“T” says I’m codependent,

[Red5]

Went to my regularly scheduled “T” appointment today, shared the events of the previous week, and weekend.

And even though I thought I wouldn’t be, .Mr. “T” says to me, “sorry there Red5 old boy, but you my friend are indeed quite codependent”.

I do miss her, even after what she did, to my Son, .and I still profess to love her as well, .I even wore my wedding band and the orange /C/ bracelet today, .

She’s been gone for forty one days as of today, .I reckon I should have known I’d be this way, after spending the last eleven years in a relationship with her... .eight of them married.

I broke down and called her the other night, .she is so full of anger, it was like talking to someone I didn’t even know.

I did not JADE, or try to defend anything, she was quite remorseless... .assigning all the blame to me.

I just listened, I ended it with “I love you, and I always will”.

... .very very complicated... .

Mr. “T” told me that it took “guts” to call her, .

She told me in a text back in December that she loves me and misses me, but that she can no longer live in this house with me and my autistic Son(32).

I’ve got a long way to go... .I’ll be fifty three in March,

Thanks for listening,

Red5

[Mutt]

Hi Red5,

11 years is a long history together and  being gone for 41 days is relatively short. With how things are in their current state and hearing the words codependent I can see how it would be difficult to hear those words. It could set someone back a little bit - did your T give you advice and what to do? How do you feel about hearing that you're cd (co-dependent)

[Red5]

Hi Red5,

11 years is a long history together and  being gone for 41 days is relatively short. With how things are in their current state and hearing the words codependent I can see how it would be difficult to hear those words. It could set someone back a little bit - did your T give you advice and what to do? How do you feel about hearing that you're cd (co-dependent)

Evening Mutt,

Being “codependent” is like being in the company of an old dear dysfunctional friend... .I was married before... .twenty one years, and the last eleven of those I was also quite severely codependent... .as she, my most beautiful but severely damaged child bride was the mother of our three children.

I held on to the bitter end... .

Obviously I brought “unclaimed baggage” into this current marriage.

My current wife was also previously married for twenty years... .

She also married at sixteen, to a soldier seven years older than her, .

So you can see the “pressure dynamics” at play here.

The Doc said, “you know what to do, as you have the experiences and the forsight knowledge on how to survive this.”... .

He is correct... .being told I was codependent was expected, .

Like putting on that old dusty pair of worn out, ill fitting combat boots, and being told to “saddle up”... .center that ruck squarely on your back, we are going on a long “hump” yet again.

I know exactly what to expect... .

There are no mysteries here, I understand these feelings quite all too well.

Like the “Brooks” character in the “Shawshank Redemption” film, I got out of one jail, only to be locked away into another... .

The only cure for this, the right cure, is “time”.

As this is my second marriage... .and it’s now failed, I have work to do on myself... .work I should have done back in 2006, after the first love of my life left.

But what do you know about life at eighteen?

Maybe about the same as you do when your forty one?

... .bad choices?

The Doc described it well today when he mimicked the hook being set in the fishes mouth... .

... .my current uBPDw was yet another damsel in distress... .which I am preprogrammed to “save” from boyhood... .

An honorable trait !

If you survive it... .

One day at a time, all ahead slow, “steady as she goes”.

Doc said to “keep reading”; but to let this one go, as she ain’t likely to ever seek therapy, and that is what it is, .he related several stories of BPD’s he’s worked with and mentored over the years... .it was a very interesting afternoon.

The stories are for the most part, all the same.

You cannot save whom wishes not to be saved.

Red5

[Hopefulgirl]

The first and only time I've ever been called codependent is by my ex. After I was ditched in the most cruel way when I finally got some long text message of explanation he said to me " my advice to you is to try not to be so co-dependent". I remember reading that and thinking of course, how dare you, it almost made me laugh the fact that he would say that to me. I resisted the urge to write back and say, well who in the hell do you think made me that way!

I didn't fully know what the word meant, then I started researching it. Which led me to the site talking about BPD ,ironically. I don't like the word. It just sounds so ... .Pitiful. But what it meant was  I was putting somebody else's needs before my own. To my detriment.
The fact that my ex ended up with somebody after me who's 10 times more co-dependent than I is almost laughable, is really interesting.

 I often thought, was I secretly a very codependent person and my ex just dragged it to the surface somehow? Or was I MADE codependent by him. Still haven't figured that one out.

[Red5]

Hopefulgirl wrote;... .But what it meant was I was putting somebody else's needs before my own. To my detriment.

I think I prefer the words, “bonded caretaker”.

... .ie’ we will try to stay with the pw/BPD, or else desire to stay beside them even though they are abusing us.

