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Author Topic: When I feel left out, it sends me into a tailspin  (Read 860 times)
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« on: November 22, 2018, 09:24:13 PM »

ive been struggling on and off for some years with my (very) best friend, and more recently, both he and another best friend, over feelings of being left out, and thoughtlessness.

suffice to say ive had a lot of hurt feelings and anger, and building resentment that, pivoting on their actions, either wax or wane, but long term, ive grown more resentful.

and its not lost on me that some of that comes from my own feelings of helplessness (i dont have a lot of close friends and neither do they, we are a circle) and wanting that help from my friends. my needs not being met by them. and of course, its also not lost on me that no one likes feeling left out.

i keep seeing the both of them building this world together that doesnt include me, and at times, feels like it even excludes me. doing things that ive done with either or both of them a million times before, with each other. meeting new people (some of whom i know or have met) and getting together, introducing each other, absent me.

and when it happens, like it did last night, my mind instantly goes into a defensive place that devalues them and builds myself up: "*I* introduced the two of you, and what do you even see in the other guy?". "the stuff the two of you are doing is shallow and stupid and i dont even want any part in it anyway." "thats it. i need to write the two of them off, and when they reach out, i cant be receptive, i need to be distant and separate myself."

or i feel badly about myself: "whats wrong? why dont my best friends want to hang out with or include me?".

or it schemes of passive aggressive ways that i can send a message to them that they dont matter, that im moving on.

mind you, thankfully, i cant think of a time that i have ever acted on any of that. but neither have i been passive/silent. i recognize that there are mature ways to communicate these things, and ive tried to take initiative, without begging or chasing. invited them to do more things. tried to include both of them if im with the other. the last time one of them (very best friend) and i had a general conversation about the status of our friendship, i mentioned "ya know, apart from all this music stuff we do, we ought to just be hanging out more." he agreed. and in fact, he made the effort for about a week, they both did; i tried to return it.

that was following one weekend where that same (very best) friend texts me from a bar that theyre both at, to tell me they just ran into a girl i saw briefly, with a frowny face, as if to pretend hes unhappy to see her. i ignored the latter part, because frankly i knew where it was going, and just said "thanks for the invite dawg" (i hate when people do that, but i felt it appropriate to call him on it, and its not like i did so on his facebook or something). he stammered for a bit by text and when he was done i just told him "invites never hurt  " and he seemed to get it.

i wasnt surprised when the next day, the other friend invited me out. neither was i surprised when, a day or two later, the friend id spoken to by text (very best friend) proceeds to ask my permission to date the girl i saw and the three of them went on to become bff.

that was pretty aggravating, but my hurt, and some of the examples run deeper than that and i think, justifiably so. 

when my dad died last year, i was clear to the both of them every time theyd ask, that all i really needed from them was their company; i needed that more than anything to get through the days. now, the other friend made the effort a number of times. i appreciated it and i made sure that he knew that. my (very) best friend, in my view, did not make that effort.

on new years, he did make plans with me, and i was over the moon to have that on what would have otherwise been a painful and isolating night. i went and got food and made plans to entertain. then he cancelled. it happens (often and recently), and id have gotten over an isolated incident with little thought, but i then discovered the two of them at the time were regularly hitting the bars together. no way around it, that hurt a lot.

my (very) best friend has two children. they are now pretty late into elementary school. i have seen either of them a combined total of maybe half a dozen times. that blows my mind, as it blows my mind that i ever saw his ex wife about as many. i have made numerous efforts to encourage him to include them on outings, plan outings, my parents would offer to watch them, etc.

our friendship (mine and very best friend) is complex in that since sixth grade, we have been in a band together, learned our instruments together, learned to make music together, shared the same dream of "making it". naturally, a lot of the time we make for and spend with each other revolves around that, but by no means all of it, probably less than 50%. it had all fallen by the wayside for some time; he was isolating in a bad marriage, not to mention very busy at work, not to mention raising two children. after his divorce, he wanted to get the band back together, so to speak. i was a little hesitant. i doubted that he would be consistent or anywhere near as driven as before. by that point, i had learned keys, and was working on and invested in my own material. he was always the chief songwriter, and it would be like pulling teeth to get him to really learn or spend time on anyone elses stuff. so i told him what i would need in order to do it, and he was all in. that was in, i dunno 2015 or so, and it went pretty well most of the time, even better when we recruited another old friend. but where we are today is where weve been before, and precisely what i saw coming. he makes time about once a month (i usually have to ask), has to cancel frequently, cant be bothered to really learn or spend time on anyone elses material; meanwhile, the bassist and i get together once a week to work on his (best friends) material. at this rate, we have been recording his same damn song for 9 months, and thats rather frustrating, especially knowing that he has the time, but hes hitting the bars or getting tattoos with the other friend, or going on dates with girls who the other friend gets to know (or introduces) quite well and i never even meet. some of this has come up before. one night he started talking to me about next steps and i said i hadnt been sure he was even interested anymore, and he went out of his way to assure me that far from it, hes just had difficulty finding time.

