Appeasement is not a sustainable strategy

[Cat Familiar]

From Wikipedia: "Appeasement in an international context is a diplomatic policy of making political or material concessions to an aggressive power in order to avoid conflict."

So many of us have attempted to use appeasement to avoid conflict with our BPD loved ones. Perhaps it has worked a time or two and prevented a full-blown dysregulation. As is human nature, often we will try a previously successful strategy again and again, even when overwhelming evidence has shown that it has a slim chance of success.  (Intermittent Reinforcement) It might be helpful to understand the beginnings of our use of appeasement as a strategy and why it seldom works.

For some of us, who had a BPD parent, we might have learned to appease at an early age. I learned to be quiet, suppress my wants and needs, and to make myself scarce when my mother was angry. Though I attempted to do things that I thought were "helpful" and "nice" to please her, those acts were seldom appreciated even when she wasn't upset. I remember her calling me "weak," probably because I chose not to engage in conflict with her.

As an adult, I've become a BPD magnet; I married two BPD husbands and have had a few friends who seemingly have characteristics of it. A pattern I've observed is that pwBPD seem to create conflict, perhaps in order to discharge uncomfortable internal feelings and they seem to want to draw their loved ones into their discord.

I tend to be "conflict avoidant" so I've tolerated a fair amount of conflict without participating, which often has led to them increasing the "volume" so that I would be drawn into their chaos. I'm learning that it is a fine balance to be able to ignore small slights, yet there's a point where their behavior becomes so egregious that it must be confronted.

I believe that placating and appeasing behaviors were what my mother called "weak" and I've noticed that other pwBPD will push and push until they run into a strong boundary. This is the quandary for those of us in relationship with a pwBPD. Where do we draw the line and how do we assert our autonomy?

Having been pushed too far in previous relationships with pwBPD, I now am much more rigid in what I will and will not tolerate.

In granting concessions to Germany in 1938, Neville Chamberlain confidently announced that he had secured "peace for our time". That didn't work out too well.

[Ozzie101]

Very insightful, Cat Familiar. I like your connecting that to history (my degree is in history and I'm a history nerd). I hadn't thought of it that way, but I see the connection.

Appeasement doesn't work long-term. It can stop conflict now, but the problem remains and will only get bigger and bigger.

I've been very guilty of appeasement with my uBPDh but lately, I've been changing my way of thinking. I'm tired of putting my own wants and needs last, agonizing over every decision so that I make the right one (meaning, the one that won't set him off). It's not sustainable. Something will have to give.

Instead, I plan to stand my ground and make the decisions I think are best and right -- not just the ones he would approve of. I plan to be kind about it, of course, but I'm finding new strength in therapy and in support from my family.

My H also accuses me of being weak, of having no guts, all because I won't blow up at people the way he thinks I should. I, too, am conflict avoidant. I don't like arguments or fights. Instead, I choose to handle potential conflict through calm, rational discussion and compromise. He thinks it's better to cuss, yell and cut people off. The fact that I won't means that I'm a loser who won't stand up for him or for myself. I know he's wrong. I've refused to handle things the way he wants, which frustrates him. But I'm not going to become like him.

[SweetCharlotte]

Great insights, both of you. We can extend the historical allusion to our present time: appeasement of Putin/Russia is not going to achieve "Peace in our time." It will create a bloodier explosion down the line. A certain western politician is worse than Chamberlain, since he is actually in cahoots with the threat to freedom, equality, and security of today.

I have been guilty of over-appeasement too. Then I reach my limit, and start acting out myself rather than rationally approaching the boundary that has been crossed and enacting whatever consequence should have been applied.

With my uBPDh the issue has been cutting me off whenever he feels a threat to his ego. The provocations have been slighter and slighter as I have grown more careful about tiptoeing through his minefield. Finally he cut me off twice within three weeks—this is on a long-distance commuter marriage, so when he ghosts me the effect is complete. Phone, apps, social media, shared subscriptions—all contact ceases. I'm not sure what consequence I can enact other than not take him back so quickly as before. I have tried to exact a promise from him never to do it again, but he justifies himself and hangs up on me. The impasse continues.

I think that Ozzie's solution holds some hope in her situation, because she and her H live together. It's easier for a long-distance H to simply cut you off until he feels like coming back as though nothing happened.

Like you, CatFam, I had a uBPD mom. She died of self-destructive causes when she was roughly my age (late fifties).

[SweetCharlotte]

My H also accuses me of being weak, of having no guts, all because I won't blow up at people the way he thinks I should. I, too, am conflict avoidant. I don't like arguments or fights. Instead, I choose to handle potential conflict through calm, rational discussion and compromise. He thinks it's better to cuss, yell and cut people off. The fact that I won't means that I'm a loser who won't stand up for him or for myself. I know he's wrong. I've refused to handle things the way he wants, which frustrates him. But I'm not going to become like him.