... .or in my case, even my autistic Son.

I first heard the term codependent back in 1995, even before the internet... .in a “pamphlet”... .in the base clinic on Cecil Field, I was there for a flight deck physical, my wife at the time was “stepping out”, we had been married about ten years... .and our three children were all under age eight.

I was sitting there waiting to be called back for the blood work, and I see this “media stand” full of these health pamphlets... .and I saw it, something about broken relationships, and depression... .so I squirled it away into my cammie pocket.

When I read it later on, I was like oh’ my gosh, this is speaking to me... .whoa... .“are you codependent” it said... .

Yeah, .that was my “label” for the next eleven years, until she finally “stepped out for keeps”.

I never thought I’d let another woman in that close ever again... .but I guess I did.

It’s not as severe this time though... .I see the way out this time round... .less attachments... .no kids, only time served.

I’m ruminating... .I feel guilty... .I’m supposed to be taking care of her you see... .she “used to need me”, she used to depend on me... .she told me she would be “lost without me”... .

She has cancer, she emeshed with me, she moved in, .we were “joint”... .

But now she’s gone, .because she went into a rage, and hit my kid, .

Dealbreaker,

Round and round I go in my thoughts... .codependent... .maybe so?

I know that only time will cure this, appease this, disapate this.

This person whom I’m emotionally connected to, in fact never even really existed.

Crazy stuff, this “human emotion”!

Red5

[Mindfried]

Red we are all broken and imperfect. Its called being human. Its also called life experince. Don't beat yourself up to much. Since we are in our 50's mortality starts to creep into our thoughts. Better days are ahead. Stay positive. Smile and have some pizza and ice cream today. Its friday and will make you feel better.

[Mutt]

I finally got some long text message of explanation he said to me " my advice to you is to try not to be so co-dependent".

I didn't fully know what the word meant, then I started researching it. Which led me to the site talking about BPD ,ironically. I don't like the word. It just sounds so ... .Pitiful.

I think I prefer the words, “bonded caretaker”.

There are positives with these traits you can find caretaker traits with first responders, nurses, doctors. The opposite of these traits would be narcissism can you imagine the world without caretakers and we have all narcissists? What would we accomplish as the human race? Where would it be detrimental in society? Perhaps it is utilizing these traits differently than what we're accustomed to, for example volunteering your time at an animal shelter, helping the homeless etc.

[Tsultan]

Hi Red5,

Try not to be "Judgey" with yourself.  Being a caring person is a good trait to have just not to the extreme.  

In my other recovery group I did a fourth step personal inventory in which you list all your character traits.  What I found was there is a good side to each character trait and a negative side to each character trait.  They got out of balance when I was in "survival" mode growing up in my Alcoholic family.  As an adult, I have to remember to think of myself.  More like a caregiver than a caretaker.  It's more my choice now.  I am not perfect at by any means but I'm a work in progress.  I am enough.

You too are enough just the way you are.  You are exactly where you are supposed to be.

Tsultan

    

[Cat Familiar]

I like the idea of finding balance with taking care of others, AKA caregiving.

It took me by surprise when I finally realized that my desire to be helpful could be interpreted as demeaning, as if I assumed my husband was incapable of doing something himself.

Good intentions are not always perceived that way.

Boundaries help us differentiate what is ours to do, what is someone else’s responsibility and how we can honor our desire to help, but not, in doing so, undermine someone’s self esteem or initiative.

Many times people need the space and support to work out their problems on their own. Or perhaps we need to let them have their problems until they are finished with them.

It’s a tricky subject. How do we remain true to our desire to help and how can we help them in ways that they actually want to be helped?

[I Am Redeemed]

I think being a caretaker in a loving, selfless way for someone who can actually benefit from it is a talent that not everyone has.

You have this talent, Red, and probably God gave it to you so your son would have the father and friend he needed.

The problem with co-dependent behavior is that on the surface it seems to be about loyalty and love for someone else in a self-sacrificing way. If it just stopped there, it would be a good trait. The unhealthy part is that the roots of it are actually tied to low self esteem and fear. It also has a certain element of false pride... .we believe that we are solely responsible for keeping this person from self destructing... .we believe that it's possible for us to actually accomplish that.

Addictions, personality disorders, even some other disorders such as major depression, bipolar, etc. sometimes seem to a born caretaker to be beyond the control of the person who has it, therefore we make the mistake of assuming that the person cannot help it and therefore needs us to direct them into a healthy lifestyle.

What I learned while in a recovery group for addiction is that even though it's not my fault that I have the disorder, and I can't always control the thoughts I have that are part of the disorder, I am most definitely responsible for my recovery. If I choose to not maintain my recovery, I am responsible for the consequences should I relapse.

