Took a video of her behavior this morning - 2

[defogging]

Yep, she's very controlling financially.  I think that's why she's been spending more lately.  I was very happy a few months ago that our middle child transitioned from pre-school to kindergarten because that saved us $1,000/month.  Shared my happiness with her and guess what, now she spends that $1,000 and still complains that we're poor!  Lesson learned... .don't over-share info!

I have the upper hand when it comes to finances in our house, which helps.  We both make good salaries, nearly identical amount, so she doesn't have much leverage to control everything if the income is equal.

My trump card is she has an architectural background, I'm an engineer with a MBA, focused on finance.  Guess who is much better at understanding math and finance?     

She's never tried to take complete control away, it would make zero sense for her to run our finances and at least she understands that.  What she tries to do is verbally corner me into not having any money leftover for myself, but I'm not giving in to that b.s. anymore.

P.S.  Had another 5 o'clock Charlie over lunch.  D5 said, "let's pretend we're at a restaurant!"  uBPDw said (snarky tone) "oh honey, we can't go out to eat anytime soon".  I thought of 5 o'clock Charlie and smiled to myself.  

[Red5]

P.S.  Had another 5 o'clock Charlie over lunch.  D5 said, "let's pretend we're at a restaurant!"  uBPDw said (snarky tone) "oh honey, we can't go out to eat anytime soon".  I thought of 5 o'clock Charlie and smiled to myself.  

LMAO !

... .got to hand it to "charlie"... .he is persistent !

Yeah, ole' "five o'clock charlie"... .he's always around... .sometimes I would "get a feeling", about "her mood", "her emotion"... .and I tell myself to "get down, shut up" !

Red5

[defogging]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7Aof9CFsR8

, great clip that describes my life at home perfectly!

BTW - I read that story about your fishing trip with the BIL, wow!  Sometimes just coming on this board and reading the other crazy experiences that people have is better than therapy.

Thanks for your feedback today Red5, you've really helped bring my spirits up.  Your description of how uBPDw is running out of things to complain about - thus 5 o'clock Charlie shows up, and your description of how finances really reflect on enmeshment and control are spot on.  What I'm seeing now is the video incident has led in the direction of finances and "Charlie" showing up because she is trying to regain control of the relationship.  She hasn't mentioned the video since yesterday.

In retrospect, I'm really glad I took that video and suffered the "consequences".  It further reinforces that she is all bark, no bite, and there is zero reason to live in fear.  Of course it ain't over yet, but today is much better than the last two days.

[defogging]

Another quick update:

My sister emailed me a voice message that uBPDw left for her this afternoon so I could hear it.  It was two minutes long, and was uBPDw telling sister how uBPDw wanted sister's assistance in getting me help for my troubles.  Apparently I'm having career problems and not doing well in general.  Honestly, it's spooky how convincing her voice sounded on the recording.

The irony:
1.  My wife just got demoted from a high level position and has had poor performance reviews prior to this.
2.  My job is fine, very stable.  My current position will end (due to project funding) but my company has asked me to stay on in a different capacity after that.  I've had strong performance reviews all along.  I have several companies that I've been in conversations with that want to hire me.  I also receive multiple headhunter calls a week, as the economy is strong for my field right now.

The craziness never ends!  Thankfully, my sister is aware of all this and sees through it easily.  She is going to speak with uBPDw and let her talk, then get back to me, probably tomorrow.  I spoke with my sister for awhile about it, and the smear campaign has become sort of comical at this point.

Due to this new development I texted uBPDw and said I would rather have our financial discussion over lunch sometime next week.  (Based on advice from a previous T that told us not to have big conversations before bed)  She is clearly still in attack mode so I'm not interested in engaging with her tonight.  I do want to have the financial talk, it just needs to be at a time when she is calm.

[Notwendy]

I agree that the main concern is the children's mental state. However, your wife is going to react and it is eerie how familiar your wife's behavior is to me.

I don't have much interest in discussing my BPD mother with others she knows, but this issue came up when my father was ill and I had concerns about his home situation. Because she knew I had discussed some of her issues with his health care team, she then told several people I was "seriously disturbed" so that they would not believe me.

When she does this, she also tells them not to tell me what he said, but one of them was my husband and he did tell me. She also called my in laws to share her "concerns" about me. She was shocked when I found out.

I don't doubt your reasons, but it seems your wife is embarrassed by the video and so would seek to discredit you as a means of self defense. She's feeling like a victim in this situation and this drives her behavior. I think it is wise to not have discussions at night. I don't know if she would process any discussions about finances when she is in this emotional state.

[defogging]

it is eerie how familiar your wife's behavior is to me.

NotWendy - Would you mind sharing some advice with me, based on your experience, as to the best way to approach this with the kids?

