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Author Topic: Brother’s visit – Anxiety – Why?  (Read 648 times)
Libra
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« on: February 05, 2019, 05:31:55 AM »

Hi,

A few weeks ago, DH answered our landline while I was out. It was my mother. She was simultaneously in a skype chat with my brother, who lives abroad. He was thinking about coming over with his kids (18 and 17 years old) in June to do some music festivals here. My mother wanted to know if they could stay with us, to cut travel costs. DH said that in itself he didn’t see any reason why not, but that he wanted to check with me first, just to be sure. My mother tried to pressure DH into agreeing there and then, so she could tell my brother she had sorted it all out. He calmly iterated that he’d check with me and that I’d be in touch.
The following day I texted directly to my brother that they were very welcome to stay with us and that we were looking forward to their visit. He said thanks and he’d be in touch as soon as he had booked flights and knew more. We didn’t  tell  our children anything yet, because nothing seemed really definite.
Last weekend D9 spent some time with my mother. Afterwards, D9 started asking if she could learn English by June, so she could communicate with her niece and nephew.   
My mother had told D9 everything was planned and ready, and that they would be staying at our place. Huh?
So yesterday, I texted my brother again to get more info. He replied with his flight numbers. I asked him whether they were still planning to pitch a tent in our garden, or maybe stay in the guestroom after all. I said it would be handy to know so we could set everything up accordingly. He answered evasively with ‘Whatever suits you guys best’. After repeating that the choice was up to them, he said he’d talk it over with his kids and get back to me.
Last night I had a nightmare. It is vague now, as I have trouble remembering any dreams. But the gist of it was that my brother, mother and me where together somewhere. Something was not to the liking of my brother. He said so and they both left. In the dream,  I felt very responsible, and completely horrible. Then I woke up, heart racing. It took me a while to get back to sleep. In my brother’s defense: the way he acted in the dream is completely out of character, he is very flexible and absolutely not demanding in any way.
This morning I realized the dream probably indicates that I am already anxious for their visit, which is only in June!
From the previous, sporadic visits my brother and his children made over the past years, I remember them staying over at my mother’s apartment. I remember them visiting our place frequently. Me going over the top to have everything clean and neat (not for my brother, his house is dirty and complete chaos, but so my mother could be ‘proud’ ). I remember trying to connect to a brother who is unreachable. I remember my mother owning our house. Letting herself and them in, showing off how well she knows where everything is, overruling us in every sense as the actual owners/inhabitants.
Ugh… I can just feel my neck and shoulders tensing up while writing this!
I don’t know how it will go in June. It can’t be the same. I don’t want it to be the same. My mother is a guest. She seems to realize this now, when she visits. But I don’t know what will happen when my brother joins the mix. She will want to show off. And I don’t know how I can stop that from happening without causing a great deal of distress and possibly a raging session. I want to avoid that when my brother is visiting. It has been at least 3 years since I’ve seen him. I don’t want to ruin that with my mother’s issues!
I also do not understand why my brother cannot communicate with us directly. Maybe he didn’t get the chance because my mother beat him to it? Maybe he is just as insecure as me and thinks they’re not really welcome? I don’t know.
I went to my osteopath yesterday. My body is still recuperating from my illness last year. My liver is blocked, my ribcage is over sensitive, my back and neck are blocked. I had been in doubts about going, worried that I was exaggerating and over-sensitive. She chided me for waiting too long. She asked me to listen to my body more. I thought I had been doing just that. 
I need a lot of rest, but also a lot of movement. I’ve taken up swimming again since December. I will be trying to up the frequency.
What can I do to avoid this anxiety? How can I consciously and subconsciously let go? Logically I know I can’t control what will happen, so why am I all in knots about it?

Thank you for reading and for any advice,

 

Libra.

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« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2019, 07:47:54 PM »

Hi Libra!
Excerpt
I don’t know how it will go in June. It can’t be the same. I don’t want it to be the same. My mother is a guest.
It won't be the same because you are different now and have learned news ways to respond and won't react in the same ways.  Your mom may revert to old behaviors, but that is not within your control, right?

Excerpt
I want to avoid that when my brother is visiting. It has been at least 3 years since I’ve seen him. I don’t want to ruin that with my mother’s issues!
I understand the feelings here and the fear and anxiety.  The fact is though that if your mother acts out she acts out and it will be her who ruined the visit with her son, not you.

Will you set things up so that you have some time alone with your brother and his kids?  Is that a possibility?

Excerpt
I also do not understand why my brother cannot communicate with us directly.
I don't know either.  Is there any reason you can't leave your mom out on your end of things and talk directly to him.  Say "Thanks Mom, I will talk to bro about this directly".  Set the stage now with the both of them if you can.  Or am I missing something?

Excerpt
What can I do to avoid this anxiety? How can I consciously and subconsciously let go? Logically I know I can’t control what will happen, so why am I all in knots about it?
I am not sure what you can do to avoid it.  You can go to your osteopath, swim, use mindfulness, post here, walk, start setting boundaries with your mom and brother now (no more mom as the middle man!) to cope and deal with it.

