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VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?" Parental alienation is when a parent allows a child to participate or hear them degrade the other parent. This is not uncommon in divorces and the children often adjust. In severe cases, however, it can be devastating to the child. This video provides a helpful overview.
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Author Topic: PART 3: Holidays, vacation, surgery, BPD charades  (Read 833 times)
snowglobe
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« on: January 13, 2019, 02:19:40 PM »

Mod note: The OP is a continuation of the following thread:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=333013.0

Chronicles continued;
After I sat what seemed to be an eternity on the bench, I went and did some light clothing shopping. My d15 is the same size in most of the clothes, so my closet seems to be disappearing at the speed of light. Shortly there after my dad called and asked to pick up some groceries for dinner. Around the same time my friend called, inquiring about my well being, the same one whose h is also BPD. As I went down the rabbit hole explaining her my inner struggles, I Mechanically loaded my purchases into the trunk of the car, and proceeded back inside of the mall for groceries. All the while talking to my friend. Half way into my grocery shopping, it dawned on me, that the bags with clothes were missing. I had no recollection of walking to my car and leaving the purchase there. I ran to the security, as they were investigating and pulling the surveillance system, I decided to walk to the mall security gate. As I was walking, it suddenly came to me that I, in fact left the begs in my car... .scary moment. I immediately email the therapist, she called me back, listened to me explaining her what has preceded this incident. In her opinion I suffered from severe disassociation, brought by the abandonment stress trigger, and he fact that I was on my phone ranting, my memory simply overloaded by those two things and I didn’t immediately register the sequence of the events. I’m not fully convinced, truthfully this is a very frightening experience for me. Did any of you suffer temporary memory loss under the stress?
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« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2019, 03:16:28 PM »

That's scary, but yes, I have done this. If someone yells at me I feel "out of it" for a while and I have forgotten things. I have also found myself doing caretaking things on automatic.  Dissociation is a coping mechanism- and turning your focus more on to your feelings and the here and now, rather than fears helps with this.

I'm glad you have been in contact with your friend and your T. It's good to have their support.
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« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2019, 04:01:57 PM »

Hey DK, I’ve missed a lot in the last day or so, such excellent advice from Notwendy, she seems to have connected with you and it’s a joy to read. Maybe you’re not ready for this yet and maybe I’m wrong here but I’ve learnt A LOT doing this... .against advice to do something nice to take your mind off the pain of the moment... .TURN AND FACE it with every ounce of strength you have, sit in the complete agony and allow it to pass, doing nothing but observe the pain. Feel how your body feels, heart rate, blurred eyes, tingly fingers and legs, sick feeling, headaches, cold sweats, muted hearing, numb feeling... .chew through all those emotions and work your way through it resisting doing anything to stop it.

I guess my theory is that ‘doing something else’ means you have to do something else every time you’re in a bad situation... .like go clothes shopping... .doing nothing and enduring the agony means you learn to work through situations, you give your absolute attention to the moment and rationalise your way through it. Your emotional reaction is like a rubber band, at the moment you’re all floppy. Your emotions stretch and take you to extreme places. Exercising your emotions makes them way less stretchy, you’ll be tighter and harder to push around... .and you will feel less pain in the process. YOU will choose what your emotions react to... .not the sh!t going on around you.

What did your body tell you just before, during and after you yelled at your daughter? Can you remember.? Reflect if it happens again. Your body reacts way quicker than your head... .it warns you.

Doing great DK

Enabler xx
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snowglobe
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« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2019, 08:21:16 PM »

Enabler, Notwendy,
Thank you so much! I made it through today, sober. After my meltdown at the store I came home, made dinner and asked my good friend to come for dinner. We’ve talked about personal development, life goals, values, children growing up, I relaxed and allowed myself to be “me”, without putting any constraints or trying to fit into some else’s mold. I enjoyed this feeling. We had tea, and I allowed myself to feel the pain, the worry, without doing anything about it. I rode the wave. I am calm. I did not text/call uBPDh. After some time and distance between us, I realize that I have nothing to say to him. I might as well call my own mailbox, as there is no reciprocal agreement. He isn’t interested in me, what is the purpose for me to continue. I’m taking a break from him and all the drama that comes with being in these relationships. I am great full for today, as it has shown me just how strong I can be, even when it isn’t my choice. Thank you for being here, when I feel like I’m loosing my marbles
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« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2019, 09:10:14 PM »

