Therapist wants me to come up with a plan

[WitzEndWife]

I want to bounce something off of you all. My uBPDh had yet another violent outburst this weekend. He got upset that I left his name off of my nieces' Xmas gifts because I wasn't sure if he wanted his name on them (since he talks nothing but trash about my sister and her husband, and takes zero interest in the kids). I figured that I would leave it up to him to decide whether he wanted to be included. Well, clearly, that was the wrong choice on my end. And, because I didn't write it on there for him, he threw an epic tantrum. He started ranting and raving, stomping around, then took a bottle of my dog's medication and smashed it all over the floor. I screamed at him to get out. He walked out for a couple of minutes. I grabbed the broom and started sweeping up all of the pills and pill dust, so that the dogs wouldn't eat them. He walked back into the house and started ranting again, then grabbed the broom out of my hands and broke it over his knee. I again screamed for him to get out. He made a strangling gesture with his hands at me, then stormed out again. He returned a second later and tried to finish cleaning up. I told him I didn't want him in the house because he was violent. He kept yelling, so I ran upstairs, where our two dogs were hiding in the bedroom, and locked myself in there. He stormed upstairs, tried the door handle. Realizing it was locked, he kicked it down, splitting the door frame. I was on the bed, crying. He stood over me and ranted and ranted. I said nothing, just cried. He said I made him break the door because I disrespected him.

Of course, as is usual, he apologized after he'd calmed down, and then expected everything to go back to normal. Like we simply had a little "tiff." I texted my therapist everything, and she says I should start thinking of my "plan" to end things.

The thing is, with this marriage, there isn't a good place to start. If I address this when he's all happy, he'll act like I'm a wicked heartless witch who hates him and is throwing him out on the street. If I address it when he's enraged or agitated, who knows what he'll do? I need help, I need examples of other people's plans, who were successful in breaking things off. What did you say? How did you present it? Was it during a "calm" moment or a rage moment?

My thinking is maybe I suggest he go be with his mom for a bit, that we take some time apart. I don't know if that will be the best thing, but it could sort of soothe the "abandonment" issue. Obviously I wouldn't implement this until after the holidays, but I need to get to a point where my safety is a priority.

[hope2727]

I am sorry you endured that extreme of an act. Please be careful. Tell people what is happening. Look up how to make a safety plan. I can tell you there is no "good" way to go ahead. You will be the bad guy no matter what. So do what you need todo to take care of yourself. He is an adult and will have to take care of himself.

[Cat Familiar]

I want to bounce something off of you all. My uBPDh had yet another violent outburst this weekend... .he threw an epic tantrum. He started ranting and raving, stomping around, then took a bottle of my dog's medication and smashed it all over the floor.

That certainly got your attention. Not in a good way.

He walked back into the house and started ranting again, then grabbed the broom out of my hands and broke it over his knee. I again screamed for him to get out. He made a strangling gesture with his hands at me, then stormed out again. He returned a second later and tried to finish cleaning up. I told him I didn't want him in the house because he was violent. He kept yelling, so I ran upstairs, where our two dogs were hiding in the bedroom, and locked myself in there. He stormed upstairs, tried the door handle. Realizing it was locked, he kicked it down, splitting the door frame. I was on the bed, crying. He stood over me and ranted and ranted. I said nothing, just cried. He said I made him break the door because I disrespected him.

I’ve been following your story for a while. I remember how you tried to support him when he began a real estate career, but he didn’t pursue leads and ultimately that plan fizzled out. What positives, if any, does he bring to the relationship?

Of course, as is usual, he apologized after he'd calmed down, and then expected everything to go back to normal. Like we simply had a little "tiff." I texted my therapist everything, and she says I should start thinking of my "plan" to end things.

The thing is, with this marriage, there isn't a good place to start. If I address this when he's all happy, he'll act like I'm a wicked heartless witch who hates him and is throwing him out on the street.

And that would be bad... .why?

If I address it when he's enraged or agitated, who knows what he'll do? I need help, I need examples of other people's plans, who were successful in breaking things off. What did you say? How did you present it? Was it during a "calm" moment or a rage moment?

You definitely don’t want to break it off when he’s enraged. It’s frightening what he’s capable of just because his name wasn’t included on a gift.

My former husband also raged. I broke it off when he was calm and he was truly shocked that I was not going to forgive him once more, but I was done. You have to be able to be perceived in an unflattering light. So what if he thinks you are a “heartless witch”?

My thinking is maybe I suggest he go be with his mom for a bit, that we take some time apart. I don't know if that will be the best thing, but it could sort of soothe the "abandonment" issue. Obviously I wouldn't implement this until after the holidays, but I need to get to a point where my safety is a priority.

He has shown signs of violence that could easily be transferred from inanimate objects to you. My ex first broke objects before he began striking me. Please talk to a DV counselor in addition to your therapist. You are at risk.  
Cat

[Cat Familiar]

WEW, if you haven’t taken th MOSAIC test, please do.

https://www.mosaicmethod.com

And let us know what your score is.

Cat

[Fian]

I don't know much about DV, but wouldn't it be safer to just leave or get a restraining order and then call him on the phone rather than trust that he will be composed when you inform him in person?  When a violent person thinks that you are leaving him for good, all bets are off on what can happen.

[AskingWhy]

Cat, thank you again for the MOSAIC link!  