Give yourself a break.  There is not much logic to our emotions and how we react to longstanding triggers and behaviors of our own and others.  Of course you feel anxious.  It is normal... .but hold on to the fact that you are different and things will not be the same and just keep reminding yourself that if your mom acts out, that is about her.  She will be who she is and so will your brother.

  
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Libra
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« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2019, 05:33:01 AM »

Hi Harri,

Thank you for your reply.
You are right of course, I cannot change the way they will act, and that is on them.
I have been reaching out to my brother directly. But the news or question still trickles down to me via my mother before I know I should reach out. My brother won't initiate direct contact himself. I know, it is what it is, but it is still Cursing - won't cause site restrictions at Starbucks (click to insert in post) annoying.

I guess I'm not really convinced I've changed? It sometimes feels as if I'm trying to pedal away from my family interactions as far and as fast as possible, but that I forgot to untie the huge elastic band that's still around my waist. It still doesn't feel as if I'm in control. I've said it here before, I sometimes feel as if I'm avoiding rather than setting boundaries. I guess June will be a good test to see how much I have or haven't changed.

Libra.
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« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2019, 04:53:17 PM »

Excerpt
My brother won't initiate direct contact himself. I know, it is what it is, but it is still annoying.
  Yep, it would bother me too. 

Excerpt
I guess I'm not really convinced I've changed? It sometimes feels as if I'm trying to pedal away from my family interactions as far and as fast as possible, but that I forgot to untie the huge elastic band that's still around my waist.
What a great visual description for how detaching emotionally feels.  It is so hard to take that freedom.  You can and will detach that band though, regardless of what your family may do. 


Excerpt
It still doesn't feel as if I'm in control. I've said it here before, I sometimes feel as if I'm avoiding rather than setting boundaries. I guess June will be a good test to see how much I have or haven't changed.
Libra, boundaries are tricky.  Good on-target boundaries feel uncomfortable and will test us on multiple levels.  Sometimes what is a good boundary does not work so well for us so we have to try a different way. 

Also, sometimes I think my newness with boundaries would get in the way of me setting a boundary and feeling okay with it.  For example, there is a difference between not saying something because we are walking on eggshells and not saying something because it is private and personal and we know our pwBPD can not be trusted.  I would set a boundary for myself on what I would share and then feel like I was being dishonest, selfish and passive aggressive by not sharing stuff.  It takes times to sort it out.

Can I suggest you don't look at the visit in June as a test but rather an opportunity to see what might need to be tweaked and what still needs some work?

  
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« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2019, 08:15:50 AM »

Hi libra Welcome new member (click to insert in post)

Considering your past experiences, I do understand where your feelings of anxiety come from, especially considering the current behavior you are witnessing from your family-members.

It still doesn't feel as if I'm in control.

It might help to ask yourself some questions:
1. What is it that you are trying to control? Are you trying to control your own behavior or are you trying to control your family-members' behavior?
2. Do you feel like you in some way are still letting yourself be controlled by your family-members through that invisible elastic band tied around your waist? If so, why do you think that elastic band still has such a hold on you? Is it just that the elastic band has a hold on you or are you yourself perhaps also holding on to that band?
3. Boundaries are about protecting ourselves and putting our own well-being first. Do you have a clear picture for yourself of why you are setting boundaries and what it is you are trying to protect by enforcing/defending those boundaries?

Take care

The Board Parrot
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« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2019, 05:52:45 AM »

Harri,

Thank you for your belief in me, it is heart-warming.  

You are right, boundaries are tricky, slippery things. Your example is right on.
I have a hard time discerning the difference between not doing something because I lack the correct techniques to handle it correctly, and setting a boundary. Shouldn’t I simply be able to cope with her behavior instead of going LC to avoid that behavior?  I guess that’s just another way to be too hard on one’s self, but it is a question I still struggle with.

I have a recent example that may be better in relaying what I mean:
I’m in LC with my mother. She only visits to stay in touch with the children, really. I popped in at her apartment on my own a while back for a chat, because that’s what other people do with their mums and, well, why not? We talked about the children, and I listened to her stories for a while. The following week, I regretted having popped in, because she started texting me several times a day for updates on the children and little what-nots. Nothing mind-blowing, nothing emotionally loaded, but it was still too much for me, and I had to focus and work hard to answer lightly and to the point and avoid it going overboard. It subsided after a couple of days, and it left me wondering why I just do NOT want to chit-chat with her at all. Is that a healthy boundary? Or is that unnecessary avoidance out of fear and mistrust?

Much to process again. Thank you for this brain-food.

How have you been doing, Harri

Libra.
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« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2019, 05:56:56 AM »

Kwamina,

Thank you for your time and for your thought-provoking questions.