My uBPDh has this issue with how I handle my D15. He thinks I should be more stern and impose more consequences on her. She is pretty well-behaved, but can be sullen and sassy towards grownups. This bothers him much more than it does me. He accuses me of aiding and abetting her by not enforcing discipline. We married when she was already 6, and I was never a disciplinarian with her. So of course she resents him and his pressuring me. He has cut me off several times on account of this.

[Notwendy]

I agree with these ideas. Appeasement may bring temporary peace but it reinforces the bad behavior and sets up expectations that will lead to resentment of  the one who appeases.

My H's family members are either bully's or passive aggressive to get their way. I think he sees giving in as "weakness" and he has sometimes dug his heels in at a request from me just to show who's tough. It's like biggest bully ( or best manipulator) wins in his FOO.I'm uncomfortable with that.

In my FOO, the main rule was to appease my BPD mother. I didn't know any other way to avoid conflict and conflict was frightening to me. It took a lot of work to stop being a people pleaser and learn to assert myself. Neither of us came in to the marriage with effective skills to work out conflict. Bullying helps get your own way but it doesn't lead to a good relationship. All I knew to do was to appease but that didn't work either.

Ideally, I prefer peaceful negotiation, if possible

[Red5]

I was reading the other day about how “Non’s“ are most times conflict avoidant, as Cat writes... .the three “N’s”... .
*nice
*naive
*non-confrontational

... .so we got a target on us?

Ah’ history... .sometimes I felt like my boundaries were like the Maginot Line, built by the French prior to WWII to deter invasion by the “Huns”; ie’ the Germans... .

Still conducting tactics used in the First World War, didn’t learn anything... .

Instead of attacking directly, the Germans invaded through the Low Countries, bypassing the Line to the north.

As in my boundary(‘s) was totally ineffective?

Red5

[Yellowpearl]

The question for me has been when to enforce a strong boundary and the timing of it all. I've noticed when you enforce on during a heavy push/pull or during acting out behaviors, the pwBPD feels "wronged" and the behavior only escalates. My thoughts about this are to just wait for a calm moment or some form of consistency and then stand your ground. Basically waiting until they are back to baseline and not dysregulated. But it's difficult in cases where dysregulation is occurring every other week or constantly, in that case i'm not so sure the timing of standing ground.

[Cat Familiar]

The question for me has been when to enforce a strong boundary and the timing of it all. I've noticed when you enforce on during a heavy push/pull or during acting out behaviors, the pwBPD feels "wronged" and the behavior only escalates.

I'm wondering if you're thinking of boundaries as something that needs cooperation from your pwBPD?

My thoughts about this are to just wait for a calm moment or some form of consistency and then stand your ground.

If boundaries are there to protect you, why would you wait? If you're not consistent, then you're giving intermittent reinforcement. For example: I'll listen to you yell at me when you're really upset. But I won't listen if you yell at me when you're just having a bad day. Instead of: I deserve to be spoken to in a respectful manner. If I hear yelling, I will leave the room.

Basically waiting until they are back to baseline and not dysregulated. But it's difficult in cases where dysregulation is occurring every other week or constantly, in that case i'm not so sure the timing of standing ground.

If you wait until they're not dysregulated to protect yourself, with some people, you might be waiting a long time. And what does that communicate to them if you allow them more latitude when they're upset?

[Notwendy]

*nice
*naive
*non-confrontational

... .so we got a target on us?


In a sense, yes.  I have read about how we tend to attract and are attracted to people who "match" our own dysfunction in a sense ( the patterns we engage in). I have also read that if we leave a dysfunctional relationship without doing some work on our own issues in the relationship- we risk recreating a similar dysfunctional pattern with someone else.

The only way to get approval from my FOO from both my parents growing up was to appease my BPD mother. It was my normal. I think those traits were attractive to people seeking someone with them.

[Bnonymous]

The question for me has been when to enforce a strong boundary and the timing of it all. I've noticed when you enforce on during a heavy push/pull or during acting out behaviors, the pwBPD feels "wronged" and the behavior only escalates. My thoughts about this are to just wait for a calm moment or some form of consistency and then stand your ground. Basically waiting until they are back to baseline and not dysregulated. But it's difficult in cases where dysregulation is occurring every other week or constantly, in that case i'm not so sure the timing of standing ground.

I think Cat Familiar makes some good points in response to that quote.

From what I have seen on these boards, a lot of (perhaps most) members get confused about the difference between having a boundary and talking to their pwBPD about boundaries. These really are very different things.

Think of a boundary as being a bit like a wall around a medieval town. The best time to work on designing extensions to the wall is when you're not under attack. BUT the time you need a wall is when someone tries to walk past it, and the way they know there's a real wall there (and not just the illusion of a wall) is when their attempts to walk through it meet resistance.