WEW, my uBPD/uNPD H also has occasional rages.  He has broken objects, punched holes in walls and doors, broken glass dishes and stemware.  The pets all scatter through the house when H dysregulates.

My first priority is to get the pets safe and away from any broken glass or wood, etc.  In the past, I would weep and help H clean up the mess while he raged at me for "making" him angry.   Now, I get the pets safe, and leave H to clean up his own mess.

Cat's "end of empathy" state is what might happen to you eventually.  

I am nearing that stage myself.  Some years ago, we had an elderly, deaf, dying dog who had soiled himself in the middle of the night. H got out of bed, raged at the dog, then yanked the soiled dog bed out from under the terrified dog.  I immediate raged at H, then comforted the terrified dog.  H said he could not help himself, that he was sleep-deprived from the dog's health issues, etc. etc. which is pure rubbish.  We know even  people raging can control themselves as spousal abusers will punch a woman on the arms or areas where bruises won't show.   Raging people are IN CONTROL of themselves all through the abuse, even though they claim they aren't.

H is so ashamed of that night that he forbids me to bring it up.  Of course, I won't be ordered to keep silent about that night where he frightened an innocent, dying animal.

Blaming is a cognitive distortion.  

I know as a fact H would never rage at his infant grandchildren for crying or being fussy about sleeping--after all, they are an extension of himself via his children.  For his grandchildren, H has infinite patience, even in the face of tantrums or when the children are ill.  My H chose to rage at the dog.

WEW, please take the MOSAIC test and let us know your score.  Also read the book, "The Gift of Fear," by Gavin de Becker, the man who designed MOSAIC.  This book talks about our instincts of fear, and how we need to trust them.  You can buy this on Amazon Kindle and read it in private.

BTW, restraining orders don't work.  See the studies presented by De Becker.    

[Ozzie101]

That sounds terrifying, WEW. I echo the others in encouraging you to take the MOSAIC test. Also, please reach out to a domestic violence counselor.

My uBPDh has never physically hurt me and swears he wouldn't. Actually, his rages have been a lot better lately. But his dysregulations continue. And for while, he would do things like break objects, glasses, etc. Again, that hasn't happened in a while, but I feel like it very easily could. And a couple of weeks ago, he blocked me from leaving a room (didn't put his hands on me, but he's got 5 inches and 65 pounds on me so he didn't have to). Last week, I had my first session with a DV counselor and she was wonderful — a lot of great information. It was just a relief to talk to someone who knows something about the subject and could say "This is what this is. It's not in your head. You don't deserve it. Here's what you can do to keep yourself safe."

My MOSAIC score was a 6, by the way. Not "Get out of there now!" level, but apparently the type that often does escalate.

DV organizations can provide all kinds of help and advice (particularly when it comes to safety plans and leaving — they know the statistics and methods that have a better chance of working) and I really hope you'll reach out to them. If he's doing things like breaking down doors, doing damage to you physically isn't a far step.
 

[WitzEndWife]

WEW, if you haven’t taken th MOSAIC test, please do.

https://www.mosaicmethod.com

And let us know what your score is.

Cat

I took the test. He got a 7 out of 10, so I guess that's pretty high. You're right, I'm not getting anything out of it at this point. I don't know why I'm so afraid to be made to feel like a monster. I guess that's the power of BPD. I know I have to own my feelings and take responsibility for my own decisions. It's not like there's some magic spell over me. It sure feels like it though. I will talk with my therapist about this today.

[formflier]

Help me understand the decision not to call 911 while locked in the room and while he was busting down the door.

There are stories on these boards of people that waited too long and ended up being assaulted.  Lots of surgeries and jail time for the assaulter.

How has trying to talk this out with your husband worked prior to this?

FF

[flourdust]

7 on the MOSAIC test is high. I think I scored somewhere around that point when I decided to divorce. This is tough, tough stuff. You can get through it.

I spent a loong time trying to draw up the perfect plan to tell my wife I wanted a divorce ... .I was worried about her dysregulating and getting the kid involved, harming herself, etc. It was like planning a battle. Looking back, it was a bit silly ... .like trying to plan the perfect wedding day, instead of working on creating a healthy marriage.

My recommendation is to follow two simple guidelines: 1) safety first! and 2) carry out your own plan, without his cooperation. Have friends/witnesses present when you tell him, tell him in a neutral place, have the locks changed and a friend to stay with you overnight, pack a bag with his necessities and bring it to him when you tell him, rent him a hotel room for a couple of days and give him the key. Present it as a done deal, with protection in place to block any dysregulation on his part.

For a better discussion on this and related topics, I encourage you to post on the Family Law board, where the members address these types of scenarios all the time.

[WitzEndWife]

The issue I have with packing him up and sending him off, pulling the rug out from under him, is that it is exactly what his mom did to him when he was 14, which probably was yet another catalyst to his BPD in the first place. I know that I don't have a responsibility for someone else's emotions, but that feels like the wrong way to go about it. My gut says not to do that. I read so many "How to break up with your BPD partner" articles, and they all say to do it like that, but it feels so horrible, like the person is some stranger in your house. Maybe it's because I don't feel THAT afraid of him. It's weird to say. Maybe I should? It feels like he has self control and doesn't want to hurt me. It feels like he just wants attention, recognition. He wants to be seen and heard. I have a call with my therapist in 30 minutes. I'll let everyone know what she says. It's a lot to unpack here.