1. I think I am trying to control my reactions to my family members’ behavior. I do not want to react. To be honest, I wish I was immune to anything they might say or do. I am afraid of being hurt by them again. Nothing cuts me as deep as any perceived criticism or slight from their part. Ugh…it’s hard to admit this.

2. This question one came in as a blow. I have accepted that I cannot expect much in the sense of love or validation from my mother. But I think I am still hoping for a pat on the back, a hug - anything really - from my brother. I need some validation, some confirmation that I’m not all bad, selfish, abandoning my FOO, etc… I know I should not expect this, I know it is not my brothers’ job to give this, but still, the need is there. So yes, I guess I’m holding on to that elastic band, because it feels inhumane and wrong to sever it, and because I still hope it will give back something positive and warm.

3. I want to protect myself from unwarranted accusations or attacks on my self-worth. I want to avoid being an emotional dumping ground. And I want to avoid being triangulated during my brothers’ visit. I can easily get backed into an emotional corner with both of them around. I know I am not simply myself around them. I’m hypervigilant, trying to come over as cool, funny and relaxed, while I am none of those. Trying to do that in my own house, with my husband and children around, is utterly confusing.

Thank you wise Parrot, you have given me loads to think about and to try to work on. Where to begin?



Libra.
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« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2019, 07:30:05 AM »

Hi  Welcome new member (click to insert in post)

So, my brother is still planning his visit to our country in June. I have been asked, via my mother, whether they can stay with us. I have contacted my brother directly to tell him he is very welcome, and to let me know his concrete plans so we can accommodate. My children are so looking forward to seeing their niece and nephew, they are now trying to learn English, and I was really looking forward to seeing my brother again after so many years, and of spending some time together.

Recently, my mother told me that my brother has asked her to plan out things to do for him and his kids while they are here. She has been busy buying tickets and scouring the internet for things to do. As always, I have been omitted from the loop of communications and the planning. I still don’t know whether my brother will be staying with us, nor if he plans on doing anything with me or my family. The tickets that have already been bought are just for my mother, my brother and his children.

I have been feeling very hurt. I was swung back in time, being the little girl that was unseen, unheard, and always feeling left out. A negative voice in my head has been berating me for everything and anything these past few days. I managed to isolate that voice for the very first time. I am trying my darnest not to listen to it any more. I have hugged the little girl that felt so left out and alone, and I have realized that I am no longer that little girl. I am an adult now and I have the right to choose my own path. I can be compassionate for others, but I do not have to be responsible for their emotions. I can reach out to my brother, but I also have to respect his actions. Whether he chooses to include me in this planning and his stay here or not does not say anything about me as a person. It is a choice he will make.

I will reach out to him one more time, to suggest doing something together. That way he knows we are open to any suggestions, irrespective of what my mother may or may not have said to him. And that will be it. I am no longer holding my breath, I am done hoping for more. I will live my life and give love and compassion to those I feel safe to give to. I will be fully 'there' for my husband, my children and my friends. And that will be enough. I will leave my past behind. I choose not to be the victim anymore.

Thank you to all here on these boards for sharing, for listening and for your unbiassed support. It means so much.



Libra.
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« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2019, 04:30:13 PM »

Hi.   

Excerpt
1. I think I am trying to control my reactions to my family members’ behavior. I do not want to react. To be honest, I wish I was immune to anything they might say or do. I am afraid of being hurt by them again. Nothing cuts me as deep as any perceived criticism or slight from their part. Ugh…it’s hard to admit this.
It is okay to admit.  I feel the same way.  I don't want to react but I do.  Not the same way I used to though but still.  I react, then I center myself and I respond accordingly.  Sometimes i can't get to center and the best thing I can do is recognize it and work on diffusing my reactions... .not the emotions.  By that I mean not making things worse for me by acting in ways that hurt me or go against my values.

Let's see what others say works for them.

2.  It is okay to want a pat on the back from your brother.  And it is okay to hurt knowing you will not get it.  It is also okay that he is not at a place where he can give it to you.  It all hurts and sucks. 

3.  Keep working on differentiation of self.  Being able to see your value apart from other peoples opinions and what they say and how they treat you is a goal for many of us.  We have all learned to look outside of us for approval, acceptance, love, validation.  It is okay to get it in safe, loving and supportive environments to a certain point ( here, therapy).  But outside of that?  Your mother and brother are not capable of giving that to you.  That is not because of a flaw with you, it is simply how they are.  And yeah, it still hurts and sucks. 



Excellent job cutting out the middle man Libra!  If your bother and mother want to use a go between, let them.  You stay out of it (remember the Karpman drama triangle).

So wait, you will have your brother, his kids and your mom staying with you?  wow, that is a lot of company.

I would feel left out too if all the plans were made without including me.  I am sorry your mom is doing that (we don't know your brother is involved right?) 

Excerpt
I have hugged the little girl that felt so left out and alone, and I have realized that I am no longer that little girl. I am an adult now and I have the right to choose my own path. I can be compassionate for others, but I do not have to be responsible for their emotions. I can reach out to my brother, but I also have to respect his actions. Whether he chooses to include me in this planning and his stay here or not does not say anything about me as a person. It is a choice he will make.
Yes.   

