How much do my red flags matter in a relationship - Part 2

[Harri]

Continued from: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=327870.0 JNChell, thank you for your kindness and support.  Mostly though, thank you for accepting me.  

Fie, you are such a delight! --->  "And if I do encounter them (I do still think they are out there a lot) ... I run !"    Most people out there are damaged, some more than others and some are clueless about it all.  

I am doing okay thank you for asking Fie.  I am very tired though.  This was a very emotional thread for me and it stirred up a lot and I think I processed a lot and that always wipes me out.  It is a good feeling though.

I was thinking earlier about how I worry about when to tell someone the events of my past.  It has to be the right time for me.  If the other person finds out and feels like I was holding secrets or being deceitful that is how they feel about it... .it does not mean that I waited too long.  The time of when it was right for me is just different than what it would have been for them.  It doesn't make either of us wrong.

Thanks again everyone.  

[isilme]

So why even mention it other than to say something like 'I did not have a happy childhood' and not get into specifics.  I mean my red flags and triggers are for me alone to manage.  Why does the other person need to know any of what happened?  They only need to know who I am now.

Sorry, wasn't able to read all the responses, just wanted to put in a few cents here.

They might want to know a few specifics, so they don't say "the wrong thing" later.  If you were sexually abused, they'd know it's a tough subject, and to be sensitive (also, if you were NOT sexually abused, it's good to clear the air, because they WILL wonder if you are vague, and either way, it's not something YOU should be ashamed of, none of this is).  If they know you were raised in an orphanage, they'd know Oliver Twist might be a bad movie choice, and so on. 

I understand being guarded to a point, but once you feel someone is a friend close enough to even broach the subject, they will have seen whether you talk about mom and dad.  What you typically do during the holidays.  If you celebrate mother's day, father's day, etc.  A GOOD friend will have picked up a little, like "Harri never talks about elementary school, even if we're all laughing about stop drop and roll and visits to class from Ronald McDonald?"

I am learning to be more open, albeit I admit I tend to joke it all away at first, partly to put them at ease.  "My mother and I are strained because she is my wayward 70+-year-old teenage daughter with substance abuse issues !"  I then say, my mom's bipolar so our roles were often reversed, and it made things hard once I was old enough to realize things were weird.  My dad is harder because people here actually grew up with him.  After growing up far afield from here, he ran to his hometown when he divorced mom, and here I stayed.  Mom's misdeeds are a bit easier to talk about because I'm not around people who knew her when. 

Anyway, if they are a friend, it's okay for them to know.  And yes, the time needs to be right for you.  Give them a chance to do right by you.  I know it's hard but just say, "look, I've been cagey about my history because it hurt me really bad.  I'd like to give you a little of it, just to help you see where I come from, and how it made me, well, me.  I trust you with this, and don't just tell everyone these things, please understand that."

[Harri]

Hi Isilme   

Anyway, if they are a friend, it's okay for them to know.  And yes, the time needs to be right for you.  Give them a chance to do right by you.

Yes, I need to give them a chance.  That is hard.  While i am jaded and suspicious, that is a hard exterior that is hiding my very real desire to be accepted and liked and that part of me is easily hurt.  Again, I have to remind myself that the people I meet now are not going to be like the people I've met before and even if they are, I am different and have different coping skills. 

Thank you Isilme.  Knowing what you have experienced and knowing that you have been able to share and form friendships helps me. 

[CautiousHopeful]

Hi Harri,

After reading through this thread I can relate to it. I've had a chronic pain based disability since the age of 13, and I also experience dissociation which worsens when any FOO issues come up. I don't know if it helps, but I have found trying to think of myself as a best/good friend and care for myself accordingly seems to help in terms of relating to others. I'm not very good at caring for myself in this way (or perhaps I should say I haven't been good at it but I am getting better). I think so many of us with pwBPD have had the idea so entrenched in us that we exist to care for others and prioritise their needs. I think as I slowly learn to prioritise my own needs I am less concerned about whether I have 'red flags' that show to others, as getting stronger within valuing my own self-worth seems to help me come across better to others and I worry less about appearing inept, flawed and all the other things I was made to feel as a child. Mostly I don't tell anyone about my childhood experiences, but I think it is a case of just being aware of what you feel around certain people and listening to your instinct about whether they might be the right person to share with, and how much to share.

As far as the dissociation goes, I've increasingly recognised that this is a way my body tries to protect me and is a survival mechanism from childhood (as I'm sure you are aware of in relation to yourself too). I'm trying to work with this in a constructive way where I can find an inner voice that says 'It's ok, I'm looking after you', and knowing my body is protecting me is what sometimes can help the dissociation to lessen or dissipate. As I've recently been struggling to deal with issues relating to emotional breakdowns in both my mother and brother where I have been their carer, I have had some very spacey episodes. It's made me recognise I have reached my limit of being able to be so available to others as a carer, but yes I'm not sure if I'd normally disclose experiencing dissociative episodes to others unless I had a sense they would understand, so I know it is a balancing act working out what to tell others and what not to tell.

