how things unfold.  As you put it, just a watch and see type of scenario.

Thank you.  it feels sweet and i'll keep one eye open and one eye closed until i have more time to see things unfold

[once removed]

Here's my question:  i don't know if people in healthy relationships fall in love this way physically so fast and either i like it so much that i attract women who behave like this or i think how great it is and i wouldn't want to be in a relationship with a boring sex life or one that didn't have passion.

I am seeing this woman and things are moving very fast in some ways and very slow in other ways.  Let me explain.  This woman and i met through a relationship group on fb and we had been discussing our previous partners and breakups.  I felt in the begining that we were just going to be friends and that we were comforting each other and learning about relationships.  We would talk about what we wanted vs what actually happened in relationships. 

truthbeknown, i see this less as an issue of BPD or red flags, and more of one about vulnerability, building relationships where each partner is trying to heal the others wounds.

they are typically passionate, whirlwind romances, intense, and instantly feel very close. theres a great incentive to dive right into that, it feels very validating, it can feel very healing. we can sweep our wounds under the rug. it happens all the time in support groups. it happens in AA. it happens in GriefShare (for widows). it even happens here.

real connection, real intimacy, these things are built slowly over time. the intense nature of this kind of relationship can make it appear as those things are already present, and effortlessly.

its a drama triangle.

and the problem is that when the drama ends, when the honeymoon ends, when the relationship is no longer about healing one anothers wounds, one party usually loses interest, loses the spark, loses the chemistry that made things so intense at first, and the other party feels confused, pushes to return to that, the relationship dies, and there is great pain all around.

Maybe it's just a watch and see type of scenario.

i wouldnt wing this. id continue to get the feedback youre seeking.

1. i would put less stock in what shes saying, and pay more attention to what youre doing. of course she wants a long term, monogamous relationship. most people do .
2. is saying "i love you" too soon any more a sign of things moving too quickly than having sex is? one frequently tends to follow the other.

a lot of us arrived here via this same route. thats not me telling you to exit the relationship. its me telling you to see things as they are, and approach it accordingly rather than blindly. change, healthy dating, these things require learning new ways, and hard choices.

[gotbushels]

truthbeknown   

... .
it's likely that she could be a healthy person who has felt such an emotional drought after a previous dysfunctional relationship that she's allowing herself to move forward more quickly than she might have otherwise.

I think this too.

I'm also with the others in the thinking that it seems quite early to tell. I do want to recall that her being not-BPD is something like 94% odds. Pretty good. Cat Familiar put it this way and I support and hold it out:

Also it's hard to discern red flags when you're in the midst of the beginnings of a new relationship that seems to be promising. And even high functioning pwBPD can seem normal for an extended period of time before dropping the mask, so there's really no guarantees, regardless of how vigilant one hopes to be.

I encourage you to keep your life and interests outside of the relationship. It seems to help with keeping a wide perspective from the start of any relationship.

Enjoy your peace.   

[truthbeknown]

truthbeknown, i see this less as an issue of BPD or red flags, and more of one about vulnerability, building relationships where each partner is trying to heal the others wounds.

they are typically passionate, whirlwind romances, intense, and instantly feel very close. theres a great incentive to dive right into that, it feels very validating, it can feel very healing. we can sweep our wounds under the rug. it happens all the time in support groups. it happens in AA. it happens in GriefShare (for widows). it even happens here.

real connection, real intimacy, these things are built slowly over time. the intense nature of this kind of relationship can make it appear as those things are already present, and effortlessly.

its a drama triangle.

and the problem is that when the drama ends, when the honeymoon ends, when the relationship is no longer about healing one anothers wounds, one party usually loses interest, loses the spark, loses the chemistry that made things so intense at first, and the other party feels confused, pushes to return to that, the relationship dies, and there is great pain all around.

i wouldnt wing this. id continue to get the feedback youre seeking.