Thanks you for sharing all this and trusting us too.  There are no shoulds or should nots when it comes to feelings Libra. 
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« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2019, 07:14:11 AM »

I called my mum today. Things are not moving in the direction I would hope.
After some chitchat from me and the usual complaints on her day to day life (I didn’t offer solutions, simply listened, did not feel up to validating though), she moved on to her favorite snide remarks: “well, I’m glad you’ve called, I could be laying dead here for weeks for all you care” (I didn’t bite) “Oh no, that’s true, you brother would know. He calls me every day” (nope, not gonna bite!).
So then she turned on to my brothers’ visit: "They’re just going to sleep over at your place you know, you’ve got more space. But they won’t be bothering you. Once they are up, they can drive over to my place to have breakfast and we can move on from here. Nobody’s ever home at your place anyhow.” (So no Harri, my mum is staying in her apartment, which is a 15’ drive away). I told her they were more than welcome to have breakfast at our place, they would have free range of the house anyhow.  I also said I was considering taking some time off then, because I was looking forward to seeing my brother and spending some time with him. She did not react. I don't know if she really heard.
I texted my brother earlier today to ask if they’d like to do something together while he is here. I’ve had no reply so far. He probably has to check in with mum to know how far he can go without rocking her boat too much.
I don’t really know what else I can do to convey I’d like to spend some time together, without turning it into a tug-of-war?
The chances I’ll get any quality time with my big brother seem very slim though.
Trying to let it go now. I did what I could, I think?

Thank you Harri, for telling me it's okay to feel all these emotions, to accept them, and to try to understand them. I need to be reminded of that, a lot.  



Libra.
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« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2019, 10:24:19 PM »

Excerpt
I don’t really know what else I can do to convey I’d like to spend some time together, without turning it into a tug-of-war?
The chances I’ll get any quality time with my big brother seem very slim though.
Trying to let it go now. I did what I could, I think?
I can't think of anything more you can do or say at this point.  Leave it be, but remember, your brother is caught up in the dysfunction that is your mother... .plus he has his own stuff.   I'm not saying that to excuse him but to give context and hopefully give you a tool you can use to remind yourself that his actions and choices have very little to do with you.  They still suck, and I am sure it hurts.  It has little to do with you.

One other thing that keeps running through my head is that you are hearing things second hand through your mom.  Is there a chance she is distorting some of this stuff when she tells you about it?  Just putting it out there.  Regardless, in a perfect world he would be talking directly with you.

  
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« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2019, 02:18:17 PM »

 Welcome new member (click to insert in post)

Time for an update. I finally had a reply from my brother. He apologized for not replying earlier, he and his children all had the flu.
He definitely wants to do something together. So we've planned an outing together one afternoon.  

I know I hear everything second hand from my mother, and I don't know if there's any distortion or not. Not much I can do about that though, except letting it go... .

Thank you for your listening ear and your support,

 

Libra.
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« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2019, 10:11:29 PM »

Wait?  How did I miss seeing this excellent news?

I am so happy for the both of you Libra!   

 
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« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2019, 11:46:20 PM »

She will want to show off.

what sorts of things does she typically do? what are you expecting she might do?
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« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2019, 08:32:54 AM »

Hi OR,

Thank you for your question.
I’ve been trying to find words to describe what I fear will happen, but I can’t really grasp it. It is more a general feeling of being overriden or ignored than it would be any clear action from her part.
That leaves me wondering if the problem isn’t with me rather than with her. Maybe I should simply be more tolerating, more zen?

Usually, when she visits us together with other relatives, her behaviour towards me becomes less polished, as if she no longer tries to be polite, considerate, ‘normal’. She just barges over everything:
- She will use the spare key she has to let herself and visitors into our home instead of ringing the doorbel.
- She will talk over me, interrupting whatever I am saying with her own opinion or experience, not adressing me, but the person I would be talking to.  
- She will act as if she owns the place: offering coffee or other things, fetching those things out of the cupboards, without ever consulting me or DH.
- She will comment on anything and everything, quite harshly and negatively, wanting to show off how well she knows us and our daily lives. Mostly she is wide off the mark with her comments, but I am tired of correcting her, and she doesn't hear me anyhow.

My mother was over at our place yesterday. She cleaned her car on our driveway. She complained that the new cupboard we’re still working on to store the vacuum cleaner and other cleaning utensils was worthless and very unhandy. Her back was aching and she was exhausted from cleaning her car. Every move she made went with a sigh, an ‘auch’, an ‘ooh’….it drives me up the walls! I know I am too focussed on these little things of hers. It took all my focus to stay detached and not get all worked up.  I need to work on that. I don’t know why I tend to react so strongly.