heres the thing. i know both of my best friends would be shocked and upset to know that i feel this way, and i think that if they did, they would try hard to remedy it for a week or two. i dont think its that im not fun, or not cool, or some wet blanket on a good time, and theyd let me know if that were the case. two of us or the three of us always have a great time together. there are some differences, of course. they like to hit the bars, and i dont (though not only do i go every time they invite me, but i invite them). they like to get tattoos, and i dont. they like to ride their motorcycles together, and i dont, nor need i be any part of that. i think its probably more (little t) thoughtlessness, and just a habit theyve developed, like habits i have developed with both of them before, but its one that has grown and increasingly excludes me.

our friendship(s) is of the nature that im certain i could have this conversation with them. i could probably even say these exact things. maybe i even should, but i think thats probably not the ideal way to go about it, and i think at this point, ive done about all i can reasonably do, and the best they can do in response is make an effort a couple of times.

i think that i need, have been needing, to find some middle ground, not send a message, not be pouty or passive aggressive, not give them the cold shoulder, i dont even think i should blowup/leave the band, but i think i need to detach from both of them, and these expectations of mine. ive never been too sure how to do that. its a weird place to be, unfollowing my two best friends on facebook so i dont have what theyre up to together and with others in my face and lose my  Cursing - won't cause site restrictions at Starbucks (click to insert in post).

i dont like saying these things, even anonymously. i dont like feeling this way.

and quite frankly, i didnt intend to get so deep into it. i welcome feedback and advice in this situation, but id like to open it up to a general discussion on mature ways to handle feeling/being left out, and mature ways to detach from loved ones when you dont want to, but feel youve no other choice.
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« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2018, 05:52:15 AM »

once removed   Welcome new member (click to insert in post)

Interesting sharing, thank you.  

Hmm I haven't much to say so I'm hoping someone else will chime in too while I go for the option of general discussion.  

I kind of get the feelings of anger and resentment, with a moving toward helplessness. I think my response when I'm excluded from gatherings with close friends is more sadness/helplessness.


A Party.
i keep seeing the both of them building this world together that doesnt include me, and at times, feels like it even excludes me.
I have a close friend whom didn't invite me to a party he set up. We share many mutual friends. I was quite hurt. I thought about it and saw that it would've been a bit awkward for me too, and I thought that he probably thought I wouldn't enjoy it. I didn't ask him as it felt embarrassing. There are probably parts I would enjoy, and indeed wouldn't enjoy.

Anyway, the concerns went away for a while because I wanted to spend time with other friends, and it helped I wasn't that "invested" emotionally if I was invited to that particular party. Of course, you mentioned girls here and there, and if there was that additional dimension of "I liked a girl that attended", or someone else did etc., I'd probably invest more--more complications.


Shoe's on the other foot.
Later on, I had opportunities to invite him to some other friends' gatherings. I saw in myself that I didn't want to invite him consciously to these, because even though it was years after the first party (i.e., no resentment held by me)--I genuinely thought he wouldn't mix well at those gatherings. To get specific, he's a very bookish type (reads heaps, drinks x-years English whiskey alone). The gatherings were with people that do things very un-bookish (drinks heaps, water sports in places of questionable safety).    So I guess this was a nice shoe-on-other-foot situation; a situation that showed me that my previous conclusions on the first party could indeed have a set of very valid reasons for my not being invited other than "this guy doesn't like me".

I also want to point out that I had feelings and thoughts like this:
or it schemes of passive aggressive ways that i can send a message to them that they dont matter, that im moving on.
I did think, "ha this interesting, I guess I'm the one with loads of friends now" kind of thing. I didn't linger on it though. I wanted to share that because I think it helps to know other people go through this, then the person getting that validation feeling can move forward. I hope that for you too, because man, that not getting invited really made me feel dejected.  


Is it my bad?
Looking at this, I guess something that helped was that I had a lot of other concerns I was interested in at the time (not other friends even). So when I read this:
or i feel badly about myself: "whats wrong? why dont my best friends want to hang out with or include me?".
I know that. My time around this seems to feel this way when I think people don't like me because of a character flaw.


Middle ground?
Then I recall there's loads of reasons I've probably not been invited to things, and I definitely recall specific situations where I could've invited people; but I chose not to invite them for reasons that didn't have anything to do with character. This lets me do 2 things:
  • (1) lets me off because it's probably not my "bad";and
  • (2) lets my friends off because I've not invited people for non-character reasons too.

I hope that helps you develop your own ideas about middle ground, not sending a message, and maybe even moving away from those feelings you don't like in a sensible way.
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« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2018, 09:31:24 PM »

Bryan Adams' Summer of '69 was playing in my head while I read your post... .

You could talk to them,  as you say.  What do you think is why that isn't the best way to approach it?

What's the core hurt here? Is it you and a childhood friend you've known for decades moving apart? Is there something deeper?
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« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2018, 09:58:48 PM »

Excerpt
I thought that he probably thought I wouldn't enjoy it. I didn't ask him as it felt embarrassing. There are probably parts I would enjoy, and indeed wouldn't enjoy.

this has certainly occurred to me, and i try to give the benefit of the doubt. i just cant imagine there is any doubt in this case. most of the hanging out that the two of them do is at the bars. ive been with them separately and together a million times. i accept every invite and make my own.

my impression is that its more of a spur of the moment thing... .they simply dont think to invite me, or anyone else. i get that. ive done that. its just that it happens an awful lot, in spite of me speaking up about it. not to mention, it happens a lot, to the detriment of mine and (very) best friends other commitments.

