I Feel like a failure

[Swimmy55]

Hi All,
 I joined this forum back in March 2018 and have been reading .  My 24 year old son has BPD and there is something else going on as well but he won't go to therapy as of yet.  He did manage to graduate college in 2017 ( with ER visits, academic probations, public meltdowns, drug use).  Since graduation , he has exploded himself out of 2 jobs ( meltdowns, cursings) .  He also does pot and alcohol .  I have had to call the Crisis center 3 times within this past year.  He says the magic phrase" I'm not homicidal or suicidal" then they leave.  He is finally sort of toying with the idea he may need to talk to a therapist.  My thing is this... .am I being a damned patsy by having him still live in the house?  A part of me thinks I need to kick him out.  However, I can't bring myself to do it - at least not now.  I have started going back to NAMI family to family meetings.  I have set small minute boundaries like no, he can't have his friend stay with us(!) who also does not have a job and must be pretty depressed also to hang out with my son. 
I have tried the Amandour technique of LEAP but that falls to pieces when my son yells," Stop repeating everything I just said, just listen!" 
Has anyone else had any luck with LEAP?
Thanks for letting me vent.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[wendydarling]

Hi Swimmy55  

Welcome back I'm glad you've been reading and posted, we all need to be heard and supported, it's critical  Sounds like quite a lot has happened … two jobs blown, 3 crisis calls for starters, it's hard to see any progress I get it. I come from the position they can, may learn from their experience, it nudges them forwards... .'he's finally sort of toying with the idea he may need to talk to therapist... .…...

He is finally sort of toying with the idea he may need to talk to a therapist.  My thing is this... .am I being a damned patsy by having him still live in the house?  A part of me thinks I need to kick him out.  However, I can't bring myself to do it - at least not now.

How did he share with you ….the idea he may need to talk to a therapist? This is positive so I totally understand you not wanting to ask him to leave …… when he's considering taking responsibility for his mental health …. that was my no 1 goal and it's such a relief DD has engaged (she was 26) taken on her responsibility for her mental health, she's empowered and she's happy, yes she has her challenges, important thing is she now talks to me about it insightfully and I listen and emotionally support her.

I'm not familiar with LEAP though it looks like a combination of some of the tools we use here, is that right?

How are you, are you managing to find time for self care?

Glad you are back here with us!

WDx

[zachira]

My heart goes out to you hearing all the pain and frustration you are going through with your son. You are doing everything you can to help him, and it really hurts. It is so hard when we care so much about our children especially when they are not doing well. We also love our children more than anything in the world. You are indeed a worthy individual in your own right and deserve a lot of credit for continuing to stand by your son when things are going so badly. You are also setting healthy boundaries with him which is challenging. I am not familiar with LEAP. Can you share with us some basic information about LEAP, so we perhaps we can understand better how this program works and helps?

[Swimmy55]

Thank you for your support!  I checked out LEAP on one of the videos here in BPD Central forum.  It was like an hour long youtube video.  Maybe it was under the "tools" up along the top of this website.  He states that we need to make the sick person feel like we are on their side, so we have to reflect back to them what they say.  It validates them.  However, I can't get too far using this as it annoys my BPD son. 

[Swimmy55]

Part 2- he shared on his own he needed to talk to someone because he doesn't like his thoughts .
I am trying to do some self care but it is hard.
THanks

[wendydarling]

Swimmy55

he shared on his own he needed to talk to someone because he doesn't like his thoughts .

He's reaching out for help, despite all your crisis calls he invalidates. When did he share with you?

WDx

[Swimmy55]

He shared this with me about a week ago. I wrote a note reminding of him wanting to talk to a therapist and I would pay.  This is in case he forgot his little epiphany ... .a week is a long time in the mind of a BPD.
Thanks

[wendydarling]

He shared this with me about a week ago. I wrote a note reminding of him wanting to talk to a therapist and I would pay.

Sounds like he'd like to talk with you about, where he is now. Not the past, yet. I recognise this is hard for you, you've been through so much.  