Enabler, Notwendy,
Thank you so much! I made it through today, sober. After my meltdown at the store I came home, made dinner and asked my good friend to come for dinner. We’ve talked about personal development, life goals, values, children growing up, I relaxed and allowed myself to be “me”, without putting any constraints or trying to fit into some else’s mold. I enjoyed this feeling. We had tea, and I allowed myself to feel the pain, the worry, without doing anything about it. I rode the wave. I am calm. I did not text/call uBPDh. After some time and distance between us, I realize that I have nothing to say to him. I might as well call my own mailbox, as there is no reciprocal agreement. He isn’t interested in me, what is the purpose for me to continue. I’m taking a break from him and all the drama that comes with being in these relationships. I am great full for today, as it has shown me just how strong I can be, even when it isn’t my choice. Thank you for being here, when I feel like I’m loosing my marbles

This sounds so good, D... .whatever worked to bring you to this place, keep doing it!
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« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2019, 12:00:58 AM »

I agree with Gagrl. I'm so glad you were able to hang out with your friend and be yourself, Snowglobe!    
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« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2019, 01:08:28 AM »

DK, sorry to put a spanner in the works and be picky, I would guess he is interested in you else he wouldn’t be so horrible to you. As Notwendy suggested, try and avoid going from one extreme to another and get yourself to a middle ground. Deciding he’s not worth it, he doesn’t like you and you need to check out might be emotionally more comfortable but in the long run you’ll just be denying emotions that you have. It’s a cheats method of dealing with a situation that just delays dealing with things.

It’s great that you endured the wave and showed yourself you could come out the other side without feeling the need to reach for any of the usual passifyers, keep this up. Rinse repeat. True clarity of yourself and your situation will come through enduring these moments.

Enabler
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« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2019, 06:00:58 AM »

I think you did well and gained some confidence that you can get through a day with these tough feelings.

Giving up the usual way to manage feelings and learning a different- more emotionally healthy way- is like learning a new skill. You've been doing what you usually do for decades- maybe even before you met your H ( like I did with my BPDmom) and you carried that into your marriage. Learning any new skill takes time and practice. You went the whole day without doing the caretaking, or using alcohol to diminish tough feelings. That's great!

I think Enabler brings up some good points about feeling one's feelings and not interpreting things in one extreme or the other.  Another slogan is "progress, not perfection". When a baby learns to walk - the baby toddles and sometimes tumbles but gets up again and eventually walks well.  Learning new emotional "tools" can be like that too- but each time you practice, you get better at it. You will get more confidence that you can manage your feelings.

I've also found myself wandering the mall when I am upset. I think we need to take shopping in context of what we are doing it for and I think one reason is to change scenery.  When I first began working on co-dependency, I didn't have much of a sense of who I was. My activities revolved around the family. I think it's a good to take action to change your patterns, and sitting around the house was my pattern- but where would I go? I didn't know about many options, especially in cold or bad weather, so walking around the mall got me out, moving, and was a change of scenery.  Lately though, I don't do this as much as I have expanded my own interests a bit. Going to the bookstore and buying myself a book was a next step- not shopping for my family but looking for something I wanted to read. For some people, shopping is a problem, like alcohol, but if it isn't for you, and you stay in the budget, wandering the mall is a good first step towards changing your routine and your patterns. So is calling a friend and reaching out to people.

When changing old patterns, you need to try new ones too. Then, your own set of emotionally healthy tools will expand.
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« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2019, 06:55:19 AM »

DK, sorry to put a spanner in the works and be picky, I would guess he is interested in you else he wouldn’t be so horrible to you. As Notwendy suggested, try and avoid going from one extreme to another and get yourself to a middle ground. Deciding he’s not worth it, he doesn’t like you and you need to check out might be emotionally more comfortable but in the long run you’ll just be denying emotions that you have. It’s a cheats method of dealing with a situation that just delays dealing with things.

It’s great that you endured the wave and showed yourself you could come out the other side without feeling the need to reach for any of the usual passifyers, keep this up. Rinse repeat. True clarity of yourself and your situation will come through enduring these moments.