1. i would put less stock in what shes saying, and pay more attention to what youre doing. of course she wants a long term, monogamous relationship. most people do .
2. is saying "i love you" too soon any more a sign of things moving too quickly than having sex is? one frequently tends to follow the other.

a lot of us arrived here via this same route. thats not me telling you to exit the relationship. its me telling you to see things as they are, and approach it accordingly rather than blindly. change, healthy dating, these things require learning new ways, and hard choices.

More stock into what i'm doing:   I am really attached to talking to her and sharing with her.  We can spend hours on the phone or video chat together and it seems like minutes.  It has not interfered with anything at this point except i did choose to forgo line dancing last night vs talking with her and video chatting with her .   I don't think that was a bad thing that i did that but i'll keep on eye on myself because it's the first time i've done that and just felt like i was too tired to go out anyway. 

Do I worry that this is just going to be the kind of relationship that you described.? i'm trying to prepare myself.  Because of the consistent attention i don't feel stressed like in my last relationship that was intermittent reward and pulling away behaviors.  We have both suffered at the hands of avoidants and i do believe we are basking in the fact that we are both connectors.  Will we get tired of each other? will i start to feel engulfed?  will she?  I suspect in this case that i might be the one who worries more about being engulfed because of my fear of being hurt again and questioning what is "healthy" .  I want physical and emotional intimacy and it is here at my doorstep and I'm asking myself "am i selfish for accepting this or wanting this even if it's unrealistic to last or continue at this pace?"  Also, i do have friends who started out this way and are still together and still love each other.   I am committed to taking this one day at a time and watching how things unfold.  I have alot going on with career stuff right now and the fact that this relationship is distance right now gives a good buffer.  Where the rubber might meet the road is if we lived together or were in the same town.  I'm trying to give myself permission to enjoy this.   The only other relationship that i had like this ended not because the trauma got resolved and after the healing things died but because she started showing "stalking" behaviors and lying about things and hyper jealousy.   If she hadn't switched to that behavior pattern i think we would still be together.  She was an anxious attacher and i can handle that as i am mostly secure (63%) on my test but if lying shows up then i pull back and run for the hills.  Strangely we have managed to remain friends even after the break up many years ago.

This new gal feels like a healthier version of that r/s I just mentioned and I'm comparing it to that one to see where things go.  That r/s was very sexually intimate and emotionally intimate and so is this one.  That relationship turned into a push/pull dynamic.  This one is too young to see that and my hope would be that it doesn't.   We have talked hypotheticals about what we want down the road.  She wants marriage and i want stability emotionally and relationship wise.  I told her that i am open to marriage in a r/s but i would need to live together first at least for a year and see how we interacted in close quarters before rushing into anything.  That didn't seem to scare her and truthfully she has 3 more years in her schooling program because she is paying for it by herself without loans and is taking the slow route (sign of responsibility) .

In summary, it has some of the components of the world wind romances that wind up crashing and some of the components to two people trying to find security, and some of the components of the unknown. 

Here i go again.  But even if it turns out nothing more then healing partners I am loving it for that right now and trying not to judge that.  IF it turns out as  a long term secure relationship then it would be the first lottery ticket that i have ever cashed in.   thanks for the feedback and i'll keep this thread going as more information comes in.   

[Notwendy]

Another possible red flag is the circumstances- both of you coming out of a break up and meeting on a break up FB page- which means you both have situations to heal from. I think you are aware that the two of you are in ways, soothing each other's emotional wounds.

Could this become something for the long run- and a good thing? Possibly, and really nobody knows.

If the two of you are not in a hurry- I think her school plan is a good timeline for making this more permanent. If she finishes school before the two of you make a more serious commitment, it gives you time to see how the relationship goes. She's made an investment in herself and this commitment is good for her. Personally, I'd be concerned if either of you were willing to toss out your personal goals in this relationship- and her commitment to her schooling is one of them. It's also an example of her boundaries- this is important to her.