[Ozzie101]

It is a lot to process and I do hope you'll keep us updated.

Like you, I'm struggling with what to do. My case is a bit different. H hasn't broken down any doors (though he has blocked me from leaving a room) but he has broken things and has been verbally and emotionally abusive. However, in my situation, he has more of a position of financial power. He makes about 5x what I do and the house is in his name. Though, in a way, that might be easier. All I have to do is decide to leave. I don't have to kick him out. And I do have a place to go.

Regardless, the thought of leaving makes me feel almost sick because I'd feel like I was abandoning him. I vowed to love him in sickness and in health. Doesn't this count as sickness? Am I not supposed to stand by him? Or do I just basically confirm every fear and every negative thought he has. I know he feels guilty when he does things. It frustrates him that he's like this. So, I feel guilty for thinking of abandoning him when he has done a lot of great things for me.

Like you, I don't really feel scared of him. I don't believe he'd hurt me. And yet, there's a tiny voice deep in there that is starting to say, "Yes. It's possible. This is how it starts."

What I'm trying to wrap my head around is that, yes, he's been wonderful, but he's also treated me in ways that no one deserves to be treated. I made a vow, but so did he. And he broke it.

The most important thing in this is your safety and I hope you'll do whatever you need to do.
 

[formflier]

  I read so many "How to break up with your BPD partner" articles, and they all say to do it like that, but it feels so horrible

Do they articles imply you will feel good about it?

FF

[WitzEndWife]

I told my therapist about my concerns. She asked me if I felt safe at home. I said I did, mostly. I said I felt like he wanted to be seen and heard and "take me down a peg" rather than hurt me. She said it sounded like he was having an argument with himself, at its core, that he was angry with himself, and I was just the "bystander" caught up in it.

I told her I didn't want to encounter this sort of thing again, but that I didn't think I could just pack him up and pull the rug out from under him. She asked me if I had tried communicating with him about the relationship. I told him I hadn't really done that since before we got married (3 years ago). I'm a bit communication averse to begin with, but it's definitely worse with him.

She suggested trying to open the lines of communication up before throwing in the towel. At least then, she thinks, I will feel better about it. She suggests I start with something easy, and work toward more serious/intense conversations.

I think it will feel better for me to have expressed myself, and not to have kept everything bottled up, regardless of what happens.

[formflier]

Does the T know about the door being busted in, and the hands simulating squeezing your neck?

FF

[WitzEndWife]

Yes, I told her everything.

[formflier]

Why not let him choose if he wants to stay?  I guess I'm shocked that you continue to put yourself in the position of decider.

Is there really a decision if you should live in fear in your house?   I suppose that technically there is a decision there, but what rational person would argue that by deciding you won't live in a house where doors are busted in... .strangulation is simulated... .dogs routinely are scared... .dog medicine smashed... .etc etc etc that YOU are deciding to throw him out.

What if you respected his decision either way?

If he seeks therapy to understand and STOP his domestic violence (and then complies) then he stays.  If he wants to not take responsibility for the busted door... .let him find a house where he can threaten people and is welcome.

Is it your responsibility to provide an environment where he is able to do such things without consequence?

Have you thought about why you didn't call 911 when he kicked in the door?  Have you ever called 911 on him?

Remember... .your score (7 out of 10) is high. 

I'll be painfully frank here.  Living in a house where doors and kicked in, strangulation is simulated (etc etc etc), yet reporting to the therapist that you feel safe at home (mostly)... .well... there is a big disconnect there.

That disconnect worries me.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I agree with FF. Living in a house where doors and kicked in, strangulation is simulated (etc etc etc), yet reporting to the therapist that you feel safe at home (mostly)... .well... there is a big disconnect there.
 

Having been a DV victim, I understand how strong denial can be. "Oh, he'd never hurt me." "He just broke some objects."

"He's having an argument with himself?" I'm not sure your T has enough experience with DV. I would suggest that you talk to some people at your local DV center and get their take on what transpired with your husband.

First it was anti-Semitic language, then breaking the dog's pill bottle, then the broom handle, then the strangling gesture, then kicking the door down, and ranting at you and blaming you for "disrespecting him".

This is no way to live. And I'm alarmed at how quickly he turned up the volume.

[WitzEndWife]

I didn't call 911 because 1) he wasn't going to hit me, and 2) I didn't want them to shoot my dogs, who undoubtedly would bark and try to protect me. Also, uBPDh has in the past threatened to commit suicide by provoking police to shoot him, so it's honestly a last resort. Also, it's not where my mind goes during these instances.

I think your solution is a good one. I can't tell you why I don't feel afraid of him hitting me. I don't. MOSAIC is merely a profiling, and a lot of the questions are very vague. The 7 out of 10 is high, but it's not saying that he will do something. It's just saying that, based on the questions, uBPDh matches with others who have a proclivity toward physical violence toward their partners.

I don't have a good answer for you about any of this. I guess I'm just dumb and cowardly.

[WitzEndWife]

FYI my therapist is a specialist with BPD.

[formflier]

I'm over twice the size of my wife, so my perspective is a bit different.

She has thrown things before but clearly was trying to scare or pitch a fit or something else, rather than hit me with what was thrown.

Over a year ago... .there was some financial thing she conjured up with associated drama.  I tried to solve it in a way she didn't like and she threw an ATM card at me... .and hit me with it.