Enabler
Dear Enabler,
I understand the message you are conveying, and here are my thoughts on it. I can’t deny that I do love, long for my uBPDh and want him to come around. WhAt I don’t want is for him to continue abusing me emotionally. I didn’t call or text because I didn’t want him to tell me to F off, or ask me why was I calling, or what business of mine is it? I can’t take any more rejection. He came back late in the evening. He sat on the couch for a moment and left to the bedroom that we once shared. I went to sleep in s11’s bedroom. It’s a puny bed, I don’t have any of my belongings there, maybe I should move my stuff there too, I’m not ready yet. They call BPD emotional burn victims, well, I do relate to this feeling.
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« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2019, 07:51:15 AM »

Morning DK,

To clarify, I am not suggesting that you stand there taking any abuse. I am advocating sitting still on your own and feeling the emotional fallout in yourself, understanding your emotional reaction and working through it. Similarly I'm advocating sitting and thinking when you feel the desire and working through the emotions when you feel the burning desire to contact him... .your rational train of thought hits the nail on the head... .:

Why am I texting him? Because I am worried what he is doing that might hurt me.
Will texting him stop him doing that? No, it will likely result in him responding with F off and rejecting me.
Do I want that? No
Why don't I want that? Because I am better than that, I have respect for myself.

... .

Why am I texting him? Because I need to find out if he need dinner
Will texting him answer that question? Maybe, maybe he tells me to F off.
Do I want that? Asking is the right thing to do, what he chooses to do is up to him. If he tells me to F off, then I will assume he doesn't want dinner and not prepare him any.


You are doing very well and as Notwendy says, baby steps. Maybe I am pushing you too fast too soon and I'm sorry for that. The actions you have taken thus far have been great and manageable. Facing into the bomb blast is tough... .but you're turning.

Question for you... .

If your husband wants space to be on his own, who out of the 2 of you owns the responsibility to take action about that need, him or you?

Hint... .you're too wonderful to be sleeping on tiny uncomfortable kids mattress.

Enabler
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« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2019, 07:52:55 AM »

Right now both of you are hurting. Another acronym ( there seems to be a lot of them, but I think it's to help remember ) HALT-hungry, angry, lonely, tired.  These all create chemicals in the brain that dull higher thinking. When you are in fight or flight mode- there isn't time to think clearly, so people react.  One term for this is thinking with your lizard brain. We share this lizard brain with every creature. It's our higher brain that makes us human, but in HALT we are using our lizard brain more.

When your H tells you to  Cursing - won't cause site restrictions at Starbucks (click to insert in post) or that he's done with you - he's in victim mode. He is thinking and speaking with his lizard brain. When his words hurt you, you feel in victim mode too. Neither of you are able to override this. You don't want to reach out to him- to get hurt again and he's lashing out at you.

Sleeping in another room is not necessarily the end of your marriage. I've done this many times, sometimes because my H's snoring is waking me up, sometimes it is because I may not be feeling my best and don't want to wake him up. Sometimes it is so we both can cool off. I have a hard time sleeping if one of us is angry. It's OK- maybe the two of you need some "time out" to cool off. Don't make more meaning out of this- maybe it's permanent, maybe it isn't.

How does your H go into victim mode? Personally, I think pwBPD take victim perspective a lot. Recall the "Teddy". "Teddy" is magical- can read minds, always knows what he wants, and takes care of what he wants, and makes him feel better. You are human- you can not read minds and make him feel better. "Teddy" is not supposed to feel or think differently. When you speak your own mind - you aren't being "Teddy". In his mind, "Teddy" has turned on him and hurt him on purpose. Then he lashes out.

You've been Teddy for a long time, but now you want to be you. Since you can't read minds, you will inevitably disappoint him. You are emotionally raw right now. When we are in HALT- we don't have much to offer another person. Self care is needed to get grounded again. When you feel better- you can make a gesture to him if you want- as you, not Teddy. He may also try to entice you back into Teddy role. He knows making threats works to do that. But your job is to stay as YOU not Teddy and resist the pattern. It can be a rocky road. If you do the same thing you always did, you will get the same pattern. The new one is not known yet. That's scary, but it is the path to something different.

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snowglobe
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« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2019, 09:09:03 AM »

Morning DK,

To clarify, I am not suggesting that you stand there taking any abuse. I am advocating sitting still on your own and feeling the emotional fallout in yourself, understanding your emotional reaction and working through it. Similarly I'm advocating sitting and thinking when you feel the desire and working through the emotions when you feel the burning desire to contact him... .your rational train of thought hits the nail on the head... .:

Why am I texting him? Because I am worried what he is doing that might hurt me.
Will texting him stop him doing that? No, it will likely result in him responding with F off and rejecting me.
Do I want that? No
Why don't I want that? Because I am better than that, I have respect for myself.