What are yours? Yes, you gave up one night of line dancing- but what is important to you? What are your own pursuits and goals. You might want to consider some individual emotional healing from your break up- like counseling- as to not have it all be with her. Career goals? ( you don't have to answer these, just think about it ) . What about the tough stuff in a marriage? She's open about looking for marriage-you are open to the idea. Some issues that become difficult in marriage; religion, money, children, careers, sharing child care. I think all relationships have an infatuation beginning, and then evolve to the day to day reality of a relationship. You don't need to do this all at once, but if thinking about a future, discuss what the two of you want in a marriage. See if it fits.

[truthbeknown]

Another possible red flag is the circumstances- both of you coming out of a break up and meeting on a break up FB page- which means you both have situations to heal from. I think you are aware that the two of you are in ways, soothing each other's emotional wounds.

Could this become something for the long run- and a good thing? Possibly, and really nobody knows.

If the two of you are not in a hurry- I think her school plan is a good timeline for making this more permanent. If she finishes school before the two of you make a more serious commitment, it gives you time to see how the relationship goes. She's made an investment in herself and this commitment is good for her. Personally, I'd be concerned if either of you were willing to toss out your personal goals in this relationship- and her commitment to her schooling is one of them. It's also an example of her boundaries- this is important to her.

What are yours? Yes, you gave up one night of line dancing- but what is important to you? What are your own pursuits and goals. You might want to consider some individual emotional healing from your break up- like counseling- as to not have it all be with her. Career goals? ( you don't have to answer these, just think about it ) . What about the tough stuff in a marriage? She's open about looking for marriage-you are open to the idea. Some issues that become difficult in marriage; religion, money, children, careers, sharing child care. I think all relationships have an infatuation beginning, and then evolve to the day to day reality of a relationship. You don't need to do this all at once, but if thinking about a future, discuss what the two of you want in a marriage. See if it fits.

i have done counseling, hypnosis, eft and somatic work.   So i was further along in the healing process then her but there are still triggers from time to time. ie it has been a year since our breakup and a holiday for my religion has stimulated some thoughts or memories about what happened last year.  But they just seem like memories now.  Sort of a dream that didn't come true or having a dream and then waking up to realize it was just a dream.   

thanks for the feedback and input.  I will give updates as things progress

[Cat Familiar]

Nice when triggers become distant memories.    Good work processing that!

[truthbeknown]

Another possible red flag is the circumstances- both of you coming out of a break up and meeting on a break up FB page- which means you both have situations to heal from. I think you are aware that the two of you are in ways, soothing each other's emotional wounds.

Could this become something for the long run- and a good thing? Possibly, and really nobody knows.

If the two of you are not in a hurry- I think her school plan is a good timeline for making this more permanent. If she finishes school before the two of you make a more serious commitment, it gives you time to see how the relationship goes. She's made an investment in herself and this commitment is good for her. Personally, I'd be concerned if either of you were willing to toss out your personal goals in this relationship- and her commitment to her schooling is one of them. It's also an example of her boundaries- this is important to her.

Well, i got more information on this.  As it turns out, she had told me initially before we got more serious that she was over here on a "green card".  The truth came out (i asked) that she is on a student visa and needs to stay in school to keep her visa active.  I dated someone in this situation about 3 years ago and decided to just stay friends.  We had never crossed the romantic line and that felt good to me because that woman had a history of being very anxious in relationships and had two children with different men.  At the time, i just wanted to keep things on the friend level and as it turned out i'm glad I did because she wound up losing her visa. 

With this gal, she does not have any children where it would seem like she is desperate to have to marry to stay over here but one never knows.  I addressed her not telling me the whole truth in the beginning and she said she was waiting to tell me in private (in person) because she was paranoid to talk about it over the air waves.  I am pretty empathetic so i can see that she wasn't sure if our relationship was going to go anywhere at first so she was holding back.  It gave us the opportunity to talk about the values of truth in relationship and i told her it was very high on my values list and going forward if there was any "holding back of truth" that i would consider that a lie and it would greatly affect me in relationship with her.