Certainly there was no physical impact, but I knew that our relationship changed forever at that point.

I draw on that feeling when I hold boundaries around financial things, so I suppose in that sense the incident was useful, yet I wish I never experienced that.

My prayer for you WitzEndWife is that you never experience anything more than a "simulation".

The momentum of your relationship is going in a bad direction, I hope you can find the strength to get momentum going in a different direction.

FF

[Fian]

Based on what you are saying, I believe you are not prepared to leave and instead are interested in saving the relationship, however is rages are not something you want to tolerate.  Most of the advice seems to be pushing in the direction of leaving.

However, if we start with the assumption not leaving, wanting to stop the rages, what advice does the board have?  FF gave some advice on insisting on him going to counseling.  Can we flesh out that strategy more?

P.S.  I think he has manipulated you into not calling the police saying he will get himself killed.  My advice is to not take the police card away.  I would instead reverse it and say, if you do x again, I will call the police.  Make it very clear that certain behavior results in a 911 call.  As for the suicide threat, if he wants to kill himself, he doesn't need the police to assist.  The fact that he hasn't tried indicates that he isn't serious about killing himself.

[Ozzie101]

However, if we start with the assumption not leaving, wanting to stop the rages, what advice does the board have?  FF gave some advice on insisting on him going to counseling.  Can we flesh out that strategy more?

Just FYI, the DV counselor I meet with warned me that while counseling is good, there are a couple of red flags to watch for. If it's clear he's doing it just to save the relationship or because he thinks it will make you happy, be concerned. Therapy generally doesn't work in those situations. He needs to do it for himself -- because he WANTS to. Otherwise, he's unlikely to stick with it and do the work required.

Also, choice of counselor is vital It's very common for BPDs and abusers to be able to manipulate and put on a good face for a therapist. Sometimes the victim ends up in an even more dangerous situation than before.

Not trying to put down counseling. Just that there are some things to really consider.

[formflier]

 FF gave some advice on insisting on him going to counseling.  Can we flesh out that strategy more?
 

That's sort of what I said.  The nuance (or maybe it isn't nuance) is important.

If he wants to remain in the house, he gets professional help for DV... and complies.  You also have a message that you will understand and respect his decision to move out should he not want to work on DV.

Be clear... this is a dichotomous choice.  Be clear about using the term "domestic violence".

You have already made your choice... .you are going to live in a peaceful house and are in therapy to address removing violence from your life.  (note... you don't directly blame him you are owning your role)

I 100% agree with Fian... .don't "buy" the suicide threat.  Perhaps said better... .if you call police and he gets shot, you are not responsible for that.

Tough stuff...  

FF

[formflier]

"Compliance" is important. 

We can't know and shouldn't attempt to "mind read" about why someone is going to T.

Assume the best, watch carefully and time will tell.
 
I'm not aware of any other way to know for sure... .other than use time and focus way more on actions than on words.

FF

[Ozzie101]

True. We can't know motives. The counselor just said to listen for statements like using "we" instead of "I" or "this will save our relationship and make everything better." For it to work, he has to want it -- relationship or not.

[formflier]

True. We can't know motives. The counselor just said to listen for statements like using "we" instead of "I" or "this will save our relationship and make everything better." For it to work, he has to want it -- relationship or not.

I agree... 100%.  How will you know?  If you don't hear those statements... .is it 100% guaranteed he doesn't want it?

I'm not saying your T is wrong in the general teaching point.  Be wary about making the leap to applying a general lesson to a specific conversation.

Time will tell.

FF

[empath]

WEW, you are not dumb or cowardly. It is normal for people who are in abusive relationships to minimize their experiences so that they can continue to live in the situation for whatever reason. I would agree with Cat in recommending that you talk with the local DV shelter or the DV hotline - they have a online chat feature as well. They can help with creating a safety plan.

I am concerned about the idea of "making" your h move out. That's not really something that you can control. What are things that you can do and plan for yourself?

[Lalathegreat]

I’ve debated posting because I really hate that I’m in the position now of being “that girl”. You know the one - the “worst case scenario” girl who swoops in and sounds oh so overly dramatic in her representation of the worst possible end of the spectrum. But I feel like I need to.

Because I wasn’t afraid that my UBPDex would actually physically hurt me either. He had punched walls, broken things, raged, yelled, pulled his hair, and all but frothed at the mouth like a rabid animal... .but he always seemed to manage to control himself just enough that it all felt more like a desperate dysfunctional plea for attention, validation, and control. Interestingly, when I was here discussing his escalation from verbal raging to physically acting out I was also advised to take the MOSAIC. He scored a 7.

In the past 18 months I have had 3 surgeries to reconstruct my mid face. He spent 6 months in jail and has been on parole for 12. (He gets off parole next month.) I would give ANYTHING to go back and have another shot at making a few key decisions, not only for myself, but strange as it sounds - for HIM. But in no way am I wanting this to seem judgemental. When I was “in it”, I really felt unable to be too harsh in my efforts to end the relationship, or even to lay down and maintain firm boundaries surrounding his abusive behaviors. So believe me when I say that I understand your position and why it feels impossible to make such a dramatic stand.

In so many ways I feel that I have no good advice or road map, what I do know is that the past 18 months have been a pretty interesting journey down the path I wish I hadn’t taken. I took that path because I didn’t choose... .well... .ANYTHING for myself when I had the chance to.