I was wondering if you are not sure the social gatherings with people in the place where you live are your thing, if there might be other social opportunities that are low stress and don't require too much from you? For example, I love photography and recently joined a photography club in my city. As there is a central interest around why the members of the club come together, it kind of makes it an easier way of socialising around a shared interest. At this stage I wouldn't engage them in discussion about my personal life, but it does give me time with people and I do find that it's good for me, and definitely helps to break up dissociation and feel better after I've been to the fortnightly meetings. Of course it has to be the right group for you, and I tried being a member of another group earlier on and found they were not the right people for me to be around, so it is going with what feels right.

But I totally understand the struggle with intimacy thing. Having had my trust breached both in my FOO and later in life, I've tended to shelter myself a way a lot as a form of protection. But I think I'm slowly learning to listen to my intuition better about who to trust, and I've realised it is a slow and gradual process for some of us to get to a point where it becomes clearer about who we can trust.

You've posted some very insightful, wise and kind responses to people on this forum, including myself, which tells me that you have these good qualities. Sometimes it is a case of turning this insight and wisdom back onto ourselves, and that we do have the inner resources to support ourselves. Often the 'red flags' we worry about others seeing are similar worries to what many other people have, and they may also be thinking, do I tell this person such and such? I think these things do get easier in time, it can just be a hard slog working it all out, but that is all the more reason to be nurturing towards yourself and remember that you are a wise survivor who can thrive as well (which I keep having to try and remember myself).

I don't know if any of that was helpful? But I can relate to your post. I've also had the issue about whether to disclose my medical condition to others, but again, it seems safe in some situations and not right in others, so I try to go with that. All the best Harri 

[Harri]

Hi!  Thanks for the reply.    I am sorry to hear that you can relate but I am glad you reached out to me on this.   

I think as I slowly learn to prioritise my own needs I am less concerned about whether I have 'red flags' that show to others, as getting stronger within valuing my own self-worth seems to help me come across better to others and I worry less about appearing inept, flawed and all the other things I was made to feel as a child.

Now that some time has passed I realize that I am more concerned about me sharing my past than about how others will react to it.  How to do it.  When to do it.  A gradual give and take like Skip described earlier in the thread seems to be the answer but then my fears, which are solely about me, rear their ugly heads and I have been letting them hold me back. 

The fact is I am shy and reserved and it takes a while for me to be able to talk without being self-conscious, analyzing everything I say and just not being willing to take risks until i feel safe.  It is such a struggle for me and I get tired of myself.    It took me a long time to open up here and I am anonymous!  Grrr.  I think what you said about putting this in the context of my own needs is important for me to remember.  I am so busy trying to make others be comfortable with me that I fail to see me... if that makes sense... or is it that I am so big and awkward in my own mind that I am blind to anyone else.

I think I might be onto something there with that last one.  I am the one with issues about my issues.  Realistically there will be people out there who will not be comfortable with me or my past and I have to give up trying to make them be okay and I have to stop making my problems be so big in my own mind.  It is about control.  Me trying to control how they see me.  Me trying to control how they feel around me.  Me anticipating their needs before I even know what they are... all in an effort to control.  <grumbles to self>

I assume things are too big for them to handle because I think they are too big for me to handle.  Can you say projection?   It hurts to see that.  To see how I still let my past define me negatively and hold me back. 

I keep going round and round in circles with this, like I have other things.  What gives me hope is that I have reached a place of peace with some other issues here.  I will get there with this too.  Damn the process though.   I do not like it. 

I'm trying to work with this in a constructive way where I can find an inner voice that says 'It's ok, I'm looking after you', and knowing my body is protecting me is what sometimes can help the dissociation to lessen or dissipate.

I do the same but it is great to have a reminder and for others who may be reading this.  My dissociation is a lot better than it used to be but has been replaced with a lesser reaction of anxiety... which I am not as good at functioning with as I was dissociation.  It was easy for me to manage when dissociated as the feelings were just not a factor... at least not in the moment.  This spike in anxiety has been more noticeable to me for the last year or so and is frustrating as hell.  I get so annoyed with myself because nothing is big enough in my mind to justify the way I feel and how I react (withdrawing, whining--->  horrifying to see that in myself!) 

Low key social gatherings are in the works for me.  I have decided to go to some 'events' at the local library once the weather gets better.  I am not using a walker so getting out is not as big of a hassle and it is free at the library so money is not an issue.  Even if I sit there and say nothing I will be getting out!  And if I do talk there is a structure within which I can function.  That structure is important to me while I am getting a handle on my anxiety.  So thank you for helping me know that this is a good plan!

Intimacy...  <big drawn out sigh>  I keep saying I do not want it but I think deep down I do.  Not so much sex but a closeness.  I miss it though I have not had much of it in my life. 

CautiousHopeful, thank you for giving me an opportunity to talk out loud with you.   

[CautiousHopeful]

Hi Harri 

Thanks for your comments there because they really help me also.

I have been excruciatingly shy much of my life, and what you say there about trying to talk without being self-conscious is something I can really relate to. I think early life fear and anxiety relating to early family dynamics can prime us this way, especially if we have a BPD parent where it is unpredictable as to when the next crazy outburst from them might occur. It is like being primed for danger, and if we have known this since childhood it is quite understandable that we find ourselves being highly cautious about our interactions with others.