Excerpt
I wanted to share that because I think it helps to know other people go through this, then the person getting that validation feeling can move forward. I hope that for you too, because man, that not getting invited really made me feel dejected.   

it does help. intuitively, i understand no one likes feeling left out, but i start to tell myself that im insecure, needy, that other people wouldnt care, and that doesnt help.

Excerpt
Looking at this, I guess something that helped was that I had a lot of other concerns I was interested in at the time (not other friends even).

i think in terms of what i feel i need to do to detach, thats precisely what i need. its not necessarily that i need to invest less. its that i need to invest more in other areas (possibly some of both). part of my frustration is that theyre doing that, meeting new people (keeping me out), and im not. i think if i were, id care a great deal less, spend a lot less time thinking about it.
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« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2018, 10:33:02 PM »

You could talk to them,  as you say.  What do you think is why that isn't the best way to approach it?

i have talked to them. i havent said all of these things. i dont think i should tell very best friend that i have a lot of deep resentment toward him, even if i know our friendship could handle it.

ive made it clear im interested in hanging out more. asked to be invited more. made more overtures/invitations of my own. i think taking initiative is the mature way to approach it, and i think i have pretty much exhausted that at this point.

i could ask if something is wrong with our friendship. i could ask if im boring or a downer. ive known the two of them for decades. either i would know, or theyd tell me. and if i happen to be wrong about that, then i suppose that they would lie to me.

i think that all talking about it would do, however i approached it, would mean that theyd make more effort, and id make more effort, for a couple weeks/a couple times, and then things would revert again, leaving me even more frustrated.

What's the core hurt here?

the core hurt is with one of the two of them primarily, and thats my very best friend. i feel that he has let me down when i needed him most, so any little thing kind of resurfaces that. by and large, my other best friend has been there when i needed him most (it hurt to know that the two of them were even more there for each other).

mostly, its just seeing my two best friends regularly doing things without me. im not so needy that i need, or even want to be involved in anything and everything, by any means. i mean, if me and very best friend are working on music together, its not like we invite other best friend. if the two of them are riding motorcycles, getting tattoos, whatever, theres no reason for me to be part of that. if the two of them are hitting the bars regularly, something the three of us have done together many times, i cant see a good reason not to invite me.

theres also the frustration with the music thing. i get that very best friend doesnt have a lot of time. its hard to have time when youre filling up every second you get with someone else. i also get that when you dont have a lot of time, you want to use it to unwind. but thats what he does... .his energy with the band comes in spurts, then his attention goes elsewhere, then it comes back for a bit. thats frustrating, and why should i devote another second to his songs.

theres also the frustration and hurt that theyre meeting these new people, introducing them to each other, and leaving me out of that. very best friend has a new girlfriend, i guess. shes apparently buddies with other friend (and probably other friends fiance). theyll be together for a couple months, ill hear plenty about her, but ill never meet her.

Is it you and a childhood friend you've known for decades moving apart?

i dont think that we are moving apart. the three of us are as close and get along as well as we ever have. we all just went to a halloween party together, then me and other best friend turned around and went to a haunted house together.

it is that id appreciate more time and thought from them both, especially very best friend.  
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« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2018, 10:38:35 PM »

what i cant quite decide is, next time they invite me to do something, do i say no, and continue to say no.

it sure seems like cutting off my nose to spite my face. it also seems like the only way i have to communicate something is wrong, and there is (i think it would take them a while to figure it out). it also seems to be the only way i can find to detach. but it feels like that whole passive aggressive, "send a message" approach.

part of me tells me its the right thing to do. part of me tells me that the burden is on me to find a, possibly more challenging, but more mature way.
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« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2018, 10:47:49 PM »

Speaking as a recovering passive-aggressive, that approach is likely to result in others moving on,  and you being left with anger and hurt... .while they move on. 
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« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2018, 11:07:38 PM »

youre right.

i think it would bother them, a lot; i dont think theyd pry, and instead would accept it. are two guys im accusing of being thoughtless going to "see the light" and suddenly remedy things?

if i were prepared to say no, id have to live with that, and i dont think that i am.

its tough. the situation, as it is, hurts. i feel that that hurt is justified, and that theyve been thoughtless, but i feel that the hurt is my burden.

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« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2018, 01:19:51 AM »

a childhood friend you've known for decades moving apart?

i thought more about this.

i think in some ways, we are. i think we want different things and are reaching in different directions. i think thats probably been true for about ten years. i think that accepting that instead of fighting it, going in my own direction without trying to pull him along, is my middle ground to detaching. 
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« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2018, 03:04:47 PM »

Dear once removed  Welcome new member (click to insert in post)

I so understand what you are saying because I have been in similar situations.
I am someone who values friendship a lot, and I invest a lot of time, effort, ... in my friends. In the past it has happened a lot that I didn't see that same effort reciprocated and that hurt. It always made me think there was something wrong with the friendship. And unfortunately it has led me to pull away a few times.
I was in therapy until some time ago. One of the things that were addressed, is me pulling away from a friendship when I feel that something is 'wrong', when I feel that a friend 'doesn't love me', 'doesn't give me enough time', etc.
My therapist made me see that some situations that feel very uncomfortable for me in terms of friendship, are just normal reactions of people, and that sometimes I can be very strict just because I am afraid of abandonment.