... .

Why am I texting him? Because I need to find out if he need dinner
Will texting him answer that question? Maybe, maybe he tells me to F off.
Do I want that? Asking is the right thing to do, what he chooses to do is up to him. If he tells me to F off, then I will assume he doesn't want dinner and not prepare him any.


You are doing very well and as Notwendy says, baby steps. Maybe I am pushing you too fast too soon and I'm sorry for that. The actions you have taken thus far have been great and manageable. Facing into the bomb blast is tough... .but you're turning.

Question for you... .

If your husband wants space to be on his own, who out of the 2 of you owns the responsibility to take action about that need, him or you?

Hint... .you're too wonderful to be sleeping on tiny uncomfortable kids mattress.

Enabler

Dear Enabler,
Yesterday was a very difficult day, as you noticed. Sitting with this burning addiction to be in his good graces, the withdrawals, the array of thoughts, questions, doubts, fears have been overwhelming. The primary fear, that I have been observing, is the fear of him actually filling for divorce. This thought was coming, as if someone was whispering in my ear “he will go through with the threats, you just watch”. Since I wasn’t doing what I normally do- caretaker to have him “change his mind, and stay with me”, the only plausible alternative that he has been threatening, is to actually leave. The same thought kept me shaking with anxiety as I was drifting off to sleep. When I woke up this morning, I had this feeling of “inevitable gloom and doom, as if he already filed”, so when I came downstairs, I was very quiet and reserved. He formally greeted me, asked logistical questions and offered to share the breakfast he was preparing for himself. On a cognitive level I understand that he is trying to engage. On emotional level, I’m all meat and open wounds, I’m too afraid that this “buttering me up” is a next level to trying to separate amicably. So I don’t want to engage. Every time he is opening his mouth, I anticipate “I don’t love you anymore, we are different people, I want divorce, I’m not sexually attracted to you, you are no use to me”, not necessarily in that order. This is his repertoire, this is what I grew accustomed to. I don’t want to hear that anymore. I need time to heal, and it isn’t happening with him constantly projecting his failures onto me.
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snowglobe
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« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2019, 09:13:07 AM »

Right now both of you are hurting. Another acronym ( there seems to be a lot of them, but I think it's to help remember ) HALT-hungry, angry, lonely, tired.  These all create chemicals in the brain that dull higher thinking. When you are in fight or flight mode- there isn't time to think clearly, so people react.  One term for this is thinking with your lizard brain. We share this lizard brain with every creature. It's our higher brain that makes us human, but in HALT we are using our lizard brain more.

When your H tells you to  Cursing - won't cause site restrictions at Starbucks (click to insert in post) or that he's done with you - he's in victim mode. He is thinking and speaking with his lizard brain. When his words hurt you, you feel in victim mode too. Neither of you are able to override this. You don't want to reach out to him- to get hurt again and he's lashing out at you.

Sleeping in another room is not necessarily the end of your marriage. I've done this many times, sometimes because my H's snoring is waking me up, sometimes it is because I may not be feeling my best and don't want to wake him up. Sometimes it is so we both can cool off. I have a hard time sleeping if one of us is angry. It's OK- maybe the two of you need some "time out" to cool off. Don't make more meaning out of this- maybe it's permanent, maybe it isn't.

How does your H go into victim mode? Personally, I think pwBPD take victim perspective a lot. Recall the "Teddy". "Teddy" is magical- can read minds, always knows what he wants, and takes care of what he wants, and makes him feel better. You are human- you can not read minds and make him feel better. "Teddy" is not supposed to feel or think differently. When you speak your own mind - you aren't being "Teddy". In his mind, "Teddy" has turned on him and hurt him on purpose. Then he lashes out.

You've been Teddy for a long time, but now you want to be you. Since you can't read minds, you will inevitably disappoint him. You are emotionally raw right now. When we are in HALT- we don't have much to offer another person. Self care is needed to get grounded again. When you feel better- you can make a gesture to him if you want- as you, not Teddy. He may also try to entice you back into Teddy role. He knows making threats works to do that. But your job is to stay as YOU not Teddy and resist the pattern. It can be a rocky road. If you do the same thing you always did, you will get the same pattern. The new one is not known yet. That's scary, but it is the path to something different.