Imagine, for instance, if your boundary is "I will not be yelled at". If you wanted to discuss with your pwBPD how you feel when you're yelled at and how it's necessary to protect yourself from being yelled at, then I agree that the best time to do that is when things are calm and they are not dysregulated. But that isn't having a boundary; that's just having a conversation about boundaries and self-protection and feelings around certain behaviours.

The actual boundary itself is your commitment to yourself that you will not be yelled at and your willingness to remove yourself from a situation where it happens. The actual boundary doesn't have much to do with your pwBPD at all. The idea is to have a wall that cannot be walked through, not just to say to someone "don't walk past this point". We're not really committed to (for instance) not being yelled at if we are willing to rely exclusively on people respecting it when we tell them that we don't want them to yell at us. Rather, we have to actively protect ourselves from being yelled at by refusing to be in a situation where it's happening.

We can certainly try, as a first port of call, to ask the other person not to do it. But, if they continue to do it, we then have to be willing to respect that commitment we made to ourselves ("I will not be yelled at") and take action to protect ourselves, e.g. by leaving the room.

The way we teach people that we have a boundary is that they can't cross it.

For example, the strongest boundary I have is that I will not be pressured into cancelling plans with my daughter except for in a genuine (and not contrived) emergency situation. I have never talked to my pwBPD about this. I have never said anything like "It is a boundary for me that I won't be pressured into cancelling plans with my daughter" or "Don't pressure me to cancel plans with my daughter" - I just haven't ever cancelled plans with my daughter, no matter what he's said or done to try and get me to do that; I never have done it. I know that's a boundary by the fact it cannot be crossed.

In contrast, I have often asked my pwBPD not to shout at me. But I don't leave the room or hang up the phone when it happens. So that isn't a boundary - it's merely a preference or an expectation. I know that isn't a boundary for me by the fact that it is often crossed. If it were a boundary then it couldn't be crossed.

Does that make any sense?

[Ozzie101]

*nice
*naive
*non-confrontational

... .so we got a target on us?


In a sense, yes.  I have read about how we tend to attract and are attracted to people who "match" our own dysfunction in a sense ( the patterns we engage in). I have also read that if we leave a dysfunctional relationship without doing some work on our own issues in the relationship- we risk recreating a similar dysfunctional pattern with someone else.

The BPD specialist therapist I met with a couple of weeks ago said something similar. She said I seem like a very calm, rational, even-keeled person and that people like that are often very attractive to pwBPD. They're so mercurial they find the stability comforting. But, at the same time, they find the calm, less-emotional attitude frustrating because it doesn't reflect what they're feeling in a dysregulation and that very calmness can set them off even more.

That's a good clarification, Bnonymous. Like most here, I struggle with boundaries. I've never had a conversation with H about them, but I've been framing some in my mind. I will not trash my family or anyone else. I will not treat people the way he expects me to. Etc. I haven't talked to him about them, but I've stood my ground and refused to follow along.

[Skip]

Let's challenge two concepts here.

1.)

"I'm a BPD magnet" Isn't this is like saying I'm a chocolate cake or Jack Daniels magnet. Didn't we pick and stay in our relationship and engage in the day-to-day drama for extended periods of time? For some of the posters here, we are talking about more than a decade. For some others we are talking about multiple BPD partners in our past. We had choices. We still have choices. We need to own the relationship we are in. The first step to making anything better is to understand what we are dealing with.

2.)

Boundaries: "I will not be yelled at" - said as I leave the room (and return later). I'm not sure I would see this in the same wheelhouse as "values/boundaries". This, in and of itself, is a counter punch in fight. If someone gets too close to your face and is screaming, you can punch them or push them away or run out the door. We don't need a new concept like "values/boundaries" for this - we already know this - it's instinctual - fight or flight. If we had the value of "healthy resolution of relationship conflict", and we were in touch with it, we would have 'telegraphed" it early in the relationship, modeled it when we were unhappy (walked the talk), and addressed it the first (or second, or third) time any serious violation of the boundary surfaced in the relationship. Values/boundaries are a lifestyle, not a counter reaction. It's success lies in the upstream actions, not the downstream reactions. Can we establish new values in a relationship? Yes. It's not easy, though. It takes commitment: a conscious effort, constructive communication, consist actions, and practical patience as we evolve/grow into it a new lifestyle within a relationship that has operated without this value.

[Bnonymous]

I disagree, Skip.

I think you are describing commitment to a lifestyle that reflects our values. And, while I think that's hugely important, I think it's a separate concept to boundaries (though there can be some degree of overlap in practice).