Please stay safe. At the very least have a “go” bag packed and in your car just in case. Talk with a close friend or two who can give you a place to be short term if you need to get out quickly. I hope you never need to use your escape plan but better safe than sorry.

I’ll be thinking of you, please be careful.

Lala

[Cat Familiar]

Hi Lala,
I'm another "that girl" but in a different way. I'm so glad that you're healing from your injuries.    

The way I'm "that girl" in an alternate way is because the last time my exH attacked me, I slept alone with a knife in my hand. I lost all my compassion that night and I vowed to myself that if he attacked me in my sleep that I would fight to the death, no matter what happened. Fortunately he didn't.

Feeling that feeling, and even sharing it with you all, it's really shocking and out of character for me. I've always been non violent and I've been a vegetarian most of my life. I never want to hurt anyone or any thing. But that night I totally lost it. He had hit me for the last time. Ever.

Thankfully he didn't wake me to continue the attack. Otherwise I would probably be spending the rest of my life in a cell.

So please, anybody who is dealing with domestic violence, please seek help from DV resources before things get really bad. I had been a victim for so many years but I had no clue that at some point, I would snap. There are many women in prison who were victimized for years and finally went over the bend.

No one deserves to be hit, yelled at, hurt. There are resources out there to help you. Please avail yourself of them.

Cat

[Ozzie101]

Thank you both so much for sharing your stories. They make my blood run cold but I keep them in my head to pull out during the good times -- along with memories of H's rages. They help me remember to not get too complacent. To not forget the cycle and the possibility of escalation. They're a part of why I'm seeing a DV counselor and am working on a safety plan. So, thank you.

[Lalathegreat]

Thank you Cat, I’m so sorry that you know what it’s like to be a “that girl”... . 

[Cat Familiar]

You've been through so much, Lala, and you've emerged with such a good attitude.    I hope that your kindness and empathy is well appreciated in the future.

As is the case with so many who've experienced DV, my story began with criticism and insults, something I was very accustomed to hearing from my mother, so it felt "familial". Then the isolation tactics began and he monitored my whereabouts. Again, this didn't diverge from the family pattern.

Around that time, his anger manifested in breaking objects and throwing things at me. From there, it devolved to hitting me in the solar plexus, knocking the wind out of me so that I was struggling to breathe. Then he would drop me to the ground, sit on my abdomen and wrap his fingers around my neck.

I had the feeling that he was very conscious of what he was doing. When he left bruises on me, they weren't anywhere that would be visible in public, other than once he gave me a black eye.

The most difficult thing for me was feeling the deep shame of being in such a relationship. Of course I covered for him. Our friends never knew what went on behind closed doors, but certainly they saw clues in the way he was so disrespectful to me.

When we were out shopping together, if he couldn't find me in a store, he'd whistle, like you're whistling for a dog and I was supposed to drop everything and run to find him. It was so demeaning.

I've spoken very little about this episode in my life, but I've written on this forum quite extensively. I want everyone who is or has been in an abusive relationship to know that there is life afterwards and that things can be really good once you re-take your power and autonomy. In some cases, you'll need to leave your abuser. Other cases, perhaps with therapy for both partners, things can get better.

Please, know that it's not your fault. No one deserves to be treated poorly.

Cat

[Red5]

From there, it devolved to hitting me

Jesus Cat ; (

That is sobering to read your post above, as well all the the others posts here... .

As a Man, and a Father, and also two times now married... .why on God’s green earth would a “man” ever think this kind of behavior is even remotely acceptable... .uh’ NO it’s not!

Thank God that you got away from him!

What is the line we hear a lot from the unnamed YouTube channel... .

“if it hurts, it ain’t love folks”... .good grief ; (

There are so many “bad players” out there in the world... .

Sending good karma ya’lls way 

Stay safe!

Red5

[Lalathegreat]

Well I thank you Cat for being so open here, I believe that so many people are being helped by your story.

I can relate certainly to the “shame”, I was covering up for my ex long before it became physical. And once I began to see signs that he could be a physical threat - forget about it. I confided in NO ONE.  I knew that they wouldn’t understand why I didn’t just leave - *I* didn’t understand why I didn’t just leave! This forum was the closest I came to giving voice to the horror my life had become.

And I echo your sentiments. While the past 18 months have been tremendously difficult, the freedom that came from being forced to let go of my ex, his son, and the FOG that I carried surrounding by own codependent need to be there for him, has allowed me to experience a happiness that I feared I may never have in my life again.

There IS life after these relationships... .it does take time to heal.

[AskingWhy]

You've been through so much, Lala, and you've emerged with such a good attitude.    I hope that your kindness and empathy is well appreciated in the future.

As is the case with so many who've experienced DV, my story began with criticism and insults, something I was very accustomed to hearing from my mother, so it felt "familial". Then the isolation tactics began and he monitored my whereabouts. Again, this didn't diverge from the family pattern.

Around that time, his anger manifested in breaking objects and throwing things at me. From there, it devolved to hitting me in the solar plexus, knocking the wind out of me so that I was struggling to breathe. Then he would drop me to the ground, sit on my abdomen and wrap his fingers around my neck.

I had the feeling that he was very conscious of what he was doing. When he left bruises on me, they weren't anywhere that would be visible in public, other than once he gave me a black eye.