Wendy, you are correct about both of us hurting, I can see that, as well him trying to bully me into a Teddy role. I just can’t be pushed anymore, months of emotional instability propelled me into feeling out of control. As you pointed out, I need to find my core again. I am certain of my personal values, which I uphold above all.
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« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2019, 10:00:30 AM »

When I woke up this morning, I had this feeling of “inevitable gloom and doom, as if he already filed”, so when I came downstairs, I was very quiet and reserved. He formally greeted me, asked logistical questions and offered to share the breakfast he was preparing for himself.

What does that tell you about the way he reacts when he can see that you don't chase him? I wonder if he is thinking the same thing as you "I have pushed her too far and she is going to file for divorce". In a perverse way you could see that by you erecting a garden fence (boundary), leaving him to deal with his own emotions and getting on with 'your stuff' he noticed you. If he thinks you might divorce him... .well... .you might... .it's not like you haven't seriously considered it in the last 6m.

You spent yesterday thinking that he might be planning to divorce you, you were terrified to start with... .totally understandable, my wife's D threats (she did actually file for divorce but each glacially slow stage is a threat in itself as she pushes us slowly towards the final end) are like a dagger through my heart and send a wave of anxiety through me... .BUT... .they go, they don't last forever, and then I think about all the positives that might come out of the situation. The periods of anxiety get shorter and shorter, in the past it was a month, then a week, then a day, then a couple of hours... .now it's probably down to 30 minutes. Lets assume that Divorce is THE WORST thing he can do to you, what does it look like for you? Are you alive? What will you do? What kind of house will YOU decide to buy? Which friends you haven't seen for ages will you decide to visit? Picture what THE WORST case is, imagine yourself there... .no horrible text messages, no fear, no walking on eggshells, no drama.

By making the worst case scenario palatable... .you disarm his control over your emotions.

Enabler
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« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2019, 10:15:41 AM »

What does that tell you about the way he reacts when he can see that you don't chase him? I wonder if he is thinking the same thing as you "I have pushed her too far and she is going to file for divorce". In a perverse way you could see that by you erecting a garden fence (boundary), leaving him to deal with his own emotions and getting on with 'your stuff' he noticed you. If he thinks you might divorce him... .well... .you might... .it's not like you haven't seriously considered it in the last 6m.

You spent yesterday thinking that he might be planning to divorce you, you were terrified to start with... .totally understandable, my wife's D threats (she did actually file for divorce but each glacially slow stage is a threat in itself as she pushes us slowly towards the final end) are like a dagger through my heart and send a wave of anxiety through me... .BUT... .they go, they don't last forever, and then I think about all the positives that might come out of the situation. The periods of anxiety get shorter and shorter, in the past it was a month, then a week, then a day, then a couple of hours... .now it's probably down to 30 minutes. Lets assume that Divorce is THE WORST thing he can do to you, what does it look like for you? Are you alive? What will you do? What kind of house will YOU decide to buy? Which friends you haven't seen for ages will you decide to visit? Picture what THE WORST case is, imagine yourself there... .no horrible text messages, no fear, no walking on eggshells, no drama.

By making the worst case scenario palatable... .you disarm his control over your emotions.

Enabler
Dear Enabler,
I’m between bargaining and grieving, which I find devastating, I have never seriously considered to do voter him, it was my counter reaction to his threats. Nowhere in a normal state did I say to myself: “ I don’t want to be with him anymore”. Having the said that, the most fundamental part of our marriage is fractured if not broken- the trust. The trust that he will do right by me, the trust that he will be with me, these threats, they inevitably make me prepare for the worst. I have not met with a lawyer, nor will I until he will serve me with papers. There is so much pain, it debilitates me, I feel catatonic.
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« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2019, 10:33:02 AM »

I'm not suggesting you proactively pursue a divorce, that's not what this is about. It's about visualising what it looks like and removing the fear from it. A threat, or a perceived outcome is only as scary as our perceptions of that outcome... .the outcome is rarely as scary as the experience. Think of it like a bungee jump... .I don't know if you have ever done one, I have done 3... .at the top, it's terrifying, you're gonna die... .when you jump, it's mind-blowingly exhilarating, when you bounce, it's reassuring, when you pop up it's actually enjoyable... .when I was standing at the top there was absolutely NO WAY I would have thought that the experience would be as enjoyable as I perceived.