It also gave me an opportunity to tell her  something for which i have a boundary for:
1. even if she was a citizen, i would not rush into marriage. I would want to live with someone for at least a period of a year before committing to marriage.  That is just my gameplan.  I think living together brings out the "realness" in relationship and although many on here (including myself) didn't see the mask of BPD traits come off in previous relationships until longer then that, i feel it is something that i would still need to execute to see if we are compatible in other ways etc. 

She was sorry and we had good talks about the topic without her getting overly defensive or lashing out at me etc.  So I believe that meant we had a mature conversation about it. 

Next I told her that we would also have to see how we do with the long distance aspect of the relationship. I was in session with a relationship coach in training who told me that she (the coach) had been in a ldr and after they lived together that is when things fell apart and he eventually cheated but living together was a downer to the r/s.   So she said she would never do a ldr again and for me she is advising that i be clear on set points (ie how long before we would have to live together etc, how much time for visiting each other in person etc.).  I thought that was healthy and told my gal about that and she seemed to think that this was logical to a certain degree but then came back with a quote that someone told her "if i guy wants you to be in his life, he will make it happen."   


What are yours? Yes, you gave up one night of line dancing- but what is important to you? What are your own pursuits and goals. You might want to consider some individual emotional healing from your break up- like counseling- as to not have it all be with her. Career goals? ( you don't have to answer these, just think about it ) . What about the tough stuff in a marriage? She's open about looking for marriage-you are open to the idea. Some issues that become difficult in marriage; religion, money, children, careers, sharing child care. I think all relationships have an infatuation beginning, and then evolve to the day to day reality of a relationship. You don't need to do this all at once, but if thinking about a future, discuss what the two of you want in a marriage. See if it fits.

[Insom]

Hi,  truthbeknown.  

I hear that honesty matters a lot to you and it sounds like you're doing your best to be clear and up front about who you are and what you're looking for in a relationship.

I thought that was healthy and told my gal about that and she seemed to think that this was logical to a certain degree but then came back with a quote that someone told her "if i guy wants you to be in his life, he will make it happen."  

How did hearing that quote from her make you feel?

[truthbeknown]

Hi,  truthbeknown.  

I hear that honesty matters a lot to you and it sounds like you're doing your best to be clear and up front about who you are and what you're looking for in a relationship.

How did hearing that quote from her make you feel?

made me worry that she can be easily influenced by others.  I don't know that to be true right now but it is something i will watch.   

[truthbeknown]

New update:

Today we were talking and she said something about my ego and was implying that something she said would go to my ego.  I brushed it off at the time but then confronted her later when we had time to talk more seriously.  At the same time she had been triggered by something that i had told her about an ex. She was going into what seemed like "wounded" or "abandonment" issues.   I tried to re assure her and validate her but at the same time i noticed i was feeling duped because she has been sort of idolizing me and telling me how special and great that i am and then the question about the ego.   We eventually got to the bottom of it and found out that she feels her mom is very egotistical because of her doctor title and wanted to see if i was the same way. it was a little un nerving because she has been putting me up on a pedestal and then i feel like she pulled the legs out today.  I confronted her and let her know in past relationships this was a problem and that i didn't want to go down that path again.  I admit i was triggered and went off on a long description of how i have been duped in the past and how i wanted us to be different.  I told her that i wasn't mad at her but that i was frustrated that she seemed to be projecting her mom onto me.  I know i have a habit of talking intellectually about a situation and i'm very conceptual in my conversations and she took most of what i said literally. 

There is a little language gap (not much but nuances) as she is from another country originally. 