Co-dependent behavior comes from feeling overly responsible for someone else and it satisfies, in an unhealthy and most likely imperceptible way, the need of the co-dependent person to feel needed.

It's nice to be needed, but usually the perception of needs to be met is largely skewed by both parties.

Redeemed

[Red5]

“Major Tom” my “T” txt me this morning early... .told me of a “codependency workshop”, .down on the island in their offices... .starting this Friday afternoon, both Saturday and Sunday (12 hours each day)... .and 8-12 on Monday... .

Reckon I should go?

Would have to balance wrk and S32(autistic)... .

I’m giving it serious consideration, “Major Tom” says I’d be the only “male” in the group... .

Thoughts... .

Red5

[Mutt]

I’d at least go and check out the workshop and if it doesn’t work for you then don’t go if you like it keep going.

[Red5]

I’d at least go and check out the workshop and if it doesn’t work for you then don’t go if you like it keep going.

I reckon I will Mutt, I’ve never attended anything like this before, have no idea what to expect... .

I’m sure it won’t be anything like attending a “command briefing” like back in the day at the puzzle palace on the hill... .

Any ideas Mutt, on what to expect ?

I’m extremely curious... .

Red5

[Mutt]

Sorry I’ve been to one the only group setting I’ve done is this one but I’m sure other members will chime in. Some members  go to alan on, coda ( codependents anonymous )

[Cat Familiar]

Notwendy has been doing a lot of this kind of work. She'd be a great resource.

[Notwendy]

When I finally convinced my H to ( reluctantly) attend MC, I expected her to call him out on his behavior. Instead, she told me I was codependent and advised me to attend 12 step group meetings. I was scared but ready to do anything she said as I had tried all I knew to do.

I think it helps to let go of how we use  "dependent" and think of it in psychology terms.  I thought about it after reading my kids' science lab reports: there's the dependent and independent variable. The independent variable changes and the dependent one changes accordingly- it doesn't choose its own change. I realized that- my reactivity to other people's moods, walking on eggshells, was like being the dependent variable. We lose sight of our own direction as we are so focused on adapting to our partner.

I had done therapy but nothing was quite like this, having a sponsor turn the mirror on my own behavior, make me look at myself like this. Caretaking was my "normal" growing up as an enabler to my BPD mother. It was learning a new skill for me.

It doesn't mean I don't do nice and caring things for people. It means I do this from a different mindset than a co-dependent one. One clue was to pay attention to my feelings and if I am feeling resentful, I am probably on the co-dependent side of that.

I'd say go, keep an open mind, find a sponsor you feel you trust ( someone who has done this a while). You will meet all kinds of people- seasoned people in recovery and those just starting out, some of the sanest people and some are not, but in time, I found it to be helpful. I then began to attend 12 step ACA groups to deal with some of the issues growing up with BPD mom. Some people attend more than one kind of group.

[Tsultan]

Red5 - When I attend workshops for Al-Anon there are a variety of activities that take place.  Usually, an ice breaker to start out with where you have the opportunity to make a few connections by participating in an activity on the lighter side, then maybe break off to separate smaller meetings where there might be a certain topic to discuss and share thoughts, then there might be speakers sharing their experience, strength and hope, and also workshops with activities that will teach new tools and help you to reflect on how the old tools are no longer helpful.  Lunch and free time with a chance to make connections.  I always take away something helpful. 

In my region we have several An-Anon Adult child meetings where the focus is on what it was like growing up in a home affected by alcoholism and sharing our experience strength and hope.  This is where I belong and for the first time in my life felt a connection.

If you want to check that out you can go to www.al-anon.alateen.org and look for a meeting that says Adult children in the description of the group name.  What some members discover is that it skips a generation or two so the behaviors are still there but the drinking is not.  That can be confusing at first because if your parents didn't drink but they act unhealthy it's hard to put a name to it.  It's more about the unhealthy behavior that can get passed onto generation to generation that does not get addressed until someone brave enough faces the dis "ease". 

I go to 2-3 meetings a week.  I needed to make my recovery a priority in life.  I have found it to be a life changer for me in so many positive ways. 

Al-anon for whatever reason does have mostly women that attend but there are a few men's meetings and there are some meetings where a handful of men attend.  Some men are comfortable with that others are not. 

But the issues in Al-anon fit co-dependency issues because what happens is we focus on the Alcoholic and then through the disease process forget to focus on ourselves so we lose ourselves by becoming co-dependent.  It is the same behavior that happens when we live with a pwBPD where we begin to lose ourselves because we are so focused on the behavior of the pwBPD.