You don't have to want a divorce to visiualise what it looks like if it did happen. Actually there's a lot to be said for any couple having a good idea what life looks like not in the relationship, you're together because you choose to be together, not because you have to or because you aren't prepared for the outcomes of not being in the relationship. You can choose to walk along side your H not because you fear the alternatives. That's 24 carat empowerment.

Enabler
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« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2019, 12:00:15 PM »

I can't possibly know what your H wants when he makes these threats, but I can see that he likes what he gets when he makes them- which is one big motivator for doing it. Your reaction- upping the caretaking and taking care of his needs- is a positive reinforcer. I know you don't like them, but to stop them from working for him- you have to stop your caretaking behavior.

One of the reasons these threats work is that they trigger your fears. One way to disarm them is to manage your fear. Nobody is suggesting divorce- it's clear you don't want one and it isn't clear if your H wants one or not, but he does want the results from making the threats.

If you are studying psychology, you know that to stop a behavior, one has to stop positive reinforcement of that behavior. Pavlov's dog would not keep pressing the button if he didn't get a treat. Note that intermittent reinforcement is most powerful which means you can not intermittently caretake if you want this to stop.

If your H is doing a behavior you like, then reinforce that. I know humans are not dogs but all living creatures respond to reinforcement of a behavior by increasing that behavior.

A divorce is hard to go through for anyone. It is scary. But think of this- you didn't think you could deal with a night away from your bed with your H, or your H going to his business without you. You made it. He returned. He may be puzzled at your change in behavior. Do not be surprised if he does the same things he always does- threats, scares you. He doesn't have new relationship tools yet. If all he's had is an effective "hammer" that has worked for him for 20 years, he's going to take out that "hammer". ( what does a child do when you say no to a cookie before dinner- he screams louder for the cookie )He needs to learn that is doesn't work. For that, stay strong. He's only doing what he knows how to do. Once he realizes it doesn't work, then he may be able to learn something new- perhaps a better way to get love and affection.

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« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2019, 12:44:36 PM »


Hey... .a bit of random advice.

First... I applaud you for the new path you are attempting to walk.  Deal with those fears... .let your hubby do what he will do.  You take care of you.

Part of taking care of you is slowing down and being deliberate about doing one thing at a time, which forces you to prioritize.

I've done similar things where I did too much at once and then lost track of time and forgot where I put things. It can be scary...

Perhaps it's best to stop and enjoy a conversation with your friend.  Shop later.  Or... finish shopping and call her back.

Basically... .anything you can do to reduce chaos... will improve your life. 

Again... .big picture... .keep walking your new path!

FF
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« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2019, 01:27:54 PM »

Guys; Enabler, Formflier, NotWendy, Cat Familiar, Gagrl,
Thank you for helping me get through past few days, it’s been rough. I’m still feeling the hollow pain and emptiness inside, as if I have been uprooted. Strangely, I feel out of balance, like I’m drifting I. The open sea without an anchor. This limbo status is both draining for me and frustrating. UBPDh has been texting me during the day, odd, but not unusual. First about the finances, then about pricing for airfare tickets ?. What?. Why? Am I going insane?. After “I will never go anywhere with you” he is now sharing the prices (extremely cheap) on airfares. Asked me to pick up some food, and asked to pick him up from work (we now have only one shared vehicle).
Every time he messages me, I am feeling the anxiety and anger building up. When I ask myself, I can’t explain or justify my emotions. As if the gates that I have been keeping shut, suddenly opened, and the flood of painful emotions are clouding my judgement and overwhelm me entirely.
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« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2019, 02:15:16 PM »

posted on the other thread as it was being split so here it is:

Another helpful technique is to take the word "you" out of your conversations with your H ( as much as possible while still making sense). This keeps you focused on your side of the fence with him and focused on your feelings.

You are in major HALT ( can include several emotions) right now. Not able to process fully due to being emotionally flooded. That is OK. Where you are is where you are. HALT works because it means HALT do not proceed.

Do not make major decisions when you are in HALT. This means schedule non essential travel, divorce, moving, selling the house, anything that requires clear thinking.

Don't make your H the reason for not deciding. This is about you being too emotionally flooded to make a decision.

He brings up travel. Rather than " I am not going anywhere with you" try " Honey, I just got back from a long trip and I am not up to another one".

Plane tickets are cheap. " I am not up to travelling right now". This carries no blame, no drama, it's a fact- you are too overwhelmed to plan a trip right now.

This response can help with all kinds of things. If he brings up something emotional or dramatic "honey, I am not up to this kind of discussion right now ,I need some time to process".