I know at some point I need to clue them in to the fact that mom is not mentally healthy, but I think they're not ready yet.  I keep wondering when is the right time, and how I should go about it.  I can tell they are picking up on things, but are they ready?

My ultimate goal is to break the cycle and set them on a path toward a healthy life.  I don't want them to think any of this is their fault.

[Notwendy]

That's a tough one to answer and I think it might help to have the kids in counseling and have a third party explain it. The reason for that is that it would keep you out of triangulating with your wife, which she may possibly do since she is already doing it with others.

The parenting board is likely to have some wisdom about this as well.

In my parents' era, there was less known about BPD and no internet.  I think one of the most damaging aspects of my family life was keeping mom a secret. We were not allowed to speak about her and our observations were invalidated. We were expected to act as if Mom was normal.

By about age 10, it was pretty clear something was going on with her. Raging, screaming, trashing the house in the evenings. Yet, the next day, all was calm, if we asked about it, we were told nothing happened or something like "all couples have disagreements".

Another poster posted about the power of validation ( a book on it). Validate your kids' feelings without directing the conversation to their mom. Yes, it was scary when Mom was mad. Yes, you saw what you saw.

Although I didn't have the same dynamics with my own kids and their grandmother, by the time they were old enough to understand a high school psychology course, I discussed BPD with them and they know their grandmother has BPD. I think this would have helped me.  As a teen, I resented her. I may have felt less resentment towards her if I understood she had a mental illness and not taken the things she said to me as personally. I am also open with my kids about my own co-dependency issues and that I seek professional help for them. I want them to know that it is OK to seek help if they ever felt a need for that.

I'd get professional help for the kids and avoid the drama triangle. I hope this helps.

[defogging]

Thanks NotWendy, that is very helpful.  I've been thinking they will need
counseling at some point, but we're not there yet.  I expect a lot more friction as the kids get older and more independent, I think I'll know when it's time to get therapy for them.

But this leaves me with a question:  How do I get a therapist to explain BPD if she is not diagnosed?  I guess I could explain my suspicions to the therapist and then let the kids discuss their relationship with mom on their own, let them describe the behavior they see.  Or maybe not bring up my suspicions?  Who knows, there is time to figure out an approach.

[Notwendy]

I think a therapist can help them deal with the behaviors. It may not need a name, and it may be better for them not to have a name ( and then go to their mom- hey mom you have BPD ).

Since they are under 18, you would likely at least be involved with speaking to their therapist about some of this and you could explain your concerns. The T will want to hear their concerns.

One possible issue is if their mother enlisted them to secrecy. My mother does that with others-  enlists them to secrecy with her. The kids may feel they can not talk to the T, but you and the T can assure them that this is a safe place to talk - safe for them, and safe for their mother- that nothing they say would be hurtful to them or her.

I am not a T but I imagine a T with skills in this type of dynamic would know how to approach this with children.

[Fian]

For a different perspective, I personally don't think it is a good idea to take videos of your spouse and then send them to others.  If your goal was to only show her or to store it in case of future divorce proceedings, then fine.  But it is a major escalation to start publicly showing her flaws to the world.  Hey, I might even support you if you were using it as a way to manage her rages,  i.e. I am going to film you and send it - as a way for her to consider her behavior when the film is rolling - but you didn't even give her advance warning on that.

As an Asperger, I am not worried about what others think of me.  So if a person were to take a video of me and post it, I don't think it would bother me much.  However, I have come to realize that I am not normal, and I should not use myself as a measuring stick on what is acceptable.  Most people do worry about what others think of them, and it would be very difficult to live with a spouse that shamed you and didn't care about it.  Spouses should try to avoid bringing shame to their spouse.  Marriage should be a safe haven; not a place where every weakness is amplified.

[Bnonymous]

Speaking here as a member (taking my ambassador hat off for this post), I agree with Fian.

I think videoing your wife is likely to be harmful to the relationship. I think it is likely to damage feelings of trust and safety and to cause an increase in toxic-shame generated behaviours.

I understand that it was not your intention to publicly shame her, but I think that is how she is likely to interpret it. And I don't think she's alone in that either. I think a lot of people would feel seriously violated by being videoed when distressed.

(Like Fian, I am posting in the interests of offering an alternative perspective. I am not claiming to be "right" here - just inviting you to look at how there is more than one way to view this.)

[defogging]

Fian and Bnonymous - I understand your viewpoints and don't necessarily disagree with them.  I don't like that this is my situation, that I felt it's necessary to show my family what is really going on.  If I had a healthy marriage where I could trust her to support me, I would never dream of sending a video of her to others.

