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Author Topic: Do they know what they are doing is wrong?  (Read 242 times)
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« on: January 10, 2019, 09:19:48 PM »

This post was split from the following thread as it merited its own discussion: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=333021.0

Excerpt
Cromwell wrote;....do they know what they are doing is wrong? yes but in there mind it is justified, because they were swayed so strongly by the emotional current.

In my case, she showed no remorse, she projected it all back onto me, and blamed me for what happened.

This justification of the abuse, and then showing zero remorse; is such a negative dynamic, and was so strange to actually hear her voice say the words.... in this case it was over the phone on Monday night.

It was eerie ....

The difference in her ematiomal demeanor from eleven years ago to the present is astounding.

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« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2019, 12:48:11 AM »

right and wrong is morally subjective anyway.

i might think its wrong to cheat on my partner just because they were 5 minutes late, my ex would think it is justfied. Who is the one out there that holds the legitamacy to rule about it? At best, coming to a board like this and venting, is really just the equivalent of telling my story to the court of public opinion and hope to get a majority that can validate that what happened was right or wrong behaviour. Yet at the base, the verdict  changes nnext to nothing in practical real world terms.

You can just as well take BPD completely out of the equation and it would have no change to the base of the argument. A condition that has impulsivity as one of the permutations is just going to aggravate any undesirable consequences.But morals of right and wrong - isnt all this supposed to have been influenced way back.

My ex had this notion of "ive lost the ego, I can do whatever I want"

what she didnt extend the same courtesy out to was to allow others the same free reign. Cheating, stealing, lying - it was fine as long as she was the one doing it. But if it happened to her it was considered the worst moral outrage.

im just glad to be free from the hypocrisy. At first I was sucked in by her multitude of complaints about the cruel world, present and past that had afflicted her. Then when I saw the disregard she did to others and saw the contrast in lack of empathy or concern, it was hard to find pity for it anymore. If I have to be honest, I started to find an element of shadenfreude that she was getting a taste of her own medicine. Not that it ever worked as a lesson to not treat others how you dont want to be treated yourself.
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« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2019, 02:50:21 PM »

The difference in her emotional demeanor from eleven years ago to the present is astounding.

When I was splitting up with my ex-husband, I was astounded by his sudden loss of any attachment to honesty. He made a number of false claims about assets that I had bought with my own money, some of them after we split up. In court, I had to prove the money trail came solely from me.

I knew he had a sketchy relationship to morality since he was a serial adulterer. But I didn't think he'd go so far as to lie in court about assets that I could prove (with a lot of research) were totally mine.

To answer the question, "Do they know what they are doing is wrong?"  --I'm not sure if he did. He justified his behavior when I confronted him about it, saying that he was only doing what he needed to get what he felt he deserved.
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« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2019, 04:25:00 PM »

Red, I was actually going to post about this because I’m confused about it as well.

My therapist tells me that emotionally manipulative people always know what they’re doing. This conflicts with the spectrum. Personally, I think that S4’s mom always knew what she was doing with the tools that were taught and handed down to her. Then again, I can’t be sure. I simply don’t understand how everything turned out the way that it did. I remain baffled by it. 

It is what it is. I wonder what kind of wisdom Yoda would offer.
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« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2019, 05:48:24 PM »

I’ve been reading a lot of late about maladaptive behaviors, and pw/bpd.

Disproportionate emotional replies to low conflict incidents, resulting in bpd rage.

Leaving the non (me) battered and confused ... my journals are chocked full, overflowing.... of these incidents.

That said, how could she, not be aware of what she was doing.

Was talking to my “T” last Thursday... he has done a lot of work in addictions.... namely alcohol .... he told me of an unnamed client, who said, the recovering alcoholic will always remember the last “drunk”.... woke up in jail, all beat up, cops took me home, and my little,daughter said to me .... “daddy, where were you, what happened to you, where’s mommy”....

Strong medicine ....

So how could ubpdw not know, especially with the marks, and damage still visible round the house .... holes and dents in th drywall, the woodwork, .... broken glass in the trash bin, more coffee cups missing .... etc’.

Do they (pw/bpd) not remember, .... consciously when the shift in emotion starts, when the choice is in front of them, to either release “Hyde”.... or not.... and what that means if they do.... I think they (she) does... or did,.... eleven years?.... yes, she knows what she is doing.

How many incidents over the entire eleven years, including eight married....

I was “ not the first”, there were four men, love interest, all sexual, before me, after her own divorce.... in about a period of sixteen months, one lasted nine months.....

I recall a phone conversation she had with her own S31, that he shared with me three nights after the trigger event,.... he told me, what his mom said to him ....talking about me, “
She said, ...”I can’t control him anymore, he’s different now, there is something about him, he talks differently to me, he won’t listen to me anymore, or do what I want him to do”....

Yes, she is indeed quite aware of what she is doing, ...

Here are the top eight (8) Master Yoda sayings....
1. "Do or do not. There is no try."

2. "You must unlearn what you have learned."

3. "Named must be your fear before banish it you can."