It was true... .I just had never looked at it like that. Here I was, analyzing and analyzing friendships, and my therapist told me : 'look. This or this friend, is it really that bad what she did to you ? Like in the way that f.e. she stole your boyfriend and kept on being with him even though you told her you didn't want that ?' I will not forget that example because it seemed so far fetched ... but it did illustrate that sometimes I got carried away by things too quickly.

Your two friends like to hit bars, and you don't. So in this view, why wouldn't they do that together ? They know you don't like doing that, and you know it. Are there things that you all like doing ?

You are saying that you don't have a lot of friends. I read you. Have you heard of this website ?   Meetup.com
You can use it to search for activities in your area, meeting likeminded people. The main goal of it is not to find friends, but mostly to do some activity that you like, all the while not having to attend on your own. And who knows, meeting new friends there is also a possibility of course ?

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« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2018, 08:08:10 PM »

thanks for the perspective and support Fie. your therapist gives sound advice.

Your two friends like to hit bars, and you don't. So in this view, why wouldn't they do that together ? They know you don't like doing that, and you know it. Are there things that you all like doing ?

i may have over sold the bar discrepancy.

my friends and i have been to the bars hundreds of times together. they have invited me, and ive invited them; its not my first choice, but i always enjoy our time together. between that though, they get in the habit of doing it spur of the moment, and, reasonably, dont think to invite me. i wouldnt have any objection to that if... .

it didnt become this thing where a month or two go by, i barely speak to or see them, while theyre doing it every few days without a thought of inviting me. meanwhile, very best friend/band mate is either frequently having to cancel on, or otherwise neglecting our band while we work on his songs.

plus all of the other stuff, and ways i feel excluded from their lives.

there are certainly ways in which i can take initiative, and i have, and things change for a couple of weeks and then go back.

i think i reached some resolve around it all last night. i dont think theres any problem between us. i think right now, at this stage in all of our lives, the two of them simply connect better, and more closely, emotionally; more naturally gravitate toward each other. i hadnt really seen it that way, or maybe i hadnt wanted to, because the three of us are as close as can be, always have a great time, and plenty recently (i heard from other best friend today), and im confident they feel the same. but i think thats more on the surface. subconsciously, they are a better, more natural match, at least day to day.

maybe that will change, maybe it wont, but i cant fight that nor should i try. i should let it go and do my thing, let them do theirs, and do whatever the three of us do in between.
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« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2018, 07:09:53 AM »

i think right now, at this stage in all of our lives, the two of them simply connect better, and more closely, emotionally; more naturally gravitate toward each other.
This seems to me a healthy perspective. I think that someone that says this isn't insecure or needy, and even if other people don't seem to care--the person that says this isn't particularly phased by it.  

[... .] but i cant fight that nor should i try. i should let it go and do my thing, let them do theirs, and do whatever the three of us do in between.
I like your thoughts here once removed. I don't think you want to fight it--I think you want to let it go.  
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« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2018, 07:33:47 PM »

thanks gb.

This seems to me a healthy perspective.

if someone else had said it a few days ago, id have argued. me and very best friend are like brothers, have been since day one of sixth grade, and i think we still are; that will never change. however, at this time of our lives, there is more that is different about/between us than i have either been able, or willing to see. it doesnt feel great, but im not terribly threatened by seeing it. we are in different spaces and want different things right now, but our friendship(s) have a lifetime left to go. i can let go of trying to pull him in my direction, or get him to pull me in his, and just go in mine.

certainly, this post, and the ones that followed it, were written from a place(s) of hurt and frustration. they cover a wide gamut of things, and they leave even more out.

the more/most recent part of the picture isnt that big of a deal. some of it, like the music stuff, is frustrating, but it doesnt take a big deal for the totality of it all to really drive me nuts and get under my skin for a few days.

then things improve... .then they go back, and im even more hurt/frustrated without resolution. i think talking it out, and the feedback ive received, helped something click this time, and helped things start to make more sense in a way they havent before, one that helps me both accept and detach.

regarding actually doing anything beyond that, what i think does seem reasonable is that if the two of them invite me out, and i dont feel like it, not to do it, rather than get all eager and rush out to see them and then leave with the expectation of more. that doesnt have to mean ill say no a single time, necessarily. it just means letting them do them, and doing me, if thats what id truly prefer to do.

it does, however mean i will not be following up with very best friend to do music stuff again even once, the onus is very much on him especially since hes supposed to get back to me. it also means, for now, leaving my best friends unfollowed on facebook. right now i think i still need that.
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« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2018, 10:57:22 AM »

You're asking great questions, once removed

FWIW, it's normal for friendships to change over time.  You mentioned in another post you've been feeling better lately and getting more sleep.  Could some of the uncomfortable feelings you've experienced be growing pains?  Could it be you have needs for care and support that you're only now recognizing/feeling that aren't being fully met by your current array of relationships? 

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« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2018, 11:28:53 AM »

I hear ya when you say that it's embarrassing and difficult to admit to yourself and to write out in the forum that when you feel left out, you get into a lot of emotional turmoil! I can relate to that a lot, I think it bothered me more when I was younger, but it still bothers me to this day. And in particular when two friends who haven't made time/effort to spend time with you, spend time with others that you've introduced them to! And seeing that show up on social media is particularly triggering! I'm so glad that you were able to overcome the discomfort of sharing your situation because I can totally relate, and hopefully getting it off your chest has offered some relief. I struggle with feeling ashamed about my emotions and reactions, and feel self critical and try to avoid admitting to myself and others about how I feel in those situations. I'm working with my T to reframe those struggles with more self compassion and self acceptance. To hold myself to more realistic standards and not devote so much of my time, attention, and energy towards my inner critic and the stories my inner critic creates about me, and why other people would dislike me and want to avoid me.