The meetings and the workshops give us tools to use so we can learn to put the focus back on ourselves.  It's a really great thing. 

If you go let us know how you like it. 

Tsultan

[Red5]

If you go let us know how you like it.  

I will !

And thank you for the information Tsultan !

Hope all is well ; )

... .and thank you for your information too Notwendy via Cat !

Yes, ya'll know me, .I will come back here and "share" what I pick up, and learn 

Red5

[Notwendy]

I've found that each 12 step group- CODA, ACA, AA, etc takes similar issues on but has a slightly different culture to it. So do different groups in the same "title" but they have similar structures and formats. You might want to try a couple and see how they fit- one may have a better fit for you than another. Sometimes the personalities of the groups influence the group culture- some are more structured than others.

It can feel odd to walk in to a group of people you don't know, but everyone there has been in that place.

Having a sponsor for me was crucial. The one on one process was very helpful. Once you go to the groups a few times, you will see people who you think would be a good sponsor for you. In general- you need to be the one to ask them,  but someone may offer.

[Skip]

Have to read this article: https://bpdfamily.com/portfolio-broken (15th on the list, Codependency).  I would suggest it. It defines codependency. Most folks try to deduce what it means from the name, but it is more complicated than that.

I don't think "bonded caretaker" characterizes it well.

[Notwendy]

https://bpdfamily.com/content/codependency-codependent-relationships


This one? It's good!

[Red5]

Have to read this article: https://bpdfamily.com/portfolio-broken (15th on the list, Codependency).  

It defines codependency.

Most folks try to deduce what it means from the name, but it is more complicated than that.

I don't think "bonded caretaker" characterizes it well.

I've always defined codependence to myself as'

"I must do everything I can, to include ignoring my own morals, and beliefs, to ensure that she [sig/other] wont leave me."

"If she leaves me, I'll disappear, I'll be forever lost in grief, .I will become a hollow wreck".

"I will do whatever it takes to keep her in this relationship, even if its malignant and dysfunctional."

"I will put myself last, in everything, and even ignore my own needs, in order to ENSURE that she will stay, and "love" me."

"I will walk on broken glass, legos, rusty thumbtacks, old bent nails, I will gladly walk on endless miles of hot railroad tracks barefoot... .and endless carpets of eggshells, if that's what it will take to "keep her".

"I will give her anything and everything she wants, without regard to any facsimile of logic or reason... .and I mean ANYTHING!, .to try (in vain) to keep her happy, and interested (love?) in me."

"I will take any and all bad, and or abusive treatment from her, because I made a promise to stick by her, in sickness and in health, for better or for worse, till death do us part."

"If there is but a random, a fleeting, and or remote glimpse of "reward"... .every once in a while, I will gladly accept it, and be thankful."

["bonded caretaker"]
*Bonded is defined as "ensured", safe, reliable, trustworthy, has "references"... .a caretaker "keeps things in a suspended, preserved state", synonyms: janitor · warden · attendant · porter · custodian · keeper · watchman ·

Ever see the old movie, "Tomorrow (1972) "... .An isolated and lonely farmer in rural Mississippi takes in a pregnant drifter who has been abandoned by the father of her child."... .in the opening scene we see Duvall's character playing as a poor illiterate son of a farmer who goes to a sawmill to be the winter watchman, the "bonded caretaker", that's what he does, and he does it throughout the movie... .a great movie!

... .I got more, but my brain is now about to "smoke check"... .Id better get back to my day job now ; )

Thank you for the links Skip and Notwendy, and how am I doing?

Red5

[Notwendy]

Bonded caretakers get paid for their work. Many jobs involve caretaking skills, custodians, nurses, etc.
Co -dependency is different.

I agree, the word is hard to comprehend. You're a strong man, served your country.

For example, so was my father. Brilliant, highly educated, recognized for outstanding work, served his country as most men in his day did, provided for his family. Yet, his focus on mom could derail his plans, his goals, his wishes in an instant. He wasn't just a caring provider, he over focused on her needs to the point of giving up his own.

The article says the opposite of co-dependency is a well differentiated person. This would be a man who both loved his wife and family and may choose to care and provide for them, but he also remains who he is, has his own interests and isn't so overly focused on his partner's needs that he gives up the essence of his own values.

I didn't see my father as co-dependent until I had to look at myself. I thought he was the victim of a demanding wife. Now, I can see his part in this, not in a critical way but how I also see my part in the relationship dysfunction. I use him as an example, (rather than myself )because he embraced the qualities in a man that you do and so you can see the difference between bonded and co-dependent.  He was strong, reliable, brave, wage earner, but co-dependent too.