My brother called her while she was with us. She got all flustered. Muttered that he knew she was not home and simply did not reply. He called again. I asked her why she simply didn’t answer, so she did. She couldn’t talk though, to conscious of me being in the room as well. So after a minute of chitchat, my brother hung up. I am clearly not meant to hear - let alone partake in - those conversations.

By the time my mother went home yesterday evening, I was stuck in a negative energy. She did nothing specifically bad or attacking. She was ‘good’ (sounds as if I’m talking about a toddler, or a dog  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)).  
But still, I felt the urge to hurt or demean myself physically and mentally after she was gone. I managed to identify this feeling for the first time. I only get to that mental place if I’ve been in touch with my FOO.
I am tired of feeling out-of-place. I am tired of managing my reactions to her. I am tired of practicing grey rock with her. I honestly wish sometimes that she was just no longer part of my life.

Clearly, I have many issues left to work on.

Libra.

P.S.: Thank you Harri. Fingers crossed. 
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« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2019, 06:16:04 PM »

Excerpt
But still, I felt the urge to hurt or demean myself physically and mentally after she was gone. I managed to identify this feeling for the first time. I only get to that mental place if I’ve been in touch with my FOO.
This part of your post caught my eye and my heart.     I am glad you were able to catch this.  That is quite the accomplishment!     That feeling sucks though.  Why do you think you caught it this time?  What was different?  What do you mean when you say you would feel the urge to hurt or demean yourself?  For me it would be eating or depriving myself of something I enjoy... and of course a lot of demeaning and hateful self-talk. 

  

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« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2019, 12:40:56 AM »

Hi Harri,

Yes, it is a move forwards, isn't it?   
Now to stop following through with the urge and put a halt to that ugly voice. 

What was different?
I think I used to be in that state almost constantly. Now I feel more at home with and within myself.
I used to push away any feelings that would start to well up, out of fear of losing control, I think. Now, I try to allow those feelings to come up, and I try to understand them. It is somewhat like looking at a 3D image in my mind, turning it this way and that, exploring it. I can't always link words to those images, but at least I acknowledge they are there, and I try not to judge them.

I use(d) food a lot as well! I still can't suppress bingeing a bit when I'm feeling very stressed or anxious. I know what I' doing and why, but I can't (yet) stop myself.
Unfortunately, I often used real physical pain as well. It was a way to replace the upcoming emotions with something real and manageable. It feels as if you're in control then, but you really aren't. It is a very temporary relief. It nibbles at your self-worth, inch by inch. A person that loves and respects him/herself does not revert to damageing that same self.

 

Libra.
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« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2019, 12:12:05 PM »

Excerpt
I used to push away any feelings that would start to well up, out of fear of losing control, I think. Now, I try to allow those feelings to come up, and I try to understand them. It is somewhat like looking at a 3D image in my mind, turning it this way and that, exploring it. I can't always link words to those images, but at least I acknowledge they are there, and I try not to judge them.
This is great to read.  It is good that you are able to stop for pushing them away.  I still struggle with that sometimes as it has been such an ongoing automatic thing for me.  As for not having the words, I think that is okay.  If you want to push it a bit I wonder if drawing or some sort of art work would help... just let the drawing (or whatever) flow and see what happens.

Boo on eating my feelings!  I eat sometimes to the point of being sick and I don't mean sick to my stomach (aka nauseated!)... I go beyond that.  Given my health issues, it is serious.  Part of the reason I got my butt back in therapy.   Care to share more of what you do?  Not required though.  Whatever you are comfortable with.

Excerpt
It feels as if you're in control then, but you really aren't. It is a very temporary relief. It nibbles at your self-worth, inch by inch. A person that loves and respects him/herself does not revert to damageing that same self.
Exactly.  I keep telling myself that me pushing my feelings away does nothing for keeping me from falling apart... I am already falling apart and in ways that are neither productive nor healing so why not choose the one I may be most scared of but I know will lead to something good?

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« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2019, 09:51:14 PM »

Maybe I should simply be more tolerating, more zen?

im sure it would help. itd be great for all of us if it were that easy. and if it were someone other than your mother, it probably would be.

she reminds me a bit of my grandma. my grandma drove my mom absolutely crazy with that sort of stuff, in my moms home. its like an inability to show respect for your space.

certainly, i would choose your battles. take each kind of incident you describe. ask, if this were someone you were less close to, what are the big violations, the stuff youd really want to nip in the bud, and what are the ones that are just super annoying?

for example, allowing visitors in my home would be a big no no. talking over me and interrupting me, i could work around that.
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« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2019, 05:46:27 AM »

Harri,

I do not think I have a creative or artful bone in my body.   Maybe it’s all still locked up somewhere deep inside.

Good for you for seeing you were going in the wrong direction and for steering yourself back to therapy. I have a hard time admitting I took a wrong turn and might need help in finding the right way to move forward again.

It does sound serious though. I have an unhealthy relationship towards my physical body. It is a necessary ‘thing’. I get annoyed with its limitations,  I ignore it’s signals of distress. I’m trying to work on this. I know you know what I also know: self-care is important! This includes our physical bodies, Harri. They are our true home. They deserve respect. They are worth taking care of.