Do you think he's seeking emotional support of family, friends, to get to treatment?

WDx

[Swimmy55]

Truthfully, I am not sure .  He doesn't seem to want "any help, My treatment is my business." He told me.  Mixed messages and circular talk.  you know the routine.

[Lollypop]

Hi swimmer

First of all I want to tell you what a fantastic mother you are. You clearly love your son so much and it seems that whatever you do you can’t get him sorted out. You’ve found us in your search for an answer. YOU are the parent your son needs right now. You are not a failure.

My thing is this... .am I being a damned patsy by having him still live in the house?  A part of me thinks I need to kick him out.  However, I can't bring myself to do it - at least not now.

I was in exactly the same spot you are on 4 years ago. A non-functioning son who resisted growing up. He was dx at 24 following a crisis. A history of uni drop out, dope, pills, lost jobs, failed courses ... .he was going nowhere at our expense. Our relationship was at rock bottom and we could barely be in the same room - there was so much tension.  My son’s a quiet BPD and it made challenging to work out if he was sad, in fear or angry - everything is internalised.  He was stuck.  I was stuck. Sound familiar?

So hello. This is the place you need to be.

My son is now 28 and functioning. He takes responsibility for his life and choices - and the consequences. He works and is learning to manage finances etc. He lives close by in a kind of half way situation. We are happier despite the problems. He lives a life that I didn’t want for him but I accept it’s his life. He is growing and, actually, so am I.

I encourage you to read as much as you can about BPD first of all. It helped me calm down as I then understood why he behaves like he does. I stopped reacting to his problems. I posted up lots and asked questions. The next step is to learn better ways to interact with your son. This will help you set better limits and boundaries in your house so everybody can get along better. Again, more work!

There’s not a quick fix but there is a way for you to explore to see if your situation can improve. I’ve learnt that things aren’t so black and white - the grey area is where we find a way together.

Of course, you can always kick him out and let him try it on his own. There’d be no judgement here. I’ve been there too. This is a long game. It’s about you finding your own way to have a better situation for yourself.

I kept giving my son money and opportunities. Are you doing the same? How is your son funding his lifestyle?

Hugs to you

LP

[livednlearned]

It's good that you kept to your boundary about the friend coming to live with you.   

If you are ok sharing, what behaviors lead to the crisis calls?
 

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Swimmy55]

Thank you both. 
1. Yep, I'm doing pretty much the same thing- he's living with me and I pay the bills.  Since he lost his second job in November, I have been paying minimum on his credit card, too.
2. I called the crisis line when I was afraid for myself.  The most recent  time was when he claimed he felt threatened by me so he carried around a baseball bat.  He didn't swing it at me, but carrying it around and not putting it down was enough.   Crisis center came out with a police officer and talked him down.  The other 2 times were his going into rages( cursing, yelling to the point I had to leave the house).  I came back and he was still riled up, so I called.  It starts with him talking at me with anger over something , then he builds up steam on his own and gets more and more rageful. That's why the LEAP stuff that is on the website doesn't help with him.  When I tried it when he is calmer,  he gets up and walks away mid sentence when I'm talking.   

When he was 15 he had to leave the home and live in a residential hospital , then a group home.I had to turn him over to his father, who turned him over to the state .  He was diagnosed at one time with bipolar, but the most recent diagnosis was BPD / narcissistic traits at the age of 18.  When he became 18, he signed off from any help, refused meds, but self medicates with dope and booze to this day.
I am glad to read that your son is 28 and managing a lot better out of the house.  That gives me some hope.  I am overwhelmed right now.

[Swimmy55]

I meant thank you all.  I am so upset and high strung I had to re -read to realize more than 2 people were responding to me!

[smallbluething]

My thing is this... .am I being a damned patsy by having him still live in the house?  A part of me thinks I need to kick him out.  However, I can't bring myself to do it - at least not now.