My situation is that I can't trust her, she's proven it time and time again.  The smear campaigns have been going on for several years and I've never stooped to her level as they were happening.  For awhile now, people have been told that I'm emotionally abusive, an alcoholic, stealing money from her, etc.  This has all gotten back to me, from her FOO and mine, and I told my side of things but no one knows who to believe.  Allowing it to happen and playing nice only got me more isolated, and my reputation further damaged.

The one point where I will disagree with you is the notion that I'm somehow obligated to keep her abuse private.  I refuse to sit idly while I'm being character assassinated.

[Bnonymous]

Thank you for your thoughtful response, defogging.

I can see how you felt driven to it by desperation.

I don't think anyone has suggested that you're obligated to keep the abuse private - I don't think that would be healthy either - abuse flourishes in darkness and bringing it into the light is important. For one thing, bringing it into the light is a necessary check/balance on the isolation and distortion that abusers employ. I don't advocate keeping abuse private/secret.

I just think there is a difference between telling people what's happening and sending them videos. I understand that you saw the video as the only way to bring objectivity into a he-said she-said situation. I can sympathise with that. But I think it has more downsides that upsides overall.

It's also not so much a matter of evaluating what you did, but about being aware of and sensitive to how your wife may feel about it. What's done is done. But, if it has led to an increase in toxic shame or a diminishment of trust, then those are issues that will need to be faced and addressed when going forward. Being able to see alternative points of view might help when it comes to handling the fall-out.

[Enabler]

Hey defogging,

There are so so so so so so so... .so so many parts of this thread which are ringing true with my personal situation. If I might share some of my lessons learnt:

1) Share information ONLY when it's powerful, leaking out 'I've done', 'I know' is weak and ultimately just means she will learn to evade being caught that way. It will not 'cure' the behaviour, it will just change it. Every time you tell her "I know", "I have evidence", you send shock-waves of shame reverberating around her body, her instinctive response is to attack anything associated with that shame... .and any head off any destination of that shame i.e. your family. She is a one man military tactician genius, hell bent on protecting her core shame.
2) Be a data gatherer
3) Determine your priorities. From what you have said, your primary concern is that of your children's mental health and breaking the inter-generational cycle. I am not saying that a divorce is the right or wrong thing, but without irrefutable evidence of seriously bad parenting, what do you think the likelihood of you gaining custody are? Although one parent providing a health example of a happy household is good, she would most likely gain greater custody and the chaos likely to continue behind closed doors, especially given you suggest that parental alienation is practically nailed on.
4) Your children are not stupid, they know that their mothers behaviour is odd compared to other adults. The best way in my opinion to prevent an inter-generational cycle is to provide an arena with which the children are allowed to acknowledge this oddness to a non-judgemental person. The children are likely to feel that they are blamed for many things they KNOW are not their fault, their little brains are already screaming "WTH?" yet they are in an environment where this behaviour is normalised. I find that talking about my own failings is a good way to allow them to explore their mothers oddities. This is not something that happens very quickly, and I will admit there's a fine line between creating a forum for discussion and parental alienation (by me)... .Children need to know they can trust what they see, rather than what they are told by a pwBPD. This requires a huge amount of confidence by them.
5) Regarding your finances, her narrative is, "I NEED these things therefore my husband should provide them. Any husband who says he loves me would provide these things irrespective of our financial position". It's prudent to keep any financial improvements under your hat, this is not a partnership, it is in essence a parasitic relationship. Her wanting control over money is not about controlling you, it's about her desire to quench her unending NEED (poorly defined). Being legally bound to your wife is the financial equivalent to being handcuffed to someone who likes to electrocute themselves... .her liability is your liability.   
6) Owning full financial control in her mind is owning all control over spending. As we know, control should come with responsibility, responsibility comes with the possibility of error and failure... .this cannot happen, so, you own responsibility, she owns control. Therefore her having full financial control and responsibility will NEVER happen.
7) By recording your wife and then publicly shaming her to your family this could be interpreted even by healthy adults as abusive. It's an impossible position to be in and I'm stuck about the best way to proceed. I think there is a difference between 'broadcasting' it and sharing it with 1 confident. I personally struggled with a situation where I accessed her whatsap and emails ONLY because I stumbled on evidence of an affair which she had denied. Healthy adults did not consider my desire to establish the truth when I had been lied to, only that I had invaded someones privacy... .even if that privacy meant she was able to manipulate and contort my truth/reality and by accessing her communications I was able to open my eyes to the truth. I guess a bit like Edward Snowden... .criminal or crusader?

I feel like you need to take a step back and start thinking more long term about your objectives, think less about what is 'right' and be more 'outcome orientated'. 'Right', 'fair' & 'partnership' were lost long ago, this is about where you are now, what you can do to get where you and your kids want to be. Kicking the hornets nest repeatedly is just going to lead to you and the kids getting stung.