I see boundaries as being the fences that surround our psychic space. They are the things that allow us to know we have choices in what we will and won't accept in our lives and differentiate between Self and Other. I think that willingness to remove ourselves from a situation where something is happening that we are not willing to accept is the absolute hallmark of what a boundary looks like.

(More here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61684.msg13019315#msg13019315 )

[Red5]

Skip makes some great points, as usual, .but I can see where I was, and also was reciprocally attracted to, a pw/BPD (npd?), and likewise.

My issues to deal with... .in hindsight, I now recognize this ?

I'm a three "N" person.

... .this video pretty much sums up my experience with "boundaries".

I can certainly concur with what the character "Odd Ball" is relating  

Red5

[Ozzie101]

1.)

"I'm a BPD magnet" Isn't this is like saying I'm a chocolate cake or Jack Daniels magnet. Didn't we pick and stay in our relationship and engage in the day-to-day drama for extended periods of time? For some of the posters here, we are talking about more than a decade. For some others we are talking about multiple BPD partners in our past. We had choices. We still have choices. We need to own the relationship we are in. The first step to making anything better is to understand what we are dealing with.

We shouldn't look at ourselves as helpless victims. But I think recognizing and understanding the traits in us that drew us to BPD partners (or drew them to us) is important in taking the steps we need to improve our lives. We played a part in our story. We made decisions. It's important to take responsibility for that, but to also look for what may have led us to make those choices in the first place.

In my case, I am a calm, even-keeled person. That was attractive to H. It's also a source of annoyance for him. He's actually said (not in an accusatory way, more like he was thinking out loud and trying to figure things out) that maybe my being so calm and unemotional may be part of why he's so depressed.

I'm a fixer. I'm nice. I'm non-confrontational. But I'm seeing now that there are times when, yes, confrontation is necessary and that it's up to me to set and assert my own boundaries and uphold my values. I can't twist them and bend over backwards to suit him anymore. That's doing both of us an injustice.

[Cat Familiar]

From what I have seen on these boards, a lot of (perhaps most) members get confused about the difference between having a boundary and talking to their pwBPD about boundaries. These really are very different things.

Think of a boundary as being a bit like a wall around a medieval town. The best time to work on designing extensions to the wall is when you're not under attack. BUT the time you need a wall is when someone tries to walk past it, and the way they know there's a real wall there (and not just the illusion of a wall) is when their attempts to walk through it meet resistance.

Bnonymous makes an excellent point here about the distinction between having a boundary and talking about one's boundary. My boundaries are for me, and explaining them to others can lead to JADEing.

If I hear my husband start to raise his voice, I will leave the room, telling him that I need to attend to another matter and that I will return in 15 minutes (long enough for his emotional state to return to baseline). Therefore yelling is not an issue.

Let's challenge two concepts here.

1.)

"I'm a BPD magnet" Isn't this is like saying I'm a chocolate cake or Jack Daniels magnet. Didn't we pick and stay in our relationship and engage in the day-to-day drama for extended periods of time? For some of the posters here, we are talking about more than a decade. For some others we are talking about multiple BPD partners in our past. We had choices. We still have choices. We need to own the relationship we are in. The first step to making anything better is to understand what we are dealing with.

I call myself a BPD magnet in a humorous self-deprecating way, sort of like a Homer Simpson facepalm, "DOH!" Growing up with a BPD mom, these behaviors seem almost familial and I have compassion for pwBPD and cut them more slack sometimes than perhaps I should. That said, I did choose to leave my first husband, who was BPD on steroids and I recently ended a friendship with someone whose chaos was filtering into my life.

[Cat Familiar]

I was reading the other day about how “Non’s“ are most times conflict avoidant, as Cat writes ... .the three “N’s” ... .
*nice
*naive
*non-confrontational

... .so we got a target on us?

  I remember in 6th grade someone taped a note to my back "Kick Me". It didn't take long to figure that one out!  

I'm still nice, no longer quite so naive, but I can be a bit confrontational--and I enjoy it!  

The BPD specialist therapist I met with a couple of weeks ago said something similar. She said I seem like a very calm, rational, even-keeled person and that people like that are often very attractive to pwBPD. They're so mercurial they find the stability comforting. But, at the same time, they find the calm, less-emotional attitude frustrating because it doesn't reflect what they're feeling in a dysregulation and that very calmness can set them off even more.

Yes, I've been called "RobotWoman" for being so calm and rational. Now, instead of being insulted, I agree. It's my Superpower.

[defogging]

If I hear my husband start to raise his voice, I will leave the room, telling him that I need to attend to another matter and that I will return in 15 minutes (long enough for his emotional state to return to baseline). Therefore yelling is not an issue.

Food for thought:  Is making an excuse to leave the room, without acknowledging the issue, just being conflict-avoidant?