One thing me and my husband have struggled with with our daughter is exactly this feeling of 'aargh my DD21 is an idle, feckless ingrate spending all her time smoking weed and laying about at our expense'. There is a real instinct to exercise the 'tough love' kind of parenting approach in response - and exactly the feeling of being a patsy that you describe. I now understand (from reading here and other resources) that 'tough love' type approaches are completely counterproductive with BPD people and will just increase conflict.

Lollypop is an 'old hand' and has many wise words above. I'm a newbie but what I have gained from hanging out here and from reading this and other resources about BPD are the following things:
1) I gained insight into how BPD people experience things internally -much of the bad and impulsive behaviour is driven by great sensitivity to pain/rejection and the desire to blot the pain out for a while (eg drink/drugs). This enabled me to have more empathy for my daughter, and with this perspective not to take her rages so personally.
2) I can't necessarily change her but I can change how I react to her, how I interact with her and how I let her behaviour affect me. All of this can improve my state of mind even with no change on her part.
3) Letting go of expectations of what she *should* be able to achieve, and also stepping back and giving her space to find her own solutions. She may not be able to [find solutions], but again letting go of expectations is a biggie. Sometimes we just can't  fix it and we have to make peace with that.

I should add that I'm a newbie here and very much on a learning curve so I am still struggling very much with all putting all this into practice, but above all I now feel I have a new strategy for dealing with this stuff and this has given me hope. I recognise that what may help me won't be exactly the same for you but there is a huge pool of tools, tips and collective wisdom here in which I'm sure you'll find things of value to you. By the way, if LEAP isn't working for you check out the mercifully short 'Ending conflict' video if you haven't yet - 3 minutes very well spent: https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict

[Harri]

Hello.   You are getting some great help here and I only have a couple of things to add.

I meant thank you all.  I am so upset and high strung I had to re -read to realize more than 2 people were responding to me!

   Breathe.  We've got ya.  

Validation can be tricky to do and sometimes it is better to focus on not invalidating the pwBPD (person with BPD).  We have an article here that might help:  Don't Be Invalidating  I do not mean that you are invalidating him though.  sometimes when we talk to a person with BPD we inadvertently do it though.  They process things, including words, differently sometimes and what we say in an effort to help actually can come across as invalidating.  None of this is intuitive as you are seeing with the LEAP technique you have tried.  My feeling is, if one tool is not helping, see if changing things around will help.  If we can't validate, maybe we can see if we are in fact saying something a highly sensitive person will take as being invalidating despite our best efforts.  

Let us know what you think of the article when you can.

 

[livednlearned]

Your first priority is safety. I commend you for calling the crisis center when you recognize things are escalating and your safety is at risk. That's hard to do, and also necessary, with a child who has grown into an adult capable of harming you.
 

I have been paying minimum on his credit card, too.

You can always revisit this boundary when you have the strength. There are many ways to structure this boundary and friends here can help you think it through.

Do you notice any specific conversation topics that tend to wind him up?

When I tried it when he is calmer,  he gets up and walks away mid sentence when I'm talking.

He is regulating himself. Let him walk away -- it is not optimal behavior and at the same time it is the best he can do right now. BPD loved ones have a difficult time regulating emotions and may use their external environment to help regulate.

Another version of this is to say, "I will not be yelled at. When things start to heat up and voices get raised, I will walk away/leave the house/go into the other room. When I feel grounded I will come back around and try again."

That's how you help him regulate -- by removing yourself from the environment when he raises his voice.

I am overwhelmed right now.

Understandably so, Swimmy55. These are not just difficult relationships, they are the most difficult. First things first, being kind to yourself and having compassion for how well you're doing under these circumstances. 

[Swimmy55]

Reading through and processing your responses- thank you.
It is hard to guage what winds him up, as it sort of starts in his head.  Sometimes it will be a direct response to a disappointment, but other times it's a thing he stews on that pops in his head.  He still has rage about how I "abandoned him to the system" when he was a teen. All rage that he ever has expressed will eventually lead to this statement.  I understand why he would feel abandoned and not see it as help. 