Normally she is very sweet and she knows about relationship topics like attachment theory, borderline personality etc.  So I was taken back by her going into an emotional meltdown over worrying that i would take my ex back and then also trying to compare me to her mom's ego.   When i confronted her i did go on lecture mode (or at least that is how she said she felt) but maybe i need to distinguish what is healthy to voice vs what is being reflected back as a lecture.  I asked her questions but maybe she went into child mode and i went into parent mode (i did feel like i had to teach her what is some pattern vs who i really am).  When i said, "have a showed you any reason to believe that you think i am too egotistical for you or that i will in the future let things go to my head unreasonably" she said, "well of course we don't the future. you could show me some side that i don't know about.  we all have different aspects of ourselves."   I thought, and said, "well this can be said of you as well but i'm going by what i have seen and experienced with you so far and i'm asking you to stay present and do the same with me."   I just feel like i'm the teacher/coach in this relationship.  I do care about her and feel that she loves me or has strong feelings for me but i'm worried that i go from a guy with all the answers to today going to "what if he gets a big ego because i complimented him."   

I know relationships aren't perfect but i'm still trying to understand what is healthy and not.  We took a break and came back through video to talk it out.  When seeing each other she seemed much more present with me and less wound based.  We agreed to next time a trigger came up on the phone to prompt each other to get on with the conversation over video.

[gotbushels]

Normally she is very sweet and she knows about relationship topics like attachment theory, borderline personality etc.  So I was taken back by her going into an emotional meltdown ... .

Sometimes even when people understand how things are, this doesn't mean they'll give a textbook solution to that particular issue.

We agreed to next time a trigger came up on the phone to prompt each other to get on with the conversation over video.

Yes it makes sense to have important conversations in person rather than over the phone. It's easier to communicate directly and accurately when you can see someone.

[once removed]

Today we were talking and she said something about my ego and was implying that something she said would go to my ego.  I brushed it off at the time but then confronted her later when we had time to talk more seriously.  At the same time she had been triggered by something that i had told her about an ex. She was going into what seemed like "wounded" or "abandonment" issues.   I tried to re assure her and validate her but at the same time i noticed i was feeling duped because she has been sort of idolizing me and telling me how special and great that i am and then the question about the ego.   

can you say more about what was said, specifically? the back and forth?

[truthbeknown]

Update:

I haven't been on the board recently because i have been busy with a new job that i took and dealing with that. 

My gf and I had another meeting in person in the beginning of Nov.   It went well for the most part except for one major thing relating to our sexual interaction. This is highly personal to say but it has or may have bearing on our interaction/s that i'm about to share.   So quick recap- we had unprotected sex and I felt it was safe due to the fact that we exchanged test results after breaking up from previous partners.  But then I got some symptoms and it introduced alot of stress to me.  It's a long story but my test results have come back negative and it appears hers have too (been 2 weeks and they said if no call then all clear).  At first this seemed to bring us together rather then push us apart.  She was very empathetic and also felt bad that somehow it might be her fault.   

I started having health issues other then that and I'm mold sensitive (genetically) and believed that the place that i was renting had mold because my symptoms of mold exposure from the past were popping up again. 
She was very concerned about me and I felt very connected to her. 

However, Thanksgiving came along and i went to visit my mom. I was very engaged with my visit and spent less time on the phone with my gf.  Also neither one of us has introduced each other to our families.  We both agreed that we didn't want to "jinx" the relationship by introducing too soon.  So it was a little awkward because i felt like i was being hidden from her family and therefore i was doing the same. The main difference is that she lives with her family and talks with me on the phone/video all the time where i don't live with my mom so when i went for the thanksgiving visit my interactions went down with her.  She was upset by this.  I thought we talked through it but it seemed over the top in the way she handled her objections.  She admitted to being hormonal and apologized for acting harsh to me (angry tone).  I accepted and was understanding realizing that the holidays can bring on stress. 

Then after i got back to my place she started drilling me on every conversation where i mentioned another woman.  These are friends or interactions with clients and she suddenly became jealous. She got angry at me for inferring that she was jealous but I asked her what one calls it when someone is hyper focused on the interaction between a partner with someone of the opposite sex.   She started to act differently toward me and challenge me with questions about these said women.  I tried to reason with her and tell her that if i was hiding anything why would i tell her about my conversations with these women?    She turned it around into me being avoidant of answering the questions and that i should just basically be okay with her asking questions.
Keep in mind that she had withheld information from me about a previous boyfriend who she was going to his tai chi class.  When i saw her touch his face in a familiar way I reacted to that (this is 2 months ago).   She has not been back to Tai Chi class but now is using my words against me.  I asked her to protect the castle (analogy) in terms of how she interacts with other men.  She seemed to respond to that okay at the time but now if i even mention that i talk to another woman she tells me "if you're not going to protect the castle then i'm not going to either".   