I think this is where boundaries are so confusing.  Us non's have a tendency to avoid conflict when it arises, then come back to the relationship and pretend everything is "just fine".  I think this behavior perpetuates our unhealthy way of dealing with things.

Of course it wouldn't be healthy to stay in the room and engage with a disordered person either.

Just throwing my thoughts out there, I don't know the answer.

[Skip]

The term "boundaries" is a poorly defined and overused term - there are many many "definitions". Years ago we worked with our clinical consultants to define the term for use on this site, rather than have 10 conflicting definitions always in play.  We did that here:
https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

In this process, we focused on the mismatch of values. This is most often what lies deep and at the root of relationship failure. While communication tools (such as we teach here) can greatly help in making the day to day issues in a relationship more palatable, ultimately, if the values are in conflict and remain in conflict, the relationship will fail (either end or be in prolonged conflict).

Value alignment is really important. Many values in a relationship are cooperative or negotiated values (interdependent) - this is important part of making a relationship work. This falls apart when all the values are negotiable. We all should have our own independent values - the few and deep values that define us.

When we deep dive into member relationship problems, many members realize that they they don't have a clear understanding of their own values... .in many cases, they also do the very type of things (maybe different, but similar) in the relationship that upset them when their partner does it. For example, raging is not constructive, but then silent treatment is equally so.

In this context, not knowing our values and being able to define them (explain the boundaries of what is and is not part of that value) ultimately hurts us and is on us.

Can this be rehabilitated? Yes. It takes thoughtfulness on our part - some personal inventory. And it takes commitment, self reform, constructive communication, consistency, and practical patience. Part of that commitment is the understanding that if we can't ultimately align values with our partner, we don't really have a relationship.

A lot of what is be talked about in this thread is how to put out a fire - the real meaningful work is in fire prevention. And its important value/boundary to have for ourselves that when things actually devolve to putting out a fire, we don't do more damage in the process of putting the fire out - like the over zealous firemen that throw all the furniture out the windows.

[Ozzie101]

Part of that commitment is the understanding that if we can't ultimately align values with our partner, we don't really have a relationship.

This is what I'm struggling with now, regarding my family. H doesn't really value family. He is not close to his own adopted family and is in the process of building a relationship with his biological family. It's been mostly positive but has still been stressful. Family is and always has been very important to me. I know my family members aren't perfect, but they're good people and I enjoy their company. They make mistakes sometimes (don't we all) but they mean well.

With my family, however, there's no leeway. He interprets everything they do or don't do as an intentional, personal slight against him or his son (my stepson). My parents turn down a dinner invitation because they have a previous commitment? They hate H. They care about my sisters more than me. We're the black sheep. They don't care about us at all. I can understand how and why he is hurt sometimes, but I also believe he's making faulty judgments, which is painful when it's people I love.

He believes that if someone doesn't live up to your standards, you cut them off. You cuss them out. You make sure they suffer the way you did. I cannot live that way.

We seem to be at an impasse on this and the more I think about it, the more I suspect that my family, my refusal to treat them the way he thinks I should (cuss them out for what he interprets as an insult, stop talking to them for a year), will be our undoing. He's said his first wife's "always taking her family's side" was what destroyed his first marriage. Early in our relationship, I believed what he said about her, that she was too attached to them and that they were unreasonable, snobby and demanding. But I'm starting to think that they've been unfairly maligned.

Anyway, I'm not sure if or how that can be repaired or aligned.

[Bnonymous]

I agree with the substance of what you're saying here, Skip, but I can't agree on the semantics.

I think "mismatch of values" and "boundaries" are different subjects entirely. And I can't see it as helpful to conflate the two.

Couples can have perfectly aligned values and yet one or both of them have extremely weak boundaries (in fact, in enmeshed relationships, this is often the case). Similarly, couples can have deep conflicts of values and yet both have strong boundaries.

I understand what you're saying, Skip, and I agree with it completely in every way except as a definition of "boundaries". Will bow out of debating it though, as I get what you're saying about how you worked to establish a working definition to go forward with, so I appreciate that extended debate about it would only be a backwards step. I respect the board's definition, but it's not one I myself can work with. I, too, spent a lot of time working through this conceptually, in my personal life, in my studies, and in my writing, and debating it would feel like a backwards step for me too (to some extent). I think it's an "agree to disagree" thing.

[Cat Familiar]

Food for thought:  Is making an excuse to leave the room, without acknowledging the issue, just being conflict-avoidant?

I think this is where boundaries are so confusing.  Us non's have a tendency to avoid conflict when it arises, then come back to the relationship and pretend everything is "just fine".  I think this behavior perpetuates our unhealthy way of dealing with things.

Of course it wouldn't be healthy to stay in the room and engage with a disordered person either.