We're all here for you buddy.

Enabler

[Enabler]

I refuse to sit idly while I'm being character assassinated.

Why?

[Fian]

The issue is that you didn't release the video after an event where she falsely accused you to your family.  You took it, telling her it was for her viewing only, and then immediately sent it to your family.  Also, if she accuses you of x, how does showing that she does y prove your point?

I also think you need to decide your long term goal with your family.  If you want a divorce, then I suppose it doesn't matter what you do.  If you plan to be in the relationship for years, then the goal should be taking steps to minimize drama in the relationship.

One final thought.  I think you are putting her in the driver's seat.  She does bad thing x, so you do bad thing y.  She isn't going to stop doing bad things because you started doing bad things.  The advantage that the non-BPD has over the BPD is we have the ability to control our actions much better than they.  If you get into a mud throwing contest, you are playing the game that BPD know very well.  As the old adage goes, "Don't argue with an idiot.  They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."  You can replace idiot with various other types of people too and the adage still works.

[Red5]

Enabler wrote... .From what you have said, your primary concern is that of your children's mental health and breaking the inter-generational cycle. I am not saying that a divorce is the right or wrong thing, but without irrefutable evidence of seriously bad parenting, what do you think the likelihood of you gaining custody are?

... .Although one parent providing a health example of a happy household is good, she would most likely gain greater custody and the chaos likely to continue behind closed doors, especially given you suggest that parental alienation is practically nailed on.

... .Your children are not stupid, they know that their mothers behaviour is odd compared to other adults. The best way in my opinion to prevent an inter-generational cycle is to provide an arena with which the children are allowed to acknowledge this oddness to a non-judgemental person.

... .The children are likely to feel that they are blamed for many things they KNOW are not their fault, their little brains are already screaming "WTH?" yet they are in an environment where this behaviour is normalised.

... .Children need to know they can trust what they see, rather than what they are told by a pwBPD. This requires a huge amount of confidence by them.

A few things... .
*In my first marriage, I stayed for the kids... .this period was about the last eleven years of the total twenty- one years we were married... .and I can concur, through actual experience, ."kids know"!... .my children from my first marriage are in their mid to late twenties now, not counting my autistic Son.

*They both have thanked me for what I tried to do, and that was take care of my family, both my estranged wife, and as well them... .and I can see my efforts (sacrifice) in the way they conduct their lives today. No, not an easy thing, "to stay" with a disordered spouse, it was tough... it almost killed me... but I could not bear the thought of leaving them with her... absolutely not... .thus I broke the multi-generational cycle of abuse... .in my family, my children  ... .we are talking about child sexual abuse here, in my ex's foo... .multi-generational... .and I prevented it from happening in my family... .to my own children, should I had chosen to leave that marriage, so I stayed, until she left me... and the kids.

Fast forward ->
*Then I met current uBPDw, this has been going on for eleven years also (what's up with the number eleven?)... .so when we met, and started dating, she also had two children of her own, both grown and gone, and own their own now, and both married, in fact the D33 is on her third (3rd) marriage (hmmm).

*So, as I began to get to know them from afar... .and as the relationship with their Mom turned into marriage, and she began to dysregulate, and founder, acting out... .etc'... .her own two children did approached me, on several occasions... .and they told me, ."you are a 'saint' (yeah?) for putting up with her, we don't know how you do it... and if you one day decide that you cant take it anymore... we'll both understand"... ."she's always been like this, she used to do this, that and the other to us when we were growing up"... .yes, that really happened, on several occasions... .and in fact it happened again two weeks ago before uBPDw moved out post major event of physical abuse /dysregulation.

*So that is proof positive that "the kids know"... .the story I heard, two weeks ago now... .(confirmation), was that their father, my predecessor... .was finally driven quite mad, and feel into a deep depression, after he retired from the Army... .and he just gave up, right after the D (now 33) left for college, and the Son, (now 31), .left to live with his Dad who had moved out, after their mother moved in a BF, .this is a long story, but the point I want to make (concur with) is this, kids know... .and it's ok to want to stay for the sake of the kids, even of its "crazy town"... .as many have said, what would the children's lives be like of the Non left... .leaving the kids to face the pw/BPD's wrath... .I can only imagine... .and that was not acceptable in my own case, to me... .so I stayed... .and I broke that cycle, even though the marriage ended, and quite spectacularly... .my three kids were saved from a whole lot of "bad stuff" due to my continued presence in the marriage.

One thing I learnt, was that the abused grown person, will always gravitate back to the abusive foo, as that is "all they know"... .and then the kids may get damaged from further exposure to the dysfunctional foo (n-laws), or worse... that was NOT going to fly with me... .long story,

We all must make our own decisions... .but when I hear that "its better to leave, and the kids will be ok"... .sorry, I don't buy that... .nope.