Part of me feels like social media is simply a toxic space. I wrote a while back in the forum that I was struggling with loosing most of my oldest and closest friends after breaking up with my ex. It felt really triggering to see that people stay friends, and enable/support my ex I had confided in them about the emotional abuse and struggling with the ways he had treated me and how it had severely hurt and damaged me. I decided to unfollow those particular friends and still struggle with rebuilding my life without the social support, and the pain of distrust and fear and defensiveness I have about connecting with new people. While I used to try to get groups of friends together (the more the merrier) I have shifted towards reaching out to friends individually to spend time one on one. I'm finding spending time alone deepens my relationships and allows for more meaningful conversations and is less stress/anxiety/insecurity inducing. I also prefer to be alone nowadays (anxiety/self-loathing making spending time with other challenging and difficult) so while I am striving not to isolate, I enjoy time with others less. I acknowledge that I am experiencing difficulties and am not as fun, warm, loving, and intelligent as I was prior to the emotional abuse and the collapse of my mental health and overall well being. I am trying to value the time I have alone, to build more meaningful relationships with those one on one deeper conversations with a small handful of people- focusing less on just trying to have a best friend who prioritizes me in the ways I prioritize them, but rather having a few friends I can reach out to who share some of my interests, who are kind and supportive, who are thoughtful and willing to talk about their struggles and my struggles in authentic and vulnerable ways. Everything feels much more challenging now that I'm in the midst of trying to process and transform and face the abuse and trauma, and facing the ways the I've changed and turned me into a bitter, hateful, exhausted, unmotivated, and unhappy person. However on the bright side I have become more honest with myself and others, and been able to develop a few friendships that really help me out. I try not to be too dependent on them and to allow their desire to spend time with me to dictate my self worth, though it's hard not to feel possessive when it's a rare person that is able to help me feel heard, supported, and accepted, and that comfort means so much to me. I'm trying to take baby steps towards offering comfort and validation to myself, and keep myself occupied with nourishing and enjoyable things here and there, and trying to allow myself to see this a long term, gradual shift that will have it's ups and downs, instead of simply cycling the same thoughts that I am not worthy, that I am not deserving of the friendships in my life, that I have little to offer to others, and that I am a burden to others. I'm certainly in a different place, but one of the most painful things to see is old friends who I love and cherish being enamored with my toxic ex and cutting them out of my life because of it. Seeing him out there and enjoying himself with people I love and respect makes me feel betrayed, excluded, invalidated for my experiences, and like there are no consequences for all his terrible actions/behaviors. And realizing the love and respect I had for those people are not grounded in the current reality of them not being there for me when I needed them.

The few people I manage to have in my life in the present have met and some hang out and now have deeper connections with each other than me. But I still value the connections I have with them, and try not to let my ego, insecurity and possessiveness make me bitter, resentful, distant or critical of them. Instead I'm trying to channel my desire to love and accept myself, and to focus on my own growing and healing. It is very difficult, and to feel unlovable and unworthy, and rejected and abandoned are extremely painful. In some ways social media allows me to stay connected, communicate, express myself, and make plans with friends. But it also allows me to compare myself to others, compare my relationships with others to others'. But isolating myself is not the answer. For now I am trying to have more than one or two relationships, and to have one-on-one time with those people to build positive memories and associations I can reflect on when I'm feeling poorly. And to try to be honest with others about my struggles while framing them in a more positive light. For instance "right now I've been really struggling with xyz so now i'm trying to abc instead". Acknowledging some of the unpleasant feelings about rejection, exclusion, and hurt, while also reaffirming some thought patterns that might serve my well being in a more nourishing, accepting, and energizing/motivating way.

Not sure if that made a ton of sense, or is helpful to your situation, but it was certainly helpful for me to recognize that others might be feeling the same way as me and that I can choose to approach things differently and to expand my thoughts beyond the old patterns, and incorporate some new thoughts/associations in those situations too.
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« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2018, 12:39:25 PM »

hey Insom!

Could some of the uncomfortable feelings you've experienced be growing pains?

sort of. i would say ive had the pressure of the need to get out there and build a life for many years, along with the frustration of not being able to do anything about it. its only now that im able to do more about it, but if you dont have your best friends as part of that (and theyre doing, on the surface, at least some of the things i want to do like meeting new people), its difficult to know where to start.

the beef with them (more with one than the other) is long standing, and i could have used more support at the time, but things have kind of come to a head.
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« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2018, 01:46:55 PM »

I hear ya when you say that it's embarrassing and difficult to admit to yourself and to write out in the forum that when you feel left out, you get into a lot of emotional turmoil!

it is. theres an element of "hey everybody, listen to how needy i am!" 

im learning/trying to let my guard down a little in that regard. i cant be in better touch with others, get good feedback and perspective, by just denying my needs, or my resentments.

i do know that everyone hates being left out, and has (to varying extents) a lot of these thoughts when they are, which is why i wanted to come out with it all, but at the same time i think i demonize my own thoughts and feelings, tell myself im overreacting, too sensitive, insecure, kick myself for bad mouthing my best friends, and of course feel too dependent on them, like i should be getting my  Cursing - won't cause site restrictions at Starbucks (click to insert in post) together by myself. theres some truth to the last part though.

hopefully getting it off your chest has offered some relief.

ive vented about it privately to others many times over the years. what distinguishes this time is that i think ive found both clarity and resolve. the experience with my ex taught me some things about detaching. it doesnt come from the absence of the other person, or with time. it comes from (the stages of detachment) probing the feelings, perspective, looking at your role in it all (i think id done that when i took more initiative, but i did it in a different sense here), and facing some central truths that may be obscured by all of the different feelings.