[Cat Familiar]

That article is absolutely the best description of codependency that I’ve ever read! Thanks for posting that link, Skip.

I was trained at an early age to be codependent and though many of the traits described don’t describe me, either now or in the past, one consistent issue has been hard to let go, and that is the idea that other people’s wants and needs are more important than my own. I know I can take care of myself, but it’s always seemed so impolite not to think of others before thinking of myself. Putting myself first has always seemed like a “sin”.

I have taken this self sufficiency to extremes in not asking for help, and then I’ve been resentful when I’ve realized that I’m doing “everything” and other people are getting a “free ride” due to my labor.

I’ve come a long way in my recovery from codependency but I still have difficulty with “My partner’s struggles affect my serenity.” It’s hard to feel comfortable when he’s grousing and griping over insignificant and sometimes very important things. Finding peace in those moments is an issue I’m still grappling with, but I do notice I’m no longer dropping everything in an effort to “help”.

[once removed]

I've always defined codependence to myself as'

codependent tendencies arent limited to a doormat/pushover type, which is the impression i think a lot of people get. it can involve those things; it can just as easily describe the partner who "demands respect".

The article says the opposite of co-dependency is a well differentiated person.

becoming better differentiated is inherently difficult to do even if one wants to, because it involves learning to see ourselves more objectively, which often requires an outside perspective. theyre called "blinders" for a reason.

I know I can take care of myself, but it’s always seemed so impolite not to think of others before thinking of myself. Putting myself first has always seemed like a “sin”.

my faith demands that i put others first. nothing about that has or ever will change for me. a well differentiated person views themselves as responsible to, but not for others.

theres a difference. a person with codependent tendencies gravitates toward relationship dynamics that give them a sense of self worth and/or superiority.

[Cat Familiar]

my faith demands that i put others first. nothing about that has or ever will change for me. a well differentiated person views themselves as responsible to, but not for others.

theres a difference. a person with codependent tendencies gravitates toward relationship dynamics that give them a sense of self worth and/or superiority.

Good parsing of this concept, OR. I’ve fallen into being responsible for, not to, when I’ve felt that my partner was less emotionally healthy than me. In my current marriage the discrepancy isn’t nearly as wide as in my first marriage, and I’m learning to not take on things that are his to do. It takes mindfulness to not immediately jump into caretaking, and practice, just like developing any new habit.

[Skip]

Is this who you are?

Ok, who am I now ... .
*I feel old, beat up, rode hard, and put up "wet".
*I think I am empathic, yes I am, ... .but I don't tolerate someone, people who would do anything to hurt me (emotionally), or my children.
*I don't have much faith in humanity as a whole.
*I am carnally minded, I do like to see a beautiful woman, and I understand its just look, NO touch... .
*Love ... .as in romantic, little to no faith, or trust anymore.
*I live in a place that is happy, and woe betide to anyone whom threatens this "happy place".
*I have used drink, and cigarettes to self sooth, but I quit the smokes.
*I want my wife to be happy, even if its not with me ... .
*I have a hard heart now, as far as my marriage (current) ... .if she were to leave this afternoon, I could care less ... .that's the extent of the person I have become, I trust no one (women) really anymore, ... .that's pretty crazy I know... .too bad really.
*I am a nice guy ; )
* I am easy going, carefree, I like to do my own thing, I am fiercely independent now... .and I don't like it when someone try's to "reign me in".
*I don't like bullies, and @SS_O_'s
*Do I love my wife (current) ... .Lord, I don't really know if I even know what that kind of love is anymore ... .I do love my children, my family, some very close friends ... .my dog, my cat ... .but I am very untrustworthy, and very suspicious of people sometimes.
*I was very naïve for a very long time, and it was very costly ! ... .but I figure I got enough barbwire wrapped around my little black plastic Darth Vader heart now up to keep the really bad ones from getting inside my helmet, and to my "command post" .
*I am a caretaker, a protector, I would do anything for anybody, ... .how does this compute with the above?
*Better leave me alone when I give off the warning, or else !
*I am quietly angry, and sad, and I cry in private, I conceal my emotions most times ... .I am very private.
*I don't want to hurt anybody, I want everybody to A-OK !
*I like helping people and fixing things for people.
*I don't want anything from anybody.
*I want everybody to be happy and safe.

[Skip]

And this... .

My marriage relationship has run its course I think, not too many unknowns anymore, the lines have been drawn, I understand her a little more everyday.

She is who she is, there is no "fixing her" ... .

I am too tired to try to "make her happy" anymore (futility) ... ."life is tough, and its tougher if you act stupidly" ... so I try not to act stupid  !