If he presses you for a decision. " I need to think about this".

If the threatens divorce " Honey that would make me sad, and I am not able to discuss this right now". Then don't discuss it.

If he pushes for sex- yes if you are up to it, if not  " honey I need some time to myself right now".

There is no "you" in any of these sentences. Taking out "you" doesn't fuel the drama as much.

Your H may be feeling the difference and running through his own tool box of things that worked to get your attention. You are both probably emotionally flooded. Stay focused on the moment- breathe - focus on now- even if you are just feeling your hands on the wheel, the seat beneath you. Nothing has to be decided right now.
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« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2019, 07:17:19 AM »

posted on the other thread as it was being split so here it is:

Another helpful technique is to take the word "you" out of your conversations with your H ( as much as possible while still making sense). This keeps you focused on your side of the fence with him and focused on your feelings.

You are in major HALT ( can include several emotions) right now. Not able to process fully due to being emotionally flooded. That is OK. Where you are is where you are. HALT works because it means HALT do not proceed.

Do not make major decisions when you are in HALT. This means schedule non essential travel, divorce, moving, selling the house, anything that requires clear thinking.

Don't make your H the reason for not deciding. This is about you being too emotionally flooded to make a decision.

He brings up travel. Rather than " I am not going anywhere with you" try " Honey, I just got back from a long trip and I am not up to another one".

Plane tickets are cheap. " I am not up to travelling right now". This carries no blame, no drama, it's a fact- you are too overwhelmed to plan a trip right now.

This response can help with all kinds of things. If he brings up something emotional or dramatic "honey, I am not up to this kind of discussion right now ,I need some time to process".

If he presses you for a decision. " I need to think about this".

If the threatens divorce " Honey that would make me sad, and I am not able to discuss this right now". Then don't discuss it.

If he pushes for sex- yes if you are up to it, if not  " honey I need some time to myself right now".

There is no "you" in any of these sentences. Taking out "you" doesn't fuel the drama as much.

Your H may be feeling the difference and running through his own tool box of things that worked to get your attention. You are both probably emotionally flooded. Stay focused on the moment- breathe - focus on now- even if you are just feeling your hands on the wheel, the seat beneath you. Nothing has to be decided right now.
NotWendy,
I’m keeping communication to a short, concise and friendly manner. There arent any discussions coming from me at this time, I’m too emotionally disturbed. He was making attempts to get me to partake in a conversation regarding healthy lifestyle and fitness. Thank goodness, as he had let himself go in the past several years due to the demands of his job. He is full on into the transformation mode. I’m happy for him. After he came from his work out he announced that he might be leaving to another country/countries for work?. First time I’m hearing about this opportunity in his field. I’m certain that it will fail, the countries that he is looking at, to make financial sense are either corrupt, or require him to be on site for the business to run smoothly. Again, it brings the point of consulting with each other when we want to do things (I hold my end of this agreement)  and traveling together, even if for work (also upheld by me). Which brings me to my next point. We either have a completely different set of values (family important for me, but not for him), or he is a darn hypocrite (he doesn’t want me leaving, traveling alone or not sharing with him, as it’s not “good for the family”). It triggered the abandonment issues in me again, i stirred in this anguish until I went to bed. Now that I come to think of it. It might, or might not happen, but the purpose of him doing that, is exactly to bring on my worst fear “we are growing apart”.
He has been waking up consistently at 7 am, unheard of for 18 years that I’ve known him. When I come down, he is making breakfast for, hold on for it, both of us?. I feel surreal. He hates me, wants to divorce me, yet he is making me breakfast?.
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« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2019, 08:33:08 AM »

  He hates me, wants to divorce me, yet he is making me breakfast?.

 Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) on your thinking.

He "says" he hates, wants etc etc.

What is he doing?

May also want to examine this from the point of view where you realize his feelings change very very rapidly.

FF
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« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2019, 10:33:49 AM »

One thing to think about the “not traveling alone for you as it’s bad for the family “ . My H travelled on his own for business. I stayed at home with the kids. If I wanted to go somewhere on my own he had plenty of logical reasons for why I should not do it but that wasn’t the real reason. The real reason is his unfounded fear that I would meet someone else and leave him. I have not ever cheated. He knows that telling me the real reason is unfounded but the fear is real and the reasons are smokescreen.

If I was always with the kids the likelihood that I’d be romancing some man is diminished. He didn’t fear leaving me with them.