To hold myself to more realistic standards and not devote so much of my time, attention, and energy towards my inner critic and the stories my inner critic creates about me, and why other people would dislike me and want to avoid me.

i can certainly relate to that tin. i try to manage impressions very carefully. realistically, im far more critical of myself than anyone is of me, and i imagine the same is true for you.

I wrote a while back in the forum that I was struggling with loosing most of my oldest and closest friends after breaking up with my ex. It felt really triggering to see that people stay friends, and enable/support my ex I had confided in them about the emotional abuse and struggling with the ways he had treated me and how it had severely hurt and damaged me.

i can understand that. a big value of mine is "loyalty" to friends and family. granted, at times, that hasnt necessarily manifested in the healthiest or maturest of ways. sometimes it has meant feeling that everyone should take my side, and go to lengths for me as i would them. and sometimes that has meant going to lengths that were not my place to go. quite frankly i still have unrealistic/rigid ideals about that value.

i think its pretty human to be peeved at a friend who smiles at/interacts with someone who has hurt us. for me, there are thoughts (not necessarily "beliefs") like "what is wrong with you that you dont see in this person what i do".

it really irked me that my very best friend went for/with the girl i saw, and that my other best friend joined in, the three of them becoming bff. in fairness though, i never talked to them much about her, though i did hold some hard feelings toward her as a person, and wondered why they didnt see that in her (same reason i didnt, probably).

the minute my very best friend texted me to tell me he ran into her, i knew he was not only pretending not to like her, but was seconds away from approaching her, and even pursuing her. so a couple of days later, he asked my permission to see her.

now, i could write an entire essay on my thoughts on that alone. we arent in high school anymore. if you think that there might be a problem, to me, it shows higher character to simply not act on it, than to put the burden on the person there might be a problem with. so i told him im not touching this, that he can make his own decisions. he responded that he didnt expect to hang out with her regularly or even want to. i knew that was BS, and that bothers me far more than the fact that he saw her. he went out of his way, twice, to BS me about it and to make it my problem.

that was all some months ago now, but a month or so back, he and i are hanging out together, and he tells me "i never said anything because it didnt seem like you wanted to talk about it but i  Cursing - won't cause site restrictions at Starbucks (click to insert in post) that girl".

its hard to even know what to do with that statement. he proceeds to tell me in detail about how he dated her, then was put off by her, and broke it off.

sigh. and then i recall the time that very best friend was pursuing a girl, other best friend zoomed in, had a one night stand with her, wrote all about it on social media, and all was fine between them.

I have shifted towards reaching out to friends individually to spend time one on one.

as an introvert, and a home body, this is certainly my preference. ive tried to adapt because i realize it may not be everyone elses, but if thats what your friends prefer, run with it.

focusing less on just trying to have a best friend who prioritizes me in the ways I prioritize them, but rather having a few friends I can reach out to who share some of my interests, who are kind and supportive, who are thoughtful and willing to talk about their struggles and my struggles in authentic and vulnerable ways.

definitely. gotta put our eggs (needs) in more than one basket.
 
However on the bright side I have become more honest with myself and others, and been able to develop a few friendships that really help me out. I try not to be too dependent on them and to allow their desire to spend time with me to dictate my self worth, though it's hard not to feel possessive when it's a rare person that is able to help me feel heard, supported, and accepted, and that comfort means so much to me.

i can relate a lot to this too. part of growing up has meant realizing i sometimes need to communicate my needs in a straight forward matter, and accepting, as well as trying to respect "i wont" or "i cant". 

strong thoughts and feelings dont make any of this stuff easy... .

Not sure if that made a ton of sense, or is helpful to your situation

it did. it was  . i appreciate you sharing, and your thoughts. very relatable, very human.
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« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2018, 02:08:12 PM »

OR,


I don't think you sound needy at all. Human maybe ... yes.

Excerpt
so a couple of days later, he asked my permission to see her.