No, don't worry about me Skip, ole' Red5, I'll be just fine and dandy !

Life is good here, I got plenty of mason jar wine, the beach is only ten minutes away, and my fishing license is not expired yet.

[Red5]

Is this who you are?

If I were smart Skip, and listening to my gut, as I should... .yes... .that’s me, when all four screws are turning at flank speed... .

Yes... .I think for now there is not much more I can do, when she hauled off and hit my kid, .that’s a red line crossed... .

Yes, I go back and read all those old posts too, .

I remember the “checklist” I wrote back in 2017, one would think that / that would make me keep my “bearings”.

What do I feel right now, I feel hopeless... . but releived... .“respite”.

What was it you wrote... .“you asked/told her to leave, and she did”... .

To be honest, I emotionally withdrew from the marriage over a year ago now, .and now I’m guilty as h3ll about it... .but like that told us in cold weather training, “it’s just survival right”... .

I’m hanging in there Skip, lots on my mind right now, I texted her this morning on the way to work, and she told me she loved me back... .then she let me have it... .anger anger anger... .she says my son attacked her... .so she is doing that “projective reasoning thing”... .

I’ve read volumes about how pw/BPD will rewrite the events to fit the guilt... .or something like that... .

I can hit replay as many times as I want too, but it won’t change anything... .what happened really happened... .

I know... .I wrote all that in the [quotes]... .I sure did, I was at the end of my rope and I was ready to let it go, .“beaten down, tired”... .so as I type this, why in the world would I still think me and her have any chance at all?

... .She told me the same things... .she feels “beaten down, tired”... .no strength left to “fight for me”... .hmmm, what did that mean?

So no wonder Major Tom tells me I’m codependent!

Therapy for her, counseling for me, relationship workshops for the both of us... .no, it’ll be a cold day in the nether regions  before she goes to “therapy”.

Thanks for listening Skip, .any ideas?

Red5

P.S.
Please ad to the above list,
*I never accept credit or praise for conduct during combat operations.
*I always put myself last, or else not at all before the troops.
*I believe humility is the strongest leadership trait.

Thanks in advance ; )

 

[Notwendy]

Red, the traits you described in the armed forces are desirable and admirable. We owe a debt of gratitude to the brave members of the armed forces who risked and some gave their lives for our freedoms. In some areas of life, the attributes that appear co-dependent ( but not co-dependency)  are desirable. We need soldiers to protect us, medical providers who put their patients' interests needs first.

In these situations, the soldier who sacrifices for their country, or the nurse who takes care of a patient, or the parent who cares for a baby - is acting for the good of the people in their charges. Co-dependency is different. It appears to be acting for the other person's good, but if you look at it closely, it actually doesn't do  the other person or the co-dependent good.

Co-dependency looks like being good and caring, but isn't. It's not in the other person's best interest. It enables their undesirable behavior, creates dependency in them, and can actually stunt their own emotional growth- when someone else is always managing their partner's feelings  - the partner doesn't learn to manage their own feelings. They don't learn from the natural consequences of their actions. At the heart of co-dependency is controlling behavior masquerading as selflessness. It takes some work to see it this way. A sponsor showed me and once I could see it, it made sense.

I haven't been a soldier, but I am a mother and the mother -child relationship requires selflessness, but to a point. A mother who gives up her own self care isn't at her best. We're all aware of the "put oxygen on first" airplane safety. As a parent, we balance protecting our kids and letting them learn from their actions. When a child forgets their homework, the protective instinct is to bring it to school for them. What's in the child's best interest is to let them face the teacher, and learn that they need to remember their homework. If a parent brings it to them, they won't learn. Adults learn this way too. If we protect, intervene, we stop their own learning. If we negate ourselves in a relationship, we encourage entitlement.

Your giving traits are desirable and also essential to the well being of your son. Even though he has delays, there are times when it is best to intervene and help and times to let him learn to manage what he is capable of on his own- even if he is frustrated when learning.

Managing co-dependency doesn't mean not doing caring things or being an uncaring person. It's about being mindful of the effects of helping on the other person and ourselves. It helps us be aware of when we are truly helping, and when we are enabling.

[Cromwell]

... .She told me the same things ... .she feels “beaten down, tired”... .no strength left to “fight for me”... .hmmm, what did that mean?