Tough stuff... .

As far as iPhone videos... .I've done it too, and as well recorded... .and it pissed her off, when I played it back the next day (JADE) or two after the dust settled, and was ORDERED to delete it all... .and she has also text character killed me (assassinated me) on several occasions to her foo (via MASS TEXT)... .and each time, her own two children said, ."you need to stop it Mom, Red's a good man"... .whaaaat ?... .and yeah/

Which made her even more angry... .

I tell you, like the children, the foo knows... .and they either ignore it, as they too feel the foo shame of it all, .or they stay out of it... .like the saying "blood is thicker than water"... .also "the apple don't fall far from the tree"... .if it multi-generational, then its a foo family secret, and they DON'T want it getting out... .which is another ball of water moccasin's floating in the river in the dead of winter so "watch out"... .involving foo, is always a risk... .they will stand behind the pw/BPD in a heartbeat, and you the Non will be sliced and diced to keep that foo family secret a secret... . 

Red5

[defogging]

So many things to respond to here - not sure where to start!

The issue is that you didn't release the video after an event where she falsely accused you to your family.  You took it, telling her it was for her viewing only, and then immediately sent it to your family.  Also, if she accuses you of x, how does showing that she does y prove your point?

I also think you need to decide your long term goal with your family.  If you want a divorce, then I suppose it doesn't matter what you do.  If you plan to be in the relationship for years, then the goal should be taking steps to minimize drama in the relationship.

One final thought.  I think you are putting her in the driver's seat.  She does bad thing x, so you do bad thing y.  She isn't going to stop doing bad things because you started doing bad things.  The advantage that the non-BPD has over the BPD is we have the ability to control our actions much better than they.  If you get into a mud throwing contest, you are playing the game that BPD know very well.  As the old adage goes, "Don't argue with an idiot.  They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."  You can replace idiot with various other types of people too and the adage still works.

That's not an accurate assessment of what happened.  I took the video and told her it was for her to watch.  I debated for awhile about sending it to anyone, then thought "yeah, it's important that people see the reality of this situation".  I selected my sisters and no one else, because they're reasonable, it wasn't a public blast.  I'm very happy I sent it now.  If I hadn't sent it, the smear campaign would have happened and I probably never would have known about it.  This allowed my family to see the stark difference between things they're being told and what is really happening.

This isn't about retaliating or mud slinging, I don't plan to play a tit-for-tat game with her and threaten more videos.  As others have said, abuse thrives in the private setting and maybe uBPDw needs to be aware that I'm not afraid of taking it public.  I don't think it improves the situation at home, but evidence is evidence.

I just think there is a difference between telling people what's happening and sending them videos. I understand that you saw the video as the only way to bring objectivity into a he-said she-said situation. I can sympathise with that. But I think it has more downsides that upsides overall.

I've tried to tell people what's going on for 3 years... .this video incident is what made it obvious to my sister and now she realizes how convincing uBPDw can be.

I think videoing your wife is likely to be harmful to the relationship. I think it is likely to damage feelings of trust and safety and to cause an increase in toxic-shame generated behaviours.

I understand that it was not your intention to publicly shame her, but I think that is how she is likely to interpret it. And I don't think she's alone in that either. I think a lot of people would feel seriously violated by being videoed when distressed.

Not taking/sending the video in an effort to avoid increasing toxic-shame generated behavior sounds a lot like walking on eggshells to me.  Don't take action on anything due to fear of the reprisals.

Her behaviors have been escalating for awhile.  Since getting demoted at her job and starting to spend more money, I've been growing increasingly concerned about her having a total melt-down.  A big part of my strategy is building a case for myself because I see a divorce coming.  When/how no one knows, but this marriage isn't sustainable.  With her behavior now, I expect her to go fully nuclear during a divorce and I will need evidence on my side.

Why?

You're right in that "right, fair and partnership were lost long ago".  IN MY MARRIAGE, but not in the real world.  Would you sit idly by while someone destroys your character?

[Red5]

Not taking/sending the video in an effort to avoid increasing toxic-shame generated behavior sounds a lot like walking on eggshells to me.  Don't take action on anything due to fear of the reprisals.

Her behaviors have been escalating for awhile.  Since getting demoted at her job and starting to spend more money, I've been growing increasingly concerned about her having a total melt-down.  A big part of my strategy is building a case for myself because I see a divorce coming.  When/how no one knows, but this marriage isn't sustainable.  With her behavior now, I expect her to go fully nuclear during a divorce and I will need evidence on my side.