Is there a way you can see this as a quite respectful attitude towards you ?

x
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« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2018, 02:10:24 PM »

i can see that he might have seen it that way.

in the manner that he went about it, i cant see it that way.
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« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2018, 08:44:21 AM »

i can understand that. a big value of mine is "loyalty" to friends and family. [... .] quite frankly i still have unrealistic/rigid ideals about that value.
I think there might be some value here to consider exploring once removed.   I think loyalty can be tricky and even more so if you have quite sticky views about it.

it really irked me that my very best friend went for/with the girl i saw, and that my other best friend joined in, the three of them becoming bff.
I appreciate a bit of what this is like. I dated a woman, it was a messy breakup with a lot of relationship complications afterward--then one of my closest friends decided to pursue her. I felt for a long time like I was betrayed by the both of them: her the relationship, and him the friendship. They started dating and I stopped hanging out with him and our mutual friends. I stopped talking to her because the scale tipped enough for me to stop trying with her.

definitely. gotta put our eggs (needs) in more than one basket.
I mean this in a supportive way--I think it would benefit you a lot to expand your social circle. At some point when I had "enough" friends that were close "enough", it made life much easier for me. Life seemed to become easier to handle. E.g., when people I cared less about did or said things that could be interpreted as hurtful, then it became much easier to do things like understand why they did or said those things, or just write it off and let it go as water under the bridge. Things don't seem to matter as much when you have other people you can count on. You're probably already trying to put yourself out there with book clubs and stuff, and yeah as a working adult I think it can be difficult sometimes, but I think it pays off--just keep plugging away at it.  
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« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2018, 12:59:19 PM »

Excerpt
i would say ive had the pressure of the need to get out there and build a life for many years, along with the frustration of not being able to do anything about it. its only now that im able to do more about it, but if you dont have your best friends as part of that (and theyre doing, on the surface, at least some of the things i want to do like meeting new people), its difficult to know where to start.

Alas, I can relate all too well to feeling disappointed by friends.

What do you do when you have emotional needs that your friends, for whatever reason, are unable to meet?

I've spent more than a little time this year mediating on this question.  The answer that's working for me is to lower my expectations.  To be clear, this hasn't meant lowering my needs.  If anything, I'm taking them more seriously by acknowledging them.

I like gotbushels' eggs-in-basket suggestion a lot.  What's helping me is to widen my circle a little bit by letting a few new experiences and new people in.  As the circle has widened, I've been able to feel more reciprocity.  I'm giving more of my attention and receiving same in return.  And because I'm relying less on friends who've disappointed me in the past, I'm able to enjoy them more for who they are.  They've become both less important to me and more appreciated, more loved, by me simultaneously (which I think this pretty cool!).

Anyway, as an introvert, I can relate with how daunting it can feel to reach out.  You've mentioned your church as a community you feel comfortable in, though I understand it may not fully be meeting your needs. Is there another low key activity or community you can picture adding to the mix and feeling good about?



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« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2018, 01:16:40 PM »

I like gotbushels' eggs-in-basket suggestion a lot.
... .
You've mentioned your church as a community you feel comfortable in, though I understand it may not fully be meeting your needs. Is there another low key activity or community you can picture adding to the mix and feeling good about?

i "officially" became a member at my church yesterday morning. ive been there for four years as part of the praise band, but still technically belonged to my old church.

when my church has new members, theres always a big line to greet and welcome them in, so that was nice. its always been a warm, welcoming, and inclusive church since the day i arrived.

one of my next steps, as im ready, will be to meet with either my pastor, or the youth minister (who is lead singer and acoustic guitar player in the praise band) and ask about where i can get more involved. i think thats one of the first, easiest steps to being more connected, being part of something bigger than myself, filling up my time, and possibly making new friends, as well as building the friendships i have.

another is to get a job, which probably wont be able to happen until after the holidays. hard to say whether or not that will directly lead to making friends, but i never underestimate the fact that new opportunities can bring... .new opportunities.

im thinking about joining some cover bands, that get paying gigs. two birds with one stone, really.

id like to go back to school, though thats a bit further away... .need a job to pay for it first.

had a good time at a concert the other night with yet another best friend who is part of the group. it was nice. he has very limited time, so we only see each other every few months (would you believe ive never met his kids either?), but ill see him a couple of times in march.

i did hear from very best friend the other day. just basically telling me he still hasnt been able to find time to get together, and that this week would be busy. i thanked him for keeping me posted, but with the holidays coming, and not knowing for sure but being reasonably certain hes still regularly going out with other best friend/not inviting me, i dont expect anything to change any time soon. it has been easier to let it go.
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« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2018, 08:20:20 PM »

Hello OR

Glad to read your post about friendships.  Sorry to hear about the struggles, I have had the same experiences you describe and reiterate what others said; you are not less nor should feel bad about discussing with the board.  Glad you did . .  .

I was thinking as I read your post, what if you had told your friends that they are being jerks by not inviting you and that you were ticked off?  What do you think they would do or say?  Scorn you?  Push you away?  Sounds like they were already doing that.  Is part of the tailspin an attempt to avoid negative outcomes by not expressing yourself?  And inadvertently expressing, via silence, that you are not worthy and accept their behavior?

Openly challenging our friendships and the actions of our friends, defines how we want to be treated by others.  Not communicating what we don't want from our friends communicates what we are willing to accept from others.  Something subtle about human nature is that we all read the non-verbals and the non-spoken words just as clear as the spoken.

What do you think about telling your friends - in a non-measured spontaneous way - that you want to be treated differently?

JRB
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« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2018, 11:21:23 PM »

Hi, Once Removed

I've had several times in my life when the friendship dynamics got weird. This usually seemed to happen when there were three of us. I think there's a saying from the I Ching that if three travelers set out together, two will form a bond and the other will go his own way.

I don't think that means that we have to always feel left out in a triangle. The two really great friend relationships I had were in college, and then again when I was a young mom, and those really flourished when there were four of us instead of three.