Families can differ in their values. I understand the wish to travel together but that leaves the kids without a parent. To me it’s fine if there is a reliable caretaker on occasion but I didn’t want to leave them for a long time or frequently.

Sometimes it’s a choice between two values - traveling together or being with the kids. Whatever your H decides is up to him. Your part is to make your best choice.
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« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2019, 11:11:16 AM »

Actions speak louder than words. His actions tell you he doesn’t want a divorce and likely that was his dysregilated personality talking... .and he’s going to have to maintain that personality for longer than a few hours after a bad day at work if he’s going to achieve a divorce.

I don’t know about the business opportunity abroad, I don’t know the facts. If he said it when dusregilated it could well be complete nonsense, maybe even a threat to get you to behave as he wants you to. By the sounds of things you externally stayed kinda okay, got your sh!t together and slept on it. See if the subject is raised again and also whether it is raised when he is calm... .my W threatens a lot of stuff on a range of different topics such as pushing the divorce forwards, selling a large car and buying a small one, buying things,, doing stuff... .things she knows would hurt me... .why? Because she wants me to feel rubbish and get me to react, I don’t know, I think it’s her way of transferring her pain on to me. Typically it works in a karpman kind of way... .she says something outrageous and provocative, I react and attempt to correct the narrative (likely involving me telling her she is wrong, out of order on downright crackers), she then immediately flips, becomes passive and acts as though she is mortally wounded. Now I just say “okay, it’s up to you”. Things rarely get mentioned again. It maybe an idea, a thing that she believes will improve her happiness, it could be a ploy to get into victim mode, maybe because she knows she is going to do something immoral and wants some justification for it... .I don’t know, but I don’t play the game anymore.

If it’s mentioned multiple times, it’s generally serious, if there’s consistent action, she’s serious.

Enabler
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« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2019, 08:59:56 AM »

Because she wants me to feel rubbish and get me to react,

Maybe, but it helps to keep in mind that she feels like rubbish and these bad feelings need an out. Your reaction gives them a place to go.

I don't think this "drama bait" is always deliberate. It's a well practiced pattern that works- feel bad- interact with your partner, they react- bad feelings out. Our part in this is our own reactivity to fix the situation, correct the accusation, or the feeling. That's our issue. One thing about 12 steps is that it helped me to look at this as an addiction on my part and see my own temptation in a similar way as someone offering an alcoholic a drink. Each time I felt it, I'd think of someone offering me a drug. I don't want to do drugs ( and I don't) but once I saw this as my "drug" I could resist it.

I second the others in looking at your H's overall behavior, not what he says in the moment of dysregulation - unless it is consistent and he takes action. My H has said horrible things to me when he is angry. When he isn't angry, he doesn't say them and he doesn't mean them. Your H doesn't hate you. I'll bet you've heard your kids say mean things when they don't get their way. Mine have yelled and screamed when they were little- having tantrums, and in the moment might have said they hated me but they don't hate me. Fortunately little children grow up and learn to have a filter on their angry feelings. Your H doesn't sound like he has a filter. Be honest- haven't you been so angry in the moment at your H that you thought " I hate you". But you know you don't, you understand you are angry and this will pass. Your H just blurts out what he feels. In that temporary moment, he might be so angry he thinks he hates you. But if he's still there, making breakfast, he doesn't hate you. That was his lizard brain putting uncomfortable feelings into whatever word he thought of in the moment.

Don't react to his lizard brain talking and also work on recognizing when you are responding from your lizard brain, so you can calm down and think with a clear mind.
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« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2019, 01:12:44 PM »

Following on from Notwendys last point, this is when slowing everything down, and I mean everything, is very very very helpful. You body reacts quickest, you mouth acts second quickest, your lizard brain works third quickest and your human brain is super super super slow. Your lizard brain and instincts are super quick as they have tons and tons of short cuts (cognitive biases) and reactionary hard wired built in... .because it’s millions and millions of years old, it’s primevil. Your human brain is young in comparison and does the hard thinking. So, slowing yourself down means it gives your human. Brain a chance to catch up. You have to slow things down a heck of a lot.

So once you have slowed down, you can not only think about what you should say but also feel your physical reactions and gauge whether or not you have been triggered (emotionally aroused). If you have been emotionally aroused, you can compensate for this by eithe counteracting your emotional reaction with a rational response, or buy time till a time when you can be more grounded.

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