Just my thought that perhaps it is a reversal of "why does it appear you arent fighting for me like I thought you would have"

imagine if you picked up on this and saw it as a green light - if she wanted to triangulate, your reaching out attempts would be good for this.

maybe youve been too quiet, she is tired - but it opens up the idea of "if she wasnt, she (might)"

im not speaking on her behalf but i look back to my ex and she spoke like this all the time, it is rhetoric use of language, aporia and intentionally cryptic, non committal and open ended. But it always worked out the same, like setting a snare to waltz into.

when you do this to a person who is direct, open and hates the cryptic crossword puzzle part of the newspaper, it started to drive me nuts. My parents who are not fancy psychologists called this sort of stuff "they speak with the forked tongue"

whenever I would start to ask for more clarity on stuff, she would just shut down with throw away phrases like "nevermind" or "it doesnt matter". So this was training eventually for later on "dont bother trying to figure out, just go along the path I create, i set the pace, tempo and where it leads to".

John 3:20
Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

[Red5]

Just my thought that perhaps it is a reversal of "why does it appear you arent fighting for me like I thought you would have"

... .it is rhetoric use of language, aporia and intentionally cryptic, non committal and open ended. But it always worked out the same, like setting a snare to waltz into.

... .when you do this to a person who is direct, open and hates the cryptic crossword puzzle part of the newspaper, .my parents called this sort of stuff "they speak with the forked tongue"

... .whenever I would start to ask for more clarity on stuff, she would just shut down with throw away phrases like "nevermind" or "it doesnt matter".

So this was training eventually for later on "dont bother trying to figure out, just go along the path I create, I set the pace, tempo and where it leads to".

John 3:20
Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

Good post Man!,

I read this / this morning in my Bible, .I think it fits to my current conundrum... .

1st Timothy 6; v20. Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge. v21. Which some have professed and in so doing have departed from the faith.

Red5

[Ruskin]

HI Red5, Happy New Year

I hope you don’t mind, I read your post on co-dependency and recent events. Definitely one familiar with many of us (albeit I had never heard the term before coming to this forum).  I read your listed points on codependancy, definitely helped frame it for me…

Hope you don’t mind my asking, earlier I had a question I had wanted to ask you, (sent via PM) no worries if you don’t do PM, just working through the fall out over here, some successfully some not so… but heading in the right direction

Best regards
Ruskin

[Red5]

HI Red5, Happy New Year

I hope you don’t mind, I read your post on co-dependency and recent events. Definitely one familiar with many of us (albeit I had never heard the term before coming to this forum).  I read your listed points on codependancy, definitely helped frame it for me…

Hope you don’t mind my asking, earlier I had a question I had wanted to ask you, (sent via PM) no worries if you don’t do PM, just working through the fall out over here, some successfully some not so… but heading in the right direction

Best regards
Ruskin

Good morning Ruskin!

My PM ability is off line at the moment, so I am unable to access it, sorry about that Brother, hopefully in a few more days I will be able to use the PM again, computers eh’

I am in the wide open “clear” here and able to transmit on the boards though : )

It’s good to hear from you, and I hope you are doing well, .as you can read above, Major Tom, who I call my “T” tells me I’m codependent... .I knew of this term before and what in my own mindful experiences... .maybe knew what it meant, but I need to further learn as the above posters on this thread are writing... .in regards to,

As each day goes by, I learn a little more, and my undiagnosed wife shows me just a little more whom she really is ; (

I haven’t looked at the calendar yet this morning... .  it today is day forty seven of the separation I think... .I’ve got a long way to go my friend... .but all of us are on this journey together ; )

Hang tough Ruskin!

Top of the day to you!

Red5

[Cromwell]

Red5

As each day goes by, I learn a little more, and my undiagnosed wife shows me just a little more whom she really is ; (

I know that as I got further in time out of the relationship and my emotional state settled down, I made better progress at trying to figure stuff out. I know you have a rational logic mind worked as an engineer but the emotional and rational sides of the brain are linked together. It took me time to realise in the midst of this knowledge gathering that id lost sight that I really should be playing the priority role - that of 'patient'. Resting, recovering as much as possible and not trying to solve this stuff (and it isnt the most straightforward subject at the best of times).

Eventually I got answers that were less swayed by my emotional hurt and more objective. Have to get out of the fog completely first, steady as she goes.

[Red5]

Eventually I got answers that were less swayed by my emotional hurt and more objective.

Have to get out of the fog completely first,

... .steady as she goes.

UR right Cromwell !... .get out of the fog completely first !

I have a curious question Sir, is your screen name in regards to Thomas Cromwell, 1st Earl, the English lawyer and statesman who served as chief minister to King Henry VIII of England from 1532 to 1540?

Or are you connecting to a different Cromwell?

Just curious : )

... .I binged watched "Wolf Hall" (TV Mini-Series 2015), Cromwell was my fav character.

Yes, "engineering, .make revolutions for ten knots, steer two two zero helmsman, all ahead slow now, steady as she goes"... . 