The most difficult thing for me was feeling the deep shame of being in such a relationship. Of course I covered for him. Our friends never knew what went on behind closed doors, but certainly they saw clues in the way he was so disrespectful to me.

When we were out shopping together, if he couldn't find me in a store, he'd whistle, like you're whistling for a dog and I was supposed to drop everything and run to find him. It was so demeaning.

I've spoken very little about this episode in my life, but I've written on this forum quite extensively. I want everyone who is or has been in an abusive relationship to know that there is life afterwards and that things can be really good once you re-take your power and autonomy. In some cases, you'll need to leave your abuser. Other cases, perhaps with therapy for both partners, things can get better.

Please, know that it's not your fault. No one deserves to be treated poorly.

Cat

Cat, thank you for sharing this candour, and for the horror you endured.  I want to thank you again for pointing me in the direction of the MOSAIC test.

Yes, abusers are said to be out of control, but they are not.  They are conscious of every object they break and every punch they throw.

This book is great one to learn about DV, and it's a guide for all the good DV counselors out there.  (Some counselors don't have a clue about DV; H and I saw a counselor and she was eating out of his hand.  BPDs and NPDs can be clever chameleons.)  It's called, "Why Does He Do That?  Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men."

https://www.amazon.com/Why-Does-He-That-Controlling/dp/0425191656/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1545710648&sr=1-1&keywords=why+does+he+do+that

My H would rage at me when he blamed me for things that went wrong in his life.  He also projected his rage at his X W (who cheated on him, divorced him and took the children) at me.  In abusing me, he was working out his rage against her.  

[Cat Familiar]

Something I want everyone to be aware of in these relationships with difficult partners: The abuse often begins very gradually.

If they let us see the raging, violent side of them when first dating, probably 99% of us would never agree to another date.

How it often begins is that we make excuses for them. "He had a bad day at work." "Her childhood was terrible." "His first wife left him and took the kids." "She was abused by her previous boyfriend."

So we tolerate bad behavior that otherwise should send us running for the door. We tell ourselves, "I'm tough. I can handle it. I'm strong." But why should we tolerate it at all?

Over time we grow numb to it. And it gets worse. Insidiously. A slow drip drip drip of awfulness. Until it gets so bad that we cannot tolerate it anymore.

But what if we confronted each of those unkindnesses at the moment of origin, when they first began? What if we chose not to tolerate those small indignities? What then?

[Red5]

But what if we confronted each of those unkindnesses at the moment of origin, when they first began? What if we chose not to tolerate those small indignities? What then?

... .what if’ ?

I think that the relationship would have ended on the launch pad.

In my own experience... .I do remember push away rage on several occasions about two years into ‘dating’  ... .

But I dismissed it.

So fast forward to today... .you are correct Cat, the bad acting only increases incrementally over time until it culminates in one incident, which will be a ‘deal breaker’, and irrevocable in nature.

Take the behavior for what it is... .dysfunctional and abusive... .and possibly explosive,

And the fine line between verbal to actual physical abuse is very thin, and can be crossed in a split second... .

Be careful, be mindful... .have a plan to escape, before you or your most precious loved one gets hurt... .in my case it was my autistic Son.

Red5

[WitzEndWife]

Hi all,

I really appreciate this discussion and your stories, Lala and Cat. I know that not being scared of him is foolish, and I probably should be. The last time he raged out really badly was in September, where we were in the car and he drove erratically, and when he finally let me out of the car and I started walking away, he chased me and wouldn't let me go. The only reason he got away from me was a security guard at a library threatening to call the authorities. He didn't touch me, but he was following me, yelling.

Most of the time, I can de-escalate things, simply by shutting down, avoiding JADE-ing. I let him say mean things and yell, and send rage texts to my phone. However, I know that if I'm ever in another situation where he's raging out and I can't de-escalate things, I need to leave, immediately. And you're right, I should have a "go bag" stashed somewhere, either in the car or near the garage. I own the house, so my intent is to keep it and kick him out if it comes down to that, but for quick escapes, it's better to have things in order. I can go to a friend's house or to a hotel.

I don't want it to come down to a situation that I regret. I want to be happy. I want to feel safe.

There's already a lot of regret. I feel so dumb, like I wasted my only chance at being married and having kids. All because I didn't want to slow things down that were already in motion. Things started going sour a couple of months before he proposed and I still went through with it, hoping we could work things out. I spent our wedding party hoping he wouldn't get too drunk and embarrass me or himself. He was luckily on his best behavior that night.

If we divorce, I'll be in my 40s, suffering a 40-lb weight gain, and severe depression and anxiety. Not the most attractive. I probably will take a long time to be able to trust myself or a man again. The likelihood of me finding another person or being able to have children is slim. So, it's sad, and I guess I'm mourning that a bit.

But, then again, I put myself in this position and I deserve the consequences. Now, I just have to find my way out.

[Cat Familiar]

I know that not being scared of him is foolish, and I probably should be.

No need to be scared, just stay mindful.

The last time he raged out really badly was in September, where we were in the car and he drove erratically, and when he finally let me out of the car and I started walking away, he chased me and wouldn't let me go.

It's not safe for a raging pwBPD to be behind the wheel.