I've confronted her on this threatening behavior.   I finally found an article that pretty much explains my relationship with her.  I was wondering if anyone else has studied attachment theory and looked at Stan Tatkin's work? 
here is a link to an article that describes the "angry resistant" attachment style.  https://stantatkin.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Allergic-to-Hope_Tatkin.pdf
I think it describes my gf to a T!  However, now i don't know what to do because i feel that as a more secure attachment style i attract disorganized or insecure attachment styles which btw may be another way of classifying BPD? 

I have come to love her but i have that feeling "here we go again" and I'm not sure how to proceed. 

feeling sad and frustrated (again).

[gotbushels]

truthbeknown  

I haven't been on the board recently because i have been busy with a new job that i took and dealing with that.  

It's a long story but my test results have come back negative and it appears hers have too (been 2 weeks and they said if no call then all clear).  

I discourage you from reading too much into what I say next. I've seen the procedure for test results quite a lot of times--perhaps clinics do it differently. In my area, call-backs are mandatory.

She admitted to being hormonal and apologized for acting harsh to me (angry tone).  I accepted and was understanding realizing that the holidays can bring on stress.  

Seems to be an honest exchange. I think that's good.

However, now i don't know what to do because i feel that as a more secure attachment style i attract disorganized or insecure attachment styles which btw may be another way of classifying BPD?  

Attachment styles might be a good place to look for you. I think you can start by figuring out what you want. If you want to improve the relationship, then perhaps you can look at adopting a more secure style. Tatkin said in that paper that 'angry resistant' is his term for 'anxious ambivalent'. One suggestion for improving a relationship with an anxious styled person is to adopt a secure style. What do you think?

I think it's easier to recall that BPD is a serious mental illness set out in the DSM, whereas attachment styles are categories for sets of behaviours. Therefore while there may be overlap of behaviours from the DSM classification system and the attachment style system, the two systems are distinct. Why is the distinction important to you here?

[truthbeknown]

Gotbushels:

the distinction is important because i'm trying to understand if attachment styles like the "anxious ambivilent" are correlations to someone who might have BPD traits as well.

For example, two nights ago i told my gf (while we were on the phone) "I think i'm going to say goodnight now because i'm tired and i'm falling asleep."  She first shifted into little girl behavior and sort of whined "no, i want you to lay in your bed and talk until you fall asleep."  Now i have basically done this with her because we are in a long distance relationship but tonight i just was so tired that i didn't feel like talkiing much and wanted to go.  She shifted from that begging state to an angry state, "fine, go ahead and hang up and go!"  it really threw me because it seemed immature and over the top.  I could sense her feelings of abandonment kicking in but i just didn't understand why- we talk everyday.   I told her that i didn't understand because a week ago when i asked her to cut me some slack for something she cited that she does: "i cut you slack like when you fall asleep everynight while we are talking."   She got super angry at this and told me that i was throwing her weaknesses in her face and that we agreed not to do this.  I definately felt like i was walking on eggshells.  I started to question whether i was treating her as she presented that i was.  In my clear mind i think that bringing up a prior conversation shouldn't trigger this much drama but i start to doubt myself and that is why i'm here.  She uses the hormonal card but i'm not so sure if i can buy into that completely (although some women say they feel crazy or emotional before their period.). 

The next day she was fine but i was left feeling like i got hit by a truck.  She did apologize and said that she talked to a friend who validated her PMS symptoms.

So Attachment style? hormones? BPD?  oye.   I'm feeling down because i seem to get into relationship dynamics that can be like this.  90% is great or i'm happy but the 10% is rough.  And the distance makes it harder to make a fun assessment on whether this relationship can go the distance.  I do believe we love each other but I often question whether love is enough after what i went through and go through with my exwife. 