What do you mean with falling apart? What do you fear would happen? 

 

Libra.
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« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2019, 05:58:33 AM »

Hi OR,

Excerpt
its like an inability to show respect for your space.
Yes. That is it exactly!

I know I am a lot more tolerant with my friends. None of them ever give me the feeling of invading my space as my mother does.
I think it is this piled up history we share. I suspect I will remain hyper-sensitive to her as long as I haven’t worked through everything that keeps bubbling back up after her visits.

I am also still unable to set a boundary by asking her not to do something. Take the key thing for example. Both grandmothers have a key to our house, in case of emergencies. My mother always lets herself in with that key. My MIL will never do that. She will use the doorbell, even if the visit is expected. This has always bugged me. I am still way to afraid to tell my mother that though.

Thank you for letting me put on my thinking-cap.

Libra.
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« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2019, 07:50:34 AM »

That leaves me wondering if the problem isn’t with me rather than with her. Maybe I should simply be more tolerating, more zen?

Usually, when she visits us together with other relatives, her behaviour towards me becomes less polished, as if she no longer tries to be polite, considerate, ‘normal’. She just barges over everything:
- She will use the spare key she has to let herself and visitors into our home instead of ringing the doorbel.
- She will talk over me, interrupting whatever I am saying with her own opinion or experience, not adressing me, but the person I would be talking to.  
- She will act as if she owns the place: offering coffee or other things, fetching those things out of the cupboards, without ever consulting me or DH.
- She will comment on anything and everything, quite harshly and negatively, wanting to show off how well she knows us and our daily lives. Mostly she is wide off the mark with her comments, but I am tired of correcting her, and she doesn't hear me anyhow.
 

Hi Libra,

I hear a lot of criticism, control and boundary busting in what you describe.  I think it is just the dance the two of you do and probably have done for a long time.  I was very much the same with my mom.  I don't think of it who's fault it is because truly it takes two to tango.

I don't see becoming more tolerant as the answer.  I can see acceptance as part of the answer and boundaries as another part of the answer.

Rather than tolerating abuse, accept that this is who she is, that she likely (without therapy) will not change.  Accept that these behaviors are her's, about her, and not about you and who you are. Do you think if you did everything that she thinks you should she would be happy...satisfied?  I think she would just find something else because that's what she does. Accept that her opinion is one opinion and that only one opinion does not define who you are or how good you are.  Do you think other people are able to see how intrusive, rude and over bearing she is when she does the things you describe?  I would notice it and I would recognize the problem person without you having to say a word.

My mom doesn't talk over me but will cut me off if she doesn't feel what I am saying is in some way inappropriate to her.  This used to really hurt my feelings but these days I can accept that this is who she is, that it isn't about me it is about her.  (She has complained to my brother that she just doesn't understand why she and I aren't close.) When she cuts me off now I think, how rude that is, and I think well there she goes again missing another opportunity to get to know her daughter because she won't listen. It doesn't hurt so much because I realize now that is who she is...she's worried about appearances it's not about me or what I'm trying to say at all.

The other piece for me is boundaries.  I would put a chain lock on the front door that you can lock from the inside for example, that way she can't just barge her way into the house or change the lock and don't provide her the new key.

My brother called her while she was with us. She got all flustered. Muttered that he knew she was not home and simply did not reply. He called again. I asked her why she simply didn’t answer, so she did. She couldn’t talk though, to conscious of me being in the room as well. So after a minute of chitchat, my brother hung up. I am clearly not meant to hear - let alone partake in - those conversations.

Being excluded is hurtful this would hurt my feelings too and has (my brother is my mother's golden child).  However, I also want to point out how juvenile it is...it's like the mean girls in Junior High School!  Again, this is what she does, she does it to make herself feel good...feel included it isn't about you at all other than it is at your expense which is why it hurts.  My mother's keeping up appearances is at my expense or our relationship's expense and that's why it hurts.  But for me it hurts less when I understand it and accept this is who she is and stop trying to change something that isn't going to change.

But still, I felt the urge to hurt or demean myself physically and mentally after she was gone. I managed to identify this feeling for the first time.

Great catch here!    

I am tired of feeling out-of-place. I am tired of managing my reactions to her. I am tired of practicing grey rock with her.

I hear you, it must be exhausting because you are trying to control her and her behaviors and at the same time trying to control yours.  How often are you in contact with your mom?  

Panda39
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« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2019, 09:32:30 AM »

Panel's experience with her mother is similar to mine. My mom isn't BPD but grew up with an uNPD/BPD stepmother, and my mom comes with a few acquired traits that aren't healthy (pouting and silent treatment, can be waifish). She is very concerned with appearances and can be judgemental. She can also be most but doesn't move into intrusive.