... ."trust your gut"

Red5

[Notwendy]

I agree with the others who said taking the video and showing it to others would not be conducive to repairing the marriage.

However, in anticipation of a divorce and the possibility of a smear campaign, child custody arrangements, and the potential for the wife making serious allegations of untrue abuse or DV, I would want evidence for self defense.

I think the distinction is the motivation. Is the reason for the video self preservation and safety of the kids in the case of a custody battle, or done as an angry reaction to the spouse's behavior.

The first one is done with purposeful thinking, the second one, emotional reaction- which usually fuels the drama. Even if you have the video, I would be careful about who sees it. I assume you are doing that.

[Enabler]

Hey defogging,

The answer is, no I didn’t stand idolly by and watch my wife oublically smear me, I ran around telling whoever would listen my truth... .however, that was tantamount to shooting myself in the groin. Why? Because I looked as disordered as she did, but she is CONSIDERABLY better at acting and painted a considerably more believable picture than me... .and here’s the thing, I often talk about getting people to believe in unicorns, well what you are explaining to people is like getting people to believe in unicorns... .eg what’s more believable if you’re the run of the mill Joe (and forget that people have known you for 20+yrs, that counts for nothing)

- hey, my husband has been taking videos of me when I’m stressed getting the kids ready in the morning. Those kids are such hard work and they never do what I ask them to do... .and there he is videoing me getting cross for the first time in ages, instead of helping me out. He’s a typical guy, never does anything and just picks at me all the time. He seems to think I have a PD but actually I reckon he is NPD. I do worry about the stress he’s under, I think he’s depressed... .

Or

- I think my wife might have a personality disorder. She incredibly good at acting so you likely wouldn’t have seen any evidence whatsoever of these behaviours as she’s normally so together, friendly and personable. I know she’d bend over backwards for you, seems super kind and really sensitive but when the door closes she turns into a horrible person. Look, I took a video of her losing it with the kids in the morning whilst I stood there and did nothing to help. She’s really stressed and shouting... .just like houses up and down the land... .

So... .I DONT WANT YOU TO MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE AS ME BECAUSE IT DOESNT WORK OUT VERY WELL.

Yesterday, I spoke loudly so that my kids could hear me (in separate rooms on the same floor) “have you had lunch yet?”, I hear my wife who’s on the phone to her sister on the top floor say to her sister “I better go as Enabler is getting angry that I haven’t fed the kids lunch”... .I had a huge JADE. Why? Because she was discrediting me to her sister. I said “why did you say I was angry, I wasn’t angry at all?” To which says “yes you were I could sense it in the tone of your voice!”, to which I responded “or is it just that you want SIL to think that I’m permanently angry and that you’re the victim”... .I regretted it as soon as I said it and I paid for it all afternoon. My regret was that I participated in her drama and I REACTED rather than responded, I should have taken time out, reassessed my emotions which were triggered and left her with what guilt she might have had, maybe saying “oh wow,”. No good came of my reaction.

The smear campaign was maybe a result of her believing what you might do with the video, you might shatter one of her manly masks... .you know, the family one or the church one or the social one. People might be able to see her for who she is (or at least the person she knows deep down she is). As Fian wrote, I think you need to consider longer term objectives when considering whether or not a response (and that includes recording and/or forwarding videos) is in your long term objectives interest. I can totally understand why you did it, I certainly would not have told my wife though. I takes a long time but to an extent allow your consistency and your behaviour do the talking... .people will see it eventually.

Red makes some great points re FOO. I also tried that one, that also backfired SPECTACULARLY. The FOOs typical response to
Threat is to band round to protect the common equilibrium. It’s their collective foundation as a group of dysfunctional individuals. Families will regularly deny that an alcoholic parent has a problem, they will even more regularly deny that a parent has an emotional problem... .not least because it’s their normal. They may openly discuss ‘it’ as a problem but defend it like hell to an outsider.

Abuse does thrive in the shadows and shining a light on it is one way to ‘make people see’, however, in my experience people often don’t see what’s right in front of them so be very carefully ‘showing’ people what seems like no-brained ‘evidence’. I am glad that you won a victory recruiting your sister... .incidentally, you are triangulating you sister, however, she can do little more than confirm you are a victim.

Enabler

[Cat Familiar]

Well, I'm of the mind that defogging did something very necessary for his own well being. It's not like he was flagrantly showing this video to anyone and everyone; he shared it with trusted family members.

Having grown up with a BPD mom, I know how it feels to be the target of a smear campaign and get the label of "identified patient." In fact, everyone, all my childhood friends, thought my mom was so absolutely wonderful, it made me doubt myself, thinking that there must be something wrong with me.