Most of the time, I can de-escalate things, simply by shutting down, avoiding JADE-ing. I let him say mean things and yell, and send rage texts to my phone. However, I know that if I'm ever in another situation where he's raging out and I can't de-escalate things, I need to leave, immediately. And you're right, I should have a "go bag" stashed somewhere, either in the car or near the garage. I own the house, so my intent is to keep it and kick him out if it comes down to that, but for quick escapes, it's better to have things in order. I can go to a friend's house or to a hotel.

Excellent. Do get your "go bag" ready.

There's already a lot of regret. I feel so dumb, like I wasted my only chance at being married and having kids. All because I didn't want to slow things down that were already in motion. Things started going sour a couple of months before he proposed and I still went through with it, hoping we could work things out.

Don't beat yourself up about this. You weren't dumb, just trusting and hopeful. We all have stories where we didn't pay attention to the red flags.  

If we divorce, I'll be in my 40s, suffering a 40-lb weight gain, and severe depression and anxiety. Not the most attractive. I probably will take a long time to be able to trust myself or a man again. The likelihood of me finding another person or being able to have children is slim. So, it's sad, and I guess I'm mourning that a bit.

Understandable that you feel some grief. However you might feel less anxious and depressed than you would imagine. I was never overweight, but I lost 18 pounds in a month when I initiated my divorce from my first husband. And I wasn't doing anything to try and lose weight. He'd always criticized me for not being runway model skinny--think Kate Moss when she was doing her "heroin chic" anorexic look--that was his ideal woman.

The irony was that during the entire length of our marriage, I had tried, and failed, to lose weight. Then when I threw in the towel, the weight just dropped without me doing anything. In retrospect, I think all the anxiety I was carrying around affected my metabolism somehow, because I no longer had that sense of anxiousness which was formerly my ambient state. And I never regained the weight, other than about 5 pounds over the following years. I did get a bit too skinny, but I felt free and almost weightless when I was finally out from under his control.

But, then again, I put myself in this position and I deserve the consequences. Now, I just have to find my way out.

Hey, that sounds like you beating yourself up. No. Don't do that. Hey, we all have regrets. You just trusted someone who didn't deserve your trust.

[AskingWhy]

If we divorce, I'll be in my 40s, suffering a 40-lb weight gain, and severe depression and anxiety. Not the most attractive. I probably will take a long time to be able to trust myself or a man again. The likelihood of me finding another person or being able to have children is slim. So, it's sad, and I guess I'm mourning that a bit.

But, then again, I put myself in this position and I deserve the consequences. Now, I just have to find my way out.

WEW, you are aware of your H's state of mind and why he does the things he does, and that is what is important.    

Don't beat yourself up for something you did not know at the time of your marriage.  You entered this marriage with honesty and an open heart.  I suspect you were, like many of us, deceived and even love bombed into thinking your H was the man of your dreams.  Heck, I was.  I was married in three months to a man I thought loved me and would put me above all else.

I have been in my marriage to my uBPD H for over 20 years.  (This started falling apart several months into the marriage:  rages, breaking things, threats of divorce.)  I know of some women who have been in for 30 years.  Time does not matter.  I also suffered from anxiety and depression, and still cope with bouts of anxiety.  I have the power, however, to overcome these now.  You will, too.

Awareness does wonders.  You now have the knowledge and the power to dictate your involvement in your marriage--or not--and on your own terms.

Once my H was driving me home from a medical procedure.  (I have disabilities.)  I was told not to drive.  On the way home, H (lacking empathy) launched into his dissatisfaction at my depression and inability to clean the house to his liking.  I asked him why he had no empathy for me at that moment in time.  (Stupid of me, yes, I know.)  H immediately launched into a rage driving on the way home from the hospital.

He stopped the car in the middle of traffic, raged at me for being unappreciative and being a b*tch, put the car in park--still in the middle of traffic--leaving me in the passenger seat while he walked off!  You can't make up things like this.  BPDs are capable or doing anything they want in order to feel like they are in power.  (H was raised in poverty by a uNPD F, and his X W is most likely uNPD.  All of his children are in the NPD and BPD spectrum with issues like drug addiction, homelessness, promiscuity and suicide attempts.)

Frantic the car would be rear ended by oncoming traffic, I scrambled to get out of the passenger side of the car so I could at least drive the car to the curb and park it.  Traffic was light, but an inattentive driver would have rear ended the car--with me in it.

As I was struggling to get out of the car, H reappeared from around the corner, raging, of course.  He asked me if I was ready to stop being a b*tch and abusing him.  I was too terrified from being abandoned in traffic to argue and in pain.  All I wanted to do was get home and rest.  All the way home--a good 20 minutes or so--H harangued me all the way home while I listened (not really, I was numb to it all) and was called every name in the book.  

That incident caused me to start seriously looking at my options to leave.  I sought a lawyer and found out my rights.  I was happy that he had no hold over me, and that I always had the option to leave on my own.  It was a wonderful feeling just to discover this.

H controlled me with abuse.  Over the many years of the marriage, H had effectively reduced my self esteem to nothing.  It took me 15 years to realize that the problem was not me; I had a horrible childhood due to a uBPD parent and had no idea of what a normal marriage looked like.

Again, you are empowered now with the knowledge of BPD and how it manifests, and how to control your reactions to you H.    

My impression now is that my H is a frightened coward who was abused by his uNPD X W.  As an NPD, she saw his weakness, eventually leaving him for another man (with whom she cheated; her lover was also married), taking all of the children with her.  H was such a coward he did not even seek legal counsel for the divorce, and X W got everything she wanted in the divorce, even dictating visitation with the children; she loved manipulating him with the attention of the children.  He also feels powerless thanks to his uNPD F during his childhood.   Moreover, H is a pushover to his adult children who use him as a blank check.