Even if it is an effort at control as you mention, it's important we aren't hard on ourselves about that as it is an understandable way of trying to keep ourselves safe, but I think in time this pattern can be gradually shifted. With the photography club I mentioned, I very much surprised myself walking in there the other day and quite confidently greeting the first person I met, rather than shuffling by, avoiding eye contact and scanning the room for safety as if a lion might come out an eat me at any moment  For me this is significant change - it is like small steps in the right direction. I remember thinking wow, I was kind of just like an everyday person interacting with the world 

I also found it really helpful where you mentioned about the dissociation transitioning into anxiety. I've had bad dissociation since the beginning of the year that was triggered by a volatile rage state from my mother that set me right back into prior traumas. Now that I'm emerging from that I have anxiety. As you say, being kind of numbed to the world with dissociation can sometimes be kind of easier, because we are not really feeling anything (though that can be disturbing in its own way). But once we start feeling again, it becomes possible to feel anxiety again which can interfere with our functioning.

I've been reading about the neurophysiology of trauma. Apparently when coming out of dissociation (the freeze state), we might have to cycle back up through an anxiety state (fight-or-flight) before regaining the ideal equilibrium we want to be in (rest-and-digest mode). I was reading about these things in a book by Peter Levine called In An Unspoken Voice. He has developed a method called somatic experiencing that works with these states. I would like to do the therapy and there are practitioners in my city, but don't have much money at present, so trying to learn about these things and implement what I can on my own.

So I think one way of looking at it is that everything our bodies are doing, such as dissociation and anxiety, are actually quite normal responses given what we have been through. Also, I think being with other people can help regulate our nervous systems (providing they are the right kind of people - kind, people with good boundaries etc), so gradually being able to interact with the world can help us on a road towards healing.

And yes intimacy (argh, sigh, exasperation), this has been so hard for me. I've actually run away from some potentially good relationships because this area is so scary for me and it is so hard for me to know if I am safe in a situation or not, so I totally get how challenging this is. I've learned to be very content with my own company, but I still know there is part of me that wishes I could overcome my torturous intimacy fears  But again, I think it is just very small steps at a time.

So thanks Harri for all you have said there, because it really helps me too   

[Harri]

With the photography club I mentioned, I very much surprised myself walking in there the other day and quite confidently greeting the first person I met,

    That is fantastic!   I can relate to feeling it is a victory when I can relate just like any other person.

I've been reading about the neurophysiology of trauma. Apparently when coming out of dissociation (the freeze state), we might have to cycle back up through an anxiety state (fight-or-flight) before regaining the ideal equilibrium we want to be in (rest-and-digest mode). I was reading about these things in a book by Peter Levine called In An Unspoken Voice. He has developed a method called somatic experiencing that works with these states. I would like to do the therapy and there are practitioners in my city, but don't have much money at present, so trying to learn about these things and implement what I can on my own.

Somatic experiencing sounds very interesting and I started to do a bit of reading on it as well.  My current T does not want to push me and I am finding that frustrating.  it is like she has forgotten that none of this is new to me... but that is for a different post. 

From: The Journal of Traumatic Stress:  Somatic Experiencing for Posttraumatic Stress Disorder: A Randomized Controlled Outcome Study Danny Brom,corresponding author 1 , 2 Yaffa Stokar, 1 Cathy Lawi, 3 Vered Nuriel‐Porat, 1 Yuval Ziv, 1 Karen Lerner, 4 and Gina Ross 3
SE is a treatment modality that allows therapists a different therapeutic stance from other therapies, both by allowing healing without the full explicit retelling of the traumatic events, and by focusing on releasing bodily tensions in the therapeutic process. In some ways, SE does resemble mindfulness practices that have become part of many therapeutic approaches, as well as the focus on nervous system activity through neurofeedback (van der Kolk et al., 2016). The direction of attention in SE, however, is more on bodily sensations and the way they change. Attention is led to positive sensations first and only in a second phase to the balance between positive/pleasant sensations and negative/unpleasant sensations.

And yes intimacy (argh, sigh, exasperation), this has been so hard for me. I've actually run away from some potentially good relationships because this area is so scary for me and it is so hard for me to know if I am safe in a situation or not, so I totally get how challenging this is. I've learned to be very content with my own company, but I still know there is part of me that wishes I could overcome my torturous intimacy fears  But again, I think it is just very small steps at a time.

Agreed.  It is strange to me that as I heal more, my anxiety increases yet I know I need to get out more and have been hiding no matter how content I am to stay in my own bubble.  There is discontent within my bubble now and I am questioning how much is just a defense  Everything is a bit wonky for me right now.

Anyway, thank *you* for sharing yourself with me here.  It helps to have someone who can relate and is working on the same sort of thing.  I marvel at people who can feel the same way yet have been able to have friends and families of their own.  I just want a friend to hang out with.   And yeah, I can look back and see a lot of missed opportunities where I could have had what I want if only I hadn't been so caught up in my own fears and magnified my own issues to the point where I blinded myself. 

Thanks CautiousHopeful