It's hard to stand up to these reputational attacks even as an adult. I experienced that in my first marriage. My sociopathic BPD husband could be so charming and I was the shy one, so it was easy for him to convince people that there was something wrong with me as a defense should his own behavior behind closed doors become public.

Truth is truth and it's not like defogging is selectively editing the video to show her in a worse light. Having support is something that most of us here struggle with. If we had the support we needed from friends and family, it would be less likely that we would feel the need to post on an anonymous forum.

[Notwendy]

I can concur with enabler on that. I don't have an interest in exposing my mother, but did intervene when I felt her issues were impacting my father's health care. I did not expose her to family and friends, but did to her medical team- which keeps confidentiality. However, they did discuss their concerns with my father, who then told my mother who then did her own smear campaign against me.

It was damaging. She called up several people to tell them I was severely mentally disturbed. Many people in her FOO stopped speaking to me. She also called up my husband and my in laws, who knew better- they were on to her and then told me what she told them.

I was embarrassed to be around her family- knowing this is what she told them and that they were thinking this. Like enabler said -if I were to tell the truth, then they would be in the position of deciding which one of us was a liar. There was no way to believe us both and I would look bad for trying. I let it go, but lost these relationships.

I decided to let my own integrity be the evidence. Being smeared hurts the ego, but if people are going to believe this about me without evidence, I'm not sure I can trust them. People would judge me by my behavior in the long run. Over time, there has been some cracks in her veneer- I think her FOO has seen it, but our relationship is probably beyond repair.

There is a cost to doing this but sometimes we opt for doing it anyway. I was quite prepared to intervene for the sake of my father's medical care. I also did on behalf of my kids. If the relationship is beyond repair and at the point of divorce, then I think it is important to establish the truth for the courts. Perhaps there is more advice about this on the legal board.

[Bnonymous]

I wrote a longer post, but it isn't here. I don't know whether I clicked the wrong button or whether it's been removed for some reason. But the substance of what I wanted to say has been captured succinctly by notwendy here:

I decided to let my own integrity be the evidence. Being smeared hurts the ego, but if people are going to believe this about me without evidence, I'm not sure I can trust them. People would judge me by my behavior in the long run.

Exactly. Don't get into triangulation. Your behaviour can speak for itself and people can base their opinions of you on what they themselves have observed of you over time.

Taking a video as evidence for a custody case is one thing, but, when it comes to personal relationships (such as with your sisters), do you really need to prove anything? I would want people to trust me, and, if they couldn't trust me, I wouldn't jump through hoops to prove my trustworthiness - this would make me feel worse in the long run.

[Cat Familiar]

Taking a video as evidence for a custody case is one thing, but, when it comes to personal relationships (such as with your sisters), do you really need to prove anything? I would want people to trust me, and, if they couldn't trust me, I wouldn't jump through hoops to prove my trustworthiness - this would make me feel worse in the long run.

One of his sisters is a physician, with an understanding of mental illness. I can imagine that defogging might have sent the video as a sort of "what do you see in this and how can we make this a less toxic situation for the children?"


When you live with a pwBPD and have been targeted in a campaign to undermine your own sense of reality, it's helpful to have the perspective of a trusted outside source. Rather than triangulating, this could be seen an attempt to get support from family members. He's very concerned with how his wife's behavior is impacting the children.

[Enabler]

Cat... .now that is a highly valid, considered and excellent response to her behaviour. Sharing evidence with his trusted considered knowledgable sister who is experienced in mental health is seeking professional advice which is NOT karpman behaviour.

Validation is important to everyone. When your sanity is threatened validation is as important to you as it is to your wife. Atestation of our own sanity is something in a normal environment we should be able to do instinctively... .but in environments involving someone with such a twisted sense of up and down we all need someone, especially an unbiased  professional to say “you’re okay buddy”. Even therapists visit therapists. Your sister doesn’t fit the bill of unbiased although I guess I find my siblings the least forgiving and most critical of all my peers, so maybe she is.

On another twist to my typical flip-flopping. I believe it is important to post evidence with someome, on the off chance that something happens to you,, or the evidence is lost. I have no issues collecting evidence, especially evidence that protects your sanity... .just don’t try and weaponise it else you run the risk of hurting yourself with it more.

[Bnonymous]

I take your point, CatFamiliar. The situation is certainly nuanced.

One other thing I wanted to say earlier picks up on this comment:

Not taking/sending the video in an effort to avoid increasing toxic-shame generated behavior sounds a lot like walking on eggshells to me.  Don't take action on anything due to fear of the reprisals.

This is not my understanding of "don't walk on eggshells". My understanding of the phrase is that we shouldn't feel that we can't live our own lives, express our own opinions, or feel our own feelings just because of how our pwBPD might respond to that. To me, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't consider how our behaviour towards them may be interpreted and received by them. I think that, in all relationships, whether BPD is involved or not, we very much do need to consider our partner's feelings about how we behave towards them - showing sensitivity and consideration towards our partners and respecting their privacy (without having to keep quiet about abuse) is a very different thing to walking on eggshells.