I appreciate the  other quick reads/ videos to look at.  Again, I was beating up on myself because of LEAP not working and I was doing it wrong somehow.  It never occured to me that maybe I just need to try something else... It really helps to get this up and out of my head space.


Eventually I surely would love to hear about boundaries surrounding $$ / credit card payments.  I am toying with telling him get into therapy or else no payments from me.  However, that will drive him to be non compliant, passive aggressive, etc... .

His father is out of the picture now.  Actually he causes more harm than good when he's in touch with our son.  He will promise our son the moon, then disappear/ go no contact/ stand him up. I am left holding the bag with a raging bull.  I suspect  his Dad has some BPD as well but not for me to say.

Thanks

[Lollypop]

Hi swimmer

It is hard to guage what winds him up, as it sort of starts in his head

I find it’s more likely to be about basics. HALT. Hungry? Angry?  Lonely? Tired? For me, I had to time my conversations about more important things, I first had to gauge what was happening - if there were problems I’d have to be patient, Listen and validate. I just stopped talking anout his problems and focussed on trying for a better core relationship, o e that he felt safe in,

I’d pick my moments to raise a problem. He’d come home from work, I’d check he was full, had s good day? All ok? Id use SET, if there wasn’t an immediate problem I’d always try to leave it until another day, pick my opportunity when he was thinking better, clearer as he was more stable,

It’s about picking your battles. I read back and this post may seem weak, with clear priorities we don’t sweat the small stuff.

LP

[incadove]

Hi Swimmy

I just want to join LP in reiterating that if you are doing the best you are able and behaving in the best way you can figure out, that is a success in my book - it is a success of maintaining a caring and principled approach to your son.  He may be failing to do so but you are not!

I would just say, when my dd had an episode of heavy drinking that ended in a domestic violence, and she had a very different perspective than I did, I would not judge her or disagree, simply state my own boundary in a nonjudgemental way.  At my house I choose not to have that in my environment.  And she was able to respect that 100% from then on. 

Maybe if he is wishing to be respected as an adult, it is possible to treat him as an adult, and simply decide on your own boundaries.  What behaviors are you willing to tolerate and which ones are you not?  And if the ones that you are not occur, and you feel a need to leave the house, is there something that would assure you that it would not occur again?  I feel like my dd's are much more able to hear concerns if I phrase them as "I need this in my life" rather than "you are ... ".  They can understand that and in fact want to meet my needs as I want to meet theirs.  I know this is not always the case with our children.  But if I give them success and respect in small ways it helps. 

I will celebrate my dd's successes, and am simply neutral to things that I don't think much of, I try not to focus on them at all - they are not my problem. 

Is it possible to simply say that 'in my house, I am only comfortable having people here who are going to work or school at least x% of the time'? Perhaps,  'It is up to you what you would like to do, this is just the environment I want to have for myself.  It is not right or wrong it is simply what I want in my house, and I believe it is for your benefit too, but what you do about it is your choice'

I feel like firm boundaries that if crossed result in less interaction, not more, and specific work-related consequences, reduce the level of issues.  I agree with you it would be healthy for him to move out when he is able to, and probably to his benefit not to be too comfortable at home.

My dd's are also much more willing to hear a rule if they truly believe it to be for their benefit.  "If I make it too comfortable here it really does not help you, it is a trap.  I do not want you to be trapped.  " 

I hope you are able to find a way to be at peace and in a situation you are not deeply resenting.  What your son does, is really his problem.  Congrats to him on graduating college, that is something he can be proud of, and you can remind him of perhaps.

 

[Mirsa]

Hi there,

first of all, I hope you don't feel like a failure because your son is choosing to not get help and move forward with his life.  It sounds as though he's had more than enough opportunities and invitations to do so. 