I keep a level of emotional distance between us. I've sometimes regretted that we don't have a closer mother/daughter relationship - but the times I've let her in, she goes too far into my business and then there's hurt feelings when I attempt to extricate. We live each other dearly - and we operate day-to-day by respecting a few boundaries. I am retired now, and at 90+, she is now living with us.

I think it's critical, as Panda says, to determine what you can and can't tolerate. She won't change. She can change some behaviors based on your boundaries - but overall, she won't change.

If you need a level of respect for privacy and property, that boundary might be the place to start. In all her current doings, where is the line on what you can accept/tolerate and what you can't?
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« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2019, 02:38:12 PM »

My comment about keeping from falling apart was my clumsy way of agreeing with what you said here:
Excerpt
It was a way to replace the upcoming emotions with something real and manageable. It feels as if you're in control then, but you really aren't. It is a very temporary relief. It nibbles at your self-worth, inch by inch. A person that loves and respects him/herself does not revert to damageing that same self.
that my coping strategies which I adopted to feel better and avoid getting upset, triggered, harmed (aka falling apart) are working against me now and have ben for a very long time.

What I always feared would happen is that I would not be able to get up again.  I needed to be okay.  I was still living with my parents in my mid 30's.  I could not take a day off and cry or get angry or do whatever.  I used to plan weekends away as if I could schedule my emotions.  So there I would be in a nice hotel room, ready to cry and do whatever... and ended up not letting any emotions out.  haha  I got a good night sleep though and got to take awesome showers in the luxury bathroom but other than that it was a total waste.  ha!  I also needed to work.  That was my life for a long time.  Home and work.  I was afraid if I let myself fall apart I would not be able to find me again.

About art work... it can be a simple freestyle doodle!  Color with your kids.  See what happens.  I am no artist. 
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« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2019, 05:40:57 AM »

Panda,

Thank you for your reply. I have to admit, I felt very defensive when I first read it.
As you well know, that has nothing to do with you or your reply, but everything with me.

Am I truly still trying to control my mother's behaviour? Probably yes, but I cannot see it (yet).
Maybe I am unconsciously still hoping we might someday truly connect.

The dynamics you describe with your mother and brother are indeed quite similar to those in my family.
My brother is also the Golden Child, and I am quite certain she has also complained to him about her relationship with me.
I have a hard time seeing that my mother cares about appearances. She has adamantly stated the opposite all of her life.
But that may well be a façade. I usually take her words at face value. My – former – T once said that I was truly very naïve on that point.

Changing the locks is not an option, they are quite new high-safety locks, and it’s a ‘one key fits all locks’ system.
I don’t mind her having the key. Ironically, she will actually never just let herself in when we’re not at home, that being too intrusive.
It’s the fact that she just doesn’t see the intrusiveness of letting herself in when we’re at home that’s so annoying.

I have been trying to take a step back and look at the bigger picture. I think I am struggling with the consequences of the changed dynamics.
I’ve tried to emotionally detach as much as possible. I try to no longer take on her emotions.
I know I no longer paint a brighter picture to overlay her negative one. Her picture is hers to paint.
The consequences are that I am no longer part of the dynamics. She has excluded me from all communications from/with my brother.
She does not share any ‘real’ information about her personal life anymore (health, friendships, etc.), only gossip and complaints.
She only comes to visit the children. DH and I are strange beings that she does not understand and cannot or will not communicate with.
She phones our children directly, and when they ask whether she also wants to talk to me, she says there’s no need.

As a child I was invisible as an individual, which left me feeling lonely and excluded.
The same thing is happening again now, but at a higher level: I am no longer of any use to her, and so I have become truly invisible, redundant.
This has brought up a lot of memories and emotions from the past that I thought I had long gotten over.
I need to get it into my thick skull that I no longer need my mother to feel whole.

Thank you, Panda. And good luck with the house-hunting.



Libra.
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« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2019, 05:42:56 AM »

Gagrl, Welcome new member (click to insert in post)

I manage the emotional distance most of the time.
I do still crave a closer bond now and then. I feel as if I have to ‘fight off’ this craving. I guess that’s not the healthiest way of dealing with that longing.
Our relationship has changed a lot over the past year. I can accept most of her current behaviours, most of the time.
The key-thing is very intrusive. Both for DH and me. I just really don’t know how to tell her not to do that without setting off a whole avalanche of abandonment fears that will strain the relationship. I don’t think I’m ready for such a confrontation. But will I ever be? Maybe I’m just sticking my head into the sand?

Thank you, Gagrl

Libra.
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« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2019, 05:44:06 AM »

Harri,

It may just as well have been my clumsy interpretation 

Excerpt
that my coping strategies which I adopted to feel better and avoid getting upset, triggered, harmed (aka falling apart) are working against me now and have ben for a very long time
.
That is truly a good thing though, isn’t it? It means you do  not really need those coping strategies any more. They have become a bad habit, instead of a survival technique. If you look at them from that angle, maybe you can try to replace them with other, healthier habits? (says the one with no nails or even fingers to speak of )

Excerpt
I was afraid if I let myself fall apart I would not be able to find me again.
Yep. I know that feeling. And so you just keep plodding on.
I’ve been thinking lately though: maybe it’s better to allow one’s self to fall apart? Maybe that’s a way to drop all that excess luggage and actually see the true you underneath? Strip back to the basics and build up from there? Just free-wheeling here. I’m no expert a letting go. 