[gotbushels]

the distinction is important because i'm trying to understand if attachment styles like the "anxious ambivilent" are correlations to someone who might have BPD traits as well.

OK.

I'm feeling down because i seem to get into relationship dynamics that can be like this.  
[... .]
I do believe we love each other but I often question whether love is enough after what i went through and go through with my exwife.

Being with a pwBPD SO can be horrific. It can make you feel down long after the breakup. Lots of us here went through that. I guess moving forward from the understanding, what it seems you're trying to do is figure out at least two things.

• If this person behaves like a pwBPD, what does that mean for you.
• If this person behaves like an anxious attachment style, what does that mean for you.

Forgive me if this is obvious--it also seems you're interested in helping yourself have a healthy relationship with someone. I think that's a worthwhile goal and common to a lot of people.  

I'm feeling down because i seem to get into relationship dynamics that can be like this.  90% is great or i'm happy but the 10% is rough.  

I hear you. We may feel lousy when we end up with lemon situations with our partners. When we have two consecutive people whom seem to have a largo proportion of traits we don't like, that may feel even more lousy. I encourage you to also see, at least for this new partner of yours, that there's still a whole 90% of good times together. You still enjoy yourself for 9 out of 10 days with this person.

Something we learn from that point is that we do end up with a lot of lemons with a BPD. Later on, we may find that we have a role to play in whether we get lemons or not with new people. So I encourage you with the hope that when you do see better ways to make good experiences with a new partner, the culture of 1/10 lemons or 1/100 lemons is something you can influence and help along.  

For example, two nights ago i told my gf [... .]

This is familiar to me. I appreciate your sharing here. It does remind me of what I went through with my pwBPD ex, but meanwhile let's recall that BPD isn't made with 1 disagreement or 1 conflict--even if that conflict feels like a big deal to us.

So what can you do? I'm waiting for someone else to chime in here so I'll give a suggestion.

In the short term, you can use validation with her. At the base of that disagreement, it seems that she misses you. You miss her. You have things to do (life), and so does she (though it doesn't come up). The anger to me seems secondary when you guys are trying to figure it out.

Then, when you've both calmed down, you can reassure her and move toward the reality you want. What that means to me is that you communicate your understanding of her wanting to spend time in affection with you (reassure). Stay with how you both feel: missing and/or love etc. Then you can neutrally state that you'd like to go to bed (move toward your objective: to end the call), and provide hope by telling her when you'll speak again. I think that recipe will work pretty well for this woman. Try it out and see how it goes for you.  

To help with doubts here, I think this kind of disagreement may actually be quite common with couples in the early stages. Simply, the two partners want more time together. There's a lot of ways people can deal with it--some pleasant, some not so much. Life has other often healthy demands on both of their time. It can be easy to go through as you both in the relationship may grow to accept that life exists outside of the relationship.


In the medium term, I think this kind of recipe is something you can expect from yourself and a healthy partner. If you both want the relationship at your own individual levels, you'll do things like this to help it to work.    I think that reciprocal healthy coexistence is something you can look forward to that you'd be less likely to get with a pwBPD--that's a big blessing.  


In the long term, you can see whether this is someone you want to be with--of course with the understanding that she comes with her own set of great things, average things, and maybe things you find unpleasant.  

[Insom]

Congrats on the new job, truthbeknown.  Thanks for checking back in. 

I'm feeling down because i seem to get into relationship dynamics that can be like this.  90% is great or i'm happy but the 10% is rough.  And the distance makes it harder to make a fun assessment on whether this relationship can go the distance.  I do believe we love each other but I often question whether love is enough after what i went through and go through with my exwife.

It sounds like you're happy in this relationship 90% of the time, and that the rough patches feel pretty . . . rough.  Would it be fair to say you're asking yourself if this is the right relationship for you?  What would help you feel more clear? 