I am in the tough-love camp.  I think that as parents, we do have the right to happiness, and love and support can be provided in many ways.  It does not necessarily mean that our adult children need to be living in our homes.  Since my DD17 daughter has moved out a few months ago, my home was magically and instantly transformed into a place of peace and serenity, where my younger DD and myself can thrive.  For the first time in many years, we are both happy and free from the constant fear, drama, criticism, etc. that the BPD unleashes at home.  I didn't realize how important this was to me until I got it and I thank the heavens every day for this opportunity.  The constant stress of living with her was taking a toll on me, at my job, in every corner of my life.  I'm sure it would have eventually affected my health as well.

Maybe you could consider helping him move into a studio apartment or even a hotel and pay the lease for three months, and tell him you love him, will help him, but he needs his own living space.  The next time he crashes, he will have to figure it out. 

I see from others' opinions that I may be in the minority opinion on this, but I've come to the conclusion that my rescuing/enabling my DD does her, me and even my younger daughter, more harm than good.  It's been hard for me to accept that, and I know not rescuing her next time will be a challenge, but all my friends and family have strict instructions to remind me of my determination in the future in case I falter.

Hugs and best wishes to you. 

[livednlearned]

He will likely respect you more when there are clear boundaries, altho getting there is often no picnic.

A boundary is a limit you set for yourself, it's different than an ultimatum.

An ultimatum is "either you do x or I will do y." It escalates things.

A limit is, "I will not be yelled or threatened -- it makes it hard for me to focus and think and respond the way I want to. I will go into another room/call someone for help/leave the house when I feel frightened. When I cool my jets I will be in a better state of mind to talk."

Everything is phrased in terms of setting limits for your own physical and emotional safety.

Do you want him to move out?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Swimmy55]

HI There,
I really truly like the idea of  paying for his first 3 months of rent somewhere else.

 You hit the nail on the head- I could more effectively help him if he were out of my space.  But you know, $$, and him not having a job... .that would mean I'd have to apply for his apartment on top of where I'm living now.  My credit score would go down to a 1.  What to do after the three months... then there is this troubling thought I can't shake - there is something else going on besides the BPD with him, I am certain of it.  No diagnosis on this new potential monster that is starting to rear its head .  It may just be the pot/ booze, but maybe not...

However, this is something I can at least research and make a pros/ cons list to.
I mean it would be one thing if he was getting treatment, I'd be happy to help him out by having him stay on for a while.  But this... .too much.    I dreaded him coming home from college almost 2 years ago at 22.  Now he's 24, I am done.
Thanks ,

[Swimmy55]

That is it- I resent the hell out him not getting help and floundering at my expense.  There.  I said it... .Thanks for allowing me to.

[Lollypop]

Hi schwimmy

I was filled to the brim of resentment. I couldn’t let it go for years. It hindered me because I couldn’t get past it.

Reading about BPD calmed me down, I saw that he couldn’t help the way he behaved.

Then I wanted him in treatment. But he wouldn’t go. I slipped easily into that mode of thinking I could lead him there. The fact is they need to be fully committed to treatment. My son resisted and full of fear. The more I pushed or pulled the more he did. I had to break this cycle.

I reasoned then he had to work. Again, I was maneouvring. It wasn’t working.

Faced with a 24 year old druggy, living in my house, barely speaking and depressed and anxious - what could I do?

The cold light of day woke me up. I either let this situation carry on or I had to find a way to change it for myself. I stopped having any expectations of him - he couldn’t look after himself. I just wasn’t prepared to fund him and his lifestyle choices anymore but I was scared as hell he’d end up dead if I kicked him out. I knew from 3 previous attempts to live away from home he downward spiralled. It was like I’d got  a sick baby animal. I had no faith in his abilities.

A boundary for me is based on my core values and beliefs. . I will not be hit. Boundaries need to be 6ft thick concrete and always with consequences. They are a BIG deal so my advice is to choose wisely because you have to follow through with enforcing it. My son is quiet BPD so doesn’t rage and I was safe. Boundaries protect you from harm and you keep your values.