That said, it's hard to be frightened when I see H as a raging, pouty toddler in a grown man's body.  I have the choice to stay with him and take pity on him for his state of mind, or leave when I choose to no longer tolerate the dysregulations.  It's empowering and eye opening for me to be in this place of comfort with myself in my marriage.  Every time H threatens divorce, I laugh inside. Then if he actually devalues me and has me served, I won't be too shattered with a divorce. I know I will survive and move on.  At least I know what to look for in a new relationship.

I have taken my sense of self back.  It's a great feeling.  You will also get there, WEW.      

This is a good site on abusive relationships.  (It does not discuss PDs.)

https://www.abuseandrelationships.org/index.html

This link might be helpful.

https://www.abuseandrelationships.org/Content/Behaviors/basic_coercion.html



 

[WitzEndWife]

Taking myself back is important. I know I'm hard on myself, but it is sad to think about wasted time and how I ignored those red flags because we'd already made plans. It all seems so dumb now. And my therapist had warned me then, to make SURE I wanted to go through with it. I didn't listen to her.

But what's past is past. I guess I can move forward with what I know now. I know some people go a lot longer without figuring out the truth.

Thank you all for being supportive here. It's helpful to hear others' experiences and to know they know what this feels like. I hope I'll have the strength some day soon to do what I need to do. 

[Lalathegreat]

 

Ok, first things first - you are not dumb. I can see that you have many positive traits, and a few of them don’t happen to be serving you well in dealing with BPD. I relate. I have always led with my heart, I’ve always cared tremendously about my people and in helping when and where I can. I’ve always believed in forgiveness and compassion and 2nd chances. I have such a hard time walking away from a person in pain, I want always to believe and have hope in healing and growth. Yeah yeah - you probably already see where I’m going with this. Having  these qualities is absolutely not “bad” or “dumb”, generally  I am very proud of these qualities. But I am spending a lot of time in therapy understanding when and how to put boundaries on these things so that I don’t fall into the patterns I did with my ex BPD in the future.

I am not trying to push you one direction or another - I know that you are still in this relationship. I do feel compelled to reassure you, as another 40-something woman, that there is healing and growth and peace on the other side should you end up here.

Lala

[Cat Familiar]

Hi WEW,
I wonder if you've had time in the last few weeks during all the holiday commotion to come up with a plan?

Cat

[WitzEndWife]

Hi Cat - T and I are working on it. She wants me to first open the lines of communication - which I am avoidant of. I have been successfully doing so in the past couple of weeks. The communication is 100 percent for me, so that I don't feel in any way like I'm leaving any door unopened before ending things.

The good news is I've been able to talk with H and express to him that I will not tolerate any scary behavior in my home. I also told him that I was afraid of him when he broke through the door. He told me he would never hurt me, he just wanted to break the door down. I told him that, in many cases, this is how physically abusive relationships start. He again told me that he'd never actually wanted to hurt me. I don't know if that's 100 percent true, but I do believe that there is a large amount of restraint there.

I told him he needed to get control of his anger, that there was no excuse for it and that it wasn't normal. He agreed and said he was going to work on it. I did not ask him about therapy this time around, but he has been seeming more open to it for our relationship, so I told him to find a therapist. I'm hoping that, even if I have to go with him at first, maybe I can skootch him into 1:1 consoling. He seems to really benefit once he's in there, it's just getting him there.

Of course, now he's on an emotional upswing. He's buying a car and working as a livery driver. He enjoys driving and the flexibility it gives him, and it gets him out of the house, so that's good. Now that he's got some bills in his name, he has no choice but to work to pay things down. He has a lot of anxiety around that, but he also feels better about himself that he's working and taking responsibility like an adult, instead of moping around the house with no income.

I'm happy for the relief of the upswing. It helps me with my self care and figuring out my next move, so that I can think things through without being under duress. Next appt with my T is tomorrow.

[formflier]

How is he affording the car?

FF

[WitzEndWife]

How is he affording the car?

FF

He's financing it. He has good credit, since he's only been in the country a short time and has paid his card on time.

[Cat Familiar]

With your therapist's encouragement, it sounds like you're having those tough conversations and being able to express your needs. 

Perhaps the work driving will be a better fit for him than real estate. I hope that the car purchase (and insurance) is solely his responsibility. Having to work to pay his bills is a great step for him being more accountable and is also likely to boost his self esteem.

[WitzEndWife]

Hi Cat,

That was definitely what I was thinking when he made mention of it. Having something in his own name would certainly incentivize him to work, get out of the house, and be more productive. I also think he feels much better about himself with a nice, new (to him) car, and several avenues for money making with it (he's also an automotive YouTuber who has had success with generating views in the past, leading to ad money). Plus, he's not using my car, so he's no longer dependent on me.

Hopefully that can help keep him motivated to continue long term. I'd definitely feel better about everything (whether or not I decide to stay) if he had steady work.

[Cat Familiar]

I'd definitely feel better about everything (whether or not I decide to stay) if he had steady work.

Definitely. You care about him and wouldn't want to pull the rug out from under him, should you decide to leave. You're encouraging him to individuate from you and be able to successfully support himself.

[Only Human]

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