4. "Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

6. "That is why you fail."

7. "The greatest teacher, failure is."

8. "Pass on what you have learned."

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« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2019, 05:56:15 PM »

Red, loved the post. It made me cry for whatever reason. Maybe it was Yoda. Thanks.
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« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2019, 07:03:05 PM »

Red, loved the post. It made me cry for whatever reason. Maybe it was Yoda. Thanks.

I am a simple Man WTL.

But I’ve chewed a lot of dirt.

My “T” and I make small talk for the first ten or so minutes of the session.... we were talking of childhood..... and summer, turns out we both rode the “tobacco harvester”....

About three of four decades ago, in the south, school kids worked the farms in the summer, “cropping” tobacco, watermelons, peanuts, sweet potatoes .... very hard work, we made money, toiled day break till sunset, we sweated, we worked hard, and we learned about life....

The “sand load” is the first or second run through the tobacco patch, you pick the ripe leaves, starting at the bottom of the plant, the first “run” is fraught with endless sand spurs... sticker bushes, weeds, and the occasional rattle snake.... yeah, it’ll make a tuff kid outa you : )

If you can take the “sand loads”... the rest of life should be a walk on the beach !

After I got a little older, say about thirteen, Grampa figured I could work in tha sawmill, without “maiming” myslef : 0

So I moved up in the world, to “sawmill hand”!

So I worked in that sawmill till I was eighteen, and then I joined the United States Marine Corps .... as I was pretty much tired at having to work so damn hard to make a living Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) !

And what was my job in the Marines.... well now, I loaded bombs on jet fighters !

I moved up again .... now I’d become an “Aviation Ordnanceman”....

But....to this very day, I still sometimes dream that I’m working in that sawmill .... thank God for Granny and Grampa (heart emoji) : )

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« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2019, 06:02:58 AM »

Red, thank you for your service to this great country. My son and myself appreciate the freedoms that people like you protect and honor. I’m proud to be engaged with you here. In fact, I watched a very touching YouTube video a couple weeks ago that I’ll share with you after this post.

You’ve worked hard your whole life. I think that instilling work in children is paramount to their development. We’re turning them loose in a society that requires work. It’s a fine line of allowing them to be kids and somehow instilling in them the benefits of working hard for what they want out of life. This poses another question. What do they want out of life? These days, many young people don’t know and they just drift. I don’t want that for my son. His mom drifts. Do you have advice on how to help guide a child in the right direction when it comes to this?

Here’s the link. It’s inspirational.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VJJ1TXBY62c
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« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2019, 03:40:58 PM »

My h does know what he has done - of course, he doesn't admit that to people other than me. It was part of the reason that he moved out - guilt and shame are powerful and escape from those emotions was underlying his choices. At the time, he was projecting the problem all on me...  My existence reminded him...  Now he's in his own apartment which reminds him... 

He still knows what he has done. A couple of weeks ago, he left me a vm where he apologized specifically for something very serious. (I'm trying to find a way to save it outside of the vm system)  He thinks only a "monster" would do what he has done.
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« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2019, 03:58:32 PM »

it depends. has a person with bpd (or anyone else for that matter) ever done anything to hurt someone, and knew what they were doing is wrong? sure. have they felt guilt or remorse for it afterward? sure.

i assume the question is more general than that, and so its really a matter of perspective.

you read all the time here about us "being reactive", that we were pushed to behave in dysfunctional ways. that we were just defending ourselves. that we were "calling a spade a spade".

i realize the question is about our exes, and not us; i bring that up because it can better help understand where our exes are coming from. typically, their perspective is the same or similar as ours. that perspective comes from an entrenched, defensive place, characterized by ever growing distrust and frustration. it is a coping style.

i think we can miss the forest through the trees if the question we ask is "was my ex trying to hurt me and simply didnt care". its more a reflection of just how far and badly the relationship broke down.
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« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2019, 04:01:19 PM »

I struggle with this question too. Just like I struggle with wondering if ubpdh is capable of real empathy, or just good at faking it sometimes, or whether a desperation for his own needs to be met drowns out the empathy he might feel.

He has apologized many times and it would seem sincere, but it never produced change. Is that because it wasn't truly remorse, or because his behavior is pathological? Idk. He did tell me a few months ago, before NC, that he wasn't really sorry all the other times he said it. That he said it just to get me to either come back or not leave again.

Bottom line, though, he does not "get it" when it comes to the damage he has caused, to me, the kids, his mother... he does not recognize the impact.

I compare it to active addiction. An addict or alcoholic on some level knows that their behavior is harmful to themselves and others, and that it is "wrong." But there are many ways an addict will justify the behavior in order to survive the guilt and shame of it. Denial is a big part of that, too, and many addicts fool themselves with the belief that "I'm not hurting anyone but myself, so it's ok." Which is not the case.

Possibly some (probably not all, don't want to generalize) people with pd's do know on some level that their behavior is wrong, but they downplay, minimize, deny, and blameshift to avoid the shame and accountability for it.

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