[defogging]

This is interesting to me that the bpdfamily community seems to be split pretty evenly on this.

I'll add a little more detail but I'm not going to spend all day defending my actions.  I know my situation and my reasons for sharing it, I'm okay with some people not understanding that.

I had been thinking for awhile about gathering some audio/video evidence as things seem to be escalating.  I've been worried about her making some crazy claim against me (call the cops about DV, abuse on the kids, or her blowing through all our savings, etc) that would force me to initiate a divorce.  The morning I took the video it was "spur of the moment", and I didn't have any grand plan for what I was going to do with the video.  After they left I thought about it for an hour or so, then decided to share it with my sisters.

When I sent it to my sisters it wasn't an attempt to triangulate or have them believe me, because they already do.  It was more like "I know you understand what's happening over here and I've told you about our difficulties, I just thought I'd share an example of what our typical morning looks like so you can see it for yourself".  I felt that without seeing an example of uBPDw's behavior no one was really grasping how ugly things are.  By their reaction they didn't grasp it, they were shocked and saddened about our situation.

Yes, my sister is a physician and understands mental illness much better than a layperson.  She also has a close friend whose spouse is a diagnosed BPD.  She gets it, and understood the behavior in the video and smear campaign right away.  The first phone call in the smear campaign was to her husband, he partially believed uBPDw until my sister set him straight about how uBPDw's claims don't match up to what they know about me and what was displayed in the video.  

I never expected uBPDw to go on a full blown smear campaign, but it's really making people see things for what they are.  uBPDw doesn't know I sent the video to anyone, and my sisters haven't told her they've seen it.  uBPDw doesn't mention the video when she rants to them, just makes claims about me and is soliciting them to "help" me with all my problems.  uBPDw continues to make claims that are contradicted in the video and my sisters have picked up on all of it.

The fallout from it has solidified the support I get from my family, which is highly beneficial to me in the long run. 

Cat... .now that is a highly valid, considered and excellent response to her behaviour. Sharing evidence with his trusted considered knowledgable sister who is experienced in mental health is seeking professional advice which is NOT karpman behaviour.

Validation is important to everyone. When your sanity is threatened validation is as important to you as it is to your wife. Atestation of our own sanity is something in a normal environment we should be able to do instinctively... .but in environments involving someone with such a twisted sense of up and down we all need someone, especially an unbiased  professional to say “you’re okay buddy”. Even therapists visit therapists. Your sister doesn’t fit the bill of unbiased although I guess I find my siblings the least forgiving and most critical of all my peers, so maybe she is.

On another twist to my typical flip-flopping. I believe it is important to post evidence with someome, on the off chance that something happens to you,, or the evidence is lost. I have no issues collecting evidence, especially evidence that protects your sanity... .just don’t try and weaponise it else you run the risk of hurting yourself with it more.

Enabler makes a couple points here that I agree with, and fit my situation. 

I would have to say I partly shared that video with them for validation.  It felt great to hear their response and know once and for all that I'm not the crazy one in my house.  I'm not planning to weaponize this tactic, that would be stooping to her level which was never my intent.  I agree my sister is not unbiased - however, both of my sisters will call me on my b.s. if they need to.  We've had several conversations over the weekend and they've quizzed me on some things to test uBPDw's claims, and have let me know some things they see from her perspective that I may not see.  Like you said, siblings can be your harshest critics which is okay by me.

I decided to let my own integrity be the evidence. Being smeared hurts the ego, but if people are going to believe this about me without evidence, I'm not sure I can trust them. People would judge me by my behavior in the long run.

I agree with this, and have chosen to take the high road for three years.  The trouble is the claims they make are very believable so I don't think this works.  Take Enabler's example of yelling at the kids for lunch, of course it's believable that his wife says he's raging when we know he's not.  Impossible to defend by future actions, we all have to shout to our kids in the house at times just to get them to hear us.

In my situation uBPDw claims I'm an alcoholic, it's an easy target with no real defense unless I never have a drink again.  (which I'm not gonna do because that allows her to control my behavior)  I like beer and have a few on the weekends, and people see me drink beer at family events (when others are drinking too).  I'm not an alcoholic and can easily control it.  I can have one or none if I choose to, and have done that plenty of times.  People don't see the majority of evenings when I don't drink anything and get up the next day at 5 a.m. to go running.  But the claim is made because that shred of doubt can be planted.  Back to siblings being harsh critics - I got grilled by one of my sisters about this, I told her the truth and she was comfortable with my answers.