Red5

[Cat Familiar]

I know that as I got further in time out of the relationship and my emotional state settled down, I made better progress at trying to figure stuff out. I know you have a rational logic mind worked as an engineer but the emotional and rational sides of the brain are linked together. It took me time to realise in the midst of this knowledge gathering that id lost sight that I really should be playing the priority role - that of 'patient'. Resting, recovering as much as possible and not trying to solve this stuff (and it isnt the most straightforward subject at the best of times).

Eventually I got answers that were less swayed by my emotional hurt and more objective. Have to get out of the fog completely first, steady as she goes.

Cromwell offers some good advice here. For those of us who are very logical, of course we try and "figure it out" but it's unlikely that any theory will ever suffice.

I think back to when I split from my first husband and I confronted him for not closing down a joint credit account, as he said he would. Instead, he lived off that credit card and ran tens of thousands of dollars of expenses on it.

When I asked him about his plan for paying that off, he told me that he was opening up other credit accounts and paying the minimum balance with other cards.

WHAT?

Then he told me it wouldn't be a problem since he was going to write a screenplay and sell it for $500K.

Wow! In all the years we'd been together, he once wrote a short story and that was the extent of his "writing career".

I remember that moment as if it were yesterday, though many years have passed. Was he always this crazy and I didn't notice? Was he doing meth with his new girlfriend? Who is this person?

Years later, I still have no clue, although every couple of years I get a call from some company he's stiffed, trying to track him down. My name and his are linked forever on the Internet.  

[Red5]

Years later, I still have no clue, although every couple of years I get a call from some company he's stiffed, trying to track him down. My name and his are linked forever on the Internet.  

For years after my first divorce, "Navy Fed" used to call me up looking for the ex, apparently she never paid her credit card bill... .

... .for years!

It finally stopped... .I even had to "answer to this"  when I got my clearance adjudicated back in 2012... .yeah, this stuff "sticks with you"... .

... .she was the "one", who learnt me about "codependence"... .witch starts with the letter "c", .like the acronym "CPTSD"    

Red5

[Cromwell]

I have a curious question Sir, is your screen name in regards to Thomas Cromwell, 1st Earl, the English lawyer and statesman who served as chief minister to King Henry VIII of England from 1532 to 1540?

Or are you connecting to a different Cromwell?

Just curious : )

Hi Red5

Never heard of the lad.

Well its a step up better than Oliver Cromwell. (im Irish)

Skip chose the name. I think from what Ive profiled him, its more in line with the Cromwell (A27M) that has taken shy over a year in production. (in my case Completed after the war was over)  

Will have to watch that series though.

Anyway, quid pro quo.

im curious now as well. Something special forces related or am I way off?

I sometimes have asked friends who were in the military stuff and theyve cracked me up with the response "I could tell you, but then id have to kill you"  

Anyway, money and BPDx, she was disasterous with managing it but that matches up with known traits. I havent paid the credit card I was using back then but that matches up with my own personality disorder assigned to me and just following my role as part of the labelling theory that I am not a non who is expected to behave as a fully functional unit.

[Red5]

Hi Red5

Never heard of the lad.

... . 

Well its a step up better than Oliver Cromwell. (im Irish)

I've read of him too 

Skip chose the name. I think from what I've profiled him, its more in line with the Cromwell (A27M) that has taken shy over a year in production. (in my case Completed after the war was over)  

Ah'... .armor !... .I can talk in "tank" !

Will have to watch that series though.

While your "shopping", look up the "Terror" series, "this is a fictionalized account of Captain Sir John Franklin's lost expedition to the Arctic in 1845–1848"... .I am a big fan of the "Tuunbaq" (?).

Anyway, quid pro quo... .im curious now as well... .something special forces related or am I way off?

Answer... .as I am a rabid sci-fi fan  ... .'Red5' is Luke Skywalker's "call-sign", when he flew with the "Red Squadron" at the Battle of Yavin, "Star Wars" [Star Wars: Episode IV – A New Hope]... .ole' Luke Skywalker... .my best friend back home flew AH-64 Apaches in the first Gulf War, his last name is "Walker", so his call sign was also "SkyWalker"... .

Anyway, money and BPDx, she was disastrous with managing it but that matches up with known traits.

My uBPDw, is (was) an accountant by career billet, she was really good with "numbers"... .her trick was to spend all the money I made, and save all the money she made... .which she took when she moved out forty seven daze ago ... .I believe this has something to do with "enmeshment"... .as in, if I'm in debt, I can't leave... .but she has a huge savings, so she is "autonomous"... .

hmmm,

Red5

[Harri]

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