Excerpt
About art work... it can be a simple freestyle doodle!  Color with your kids.  See what happens.  I am no artist.
I doodle all the time at work – especially during meetings.
I remember making a particularly nice doodle during a ridiculously long meeting. I continued the same doodle in following meetings, and ended up using it as a book marker.
My mother saw it at home and asked who had made such a nice drawing for me. She completely negated I had made it, literally saying ‘you can’t make anything that nice, you can’t even draw!’.
I have a hard time drawing or colouring with the kids. They are still in that ‘Wow…Mom is so great!’-phase, and love even the silliest thing I colour or draw. I have to bite my tongue not to negate their admiration. It makes me very uneasy.

What makes you believe you are not an artist, Harri? You are very good with words, for one. 

Libra.
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« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2019, 06:16:08 PM »

Yes, it is a good thing.  The old coping strategies don't work anymore... but <cue whine> it is hard to change and hard to work through the emotions that surround the behaviors and extend so deep that I am not aware of them and I keep going back to the same old same old.

haha  about my eating, long ago when I was normal weight but my mom called me fat she used to tell me Harri, instead of a cookie eat a piece of broccoli...   yeah, cuz thats the same mom.  Sorry, that has nothing to do with anything here it just makes me laugh to remember!  haha  Are you feeling down and depressed?  Have some broccoli! 

Excerpt
I’ve been thinking lately though: maybe it’s better to allow one’s self to fall apart? Maybe that’s a way to drop all that excess luggage and actually see the true you underneath? Strip back to the basics and build up from there? Just free-wheeling here. I’m no expert a letting go.
I think you hit the nail on the head Libra.  Your instincts are good at this stuff.  Oh hush... own it cuz it is true!    

That sounds like an awesome and complex doodle Libra!  I wish your mom were here right now and said that because I would, nicely of course, tell her she is wrong. 

Excerpt
They are still in that ‘Wow…Mom is so great!’-phase, and love even the silliest thing I colour or draw. I have to bite my tongue not to negate their admiration. It makes me very uneasy.
Awww, that is so sweet of you and them.   I think you should color with them more then.   Let them compliment you and you work on accepting the compliments without negating them while teaching them how to accept praise and admiration gracefully. 

What do you think?  If it helps, turn it around where you are helping them learn better ways of seeing the world and kindness and accepting them selves (?) in addition to not crushing them.

I say I am not an artist because the 'art' I do is cute.  Not elegant or anything and certainly not intelligent... but it makes me laugh.  I am pretty good with a crayon and coloring book though.  Stay in the lines and everything!
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« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2019, 09:59:25 PM »

Panda,

Thank you for your reply. I have to admit, I felt very defensive when I first read it.
As you well know, that has nothing to do with you or your reply, but everything with me.

That was not my intent 

Skip did something similar with me once, I got mad and had to really let it sit with me for awhile to push through the anger to ask my self why I was mad.  What was pushing my button...and then an "ah ha" moment 

Excerpt
I have been trying to take a step back and look at the bigger picture. I think I am struggling with the consequences of the changed dynamics.

You're probably right here, change can be hard and feel weird, it takes time to adjust to.  It's definitely complicated because to do what is healthy for you, to disengage from the negative behaviors and feelings it sounds like some of the positives are being withheld by your mother.  Punishment/emotional distance/exclusion/criticism no wonder you are having a hard time, anybody would if this was happening to them. She's being the "mean girl".

Excerpt
She phones our children directly, and when they ask whether she also wants to talk to me, she says there’s no need.

Wow...just wow. 

Excerpt
I need to get it into my thick skull that I no longer need my mother to feel whole.

I took me 47 years to get to that place.  It's hard when you have spent your entire life trying to please your mother, the adult that taught you what you know, your all knowing mother who knows everything.  The mother that first taught you what is good and what isn't...what does a daughter do when she is taught she isn't good...not good enough?

For me it was looking at all the people in my life that like and love me just the way I am warts and all...the numbers were stacked against my mom.  I also realized that her opinion is just one opinion and she could have it, but I could choose not to believe it!

Sending some compassion your way     This isn't easy stuff to sort through.

Hang in there 
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« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2019, 11:09:03 PM »

I had to reach the point I could admit, "My mother (father, at times) is not enough to complete me. "

So...what else exists at that point?

My relationships had not done it.

I had to go deep, deep inside my Self.

Still working on it, but I'm much closer than I was...
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« Reply #30 on: March 21, 2019, 11:54:27 AM »

Staff only

This thread has been locked as it has reached the post limits.  Part 2 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=335076.0
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