Two of the four were closer than the others in both cases. They would get together just the two of them some times. Or sometimes it would be just me and one of the other three. If this happened, no one ever felt like the exclusion was personal. It really relieved all the pressure. We were all different and so sometimes two might want to do something and the other two didn't. Two might find something funny, the other two don't. Even if three go out on a whim, and one doesn't the momentary "what about me?" feeling passed fairly quickly.

Even so, two of the friends continued to keep a Monday get-together without the other two. I happened to be having a bad day one Monday and asked if I could bring my kids over. We had a great time. They invited me to come over any Monday I felt like, and I said, "Thanks! But, no, this seems like your own good tradition. Let's not mess with it." I honestly felt that way.

Is there a chance that you could invite someone to one of the outings and introduce them to your other two friends? One, it could communicate that you like and value your friends enough to want to introduce them to someone else you like and value. And it could be an interesting chance to see them through someone else's eyes, for positive or negative. If you don't actually like the way they act or their flakiness, then you'll know it's not just you. Or your friends may see you in a new way, too -- through the new person's eyes--  and remember why they liked you in the first place.

It may not breathe new life into the existing friendships, but at least you can observe yourself not being needy, and being open to changes, rather than having to reassure yourself. Being able to reassure oneself can be healthy, but it can also be lonely if you have to do it too often.

It's not just you-- friendships are harder to find these days than they used to be.
G2B
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« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2018, 03:10:07 PM »

hey JRBM! its good to see you again.

Glad to read your post about friendships.  Sorry to hear about the struggles, I have had the same experiences you describe and reiterate what others said; you are not less nor should feel bad about discussing with the board.  Glad you did . .  .

thanks. they have been hard feelings to work through. being left out sucks.

I was thinking as I read your post, what if you had told your friends that they are being jerks by not inviting you and that you were ticked off?

its not that i think they are jerks any more than they think im a jerk in the event i hang out with one of them and dont invite the other. the difference to me is theyve been doing a great deal of that for the past year or so, and it wasnt immediately clear why i wouldnt be invited more often.

Is part of the tailspin an attempt to avoid negative outcomes by not expressing yourself? 

when very best friend texted me about them hanging out i mentioned it would be nice to be invited. he was embarrassed, and it was clear he got the message. very best friend and i discussed spending a lot more time together, the three of us. it happened for a couple of weeks, then they fell back into their thing. part of the responsibility is mine: it falls on me to be proactive, and invite them to more places, reach out. i did that for a while.

Openly challenging our friendships and the actions of our friends, defines how we want to be treated by others.  Not communicating what we don't want from our friends communicates what we are willing to accept from others. 

point well taken. at a certain point, i think i have to accept it, and then do what i will. i cant and wouldnt want to force them to include me more often. i dont want pity or obligatory invites.

What do you think about telling your friends - in a non-measured spontaneous way - that you want to be treated differently?

at this point, im more inclined to let them go in their direction, and go in my own - not drop or ditch them, but not try to build a life around them. find new people to hang out with. weve been friends for 20 years... .things will find their way back, or, i suppose they wont.
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« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2018, 03:35:05 PM »

two will form a bond and the other will go his own way.

https://thebowencenter.org/theory/eight-concepts/

im the outsider 

The two really great friend relationships I had were in college, and then again when I was a young mom, and those really flourished when there were four of us instead of three.

historically, thats more how it has been. theres yet another best friend in this picture, but hes largely been out of the picture for some years. it balanced things out. after he got very busy with his family (and lives half an hour away), it was largely just me and one of the others from my OP, or the three of us occasionally. in the past year though, its been mostly them, and im the outsider.

Two of the four were closer than the others in both cases. They would get together just the two of them some times. Or sometimes it would be just me and one of the other three. If this happened, no one ever felt like the exclusion was personal. It really relieved all the pressure. We were all different and so sometimes two might want to do something and the other two didn't.

historically this is how its been too. i mentioned the band thing... .thats strictly me and very best friend, at the exclusion of other best friend. its never been a pressure point. we all found time for each other, or i would hang out with just "other best friend", or just the two of them would hang out. no problem. the last time the three of us tried to get together, i was invited to get a tattoo with them. i wasnt interested. i still appreciated the invite, and they understood. however, unless ive brought it up, the past year has been mostly the two of them, or occasionally, me and one of them or the other.

Is there a chance that you could invite someone to one of the outings and introduce them to your other two friends?

its a terrific idea, but unfortunately, no, there really isnt anybody. there are really only two other guys in my life. one is in the band as well, and hes otherwise busy, and/or perhaps not interested. i only see him once a week for band stuff, plus we hang out. the other is the other best friend i mentioned. any of us only ever see him a few times a year, he just doesnt have time, and has other priorities.

It's not just you-- friendships are harder to find these days than they used to be.
G2B

they are. i think thats where i have to put my eggs, though, if i want to have a social life. i think the two friends from my OP are at a stage in their life where they just gravitate toward each other more naturally. i can fight that, or i can gravitate somewhere else.

other best friend is getting married soon. hes not going to be so available to hit the bars. things may change. i think either very best friend and i will gravitate back toward each other, or we will go further in our different directions.
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« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2018, 03:42:25 PM »

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This thread has reached its posting limit, and is therefore locked. Please feel free to continue the discussion in a new thread. Thanks for your participation.
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