I've discovered over time with my husband, who is BPD-lite, that it is worse than useless to try and discuss anything with him when his limbic system is in overdrive. So I give him a "time out" by creating a "necessary" task that I must attend to. Then when he has returned to a calm state, usually in about 15 minutes, I will return and judging by his current response, maybe I will initiate a conversation or maybe I won't.

He's an extremely intelligent guy, but once his anger infuses the amygdala, he becomes irrational and there is no point in trying to have a logical conversation--his intellect becomes useless and it's all emotional for him.

Sometimes it's unnecessary for me to even try and make the point I was hoping to share, because once he's calmed down, he will figure it out for himself and it is even insulting if I try and tell him--that's the NPD part of Cluster B that rears its head when he's ashamed that he's lost control of his emotions.

If I stay centered and calm and loving and supportive (when he's managing to be at least civil), then in the following days it's very likely that he will be contrite, apologetic, and tell me how much he loves me. (The painting white phase--which I now appreciate, but take with a grain of salt.  )

[Skip]

If I hear my husband start to raise his voice, I will leave the room, telling him that I need to attend to another matter and that I will return in 15 minutes (long enough for his emotional state to return to baseline). Therefore yelling is not an issue.

Food for thought:  Is making an excuse to leave the room, without acknowledging the issue, just being conflict-avoidant? ... //... Of course it wouldn't be healthy to stay in the room and engage with a disordered person either.

We're talking most in terms of putting out the fire here... .let's shift this to be more about prevention. And let's say the value is loving and constructive conflict resolution.

1. It time of calm and happiness, it is important to discuss this value, ask what we could do better, talk about what everyone could do better - agree on some constructive rules (boundary) - like if one of us is reacting strongly and the other is flooded by the reaction, lets take a loving/tactful retreat with the promise to come back to the topic and discuss it together and open-mindedly when everyone is calm. This is a most constructive thing we can do.

The value is: loving and constructive conflict resolution
The boundary is: its OK to get upset, but if the other person is overwhelmed, it not helpful to continue (neutral).

2. When our partner blows, we do something constructive in the context of value/boundary.  There are 100 different ways to do this based on the specific situation. It can be rushing to the bathroom to pee (worse case) or it could just be saying "I'm flooded right now - can you summarize me in a few words what you are upset about and let me go for a walk and think about it - I see that you are upset - this is important - we can talk after dinner tomorrow."  Neutral. Constructive.

The point is to get on the same side of these thing and to evolve the conflict style. This approach has some future potential upside.

Walking out the the room saying "I will not tolerate your bad behavior" is just a counter-punch. It might stifle the fight for now, but it just sets up the next one to be even more aggressive.

[Red5]

... .But I think recognizing and understanding the traits in us that drew us to BPD partners (or drew them to us) is important in taking the steps we need to improve our lives.

... .We played a part in our story. We made decisions. It's important to take responsibility for that, but to also look for what may have led us to make those choices in the first place.

... .In my case, I am a calm, even-keeled person.

... .I'm a fixer. I'm nice. I'm non-confrontational.

Sometime during the first 3-5 months of dating uBPDw... .back in the summer of 2007... .I remember her saying to me, "Red5, you are one of the most quiet and peaceful men I've ever met"... .?

I remember hearing this from her, sometime after she texted me, "I love you" for the first time... .yeah, a text (think flip phone era)... .and I also remember telling her, after she shared with me one night that she "had a temper", and that it was an inherent thing in her family (F'o'O)... .I said... ."wow, I don't see that at all... .and where have you been all my life, you are such a calm and collected person, you have it all together, you are something else, how did “I” ever catch your eye (yahoo personals)... .I don't think you could ever make me mad"... .yeah... .I said all those things to her

Her mask slipped a few weeks/months later during Christmas, our first one as a couple.

I remember thinking, .well, that's the end of this "sweet and innocent relationship"... .its all “down-hill from here”… where did that anger come from?... .wow ; (

... ."I must have done something wrong"... .to upset her like that, “but what did I do”?

… I’ve just got to try harder to please her” I thought to myself…  

Looking back, I had _no idea_ what was in store for me from this woman…

Looking back now, and from what I've read, and understand... .a lot of major dysregulations come right after, if not on the heels of a major upset in the life of the pw/BPD... .

… case in point, her beloved y-orkie of fourteen years passes away, and less than twenty-four hours later, all H3LL breaks lose… her S31 told me on the phone about four weeks ago now, “mom loves that dog more than me”… she had / had this puppy since right after her own divorce back in two thousand and four… so it was a huge emotional loss for her, and me2, I certainly did love that little dog, as I’d known her for the last eleven years… anyways ~>>  this was a huge trigger to her KABOOM !