Limits relate to say to small stuff. They are flexible and make life more pleasant. These helped me. I’d been rubbish at getting my son to do anything so I was made sure I was fair. I didn’t have too many - no smoking in the house, no drugs in the house. No shouting (that was a limit I set for myself to stop!). Limits can work both ways.

Free Bed, board.
No expectation.
No money.
FAIR.

Open hearted, warm and loving.

I was patient, I knew something would have to change. He had to make the next move. Something would cause him to.

I got to work here on my skills to better interact. Son24, now 28 responded positively and slowly. By week 4, he had used up all his favours with his mates for cigarettes and weed. He saw the light. He had to help himself.

It’s our job to raise adults. It’s tine scheimmy to let go of your own emotions (I know it’s not easy when they’re living with you).

I had to get practical, clever, strategic and calm. I was allowing his non functioning behaviours to perpetuate in my house - I had to indirectly approach it. My BPD son couldn’t cope with too many rules, choices, talk, questions - he wasn’t well. I got light as a fairy but gave no money.

Resentment goes when we can accept that they cannot change. We have to become the parent they need. I look back now at how I felt then - so lost. We’re here for schwimmy.

LP

Ps. I love your last post. We can say what we want here. Let it roll schwimmy. We have to vent and the best place is here - not in the kitchen!

[Swimmy55]

Powerful. I actually have to sit with this  and process. 
Thankyou

[Mirsa]

Good luck Swimmy.  I completely relate to that feeling of resentment.  It's so frustrating!  I also agree, I have to think about what are MY limits and MY boundaries.  What will I do and not do?  What is acceptable for me and my home and my life?  Sadly, that means that my 17 yo daughter having a sexual relationship with a 21 yo in my home was NOT acceptable, so she moved out and now we are estranged.  But, I feel this was a reasonable limit, and remaining 15yo daughter appreciated me holding the line on this and keeping our home comfortable and safe.   It hasn't been easy to think about what my limits are, but I realized she is not going to change, so I should not stop waiting for that to happen. 

Resentment?  Check.

[Swimmy55]

Well, last night he got into a rage, pushed open my closed bedroom door and pushed me off balance where I fell on the floor.  I grabbed the phone , he grabbed it out my hand and threw it against the wall breaking it.  So I called the police from my cell phone while he ranted out of the bedroom and I
locked the door behind him.
You know the routine- the police didn't find him suicidal or homicidal in spite of what happened.
What I have done this morning is left a note for him stating his choice is going to therapy or I have to start eviction of him from the premisis and I would be willing to pay for something of my choosing for 2 months for him to live in.  According to my readings here , it may be manipulative , but in my mind I want to give him every chance before having to get him out. I just can't live with violence.

[smallbluething]

hi Swimmy

That sounds terrible (the rage) and I hope your note works and gets some kind of response. Either outcome would be an improvement for you I guess. Let us know how it goes.

[Mirsa]

Hi Swimmy,

I hope you are okay.  Please take care of yourself and stay safe.  Violence is never okay.  You deserve a safe home.  I hope you can take steps to make your home a safe haven for yourself,

Mirsa

[livednlearned]

What I have done this morning is left a note for him stating his choice is going to therapy or I have to start eviction of him from the premisis and I would be willing to pay for something of my choosing for 2 months for him to live in.  According to my readings here , it may be manipulative , but in my mind I want to give him every chance before having to get him out.

There is nothing manipulative about what you are suggesting, Swimmy55. It sounds like a boundary. "I will not tolerate violence. I am willing to support you if you are in therapy to learn skills for managing anger. I am also willing to pay for 2 months rent in a place I can afford until you get on your feet if you choose to not go to therapy. After that, you are responsible for supporting yourself."

People with BPD often need others to have boundaries because their emotional dysregulations are so powerful. He won't like the boundary and will invariably test it (sometimes called an extinction burst).

What expectations do you have for how he will respond when you introduce this new boundary?

[Only Human]

I am locking this thread because it has reached its length limit. The post originator is welcomed to open a continuation thread on this topic.  Have a great day.