She uses the hormonal card but i'm not so sure if i can buy into that completely (although some women say they feel crazy or emotional before their period.). 

For many women, PMS amplifies negative emotions.  Normal, existing feeling of sadness, irritation/insecurity that hang in the background can suddenly become very "loud" and feel urgent, like you need to address them now.  I'm with gotbushels that validation can help. 

How are you feeling today?

[truthbeknown]

thanks for the feedback.

yesterday was rough in the beginning but ended okay.  The morning conversation was uncomfortable because i realized that she obsesses about things and it's uncomfortable for me. I am afraid of certain behavioral tendencies because they have led to demise in past relationships.  This relationship seems to remind me of another relationship that i had.   The theme in the other relationship was when i was with her or in a relationship with her there was alot of push/pull dynamics but as friends we were good.  Anytime we were close there was tons of oppositional behavior and lack of bounderies.   And there were lies so i didn't trust her.  I realized that a relationship built on lack of trust wasn't healthy and i ended the relationship and have maintained a distant friendship.  I dated someone else in 2016/17 that cheated on me and was more of an avoidant attachment style.   There is no contact with her but i was in love with her so it was very sad for me.  I was willing to put up with her flaws until she got off meds and her personality shifted and she cheated.  With the new partner, I think a part of me might have accepted this long term relationship because in some wierd way it might have felt safe to do so.  I would not consider myself an avoidant per se but like situational depression for some people, i do feel i trying to guard against being hurt again myself.  And my current partner is too.  She does say she wants to work on her stuff in relationship with me and admits to having anger issues.  But it's almost like we've hit a point where all of a sudden she won't let me tell her what's upsetting me about her behavior (and this is new).   Before she would laugh if i told her and she seemed to want to know.  So i'm scared when partners change or alter from their typical behavior.  My mind seems to be on alert to this as i have now had a bad track record in relationships and in some way don't trust my own judgement.  Maybe i'm a bad picker, I think to myself. 

With many of the stories of BPD they started out great and then the vail came off.  I'm trying to protect myself from this but perhaps I can't.  If it's going to happen, it's going to happen.   With this partner there are some inherent challenges: 1. long distance, 2. she is younger then me and not sure how my judgemental family will handle that. 3. she has anger issues that are unresolved.  4.  she is from another country and after her school visa runs out i would have to marry her to stay in relationship with her.  This itself wouldn't scare me if i felt her personality was stable but if i'm going to be with someone who is a little iffy in that catagory i would prefer to be in a committed relationship without marriage.   I may be afraid of getting married again because of all the pain that i have gone through with my original divorce and alienation of kids.

I don't know what to do other then take it one day at a time.
I don't know if I trust my choices in partners.
I don't know how to resolve my long term fears of something going wrong if I were ask her to come here (move in with me) and whether marriage is in the cards for us.

I do know that we have alot in common.
I do know that when she is not mad, she seems to really care about me.
I do know that she is concerned about my  well being.
I do know that we both have fears to get over.
I do know that we have fun together when we are with each other.

So I'm willing to take this day by day and see where things go but i am not willing to ask her to marry me at this point. Maybe that is starting to bother her because she feels like her time clock in finding someone is ticking?  but i feel like her insecurities and anger issues may have driven away past partners? who knows?  but one man was going to marry her and she told him "don't marry me because you are trying to help me, marry me because you love me and want to be with me"  (she was skeptical of his love) so he took the out and said, "okay thank you for giving me an out" (apparently).   Sometimes her energy can push away or scare partners because it seems black/white rather then being patient. 

anyway, thanks and if there is any other thoughts please let me know as i'm looking for feedback.

[Insom]

Nice job noting and describing how you feel! 

So I'm willing to take this day by day and see where things go but i am not willing to ask her to marry me at this point.

I highlighted this because it's a nice, clear statement about what you want.

You mentioned in another paragraph that she lives with her parents.  Help me understand this better.  Has she been clear with you that she's seeking a marriage partner to firm up her immigration status?  How about the rest of her family?  Are they citizens?