… end game…

So back on topic here… “”looking back now, and from what I've read, and understand... .a lot of major dysregulations come right after, if not on the heels of a _major upset_ or crisis in the life of the pw/BPD””... .In this case; Christmas 2007, when her mask slipped for the very first time, her F'o'O father has just passed away suddenly on that previous Thanksgiving, just a few weeks prior... .as in the very day of (Thanksgiving) that following night, in the early next morning.

So I got "emotionally ventilated"… ie’ shredded, and shot to pieces by her a few weeks later during Christmas, after the funeral, and all of that was over… right before Christmas, and as well afterwards, a major fight, .well... .she raged, I just “took it”... .I got devalued with great prejudice by her during the Christmas dinner, in front of her F’o’O… yes; the big F'o’O family get-together, and present exchanges were happening, and myself and my son and my D15 (at the time) were with me, yes, the F'o"O interactions were interesting to me... .I remember thinking (what the heck)… what is this?... .why is she acting this way… this came out of nowhere... .hey now, I was "comforting her", I was _THERE_ for her... .and she treats me like this... .this was the first red flag... .there were a few other "incidents" previous, but they were only "checkered flags"... .

… “what boundaries”…  at that time, I had zero idea (inkling) about healthily boundaries, .or anything in regards to knowledge of personality disorders, I was still stuck in the ptsd/cptsd frame of mind thinking... .as in, the reason you're (ex wife, & previous gf) are (were) so damned "crazy" is because they were abused as a children, which was well confirmed to me by both of my previous love interests, the ex-wife, and the red headed real-estate agent ex/previous gf (?)... .and at that time I understood (?) that there was no "fixing" that, that was a "bridge too far"... .a no win situation, hopeless... .might as well just walk away, like my first wife did after twenty-one years of marriage... and I "smelled" that on the red head (previous) gf, after her own divorce, yeah we “met” right before hers was finalized… she had shared way too many aspects about her childhood, and life, and as well her previous marriage (turn your hair gray stuff)  ... .so I ran!… when she wanted to "close the deal"... .ie' get married!... .whoa!

I remember the first date with uBPDw, we walked on the beach, for hours... .and I heard it all... .fill in the blank ____.

I understand this now to be a red flag... .if the damsel in distress tells you, the brand new date ALL about her ex's... .this is not a good sign, and on the first date now less, but back then I was clueless... .and fresh off the turnip truck ... .

I believe I'm attracted to these women (w/BPD), even before I hear their life story... .and I also think that "they" are attracted to me... .three times now this has happened to me in my life... .once is a "one off", two times a coincidence, and the third time, that's a pattern man!... a "trend".

Yeah, .so Red5, where is that "quiet and peaceful man" now?... ."where you at Man"... .you still “in there” somewhere… so what happened to the girl of your dreams... .hmmm,

So how are your boundaries looking today?

Red5

[Cat Familiar]

In this process, we focused on the mismatch of values. This is most often what lies deep and at the root of relationship failure. While communication tools (such as we teach here) can greatly help in making the day to day issues in a relationship more palatable, ultimately, if the values are in conflict and remain in conflict, the relationship will fail (either end or be in prolonged conflict).

What ultimately led to the end of my first marriage to a BPDh was a conflict in values. He had ASPD traits and respecting the law was not one of his values. Also verbal and physical abuse, though he apologized at times, were part of his repertoire.

We seem to be at an impasse on this and the more I think about it, the more I suspect that my family, my refusal to treat them the way he thinks I should (cuss them out for what he interprets as an insult, stop talking to them for a year), will be our undoing. He's said his first wife's "always taking her family's side" was what destroyed his first marriage. Early in our relationship, I believed what he said about her, that she was too attached to them and that they were unreasonable, snobby and demanding. But I'm starting to think that they've been unfairly maligned.

Isn't it interesting how, once you get to know them better, that you reinterpret things they've told you?

My current husband said that his ex-wife yelled at him for hours every night. Having known her years ago, this isn't a stretch to believe. However, many times when I've been totally calm and discussing things with him, he's accused me of being angry and raising my voice. Perhaps I might have said something a bit louder when he has turned his back and walked into another room, but I know for a fact that I wasn't angry.

However, I can easily see how his behavior could make someone angry. He would feel really insulted if, when we were talking, I turned my back and left the room, even though I was still in earshot.

My sense is that both of them are volatile people and that he was blaming her for all the discord in their relationship, instead of owning his part.

[Cat Familiar]

1. It time of calm and happiness, it is important to discuss this value, ask what we could do better, talk about what everyone could do better - agree on some constructive rules (boundary) - like if one of us is reacting strongly and the other is flooded by the reaction, lets take a loving/tactful retreat with the promise to come back to the topic and discuss it together and open-mindedly when everyone is calm. This is a most constructive thing we can do.

The value is: loving and constructive conflict resolution
The boundary is: its OK to get upset, but if the other person is overwhelmed, it not helpful to continue (neutral).

2. When our partner blows, we do something constructive in the context of value/boundary.  There are 100 different ways to do this based on the specific situation. It can be rushing to the bathroom to pee (worse case) or it could just be saying "I'm flooded right now - can you summarize me in a few words what you are upset about and let me go for a walk and think about it - I see that you are upset - this is important - we can talk after dinner tomorrow."  Neutral. Constructive.

These are good suggestions, particularly the summary. I tend to exit when things just begin to head south. This isn't really out of character for me, unless we're sitting around watching TV, as I'm constantly attending to all sorts of things.

That said, if he is starting to become agitated, there comes a point where he is unable or unwilling to articulate his feelings. He will say, "It doesn't matter" or "You don't care." When I used to ask him for more information, it tended to rapidly increase his anger and volatility, so as a way of respecting his process, I learned to exit and return when he had cooled down.

Being around horses, I've learned to read emotion quite well, more so in animals than humans, but I'm getting better with humans.  

Since they're powerful animals that outweigh me by 8 to 10 times, I've learned to be highly attuned to their emotional responses. And sometimes the best strategy for my own safety is to distance myself until they've calmed down. This isn't always easy when riding, so I tune into their growing agitation as soon as I notice it and employ different strategies to help them regain the thinking part of their brain, rather than the reactive part.

So I do this too with my husband. Sometimes with horses you just have to let them "pitch a fit" and then they'll be over it. When that happens, I get off and watch, a safe distance away, from the ground. I believe the same is true with pwBPD. They get so overwhelmed by emotion and they just need to discharge it.

At this point, I no longer want to be a witness to it. That leads to less embarrassment and shame for my husband afterwards.

[Ozzie101]

I need to have some sort of conversation with H during a calm time to come up with some rules of engagement for our "discussions." Thing is, he's the one who starts them, continues them and gets upset. Basically, I sit there and just take it. Not healthy or constructive, I know. In my case, I'm not sure how it will work. He really gets worked up and all logic and reason (and compassion) go out the window. It becomes damage control, trying to keep him from crossing over into the violent territory. Mostly I keep my mouth shut.

2. When our partner blows, we do something constructive in the context of value/boundary.  There are 100 different ways to do this based on the specific situation. It can be rushing to the bathroom to pee (worse case) or it could just be saying "I'm flooded right now - can you summarize me in a few words what you are upset about and let me go for a walk and think about it - I see that you are upset - this is important - we can talk after dinner tomorrow."  Neutral. Constructive.

The point is to get on the same side of these thing and to evolve the conflict style. This approach has some future potential upside.

Walking out the the room saying "I will not tolerate your bad behavior" is just a counter-punch. It might stifle the fight for now, but it just sets up the next one to be even more aggressive.

This is the part I really haven't figured out. Most of the dysregulations occur late at night. I can't go out for a walk or come up with an errand to run. The time I stayed neutral and tried the "I'm overwhelmed. Let's talk about this tomorrow" thing, it did NOT go well. He kept going, railed at me for being selfish and making it all about me and my schedule. When I tried to leave and go to another room, he blocked me. Again, I stayed neutral and calm but there was no ending the rant until he ran himself out.

[Ozzie101]

That said, if he is starting to become agitated, there comes a point where he is unable or unwilling to articulate his feelings. He will say, "It doesn't matter" or "You don't care." When I used to ask him for more information, it tended to rapidly increase his anger and volatility, so as a way of respecting his process, I learned to exit and return when he had cooled down.

So I do this too with my husband. Sometimes with horses you just have to let them "pitch a fit" and then they'll be over it. When that happens, I get off and watch, a safe distance away, from the ground. I believe the same is true with pwBPD. They get so overwhelmed by emotion and they just need to discharge it.

At this point, I no longer want to be a witness to it. That leads to less embarrassment and shame for my husband afterwards.

I just wish I could figure out how to get to the safe distance. Like you, I no longer want to be a witness/audience member for his dysregulations. Yet I haven't found a way to be able to leave. I have been able to successfully intercept him at the pass a few times lately, but it doesn't always work.

[Cat Familiar]

I just wish I could figure out how to get to the safe distance. Like you, I no longer want to be a witness/audience member for his dysregulations. Yet I haven't found a way to be able to leave. I have been able to successfully intercept him at the pass a few times lately, but it doesn't always work.

Sometime during the first 3-5 months of dating uBPDw ... .back in the summer of 2007 ... .I remember her saying to me, "Red5, you are one of the most quiet and peaceful men I've ever met" ... .?

It's ironic that pwBPD are attracted to those of us who have so much quiet composure, yet they seem to want to challenge us and see if they can get us to react angrily. And if they cannot, then they will accuse us of "Not caring".